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Mt.Vesuvius
10-20-2010, 10:40 PM
In recent times i and many others have been noticing a decrease in the skill level shown in ladder. I think that there should be some kind of limit on the skill somehow because some people are just plain useless and can disrupt a whole game. Any other thoughts on this?

mikesol
10-20-2010, 10:43 PM
Did you not read the latest thread in here about kicking players? It pretty much addresses this thought =X

DMCM
10-20-2010, 10:50 PM
I have been suggesting a very simple solutiuon for a while:

A password change. All the good players come to the forums and the new pass would be here. It would spread back to everyone of course, but for some time we won't have the ladder flooded with less-skilled players.

DMCM
10-20-2010, 10:54 PM
Last time I got banned form ladder (for 4 days) was because I refused to play with a RIBZ guy on my team. Why did I do that? Because he was playing reverse loopy, dumb bombs, etc. and I know that with 9 decent players and 1 of THOSE people, I will lose if that guy is on my team no matter what, it's essentially 5v4. And I will continue to refuse playing with a number of people who simply choose to be useless.


That's not even elitism, it's common sense.

sunshineduck
10-20-2010, 11:01 PM
Last time I got banned form ladder (for 4 days) was because I refused to play with a RIBZ guy on my team. Why did I do that? Because he was playing reverse loopy, dumb bombs, etc. and I know that with 9 decent players and 1 of THOSE people, I will lose if that guy is on my team no matter what, it's essentially 5v4. And I will continue to refuse playing with a number of people who simply choose to be useless.


That's not even elitism, it's common sense.

Right, because abandoning your team and making it actually 4v5 is a great way to handle that situation.

If you don't want to play with a guy on your team, don't join the game in lobby while he's in the game as well. Simple as that.

DMCM
10-20-2010, 11:03 PM
That's what I do, I spend 90% of my time in ladder spectating.

He probably joined late or I didn't see him. I certainly wouldn't have joined if I saw he was there.

tgleaf
10-20-2010, 11:08 PM
If you don't want to play with a guy on your team, don't join the game in lobby while he's in the game as well. Simple as that.

Agree with DMCM that it's not always plausible to know/see what each plane comp is before you start a ladder game. I would play out the loss (if it comes to that) and then request a ban on that player.

sunshineduck
10-20-2010, 11:10 PM
I'm not going to repost my entire rant I just posted in the other, identical thread but if you haven't read it yet there's some food for thought.

As much as you want to say "go play pubs to get better, ladder's not for bad people", do you really believe that anyone's going to get better playing in pubbies? Especially when half the people in pubbies are bored ladderites screwing around with revbombing and kill whoring?

Ladder's a perfectly fine place to learn how to play well. I did it, and I'm sure I'm not the only one - I was absolutely pathetic at this game when I was playing nothing but pubs, and I never got better until I started playing competitive ladder games. Even after nearly 3,000 ladder games played I'm still a relatively mediocre player.. patience with newer players is key, but if you'd rather complain about "bad" players instead of trying to teach them organized play, that's your prerogative. As ryebone and Pieface stated in another thread, players refusing to learn and refusing to play to the best of their abilities will be handled on a case-by-case basis. That's all we can ask for.

That being said, I wholeheartedly agree with your prognosis on R!BZ players in general - last I checked, they were very close to being permabanned from ladder as a team.

sunshineduck
10-20-2010, 11:13 PM
Agree with DMCM that it's not always plausible to know/see what each plane comp is before you start a ladder game. I would play out the loss (if it comes to that) and then request a ban on that player.

This was a different case altogether - DMCM knew fully well that R!BZ players are notorious for flying reverse and playing badly in general, he just wasn't aware of the player's presence in the game. That's entirely forgivable - sitting out the entire game in protest, unfortunately, is not.

DMCM
10-20-2010, 11:15 PM
I played pubs for 6 months as a demo loopy.


Did I get any particularly good killing skills?

Not really

Did I understand how TBD is supposed to be played, what each plane's role is, how to attack, how to defend, etc.

GOD YES



Some people DO come to ladder prematurely and mess up the whole balance. Pubs aren't that bad.

sunshineduck
10-20-2010, 11:18 PM
I played pubs for 6 months as a demo loopy.


Did I get any particularly good killing skills?

Not really

Did I understand how TBD is supposed to be played, whjat each plane's role is, how to attack, how to defend, etc.

GOD YES

That was pre-ladder, when all anyone had was pubs. Back then (as far as I know) pubs were taken at the very least semi-seriously. Can you really say the same today? I've played in pubbies recently and the complete lack of organization and team tactics is very apparent.

Maybe Mikesol's new server can remedy some of that, but I highly highly doubt it, especially if he continues this trend of allowing pretty much anyone to be an admin.

Some people DO come to ladder prematurely and mess up the whole balance. Pubs aren't that bad.

And those people will eventually balance out to their skill level. Again, if you don't want to play with/against them and run the risk of your ladder points, don't. Nobody is forcing you to play.

Disclaimer: I'm not specifically talking about you or calling you a prick or anything DMCM, I'm mostly just typing in response to the general thought that bad players shouldn't be allowed to ladder.

