Stop teamstacking

[Carbon]

I'll try to keep this short. Stop teamstacking.

A good percentage of the TBD games I've been in since the altitude league started and people started wearing tags has been pretty seriously stacked because the "good" players try to get on the team thats going to win. Ok, I get it, you want to win. Well guess what, now you're stacking 7 60s against new players at level 10-20s and claiming because they have 2 bots on their team and are still down 1 player it's balanced.

I understand that people will be leaving the losing team to play other servers or just logging off, but please try to keep things even. I've been doing my part by joining the losing team to try to turn the tides, but it doesn't always work.

New players will be turned off by this kind of behaviour, so if you want people to stick around and be interested in the game try to avoid stacking teams. Nobody has fun when they're being consistently annihilated.

Thanks in advance

[Pillars]

Agreed. :eek:

[Grif]

Ought to be a mandatory setting to always be on Auto team assign.

[Karl]

auto team balance will be implemented soon. it's near the top of the list.

[Blank]

This could be a serious problem if anyone with a clan tag was actually good at this game.

[chobopeon]

ive never actually chosen a team. i just take what i am auto-assigned to.

blank, i hate you. go play xbla newbie.

[Vi*]

I've never witnessed this happening in a game, so I guess the problem hasn't gotten too bad. I know a lot of people support a vote teamshuffle option, though that's because we're too lazy to balance ourselves.

[Triped]

I'd think auto-team with some consideration of kill ratios would fix that, yeah.

[nesnl]

I think that most of the time that people think there is "team stacking" occurring is purely due to human error of interpreting randomness for a pattern. When ever I start a game I always just press F and take the team it auto assigns me. I assume that most people do the same thing. The problem lies in the fact that this inevitably turns into situations where one side looks like it has better players than another side. This is compounded by the idea that people tend to remember games that were lop sided rather than all the games they play that are relatively even. I don't blame someone for thinking that their is "team stacking" going on as it's merely a by-product of the human mind's inability to detect true randomness. I think that the auto-balancing tool will help this a great deal.

[DiogenesDog]

what maimer said.

[Triped]

I think that most of the time that people think there is "team stacking" occurring is purely due to human error of interpreting randomness for a pattern. When ever I start a game I always just press F and take the team it auto assigns me. I assume that most people do the same thing. The problem lies in the fact that this inevitably turns into situations where one side looks like it has better players than another side. This is compounded by the idea that people tend to remember games that were lop sided rather than all the games they play that are relatively even. I don't blame someone for thinking that their is "team stacking" going on as it's merely a by-product of the human mind's inability to detect true randomness. I think that the auto-balancing tool will help this a great deal.

I do agree with him that some players switch away from poor teams. Usually it's some ambitious level 30-50 guy going for the XP.

Autobalancing isn't going to fix that. Otherwise I agree with you.

[tec27]

If teams are uneven by like 1 player, and the team with less players is getting steamrolled, I tend to switch over. So I guess I'm doing the opposite of team stacking :P

[Snowsickle]

I've been accused of team-stacking dozens of times for pressing F to spawn upon joining a game. As painful as it is to agree with Maimer, it is more often than not pure randomness and will exist under any system.

Some features could definitely lessen the impact of some of the more prevalent team issues though:


Inability to switch teams when the number of players on each side are equal. You can still switch to spectator, allowing for two players to swap positions, but prevents someone from making a 5v5 into a 4v6.
Delayed autobalance (TF2-esque), if a 6v4 hasn't corrected itself after 20 seconds, automatically switch someone. This can be random or 'intelligent' in that it tries to minimize the level disparity between teams.
/vote teamshuffle. Sometimes teams do end up completely out of hand and there isn't much reason in playing through three rounds of it.

[Carbon]

I think that most of the time that people think there is "team stacking" occurring is purely due to human error of interpreting randomness for a pattern. When ever I start a game I always just press F and take the team it auto assigns me. I assume that most people do the same thing. The problem lies in the fact that this inevitably turns into situations where one side looks like it has better players than another side. This is compounded by the idea that people tend to remember games that were lop sided rather than all the games they play that are relatively even. I don't blame someone for thinking that their is "team stacking" going on as it's merely a by-product of the human mind's inability to detect true randomness. I think that the auto-balancing tool will help this a great deal.

I'm glad that you random your team and I wish more people did. I always just pound my fire button as soon as I get in the game and try to be the first one to spawn, but not everyone does that.

