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Spirtz
03-20-2009, 04:46 PM
ok i think there needs to be some discussion about what to do with this gun. its come to the point where every tbd game, goon or not, people are complaining about this gun being over powered. today after playing with a group three people left to uninstall the game out of frustration because nothing they had could ever kill it. i think its obvious, and known, that 90% of the time if you use the Lazar you will be top on your team for kills. idk what should be done, but something i think should be. i personally use it too but am getting annoyed with its over use. what do you guys think?

DiogenesDog
03-20-2009, 04:52 PM
Sounds like people are overreacting, but yeah, it's pretty buff.

I'd perhaps start with... lowering damage slightly!? I know it's an unconventional approach, but sometimes you just have to be creative if you want to achieve true balance.

skywalker
03-20-2009, 05:45 PM
The laser is only dominant because the person who hosts the goon servers is dumb enough to set the maximum players to 34. In that case you just shoot your laser into the huge cloud of enemy planes and you'll get a kill or 2 no matter what.

However in "real" games the laser is pretty easy to counter. The miranda itself has low health, and if you shoot one from point blank or not from straight ahead you will easily kill it.

Also overall Miranda is an annoying plane to fight because it does not follow the laws of physics like the other 4 planes do.

Blank
03-20-2009, 05:51 PM
Eh... laser is a beast. Less than a second in a laser bath = dead loopy/miranda. Sit in it for the duration and you'll burn down biplanes and seriously **** up explodets/bombers (will kill them with bars if they don't have heavy armor IIRC).

What makes it so meaty IMO is it doesn't require aiming, kind of like loopy. You can "miss" the initial laser and just re-adjust and STILL get good damage. And the shot is instant, so any target that's in front of you *will* get hit. There's no need to account for distance and bullet travel time. The difference between Miranda and loopy is the loopy's damage is much lower (or spread out over a good amount of time), Miranda is like 1-2 seconds of pure rape damage.

And killing a miranda isn't exactly easy either. Low HP is one thing, but reverse + teleport makes catching one difficult... especially when you factor in other planes doing ****. Everyone going laser miranda is probably not smart, but a few doing behind the front lines bull**** is INCREDIBLY powerful. You simply charge the laser, get to the edge of combat and let loose... then reverse to safety while you regain health/recharge. Basically, you play it like a loopy except with much higher damage and better keep-away tools.

(EDIT) and it certainly helps that Miranda laser isn't reflected by shields. You can't even bank on them blowing themselves the **** up on shields for that extra damage you usually get with head to heads.

Steve
03-20-2009, 06:13 PM
The laser is only dominant because the person who hosts the goon servers is dumb enough to set the maximum players to 34. In that case you just shoot your laser into the huge cloud of enemy planes and you'll get a kill or 2 no matter what.

However in "real" games the laser is pretty easy to counter. The miranda itself has low health, and if you shoot one from point blank or not from straight ahead you will easily kill it.

Also overall Miranda is an annoying plane to fight because it does not follow the laws of physics like the other 4 planes do.
yes, setting the players high is what makes the weapon overpowered, not the fact that all it takes is one full runthrough with the laser to kill or heavily damage everything. There is no way, at all, ever, that only 2 people working together on one team as mirandas could wipe out any other number of people ever.

Spirtz
03-20-2009, 06:55 PM
any one have any good ideas on how to make it more balanced of a weapon? maybe increasing the time to charge by a sec or two?

Blank
03-20-2009, 07:12 PM
any one have any good ideas on how to make it more balanced of a weapon? maybe increasing the time to charge by a sec or two?

Lower damage- Obviously

Increase laser duration, keep (overall) damage the same- Force the Miranda to stay engaged with it's target longer so it eats more counterattack damage/spends more time exposed.

Front load damage, keep (overall) damage the same- Make the initial laser "burst" deal the bulk of the damage, make the continued burn deal less. Forces Miranda users to actually "aim" the shot and not "paint" the target.

Or any combination of the above.

Pillars
03-20-2009, 07:22 PM
My take is that the laser-Miranda is too powerful in any server type. It becomes even more ridiculous as player totals increase, just like the other AoE planes [Bomber especially, Explodet less so.]

The changes which unleashed the power of the laser:

Feb 24, 2009
energy regen is no longer halted while laser is active

Feb 27, 2009
miranda can now reverse with 0 energy...

The 1st change had the biggest laser-specific effect, while the 2nd change just increased the power level of the Miranda overall.

The 2nd change I actually like a lot as it removed the whole 'oh **** I just smashed my face into a wall because I didn't have the extra tick of energy I needed to reverse' issue. The 1st change is fine as well, I think, as it keeps the Miranda from feeling like a High Templar w/ no energy after finishing it's laser burst.

I'd probably favor a simple damage reduction for now, as that allows us to keep the 'fun' of the two changes above. I also wonder if the plane has a bit too much reach...could maybe fool around with [slightly] decreasing the length of the laser down the road.