Fartface
10-20-2010, 11:44 PM
Less qq y'all need to let us nubs do our thing. I agree that if someone is throwing the game with a useless perk setup and refuses to switch for the good of the team, that person should be given a warning or get banned or whatever fits. But I don't think you should exclude the players who don't have much skill but at least are trying their best. I mean, if you only let the pros in ladder, the rankings will be too close and it won't have as much of a consequence to lose.

shrode
10-21-2010, 01:43 AM
the main issue is that they generally start out at a much higher rank than they should. However, with the style of ladder we use there is no avoiding that

Sunaku
10-21-2010, 05:08 AM
Agree with DMCM that it's not always plausible to know/see what each plane comp is before you start a ladder game. I would play out the loss (if it comes to that) and then request a ban on that player.
Yeah, a bit like that guy yesterday who was literally flying in circles in front of his goal the whole game. I tell it to Guava, he acknowledges the situation and... nothing. Nothing happened. The guy is throwing games on purpose and walks away with it.
Now I don't want to put all admins in the same basket here, but how do you expect people to report rules infringements if you can't take live action when needed ?
So here is a plea to all admins : administrate less like Ents (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ents) and have more cojones, please.

mikesol
10-21-2010, 05:54 AM
Yeah, a bit like that guy yesterday who was literally flying in circles in front of his goal the whole game. I tell it to Guava, he acknowledges the situation and... nothing. Nothing happened. The guy is throwing games on purpose and walks away with it.
Now I don't want to put all admins in the same basket here, but how do you expect people to report rules infringements if you can't take live action when needed ?
So here is a plea to all admins : administrate less like Ents (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ents) and have more cojones, please.

Let's be fair - what would you propose to do in a situation like that? Ban the guy on the spot and stop the game? That would be terribly annoying. How do you know nothing happened after that? Maybe the player was talked to and will either change or be banned.

The thing is that a lot of the newbie players don't really understand certain concepts that the vets inherently do. While bans can be handed out to them - we like to try and approach them a little nicer than "banned nub."

elxir
10-21-2010, 05:56 AM
the problem - particularly in ball ladder and in the players who migrate from ball ladder to tbd ladder - is that these players somehow gained no foundation in basic strategy.

those of us who played those bouncy ball servers for a few months...{r87}, {ball}, tvo/old ice, {arr}, etc...and now vet tbd players who have figured **** out...we have a ****ing clue of how the basic strategy if games works. with a rare few exceptions (zz, shrode come to mind)...nobody else has a clue what the **** is going in and just **** up the servers, especially ball (and tbd when they manage to find their way over there)

Sunaku
10-21-2010, 06:19 AM
Let's be fair - what would you propose to do in a situation like that? Ban the guy on the spot and stop the game? That would be terribly annoying. How do you know nothing happened after that? Maybe the player was talked to and will either change or be banned.

The thing is that a lot of the newbie players don't really understand certain concepts that the vets inherently do. While bans can be handed out to them - we like to try and approach them a little nicer than "banned nub."
Of course I wouldn't advocate for a ban midgame and I didn't. I think I was reasonable enough to wait the end of the game. Where nothing happened and several games after that, where still nothing had happened as I asked Guava.
Regarding the newbie excuse, it doesn't apply for multiple reasons. First, during that game, I asked the guy if he could fly closer to his goal and even in his goal, and as expected his troll DNA couldn't resist the suggestion. Second, he already threw a game earlier by spending half of it stalling or crashing because he thought chatting was more important.
And anyway, there is simply no excuse for flying in circle and goal camping a whole game. If you're that new to the game that you think this is good gameplay, you shouldn't be in ladder in the first place.

As for talking to trolls, this is the kind of leniency they abuse to keep coming back and throw games once in a while. Such trolls should only be dealt with the Ripley way : with a flamethrower.

drunkguava
10-21-2010, 07:01 AM
Of course I wouldn't advocate for a ban midgame and I didn't. I think I was reasonable enough to wait the end of the game. Where nothing happened and several games after that, where still nothing had happened as I asked Guava.
Regarding the newbie excuse, it doesn't apply for multiple reasons. First, during that game, I asked the guy if he could fly closer to his goal and even in his goal, and as expected his troll DNA couldn't resist the suggestion. Second, he already threw a game earlier by spending half of it stalling or crashing because he thought chatting was more important.
And anyway, there is simply no excuse for flying in circle and goal camping a whole game. If you're that new to the game that you think this is good gameplay, you shouldn't be in ladder in the first place.

As for talking to trolls, this is the kind of leniency they abuse to keep coming back and throw games once in a while. Such trolls should only be dealt with the Ripley way : with a flamethrower.

he won that game. don't leave that bit out...
The chatting and crashing was wrong, I told him that, and he stopped. He got better about circling too in later games after I talked to him. Sure, he still wasn't great, but if you were paying attention, he actually was defending the goal decently (he won the game that you are complaining about and stopped several rushes). Yeah he was bad, but he showed improvement when we talked to him about it and that's good enough for me.

i dont feel the need to show my cajones by banning randos in ball ladder.
If other admins feel the need to ban him, then whatever, I don't care. But smush and I felt like he was improving and he was decent. Tough tits, suna. Maybe a different admin will bend to your will more easily.

CCN
10-21-2010, 07:09 AM
he won that game. don't leave that bit out...
The chatting and crashing was wrong, I told him that, and he stopped. He got better about circling too in later games after I talked to him. Sure, he still wasn't great, but if you were paying attention, he actually was defending the goal decently (he won the game that you are complaining about and stopped several rushes). Yeah he was bad, but he showed improvement when we talked to him about it and that's good enough for me.

i dont feel the need to show my cajones by banning randos in ball ladder.
If other admins feel the need to ban him, then whatever, I don't care. But smush and I felt like he was improving and he was decent. Tough tits, suna. Maybe a different admin will bend to your will more easily.

