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nobodyhome
06-29-2010, 10:14 AM
Since this map was put into ladder, this map has had its share of haters, including receiving near last place in tgleaf's poll (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3589). Now that the dust has settled on this map, I'd like to know if the community still feels that this map is bad gameplay-wise.

Another issue is of course the pebble. Many people hate it, many people love it. I'd like to have it removed because it seems that fans of the pebble only like it because it serves as a "noob filter", giving hilarity to see people crash on it. However, I don't see this as a valid reason to keep it in--if anyone has reasons for why the pebble adds value to gameplay on this map other than as a noob filter please discuss it here.

Clapon
06-29-2010, 10:17 AM
I honestly dislike this map with the fiery passion of a thousand suns. leads to long tedious going no where games.

Goose
06-29-2010, 12:37 PM
Games due tend to be long on this map. I think the main problem is: the goal area tends to get jam packed with planes making for a giant spam fest of missiles and mines when on defense, and the close proximity to the spawning area makes it so even if planes are getting killed off reinforcements can keep swooping in very easily to add to the chaos.

It is a really strong map for whales, more so than a cave or grotto type map I believe. I don't really see any issue as to why the pebble should be removed, it's not that important of a gameplay element that it is changing the course of matches. Considering that the rest of the map is filled with rocky and jagged textures that make the ball bounce in weird angles, the pebble actually fits in more with the layout of the map than a completely smooth ground imo.

Overall i like the map, but it's not one of my favorites. Some games on it are fun, but some are boring and bad.. The map creates a lot of hilarity and epic moments because of the unpredictability of the ball bouncing off some weird jagged rock which is cool sometimes.. I think some tweaks to the map could make it better, but for the most part i'm fine with asteroids.

Evan20000
06-29-2010, 12:49 PM
Another issue is of course the pebble. Many people hate it, many people love it. I'd like to have it removed because it seems that fans of the pebble only like it because it serves as a "noob filter", giving hilarity to see people crash on it. However, I don't see this as a valid reason to keep it in--if anyone has reasons for why the pebble adds value to gameplay on this map other than as a noob filter please discuss it here.

Aside from the hilarity of watching people crash, it punishes careless low clears away from the goal by encouraging the ball to be passed along the mid lane. In a lot of cases, this helps avoid the 12 plane pileups that happen on the bottom.

Boko
06-29-2010, 01:00 PM
Cheese graphics or no cheese graphics, that is the question! :D

Mortva
06-29-2010, 02:00 PM
Games due tend to be long on this map. I think the main problem is: the goal area tends to get jam packed with planes making for a giant spam fest of missiles and mines when on defense, and the close proximity to the spawning area makes it so even if planes are getting killed off reinforcements can keep swooping in very easily to add to the chaos.
Strongly agreed!

mlopes
06-29-2010, 03:49 PM
Aside from the hilarity of watching people crash, it punishes careless low clears away from the goal by encouraging the ball to be passed along the mid lane. In a lot of cases, this helps avoid the 12 plane pileups that happen on the bottom.

+1

The pebble is important, no one who knows what they're doing crash on it. And good players, almost always, can make passes that aren't screwed by the pebble. I have even seen someone (I can't remember who, but it was on arr #1 server, yesterday or 2 days ago, something like that) use it to make a self pass (the ball hit the pebble and went up, he then catched it again) and tricked the other team to rush away from him (they all went forward as they though the ball would go that way).

nostrich
06-29-2010, 04:05 PM
I think the problem with asteroids is that the ball can easily get lost in some small space, like behind the goal, or along the bottom, and everyone chases the ball to retrieve it, causing pile-ups. This affects play on all maps, but it seems to happen particularly frequently on asteroids. Happens on maze a bit too, with people piling up in front of the goal.

That said, I like asteroids quite a bit. It encourages good passing, and the games tend to be pretty fun. (Obviously I'm playing for fun, not to be at the top of a ladder. So my opinion may be an outlier.)

mlopes
06-29-2010, 04:14 PM
That said, I like asteroids quite a bit. It encourages good passing, and the games tend to be pretty fun. (Obviously I'm playing for fun, not to be at the top of a ladder. So my opinion may be an outlier.)

