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View Full Version : Sky League, not a world cup, plz fix


Wyrd
01-06-2011, 07:23 PM
CCN, first of all {ARR}, the Sky Pirates, would like to thank you and your fellow SL admins for all the work you have done and do to create a ball league. Having leagues is much more fun than just scrimming, thank you.

And now it's time for the inevitable but.

Since there's no EU, or other non-American SL server and the rules don't provide another way to play on a non-American server, other than both teams agreeing to it*, we and all the other European clans currently playing in SL with us, are of the opinion that the current full title of SL, "The All World 3rd Sky league Ball World Cup", is flawed.
The repeated "World" part in the title gives the appearance of everyone in the world being on an equal footing in this World Cup tournament, which is most definitely not the case. Because all the servers are located in America, teams consisting mostly or entirely of non-American players suffer from lag, some very badly, while the American teams have hardly any. Not very "World" cup.

*: In the AH vs ARR match we played one game on an EU server (thanks for agreeing to play an EU server game, AH) after two ARR losses, resulting in a win for ARR, after which we promptly and officially returned to the APL server because AH understandably couldn't handle the lag. US teams are unlikely to agree with playing on non-official EU servers because it gives them lag, and lag sucks, do not want! AH's exclamations during the EU server match echoed our own on the APL servers, basically "WTF, I had that!" and "Lag sucks!".

I can, after some breathing exercises, handle being defeated, even, eventually, being defeated in a way that makes it seem like we dropped the soap in a prison shower (thanks Ball). I find it a lot harder to accept a loss when it's due (perhaps only partially) to circumstances beyond our control, like the lag. Especially so when this disadvantage is unacknowledged and even in a way actively denied as it is by "The All World 3rd Sky league Ball World Cup".

We kindly request you to either rename the full title of the Sky League, to acknowledge the fact that it takes place on American servers and not servers around the world, making it a home game for US teams, and an out game, with a disadvantage for non-American teams who participate; "The 3rd Sky league Ball Cup" would work just fine, even better would be "The 3rd Sky League American Ball Cup" or variations thereof.
Or, and this option is much preferred, please incorporate non-American servers into the World Sky League to make it a true World Cup. The Arr and Air private servers can be used for this purpose. Provide fair World Cup Home & Away rules that would even the playing field by giving everyone a piece of the lag cake. The Home and Away rules (https://sites.google.com/site/euroablcup/proposition-for-rules) from Dougie's aptly named "European Altitude Ball League Cup" are quite suitable for this purpose.

Signed,
Wyrd for {ARR}

Supported by
=AIR=, F.C. & -={8}=-


TLDR:
The All World 3rd Sky league Ball World Cup is not an All World World Cup. It's an American Home Game Advantage League due to the server locations. Rename it to show this fact or rather please fix it so that everyone eventually gets a piece of the lag pie.

TLDR for people who want to troll:
Waaaah! ARR lost, I blame lag! Make lag go away.

mlopes
01-06-2011, 08:08 PM
+1

10chars

shmo55
01-06-2011, 08:39 PM
Why don't we just alternate between EU and US servers for the different tourneys

sunshineduck
01-06-2011, 08:59 PM
unfortunately, this is not a problem that can be easily solved.

the ladder servers, official servers, and both ball dojos are located in the US: the only servers that I know of that have high traffic and are located in the EU are the {arr} servers, the =AIR= private servers, and ledow's football. clearly the location of the servers is an issue, but I feel that CCN handled it the best way he could - by allowing usage of non-APL euro servers if both teams agree. by sheer circumstance, EU players are consistently playing with lag on the more densely populated US servers, ladder especially so. forcing US teams to play a set number of games on EU servers is pretty unfair considering that your homefield advantage on the EU servers will be greater because US players never have to play with lag and it would thus ruin the entire team's timing. while this is no fault of yours, the fact that you consistently have to play with lag and are thusly quite used to it means that it's much more unfair for US-based teams to have to play on EU servers than the other way around.

please don't try to argue the semantics of it being a "world" cup. the actual world cup is played in one country and one country alone every four years, and not every country participating in the cup gets a chance to host it. i don't mind if you want to argue the parity forcing US players to play on EU servers, but using the name of the tournament as a basis of your argument is rather silly. let's stick to more fundamental arguments, shall we?

Wyrd
01-06-2011, 09:42 PM
unfortunately, this is not a problem that can be easily solved.