I won that game for him. Stopping a random plane now and again due to circling the goal can happen by a blind chipmonk.

drunkguava
10-21-2010, 07:11 AM
I won that game for him. I'm glad though, that if he's circling the goal that he can stop 1 or 2 planes that sometimes come his way, you know, once in a blue moon. That doesn't make it okay to circle the goal and be half a player for your team (at best).

read the rest of the post please. specifically the bits about talking to him and improvement.

also, he had goldies for 50% of that game, lol.

in any case, I'm just getting defensive now because suna is a bitch when he doesnt get what he wants. If anyone sees this guy (Hades) circling the goal still let me know and i'll personally ban him.

Sunaku
10-21-2010, 07:57 AM
read the rest of the post please. specifically the bits about talking to him and improvement.

also, he had goldies for 50% of that game, lol.

in any case, I'm just getting defensive now because suna is a bitch when he doesnt get what he wants. If anyone sees this guy (Hades) circling the goal still let me know and i'll personally ban him.
I'm sad you make it personal. How does asking to apply the very rules of ladder translate to "bending to my will" ?
Instead of coming after me, I'd like to see you answer this :
12) Any activity not listed above that can cause a negative experience for others while playing ladder.
Now the infamous rule 12 is used for wide reasonings, but tell me what is closer to causing a negative experience than joining the ladder to throw games on purpose ?
I'm surprised you justify his presence on the ladder by "winning the game". Because by that logic, you should also completely remove the banning random perks rule. After all, if people playing random just win the game, who cares, right ? It doesn't work like that, winning involves more than one person and you can't dismiss his teammates because you feel so. It just means the other team was bad enough that they could lose a 6v5.
And gold bars ? Really ? That's the least you can expect from camping his own goal as a whale, are you kidding ?
Justifying your decisions by wins or losses sounds as biased as a coin toss to me. At least it's interesting to hear you might consider banning him now that he's thrown two games already.

But hey you're right, someone is throwing games, other people complain about it, so... well I'm a bitch. It's fair. Fun times being insulted by admins just for having rules applied.

drunkguava
10-21-2010, 09:02 AM
I'm sad you make it personal. How does asking to apply the very rules of ladder translate to "bending to my will" ?
Instead of coming after me, I'd like to see you answer this :

Now the infamous rule 12 is used for wide reasonings, but tell me what is closer to causing a negative experience than joining the ladder to throw games on purpose ?
I'm surprised you justify his presence on the ladder by "winning the game". Because by that logic, you should also completely remove the banning random perks rule. After all, if people playing random just win the game, who cares, right ? It doesn't work like that, winning involves more than one person and you can't dismiss his teammates because you feel so. It just means the other team was bad enough that they could lose a 6v5.
And gold bars ? Really ? That's the least you can expect from camping his own goal as a whale, are you kidding ?
Justifying your decisions by wins or losses sounds as biased as a coin toss to me. At least it's interesting to hear you might consider banning him now that he's thrown two games already.

But hey you're right, someone is throwing games, other people complain about it, so... well I'm a bitch. It's fair. Fun times being insulted by admins just for having rules applied.

Ok, so you're right, winning the game should not factor into an admin's decision on making a ban. The reason I had for not giving him the ban, and the reason I said I would ban him in the future if necessary, is that I gave him a warning. I talked to him and he stopped circling the goal. The distinction between throwing the game and simply being bad is an important one. I got the impression that he was just not that good, which is why i thought talking to him, and having him change his behavior, was a better option than banning him right away.

This is how I admin, and the reason I insult you in my post up there is that this isn't the first time you've made comments about how I admin. There are ways to complain and/or ask for bans without being douchey. I know this is just your normal sarcastic self, but then deal with it when my opinion of you deteriorates.

You conveniently ignore half of what I say my reasoning is in my post, and you latch onto the "winning the game" comment I made. That was incorrect I agree, but let me reiterate my reasoning once again: He stopped circling the goal. If he starts circling again, then I'm ready to give him a ban. But my style of admining is not to hand out bans for everything. I try to talk to people first, and explain what they're doing wrong. If they still don't listen, then I ban. And this is why my bans tend to be more harsh than other admins- even for first offenses. Mike, rye, nobo, other admins, if you think i should be more trigger-happy with the bans, shoot me a PM.

evilarsenal
10-21-2010, 10:08 AM
In recent times i and many others have been noticing a decrease in the skill level shown in ladder. I think that there should be some kind of limit on the skill somehow because some people are just plain useless and can disrupt a whole game. Any other thoughts on this?

you can just leave the server vesuvius, and the games would be so much better

Jayfourke
10-21-2010, 12:13 PM
^ LOL, told.

For my part, I will admit that I sucked last night. Sorry.

Beagle
10-21-2010, 01:01 PM
CAN'T WE KEEP IT IN ONE THREAAAADDDDDDd

Mt.Vesuvius
10-21-2010, 02:34 PM
Ok, so you're right, winning the game should not factor into an admin's decision on making a ban. The reason I had for not giving him the ban, and the reason I said I would ban him in the future if necessary, is that I gave him a warning. I talked to him and he stopped circling the goal. The distinction between throwing the game and simply being bad is an important one. I got the impression that he was just not that good, which is why i thought talking to him, and having him change his behavior, was a better option than banning him right away.