Never though of that, but you may have a point there. I barely play ladder due to the high pings in Europe. I value good passing and fun games more than personal stats and I like asteroids a lot, too. Maybe the liking/disliking of this map have something to do with the way people see the game.

Sarah Palin
06-29-2010, 05:50 PM
This map needs a few small fixes, NOT to be removed. The opposite is true for Cross.

Considered
06-29-2010, 05:52 PM
Asteroids. I definitely didn't like it at first because of how jagged it is. But it grew on me, pebble and all. To me it is what a jagged ball map should be, the pinnacle of ball jaggedry if you will. Jagged ball maps should look more like asteroids and less like lostcity.

Kuja900
06-29-2010, 05:52 PM
This map is fine as is.

drunkguava
06-29-2010, 06:36 PM
no it's not, it's bad. Explos can camp the goal way too easily here. Most goals are a product of luck.

ryebone
06-29-2010, 07:05 PM
My main beef with the pebble is the juxtaposition with the flat ground below it. To me, it seems like the creator got lazy while designing the bottom, and thought "I'll just stick a little rock here to make it not completely flat." It's not so much a gameplay flaw as it is an aesthetic flaw. Fix the bottom to make it more jagged like the rest of the map, and the pebble is a non-issue.

mlopes
06-29-2010, 07:11 PM
My main beef with the pebble is the juxtaposition with the flat ground below it. To me, it seems like the creator got lazy while designing the bottom, and thought "I'll just stick a little rock here to make it not completely flat." It's not so much a gameplay flaw as it is an aesthetic flaw. Fix the bottom to make it more jagged like the rest of the map, and the pebble is a non-issue.

That would make it impossible to throw the ball along the ground. The pebble introduces an element of imprevisibility without ruining the corridor.

elxir
06-30-2010, 01:44 AM
I think a reason some people dislike this map is that it largely negates the ability of lower skills loopys to "dribble" the ball.

In addition, the large, open middle is such a huge part of the map that it somewhat moves away from the traditional ball style of "pick a route and go go go."

Just my 2c, I'm pretty neutral on this map.

drunkguava
06-30-2010, 01:53 AM
This is the reason it is bad.
Games due tend to be long on this map. I think the main problem is: the goal area tends to get jam packed with planes making for a giant spam fest of missiles and mines when on defense, and the close proximity to the spawning area makes it so even if planes are getting killed off reinforcements can keep swooping in very easily to add to the chaos.

We had a discussion about ball maps earlier that talked about how having a fast middle and slower offensive/defensive zones makes for a fun map. This map takes that to the extreme. The middle is fine, the ball doesnt remain there long, but the goal areas are wayyyyy too slow. The problem is that the cramped spaces do not allow for the ball to go anywhere but the original path you took. So if you go top, you can't pass it down until you are on top of the goal. There is one vertical path open between the middle and bottom routes, but it is useless because an explo camping in front of the goal can defend both the middle and bottom (and top for that matter) just by turning 20 degrees.

The way to fix this map is to open the goal area more. Give room for planes to maneuver and pass. Otherwise it's pick your tunnel (top, mid, bottom), then take nades/mines/rockets to the face.

elxir
06-30-2010, 01:56 AM
Great point guava. Look at labyrinth, for example. The goal area is wide enough that if you attack from underneath (even from outside the area), you can do a quick vertical pass to a well-timed Brillo and catch the defense with their pants down.

Passing anywhere except in front of you is largely nonexistent once you enter the "red zone" of asteroids.

Clapon
06-30-2010, 01:58 AM
100% agree with guava and elixir here if the goals were open more this map would be great.

nobodyhome
06-30-2010, 02:16 AM
Someone needs to go into MSPaint and then sketch out some potential ways of editing the goal areas of the map so that it's open.