Yes, it is, let games be played on the =Air= and {Arr} private servers. We're happy to host them. And not just when both teams agree, but with the EU ABL cup Home and Away rules.


by sheer circumstance, EU players are consistently playing with lag on the more densely populated US servers, ladder especially so.

This is just not true. There's traffic on the European servers, because we like playing there, without lag, and we play on them a lot. I know plenty of European players who avoid ladder because of the lag there. Maybe you play mostly during US evenings, when EU servers are quieter, and thus those Europeans still awake and playing are forced to the US servers, and this is skewing your perception.

forcing US teams to play a set number of games on EU servers is pretty unfair considering that your homefield advantage on the EU servers will be greater because US players never have to play with lag and it would thus ruin the entire team's timing. while this is no fault of yours, the fact that you consistently have to play with lag and are thusly quite used to it means that it's much more unfair for US-based teams to have to play on EU servers than the other way around.

I see plenty of American players play on European servers, I'm sure they can handle ruined timing as well as European players.
Even the European ladder players are used to usually playing on a team with a mix of high and low ping, and playing against a team that is also a mix. Having their entire team lag versus a lag-free team ruins their timing just as much. And like I said, your statement that "EU players are consistently playing with lag" is just not true.


please don't try to argue the semantics of it being a "world" cup. the actual world cup is played in one country and one country alone every four years, and not every country participating in the cup gets a chance to host it. i don't mind if you want to argue the parity forcing US players to play on EU servers, but using the name of the tournament as a basis of your argument is rather silly. let's stick to more fundamental arguments, shall we?

The actual world cup is on the internet? Where there's no hour-long flights required to switch locations, only a few mouse clicks? Please don't try to make an inept analogy.

sunshineduck
01-06-2011, 10:19 PM
Yes, it is, let games be played on the =Air= and {Arr} private servers. We're happy to host them. And not just when both teams agree, but with the EU ABL cup Home and Away rules.

my statement wasn't in regard to lack of servers to play on, it was referring to the fact that US players have a distinct disadvantage playing on EU servers as opposed to the opposite.

This is just not true. There's traffic on the European servers, because we like playing there, without lag, and we play on them a lot. I know plenty of European players who avoid ladder because of the lag there. Maybe you play mostly during US evenings, when EU servers are quieter, and thus those Europeans still awake and playing are forced to the US servers, and this is skewing your perception.

selective quoting is fun, isn't it? i am fully aware of the fact that there are highly populated EU servers, as i pointed it in the part of my paragraph that you so handily decided to leave out. as an active member of &Twisted&, i can say with confidence that not one of our members plays on EU servers consistently and typically not at all unless it is absolutely unavoidable while still playing Altitude, and playing on an EU server would bork our timing substantially. unless the entire point of this thread is to nerf us, in which case i am fully willing to accept this handicap and stomp on your faces assuming you are willing to admit you are scared of us. weenies. :D


I see plenty of American players play on European servers, I'm sure they can handle ruined timing as well as European players.

This is just not true. There's traffic on the US servers, because we like playing there, without lag, and we play on them a lot. I know plenty of US players who avoid euro servers because of the lag there. Maybe you play mostly during EU evenings, when US servers are quieter, and thus those US players at home and playing are forced to the EU servers, and this is skewing your perception.

Even the European ladder players are used to usually playing on a team with a mix of high and low ping, and playing against a team that is also a mix. Having their entire team lag versus a lag-free team ruins their timing just as much. And like I said, your statement that "EU players are consistently playing with lag" is just not true.

my internet is being pretty spotty so i can't actually run the numbers at the moment, but i'm willing to bet that the average ladder games played among the active EU teams is pretty high. internet permitting, i will have something here (or there) in the future.

The actual world cup is on the internet? Where there's no hour-long flights required to switch locations, only a few mouse clicks? Please don't try to make an inept analogy.

like i've said, i don't really care that you're arguing this point. i'd just prefer that you don't use the name of the league as a crutch to support your argument.

from my point of view, skyleague has already done plenty to accomodate EU players. best coast US players have to show up to skyleague games at 11:00 AM and sometimes earlier with prelims on sundays when many of them have to go to church. if we do end up with designated games played on EU servers, i'd like to request a time for those games that is more fair for US players.

Ajuk999
01-06-2011, 10:21 PM
+1 to all of what SSD said. I might type an essay later...


Especially about the times of the matches, for those of us who live on the worst coast/west coast (see what I did there) in order to make matches we would have to wake up at ridiculous times. I can't even commit to SL3 because the times are so darn early.