This is how I admin, and the reason I insult you in my post up there is that this isn't the first time you've made comments about how I admin. There are ways to complain and/or ask for bans without being douchey. I know this is just your normal sarcastic self, but then deal with it when my opinion of you deteriorates.

You conveniently ignore half of what I say my reasoning is in my post, and you latch onto the "winning the game" comment I made. That was incorrect I agree, but let me reiterate my reasoning once again: He stopped circling the goal. If he starts circling again, then I'm ready to give him a ban. But my style of admining is not to hand out bans for everything. I try to talk to people first, and explain what they're doing wrong. If they still don't listen, then I ban. And this is why my bans tend to be more harsh than other admins- even for first offenses. Mike, rye, nobo, other admins, if you think i should be more trigger-happy with the bans, shoot me a PM.

Guava i have to agree with Sunaku. (weird right?) That guy (hades) was literally circling the goal while i was there. He ended with a whale ratio of 15-1 i think it was. You think it is wrong that a whale has the least kills but a 15 ratio?

The game after that he was flying toward enemy goal with the ball. 4 teammates in front of him. Most of the other team was dead. the score was 5-5. he coulda passed and ended the game.

Yet he chose to hold the ball, therefore allowing the other team to kill him, steal it, and get the winning goal. i think he may have had like 20 kills that game while i had somewhere around 40.. Big difference..

Teething
10-21-2010, 05:33 PM
This is less about Ball ladder and more about TBD ladder, but if you guys experience more players coming into the game itself, for a while the skill level everywhere will fall quite a lot. Especially when the original player base is small. Going and playing other servers isn't much of a legitamite arguement, they're different. People don't generally play seriously there, they use different perks and planes for different things. I played ladder for three to four days and was much better off than a week or two of playing outside it. I quit do to request, and will be back. The best way for a lot of people to get radically good, is to jump into the pool of the radically good and try and survive.

Sunaku
10-21-2010, 06:48 PM
You conveniently ignore half of what I say my reasoning is in my post, and you latch onto the "winning the game" comment I made. That was incorrect I agree, but let me reiterate my reasoning once again: He stopped circling the goal. I somehow ignored half of your post because no u. I think I've proven before that the guy was a troll and not a newbie. You keep saying he didn't know but if he was a newbie, he would have circled every game and it wasn't the case, he moved before that one (just ruined it by chatting half the time) and after that. Please stop assuming I want people randomly banned when I'm merely bringing you facts.
And now that you talk to troll instead of using the bansledgehammer on them, the next troll will know he gets to walk away because he will be "talked to". Or maybe Hades will be dumb enough to come back circling one more game, which is one too many. Meanwhile more games will be ruined. Trolls. Leniency. Flamethrower.

Cloud
10-21-2010, 06:58 PM
i did not read this thread ,only first post, anyways my suggestion is just give us "elite jerks" one captain server for ladder and forthe rest of u that dont like capts ,u can keep playing on the other one (custom vote start one), and we are all happy and dont need to play with nubs. And pls dont say "u need 10 min to start capts game" or any similar anti capt server comment cos u will have other server and dont need to care bout capts!

mikesol
10-21-2010, 09:07 PM
It's pretty easy as a spectator to sit back and make hostile comments about admins not doing their job properly. It's another story entirely to be an admin and have to deal with it.

Let's throw out some axioms here:
1) Everyone was originally a noob
2) Everyone did not know how to play as a team or what was useful and what wasn't.

There are a lot of people who are coming to ladder to improve their skills and to try and learn real competitive play. Unfortunately for the cranky vets, this means that they have to deal with noobs or people that don't know how to play very well. Now - ladder was designed as a place for everyone who wanted to get better. It was not designed as a place for any of you specifically. This means that you need to stop thinking that it is your territory and that everyone should bend to your will.

Furthermore, you need to realize that the admins are trying to do their best in every situation. If I see a noob in ladder playing something stupid - I kindly point out - "Hey so and so you should really consider changing your perks to xyz. I think it would help out both you and your team." Now if they respond with "STFU nUB" - I ban them and that's that. However, if they respond with something along the lines of "oh ok I'll try" or "but this *is* a good plane" - then there is at least something there to work with. I can try and reason with them. If people continue to do things that ruin their team - then yes I do ban them. If I see someone circling the base and they don't stop after a warning - I ban them.

I don't get why this is a hard concept. If you have issues with people - take a ss and send me a complaint (or any of the other ladder admins). Instead of whining about nubs - do something about it. Posting angry cranky threads about how you think people are bad does not help anyone. After all - there are many of you who are "vets" now who I would have banned months ago for being bad if that was something we banned for.

Pieface
10-21-2010, 10:13 PM
@Teething - I've played TBD ladder with you before, and honestly I was disappointed with other people's attitudes. You were clearly trying hard to improve, and shouldn't let the hostility from a few elitists get to you. As you said, the best way to improve is to play competitive games - don't let others convince you that you have any less right than them to play there.

Stormich
10-21-2010, 10:18 PM
i did not read this thread ,only first post, anyways my suggestion is just give us "elite jerks" one captain server for ladder and forthe rest of u that dont like capts ,u can keep playing on the other one (custom vote start one), and we are all happy and dont need to play with nubs. And pls dont say "u need 10 min to start capts game" or any similar anti capt server comment cos u will have other server and dont need to care bout capts!