While this is sometimes to do with complete randomness, most of the time teams are an issue I see people waiting before they choose their team, and as soon as someone known to be a good player chooses one team all the people hung up on winning wait until someone randoms to the other team to choose the "good" team. If you spectate and watch where players go you can see the 60s stack on one side fairly decisively a large portion of the time. Also, players that see an opening on the winning team will sometimes switch over right away.

Yes, randomness means that teams won't be even very often, but that doesn't account for the number of times one team while is full of 60s and the other is full of 20s. Before the game went live it wasn't too bad, sometimes teams would be bad but there were enough good players around to stop a steamroll, but recently the new players brought in from advertising have meant that the teams are noobs vs vets at times, which is terrible.

Even with everyone randomly choosing teams I think that people need to make an effort to keep TBD game fair and balanced, otherwise new players will be driven away. I'm not accusing anyone of teamstacking, I know that **** happens and that bad teams will lose good players, but lets try to make an effort to keep teams fair for all the new players joining us.

[Ajplagge]

I actually enjoy switching to the losing team.

The problem is it often creates a 2 player misbalance on the teams that can only be corrected by asking a noob to switch.

For some reason everytime I say "Someone ****ty go to the other team" Noone wants to go. I don't get it. What a bunch of jerks.


But honestly I rarely see any old veterns purposely stack, even with everyone eyeing stats these days, most of us prefer a good close game.

-bob

[Ferret]

While this is sometimes to do with complete randomness, most of the time teams are an issue I see people waiting before they choose their team, and as soon as someone known to be a good player chooses one team all the people hung up on winning wait until someone randoms to the other team to choose the "good" team. If you spectate and watch where players go you can see the 60s stack on one side fairly decisively a large portion of the time. Also, players that see an opening on the winning team will sometimes switch over right away.


You probably confuse this with thinking everyone has the same, instant loading time for all maps and that no one alt tabs, uses the bathroom, gets anything to drink, has any roommates or a television nearby to distract them from intently and instantly mashing F as fast and furiously as possible to be assigned a team.

Although yes, I will admit there are times I have joined games where the teams were even person-wise, saw Blank and Snow on the same team and thought "gee, I would like to play a game with people I like as opposed to creating a nurturing and understanding environment for all of the people I am shooting."

There also seems to be the assumption here that there is no difference or variation in the skill or ability of any player at level 60.

[Snowsickle]

Yes, randomness means that teams won't be even very often, but that doesn't account for the number of times one team while is full of 60s and the other is full of 20s.


"They won't be even very often, but that doesn't account for the times that they aren't even."

What?

Yes, new players may join the team they think will win. However, these new players are themselves not very good, and if anything are only hindering the team; creating the exact opposite of team stacking. Most of the people I know who are capable of influencing a game either hit F to join a random team or they join the losing team because it's an amusing challenge. Team stacking does happen, which is why I support some features to prevent it, but I guarantee you it is nowhere near as often as you think.

[Blank]

I don't know if this is considered team stacking, but I always choose the team that Caped isn't on because I know it'll be the winning team.

[DevilsAdvocat]

I don't know if this is considered team stacking, but I always choose the team that Caped isn't on because I know it'll be the winning team.

lololol, i usually try to join the lesser team, b.c. its no fun to just beat down on lesser players. But ironically, i do often choose the team caped isnt on, but for a slightly different reason...
besides, if i am to ever make other ppl start playing time anchor miranda, it wont happen by beating a bunch of low lvl ppl...

[Pillars]

Upon joining a pre-existing game with an even number of players on both teams, every player should:

1.) Assess the level of skill of every other player in the game.

2.) Assess one's own level of skill relative to the average level of skill of all players in the game.

3.) Determine the average skill level of each team.

---> If your skill level is below the average, join the the team with the highest average skill level.

---> If your skill level is above the average, join the team with the lowest average skill level.

---> If you are Ferret, ignore all of this and just join whatever team has the highest number of X where X = elitist, old-schoolers.

---> If you are TheCapedAvenger, briefly consider playing the Explodet before coming to your senses and selecting double-fire, EMP, armored Loopy and choosing whichever team will allow you to maximize your K/D ratio.

etc, etc, etc

[Pillars]

I think that most of the time that people think there is "team stacking" occurring is purely due to human error of interpreting randomness for a pattern. When ever I start a game I always just press F and take the team it auto assigns me. I assume that most people do the same thing. The problem lies in the fact that this inevitably turns into situations where one side looks like it has better players than another side. This is compounded by the idea that people tend to remember games that were lop sided rather than all the games they play that are relatively even. I don't blame someone for thinking that their is "team stacking" going on as it's merely a by-product of the human mind's inability to detect true randomness. I think that the auto-balancing tool will help this a great deal.
This mostly, but also remember that league teams were 'stacking' one side a couple weeks ago to scrimmage against the public. As Blank so charmingly pointed out, having a league tag doesn't mean one is a good player, but the skill level of league players is almost always going to be higher than players who are new to the game.