Evan20000
06-30-2010, 02:20 AM
I think shortening the low rock opens up going under the whale in that picture better.

elxir
06-30-2010, 02:22 AM
just an initial thought

http://i50.tinypic.com/2m6q43a.jpg

drunkguava
06-30-2010, 02:41 AM
how about this:
moved goal left
shortened lower ramp and moved left
opened up vertical route in middle rock.
skinnied top rock

Clapon
06-30-2010, 02:42 AM
Edit: guava did most of what i said

EditEdit: guava maybe move the bigger rock on bottem pth up a little or shave a little more of the bottem of that rock to widen the lower path just a lil more, idk of corse this would have to be played with to see when enough is enough

Sarah Palin
06-30-2010, 03:47 AM
Liiiiiiike this

By rotating the middle rocks and widening the passage, you make top-bottom passes more viable and reduce a whale's ability to guard both. The goal has been pushed back together with the low skinny rock and the top bean-shaped rock.

If you want, you can shrink the skinny rock and the bean rock a bit, which would make the top and bottom passages more viable.

Boko
06-30-2010, 06:35 AM
Very good discussion, I'll take all of this into the new ball_asteroids.

Pebble stays tho :D

Clapon
06-30-2010, 08:14 AM
pebble stays tho :d

goooooood!!

nobodyhome
06-30-2010, 08:43 AM
Also, the top of this map can hurt you. That needs to be fixed.

andy
06-30-2010, 10:58 AM
cant you just put the normal asteroids ground?

Boko
06-30-2010, 08:53 PM
cant you just put the normal asteroids ground?

I've got plans for the ground, don't worry.

And I'll fix the top.

blln4lyf
06-30-2010, 11:19 PM
This is the reason it is bad.

We had a discussion about ball maps earlier that talked about how having a fast middle and slower offensive/defensive zones makes for a fun map. This map takes that to the extreme. The middle is fine, the ball doesnt remain there long, but the goal areas are wayyyyy too slow. The problem is that the cramped spaces do not allow for the ball to go anywhere but the original path you took. So if you go top, you can't pass it down until you are on top of the goal. There is one vertical path open between the middle and bottom routes, but it is useless because an explo camping in front of the goal can defend both the middle and bottom (and top for that matter) just by turning 20 degrees.

The way to fix this map is to open the goal area more. Give room for planes to maneuver and pass. Otherwise it's pick your tunnel (top, mid, bottom), then take nades/mines/rockets to the face.

This sums it up pretty well. The map is way to clustered near the goals and should be opened up or removed from the field of play, imo.

Kuja900
07-01-2010, 11:10 PM
Ball Asteroids does not need to be changed, it absolutely and rightfully punishes out of position players and the spawn near the goals add a unique element for both the offense and defense. You have to approach whales strategically to score goals, killing them/disabling them/etc.

Evan20000
07-01-2010, 11:14 PM
Also, pack a laser. The whales have nowhere to escape to if they're cuddling the goal.

Clapon
07-02-2010, 05:03 AM
Ball Asteroids does not need to be changed, it absolutely and rightfully punishes out of position players and the spawn near the goals add a unique element for both the offense and defense. You have to approach whales strategically to score goals, killing them/disabling them/etc.

The problem is, there is no out of position with this map... if your anywhere near the goal you have it covered fine.

Kuja900
07-02-2010, 06:11 AM
The problem is, there is no out of position with this map... if your anywhere near the goal you have it covered fine.

That is not true if anyone is caught being lazy that low pass shows no remorse for anyone with even half decent aim.

Kuja900
07-02-2010, 02:35 PM
The whale is also constricted into a small area, a laser user's wet dream.

drunkguava
07-02-2010, 05:25 PM
But where does the laser hide? He has to get through his choice of chokes and tunnels to get close enough to the whale to laser. It's a suicidal mission.
This map really encourages goal camping right now. A laser may have a chance at taking out a whale but other planes can lend defensive support much more easily than offensive support due to the narrowness of the tunnels and the spawn point. Opening up the tunnels and goal area might be enough of an offensive boost to make this map a non-campfest.

Evan20000
07-02-2010, 06:47 PM
Lasers can slip through the hole from behind. When someone isn't in possession of the ball, there aren't over 9000 rockets/nades/randashots/general BS flying through there. If the whale turns to kill the laser, they risk the other team scoring while they're facing the wrong way, while the laser isn't truely commited to that path and can abort at any time.