250 max ping with captain ladder options for pros would be awesomecakes

[Y]
10-21-2010, 10:29 PM
250 max ping with captain ladder options for pros would be awesomecakes
I made a thread about it. It was ignored, which I really didn't understand. The two tbd ladder servers are never both active, so I don't get why one of them can't be changed to captains games ladder (in b4 bitching about e-points/match fixing/new players not getting to play- we can make captains games not count towards our ratings, and how does spectating good players not help you improve?)

http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4834

GGQ
10-21-2010, 10:31 PM
There were times when people were making very similar posts about banning the people who are wanting to ban people now.

Evan20000
10-22-2010, 12:19 AM
250 max ping with captain ladder options for pros would be awesomecakes

Now for some shameless server promotion: The prose server has all the facilities for cappy games. Srsly, use it guys. The ones we played the other night were great fun.

ryebone
10-22-2010, 12:53 AM
After all - there are many of you who are "vets" now who I would have banned months ago for being bad if that was something we banned for.

I cannot "this" this comment enough.

Teething
10-22-2010, 01:16 AM
@Teething - I've played TBD ladder with you before, and honestly I was disappointed with other people's attitudes. You were clearly trying hard to improve, and shouldn't let the hostility from a few elitists get to you. As you said, the best way to improve is to play competitive games - don't let others convince you that you have any less right than them to play there.

Thanks, but I think for the most part, I don't want to get on anyone's bad side, so until I'm good, if people complain about my gameplay I'll just leave. As for now I'm having lots of fun trying to get a good ratio with tracker, it's pretty fun :D

Sunaku
10-22-2010, 01:26 AM
StuffIt sure is easy to be an armchair admin, but another thing is easy. Banning people when they're obviously throwing games. Today, another troll came and ruined 3 or more games before people realized he needed a high kick. I'm a bit disappointed he didn't call himself Barbra Streisand, but I guess you can't always expect quality trolling. Anyway, I won't even bother report him because I'm assuming he would be "talked to". And not in the mafia sense, unfortunately.

sunshineduck
10-22-2010, 01:31 AM
Anyway, I won't even bother report him because I'm assuming he would be "talked to". And not in the mafia sense, unfortunately.

well, I guess you win..?

not quite sure what you're trying to accomplish here

Sunaku
10-22-2010, 02:03 AM
not quite sure what you're trying to accomplish here
You might want to read the whole thread.

Beagle
10-22-2010, 02:07 AM
It sure is easy to be an armchair admin, but another thing is easy.

It sure is easy to totally ignore a great response and then keep on complaining for no reason

Perhaps we should have a 'skill level in the forums' thread where we ask for bans on people like you for being both hateful AND bad, twice as bad as the people you're complaining about

sunshineduck
10-22-2010, 02:07 AM
I read the thread in its entirety before posting as I always do, I am just confused as to why you would intentionally not report someone you obviously wanted to get banned, just seems counterproductive towards your cause is all

I mean, I suppose you're trying to prove a point or something but what are you accomplishing, really?

Sunaku
10-22-2010, 02:23 AM
It sure is easy to totally ignore a great response and then keep on complaining for no reason

Perhaps we should have a 'skill level in the forums' thread where we ask for bans on people like you for being both hateful AND bad, twice as bad as the people you're complaining about
First, I'm not totally ignoring a great response, I'm not even denying the sense of his post. This thread is both a discussion on newbie skills, which I don't care about as there is already another thread about it; and a discussion about banning people throwing games, which I'm talking about.
Second, you say I'm hateful ? Why don't you read your very post, you know nothing about me but you attack me personally ? That's rich.

@SSD : Reporting him is useless exactly for what I stated : yesterday's troll wasn't banned so why would today's one be any different ? I want this person banned but seeing the recent ladder policy, even if I report him, he won't be anyway. My point is that being lenient with ladder trolls is counterproductive, they keep coming back as they did today.

ryebone
10-22-2010, 02:25 AM
yesterday's troll wasn't banned so why would today's one be any different ?

Was there an admin present?

sunshineduck
10-22-2010, 02:29 AM
@SSD : Reporting him is useless exactly for what I stated : yesterday's troll wasn't banned so why would today's one be any different ? I want this person banned but seeing the recent ladder policy, even if I report him, he won't be anyway. My point is that being lenient with ladder trolls is counterproductive, they keep coming back as they did today.

so while working under your assumption that the ladder admins are too lenient and that they won't enforce the rules to your standards, you decided to not report someone you felt was an obvious ladder troll to prove your point that not banning ladder trolls is counterproductive, thereby ensuring that the ladder troll got away scotch-free?

do you want a gold star or something?

mikesol
10-22-2010, 02:29 AM
It sure is easy to be an armchair admin, but another thing is easy. Banning people when they're obviously throwing games. Today, another troll came and ruined 3 or more games before people realized he needed a high kick. I'm a bit disappointed he didn't call himself Barbra Streisand, but I guess you can't always expect quality trolling. Anyway, I won't even bother report him because I'm assuming he would be "talked to". And not in the mafia sense, unfortunately.

An armchair admin? I don't even know what you mean by that. Sure it's easy to press the ban button - but it's another thing to do it intelligently. Get off your high horse already dude. We've worked on these ladder servers to try and add something to the game and all you do is sit back and bitch about how you're not getting your way. You want to go make your own server where you can ban all the people you think are bad - feel free. I'm sure you'd get a few players there for a time.