There also seems to be the assumption here that there is no difference or variation in the skill or ability of any player at level 60.
I think he's making the lesser claim that level 60s are generally more skilled than players who aren't level 60. That seems pretty reasonable. There's clearly a huge skill differential among level 60s given that the requirement to reach level 60 is time investment, not skill [though skill allows one to lessen the investment of time.]


I think the main thing to recognize is that helping the newbies out a bit when they're first starting is often in one's own best interest as well [it helps to ensure Altitude's long-term success, providing Ferret an endless stream of 'people to shoot' for instance.]

[Carbon]

You probably confuse this with thinking everyone has the same, instant loading time for all maps and that no one alt tabs, uses the bathroom, gets anything to drink, has any roommates or a television nearby to distract them from intently and instantly mashing F as fast and furiously as possible to be assigned a team.

I mean actually watching the team makeup over the course of the first few minutes of a round. People will sometimes join one team then switch over to the better team. I think usually it happens because people want to play with their friends, and people who have played to 60 and are in clans will probably have more friends. I don't really blame people for this because I like to play with my friends instead of against them, I'm just bringing this up because its a trend I've been witnessing for the past few weeks. I'm worried that new players will go through the tutorial feeling that the game will be fun then get steamrolled and quit because they can't progress.

There also seems to be the assumption here that there is no difference or variation in the skill or ability of any player at level 60.

No, and you assuming I was assuming that is just silly.

I know there are some massive scrubs at 60 because getting there just means you spent a lot of time in game. Generally speaking, people at 60 have a better grasp of the game mechanics (especially piloting) and have access to better perks than players at level 12 who are sometimes running 3 - 28 by the end of a match because they can't stop ramming into walls. Also I was trying to keep the OP short and didn't think I had to explain that.

[Phasma Felis]

I don't know if this is considered team stacking, but I always choose the team that Caped isn't on because I know it'll be the winning team.
I lol'ed. :D

But seriously, people choose teams? I don't think I've ever even looked at the team buttons except when someone complains about balance.

[ham]

i would be careful about any sort of compulsory shuffling. half the fun of online gaming is playing with your friends. lots of new players are going to come to the game along with friends, and they are going to want to have some degree of control over whether or not they play together.

i would also be careful with the implementation of mid-game shuffling. one of the most important details of engaging team games is actually giving a **** about your team. there's no reason to even try if you feel like halfway through the game you're going to get autobalanced to the other team and all you have to try to undo all your previous hard work.

just don't team stack. it can't be that fun to beat up on scrubs all the time. it's like feeling tough because you can kick a baby in the head.

[Carbon]

it's like feeling tough because you can kick a baby in the head.

I'm strong, I kick every baby in the head! ALL OF THEM

[ham]

I'm strong, I kick every baby in the head! ALL OF THEM

as long as we're going off topic for a moment, what's up with no images in signatures?

-

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/1575/altsig.jpg

[Ferret]

I seem to have a problem where I make a generalization about comments in a thread, and a single person will decide I was talking specifically to him.

There's no reason to program anything into the game that does any thing more than keep an equal number of warm bodies on each side. In the interim, if someone is constantly going back and forth during a game, tell him to stop, then kick him if he doesn't.

...keep TBD game fair and balanced.

Isn't this the Fox News slogan?

[Grif]

I always use auto and have never had problems.

Levels should not SHOULD NOT ever EVER be used to determine teams.

I am level 60. I am not good at this game, and frequently suck entirely on purpose. People would not appreciate me being their level 60 dispensation, methinks. Even k/d spread is a bad idea; it should just be random, that way no one has anything to complain about.

[Blank]

frequently suck entirely on purpose.

This is also how Dio makes ends meat (a pun within a pun?!?!).

[DiogenesDog]

I dunno, I think doing a behind-the-scenes k:d ratio peek to autobalance teams might be cool. It'll at least give some rough balance.

I'd say that we shouldn't do a midgame auto team adjustment tho. Instead, I'd like to have it as a voting option.