Pillars
03-20-2009, 07:30 PM
Lower damage- Obviously

Increase laser duration, keep (overall) damage the same- Force the Miranda to stay engaged with it's target longer so it eats more counterattack damage/spends more time exposed.

Front load damage, keep (overall) damage the same- Make the initial laser "burst" deal the bulk of the damage, make the continued burn deal less. Forces Miranda users to actually "aim" the shot and not "paint" the target.

Or any combination of the above.
Not a fan of the 3rd change.

1.) Kinda un-intuitive...when people see a laser they expect constant, consistent damage. Also, you'd have to graphically represent the front-loaded damage somehow.

2.) I think painting the target is fun, and provides a different projectile 'type'. Aimed weapons should always deal more damage and be more energy efficient vs. single targets, though.

I actually like the 2nd suggestion a lot. As you mentioned earlier what makes the Miranda so strong now is that it can dish out an absurd amount of damage [with good range] in a short period of time then do an instant 180 and accelerate away from danger. Increasing the laser duration lets the Miranda keep its flexibility and sneakiness outside of combat but restricts that ability during combat [if it wants to keep streaming damage.]

Triped
03-20-2009, 07:49 PM
Shields not reflecting lasers is a bug, right? Anyway, just spread out laser damage over a longer period of time and/or slightly slow down Miranda's max speed while firing. Both would probably be too much.

Ferret
03-20-2009, 08:06 PM
Shields not reflecting lasers is a bug, right?

Probably not.

The damage should be toned down a little and maybe the width of the laser reduced so that it's less forgiving when waving it around or at least can't catch as many enemies at once. That or increase the time it takes to fully charge the laser, or a combination of the above.

A less direct way to balance might be to leave it as is, but completely take away long range shots while using the laser perk and if you fire a non-fully charged laser you get something incredibly weak and short like a blip of that crappy orange laser the miranda had in the last version. If you want to go crazy, maybe even proportional range and damage based on charge time.

I also like Blank's second suggestion, but I'd have it more towards half of damage in the initial shot the other half from dragging the laser around.

DiogenesDog
03-20-2009, 08:19 PM
My only issue with blank's suggestion is that it strips away part of what makes the laser unique and different from a standard projectile.

I really think range and possibly damage are the way to go.

Spirtz
03-20-2009, 09:34 PM
what do you think about just making it a 2 button charge make it a combination of f and d. i know this means no 180 but i think thats really the huge problem. its ability to just kill and run with no hope of retaliation. its just a suggestion.

argonide
03-20-2009, 11:36 PM
I'll just leave this here.
http://imgur.com/VIBL.jpg

Blank
03-20-2009, 11:45 PM
how did you manage a 10 multikill yet only 31 kills total to win a FFA... that's baffling.

ZellSF
03-20-2009, 11:53 PM
It was on the goon server, which means tons of players and a three minute time limit. No real relevance to any balance discussion imo. Personally I'm in favor of actually removing the laser and thinking of a new red perk for the miranda. On the other side I want the laser to stay because it means less people whining about bouncy shot miranda being overpowered.

TheCapedAvenger
03-21-2009, 04:09 AM
The laser damage should decrease with distance. How about scaling it by 1/r?

nesnl
03-21-2009, 04:41 AM
I think you should increase the distance by twice what it is now and then either change the laser to a huge cone of damage or just have 15-18 lasers that come out at once... possibly some in front, behind and some above and below. The damage should increase as a function of how long the laser is on the target... maybe something like (damage)*t^3.

Honestly, I think the best place to start is probably just tweaking the damage done by the laser down a slight bit. I think the biggest issue here is that people are making their opinions based on the 34 person "Goon" servers, but if you played Miranda in a regular game setting of 5-7 players per team, I think that most people would realize that it's not as overpowered as it seems.

skywalker
03-21-2009, 05:30 AM
I think the biggest issue here is that people are making their opinions based on the 34 person "Goon" servers, but if you played Miranda in a regular game setting of 5-7 players per team, I think that most people would realize that it's not as overpowered as it seems.

I agree with you (see my first post in this thread)
I would not use laser miranda in a game with 8 or less people...especially if they are good players.

Blank
03-21-2009, 06:15 AM
having never played on the Goon server, I can safely say nesnl is wrong.

Steve
03-21-2009, 06:39 AM
5-7what the **** fun is that

skywalker
03-21-2009, 04:51 PM
what the **** fun is that

It's fun because it takes real piloting skill, one-on-one. Have you tried it? Maybe we should kick you from PPP sometime so you can try it.

DevilsAdvocat
04-07-2009, 02:44 AM
It's fun because it takes real piloting skill, one-on-one. Have you tried it? Maybe we should kick you from PPP sometime so you can try it.

small FFA is fine, but small tbd bombing becomes a bit too easy

Phasma Felis
04-07-2009, 07:04 AM
What about making the laser non-piercing? It'd still be rough to dogfight against, but it wouldn't be able to sweep across a group for half a dozen kills anymore.

DevilsAdvocat
04-10-2009, 07:06 AM
laser has been nerfed, all of ur laser spamming worries are over