I've said my piece about what you can do if you have trouble with players. You can either do something useful and report it - or you can sit there and whine about it. Personally, I'd try and help out by simply taking a screenshot and sending in a complaint. I'd love to continue to make ladder a better place.

This is the internet and there will always be trolls. There will always be people who make your game experience less enjoyable. Some of these trolls are obvious and can be banned right away. Sometimes they're not as obvious and require more games to see. Sometimes you think people are trolls and they really aren't. The fact of the matter is that we try our best to deal with them without banning people unnecessarily.

If we banned people arbitrarily I could just go onto ladder and ban you for 20 years for being a dick at times. However, us admins aren't like that. We want to treat people fairly and reasonably. Are we perfect? Of course not. Can we ban everyone and find every person in altitude who isn't playing properly? No. It's up to the players to be mature and report it. You aren't helping anyone by whining and not doing that.

Sunaku
10-22-2010, 02:48 AM
Was there an admin present?
Guava was here, but I guess here goes the debate on whether he was a newbie or a troll, which happened somewhere a few posts back.

@SSD: As you desperately want to nail me down, last time I answer you :
Banning people throwing games is "my standards" now ? Good to know. And my point is that not banning trolls encourages them to come back, which happened.
I don't want your gold star but you certainly want reading lessons.

@Mikesol : Regarding the "armchair admin" part, I was actually agreeing with you there, saying that most of us are armchair admins and think it's easy to admin while it's often more complicated. So I guess I should be sorry if there was a misunderstanding there. But as you're putting words in my mouth, i.e. me "wanting to ban bad people" while I only want trolls throwing games banned, I'm not so sorry. I never requested bans on "bad" players and never will.
So while delicate ban decisions might occur, the specific case I'm talking about was easy. The guy was textbook trolling multiple games and an admin present did nothing against it. Hence the rant.

Edit:
It's up to the players to be mature and report it. You aren't helping anyone by whining and not doing that.I won't go as far as talking about maturity but I did report it to a present admin who acknowledged it and nothing happened. What else am I supposed to do ?

mikesol
10-22-2010, 02:55 AM
Guava was here, but I guess here goes the debate on whether he was a newbie or a troll, which happened somewhere a few posts back.

@SSD: As you desperately want to nail me down, last time I answer you :
Banning people throwing games is "my standards" now ? Good to know. And my point is that not banning trolls encourages them to come back, which happened.
I don't want your gold star but you certainly want reading lessons.

@Mikesol : Regarding the "armchair admin" part, I was actually agreeing with you there, saying that most of us are armchair admins and think it's easy to admin while it's often more complicated. So I guess I should be sorry if there was a misunderstanding there. But as you're putting words in my mouth, i.e. me "wanting to ban bad people" while I only want trolls throwing games banned, I'm not so sorry. I never requested bans on "bad" players and never will.
So while delicate ban decisions might occur, the specific case I'm talking about was easy. The guy was textbook trolling multiple games and an admin present did nothing against it. Hence the rant.

Sunaku -

I think I understand your armchair admin part - I thought you were calling me one. Thanks for the clarification.

As far as your "wanting to ban bad people" - it stems from your posts. I am not putting any words into your mouth. Let me quote you here: "Yeah, a bit like that guy yesterday who was literally flying in circles in front of his goal the whole game. I tell it to Guava, he acknowledges the situation and... nothing. Nothing happened. The guy is throwing games on purpose and walks away with it."

Reading that post we seem to interpret it in two separate ways. I believe this is the cause for your confusion.

See you look at this poor player and say he's an obvious troll and should be banned. I look at him and say - he prolly just doesn't understand. Do you remember turretnator or any of those people in official who think they're helping their team win by going after turrets? Do you think they are simply trolls and purposely throwing the game? Not at all. They absolutely 100% think they are helping their team. They just haven't come to realize what they need to do yet.

There are plenty of newbies in ball who go to explo and spin in the goal or reverse in front of it because they think that's a good tactic. Some of the better players in ball ladder even did that at one point in time. They simply needed to learn that's not good and move on.

Does that make more sense? Hopefully we're on the same page now.

Edit: In response to your last statement - you did the right thing. You reported it to an admin. The player has been warned and will either improve or be banned. I was referring to the fact that you were now purposely not reporting players because you feel that they won't receive any punishment.

sunshineduck
10-22-2010, 03:04 AM
@SSD: As you desperately want to nail me down, last time I answer you :
Banning people throwing games is "my standards" now ? Good to know. And my point is that not banning trolls encourages them to come back, which happened.
I don't want your gold star but you certainly want reading lessons.

so because of your interpretation of someone's play being him intentionally throwing the game, and your desperately wanting an admin to ban that player based on your idea of throwing games.

and I am perfectly aware of what your point is, I was just wondering if your idea of helping admins enforce what your interpretation of the rules and play of specific players is withholding information that would possibly further your cause.

if you stand by your post, that's fine, I was just wondering if you had noticed the blatant flaw in your otherwise truly impeccable logic

Sunaku
10-22-2010, 03:39 AM
@Mikesol: I can see how my first post you quoted could be interpreted both ways. Even if that kind of badness-- flying in circles ang goal camping-- would be way beyond the skill level people are complaining about in this thread. I may have seen two people ever do it in ladder, this one included. Also, don't forget I was quoting tgleaf's post suggesting to request a ban on people playing really bad.

And even if your example is rhetorical, I wouldn't say it's similar. The guy flying in circle is completely useless. At least the one going after turrets is somewhat helping. Unless he goes after his own turrets, in which case immediate clinical attention is required. He may not be providing the best help to his team but he provides some, while the circle flyer does nothing.
As for my troll being a troll, I believe I cleared the eventual confusion by pointing out in my second post why he was indeed one. It wasn't his first feat and I pointed it out the same way to the admin that night.
There are plenty of newbies in ball who go to explo and spin in the goal or reverse in front of it because they think that's a good tactic. Some of the better players in ball ladder even did that at one point in time.I demand names.

The player has been warned and will either improve or be banned. I was referring to the fact that you were now purposely not reporting players because you feel that they won't receive any punishment.We are on the same page, except for that last part. I think only warning trolls like this one is not a productive move. Today, another one came and crashed repeatedly, and I guess he would have only been warned in the same fashion. Your policy towards trolls leaves too much room for abuse, and it is abused right now. So I guess our page went back to square one, oh well.

@SSD: I can't bother repeating myself 50 times, again read the whole thread. I could present you someone crashing and you'd tell me it's only crashing by my standards and that he is just landing inside a wall. I don't have time to play semantics or explain logic to you.

sunshineduck
10-22-2010, 04:15 AM
Like I already said, I've already read the entire thread and I have yet to find one person that agrees with your idea that the goal-circler is a troll and not just a bad player. Again, it is just you thinking that the player in question is throwing games and is not just a bad player that needs to learn. You call them trolls because you view them as such, and you expect the administrators to act according to your view of these players.

And while you are very good at not addressing your own idiotic "I'll just not report something I feel is in violation of the rules, that'll show them!" mentality, I feel that you should probably take a break from attacking what you feel is a lax policy towards bad players that you think are intentionally throwing games and realize that you are wrong.

The guy flying in circles in front of his goal is more or less the same as the guy diving incessantly after turrets - while contributing nothing at all towards team pushes and base/goal defense, the circling guy is presumably going to be able to catch any long shots towards the goal and pass it out. Now, if the goal camping guy in question catches the ball, continues circling, then dies and gives the enemy team a free goal, that could be construed as throwing the game and the admin would, in my opinion, be obligated to ban the player accordingly. From what guava was saying, it seems to me that the player in question responded decently well to guava's advice and improved to a level that guava felt was satisfactory. Regardless of what you feel is an acceptable level of play in order to be counted as a contributing member of a team, your opinion is clearly not what the admin team is basing its policy on.

This all comes back to the point I've been trying to make this entire time while you whined about bad players being trolls and dismissed my comments as me not reading an entire thread. You saw one case in which a ladder admin talked to a player that was playing badly in an attempt to turn him towards team based objectives, felt that the admin dealt with the player in an inadequate fashion, then in a completely separate case where another player "ruined three other games" you decided that you would simply not report it at all, thought that you did a job well done, and that you were proving a valuable point of some sort. The point is -drumroll please-...

Stop being such an obnoxious, stuck-up, boneheaded prick. Just because a player does not live up to what you feel is an acceptable level of play does not mean that he is intentionally throwing games or trying to troll the denizens of ladder. You say that you are not one of those elitists that wants to ban bad players from ladder, but in the same post you are accusing players that are indeed playing badly of being trolls to justify your means of getting them banned. If you dress up a lost kitten in a wolf costume and shoot it in the head, aren't you still shooting an adorable, tiny bundle of cuteness?

drunkguava
10-22-2010, 04:27 AM
If you dress up a lost kitten in a wolf costume and shoot it in the head, aren't you still shooting an adorable, tiny bundle of cuteness?

you're a wordsmith.

anyway let's put this to rest. If this guy is indeed a troll, he'll be banned in short order. I posted in the ladder admins site to make sure that people know who he is, and he'll get rocked if need be.

In the future, please post if you feel like someone deserves a ban. Frankly, if you had just told me that there was a guy goal circling and I hadn't been in the server at the time to talk to the guy, I probably would have just given him a short ban right there. I'm not going to hunt him down to give him a lesson on how to play ball. Admins are here to promote a fun and competitive ladder atmosphere (and balance the two), and we're trying our best to do just that. If you don't like how we're doing things, then I suggest posting without rubbing people (specifically the very ones who can help you) the wrong way.
xoxo

elxir
10-22-2010, 04:52 AM
short posts are short...

tgleaf
10-22-2010, 05:01 AM
Also, don't forget I was quoting tgleaf's post suggesting to request a ban on people playing really bad.

And just to be clear about what I mean -- since I'm a ladder admin as well -- if a player is obviously trolling (to me, that means that she/he is chatting "look what I can do with reverse" or "watch me throw this game" etc...) then a ban is in order. If a player is just bad... then it depends. How so? If I'm playing with a player who is bad, I'll ask them to change ("Please stay out of the goal and attack the enemy," "Stop circling" etc...) ONCE. If they fail to do so, I'll ban them. Like guava said earlier, I have no patience for someone who won't listen or try to improve. But a bad player, period? Someone who is trying their hardest but isn't that good? To me, that's not ban-worthy.

Beagle
10-22-2010, 05:16 AM
Do you remember turretnator or any of those people in official who think they're helping their team win by going after turrets? Do you think they are simply trolls and purposely throwing the game? Not at all. They absolutely 100% think they are helping their team. They just haven't come to realize what they need to do yet.


IMO bad example as Turretnator is a badass who devoted his life to destroying turrets so nobody else had to

Good man

Sunaku
10-22-2010, 06:39 AM
Like I already said, I've already read the entire thread and I have yet to find one person that agrees with your idea that the goal-circler is a troll and not just a bad player.
Ask and you shall receive (or just read the damn thread).
Guava i have to agree with Sunaku. (weird right?) That guy (hades) was literally circling the goal while i was there. He ended with a whale ratio of 15-1 i think it was. You think it is wrong that a whale has the least kills but a 15 ratio?

The game after that he was flying toward enemy goal with the ball. 4 teammates in front of him. Most of the other team was dead. the score was 5-5. he coulda passed and ended the game.

Yet he chose to hold the ball, therefore allowing the other team to kill him, steal it, and get the winning goal. i think he may have had like 20 kills that game while i had somewhere around 40.. Big difference..
Don't forget to treat that burn, SSD.

Or wait, maybe you expect all the 15 people from the ladder at that moment to come here and rally for one troll ?

As for the troll detector, allow me to give you one more quote from that thread you claim you read.
Regarding the newbie excuse, it doesn't apply for multiple reasons. First, during that game, I asked the guy if he could fly closer to his goal and even in his goal, and as expected his troll DNA couldn't resist the suggestion. Second, he already threw a game earlier by spending half of it stalling or crashing because he thought chatting was more important.
Of course you conveniently missed those parts. Bad luck I guess, eh ? But you're absolutely right, I have a grudge against that Hades I never met before and I was so lucky to have him goal circle camping and chatting whole games, so that it gave a reason to finally have him banned.

I know you're quite the specialist when it comes to talking about things you didn't witness and you make a habit of trying to disguise your assumptions as facts. The problem is that you just need to stop talking for two simple reasons : you weren't there and you clearly didn't read my posts. All your essays based on your guess or your assumptions won't change that and weight as much as thin air.

Now I suggest you do yourself a favor and you stop posting about things you have no clue about.

Edit : forgot to underline important words like you, I guess it gives credibility.

drunkguava
10-22-2010, 06:47 AM
Regarding the newbie excuse, it doesn't apply for multiple reasons. First, during that game, I asked the guy if he could fly closer to his goal and even in his goal, and as expected his troll DNA couldn't resist the suggestion. Second, he already threw a game earlier by spending half of it stalling or crashing because he thought chatting was more important.

He's probably a kid, dude. When you asked him to circle closer to the goal, he did. When I asked him to stop chatting and play, he did. When I asked him to stop circling, guess what? He did! Instead of telling him to circle more, you could've always just asked him to stop...

Give it a rest. Let's all be done with this please.

Sunaku
10-22-2010, 07:08 AM
He's probably a kid, dude. When you asked him to circle closer to the goal, he did. When I asked him to stop chatting and play, he did. When I asked him to stop circling, guess what? He did! Instead of telling him to circle more, you could've always just asked him to stop...

Give it a rest. Let's all be done with this please.
[22:06] {arr}Sunaku: Hades, if you fly one more time in circle in front of your goal, you unlock an achievement
[22:06] {arr}Sunaku: aww, so close
[22:06] [Team] {Ball} AngHell [REV]: i think that when they score a lot of fast goals will fall
[22:06] {ZB}{MC}Hades. 7.0: cool
[22:06] Vesuvius: wtf lag
[22:06] [Team] {Ball} AngHell [REV]: u c
[22:06] {ZB}{MC}Hades. 7.0: aw
[22:06] =Patateh=: np
[22:06] (T.T)Smushface: hahaha
[22:06] {ZB}{MC}Hades. 7.0: gj
[22:06] (T.T)Smushface: owned
[22:06] SuperFifou: n1
[22:06] [Team] AH| {PM} shmo55: good call
[22:06] Vesuvius: wtf
[22:06] Vesuvius: r u doing
[22:06] {ZB}{MC}Hades. 7.0: lol
[22:06] [Team] {arr}Sunaku: jokes aside, can you admin Hades' face please ?
[22:06] [Team] {arr}Sunaku: people flying in circles tend to make me violent
[22:06] [Team] {balL*] guava: i'll watch him
[22:06] [Team] {arr}Sunaku: just watch now
[22:07] [Team] {balL*] guava: yeah if he keeps doing that i'll warn him
[22:07] {ZB}{MC}Hades. 7.0: i want that achievment
[Later, same game...]
[22:08] {ZB}{MC}Hades. 7.0: what about ovals
[Later, same game...]
[22:10] {ZB}{MC}Hades. 7.0: I CROSSED HALF

Not a troll, sure Guava, sure.
Anyway, I'm done. Having to go through all this crap, all these personal attacks, just to have admins apply their own rules is too much energy lost. Sorry for the people craving for more drama.

mikesol
10-22-2010, 07:17 AM
Sunaku -

I'd like to point out that through all of this you have been attacking many of those who disagrees with you. Even after I've tried to be reasonable and explain the different viewpoints - you still have generally ignored those and resorted to attacking more people. You should realize that it is impossible to get anywhere when rage starts to occur.

SSD and Guava -

You also have been going ad hominem on Sunaku. Likewise that is not a way to get your opinions across and will just result in more rage. I don't want to see this get any more out of hand.

Thus

Thread closed.