EDIT:



Would it be very practical if a US team joined a EU league and whined about playing on EU servers?

What do you expect a US league to do? To cater to US or EU teams and players? OF course they are going to build the league around what works best for US teams from servers to times. US leagues priority is US and likewise with EU leagues don't you think?

EDIT2: I think it's an All World Cup if teams from all over the world are playing in it. It's actually an invite to EU teams and it shows how kind us Americans are whereas a EU league was made without any acknowledging of US teams AFAIK.

If the name is changed to "The 3rd Sky League American Ball Cup" then EU teams should have nothing to do with it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you want the name of the league to be changed (silly) but you would still like to be involved in it right?

EDIT3: Weren't the games in which {arr} won SL1 played on US servers? I know they were supposed to. IF so, why should they effect you guys now? Like your loss against AH?

Ajuk999
01-06-2011, 10:46 PM
Also Wyrd, the same type of attitude you created this thread with is the same type you'll get back until a mod eventually closes the thread.

Hoss Delgado
01-06-2011, 10:58 PM
this is why i say someone should make servers in Greenland...

rojo
01-06-2011, 11:01 PM
Also Wyrd, the same type of attitude you created this thread with is the same type you'll get back until a mode eventually closes the thread.

I was going to respond to some of your points, then I realized that its totally useless. Oh, and before you respond with saying tVo/// der whatever: http://tinyurl.com/39x5w6


SSD & Wyrd- I agree with both of you on points. Yes, EU players have more 'practice' playing with lag so they would have an 'advantage' of dealing with lag, but consider how silly that statement is. I, for one, wouldn't have a problem playing on EU servers or splitting series between teams. That's because I simply don't give a ****.

Ajuk999
01-06-2011, 11:08 PM
I was going to respond to some of your points, then I realized that its totally useless. Oh, and before you respond with saying tVo/// der whatever: http://tinyurl.com/39x5w6


SSD & Wyrd- I agree with both of you on points. Yes, EU players have more 'practice' playing with lag so they would have an 'advantage' of dealing with lag, but consider how silly that statement is. I, for one, wouldn't have a problem playing on EU servers or splitting series between teams. That's because I simply don't give a ****.
Oh rojo you scare me. It's useless? Perhaps if you know calling names doesn't work. Oh and rojo, last time I checked we were talking about US and EU, not rojo. In other words, it doesn't really make a difference if you are okay with it.

sunshineduck
01-06-2011, 11:20 PM
I don't really care either way, I'm merely pointing out the fallacy of asking for "equal" treatment when in actuality you are asking for preferential treatment.

mlopes
01-06-2011, 11:24 PM
+1 to all of what SSD said. I might type an essay later...


Especially about the times of the matches, for those of us who live on the worst coast/west coast (see what I did there) in order to make matches we would have to wake up at ridiculous times. I can't even commit to SL3 because the times are so darn early.


EDIT:



Would it be very practical if a US team joined a EU league and whined about playing on EU servers?

What do you expect a US league to do? To cater to US or EU teams and players? OF course they are going to build the league around what works best for US teams from servers to times. US leagues priority is US and likewise with EU leagues don't you think?

EDIT2: I think it's an All World Cup if teams from all over the world are playing in it. It's actually an invite to EU teams and it shows how kind us Americans are whereas a EU league was made without any acknowledging of US teams AFAIK.

If the name is changed to "The 3rd Sky League American Ball Cup" then EU teams should have nothing to do with it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you want the name of the league to be changed (silly) but you would still like to be involved in it right?

EDIT3: Weren't the games in which {arr} won SL1 played on US servers? I know they were supposed to. IF so, why should they effect you guys now? Like your loss against AH?

Did you even read what wyrd wrote or you just started making noise to avoid
playing on EU servers? None of the things you speak are refered by wyrd on his post. HE complains about the ping, not about the time, and the fact that the league assumes itself as World, not US.

Ajuk999
01-06-2011, 11:31 PM
Of course I don't want to play on EU servers! He doesn't want to play on US servers either though! That's what I'm arguing against.

Did you read my post?

sunshineduck
01-06-2011, 11:31 PM
Did you even read what wyrd wrote or you just started making noise to avoid
playing on EU servers? None of the things you speak are refered by wyrd on his post. HE complains about the ping, not about the time, and the fact that the league assumes itself as World, not US.

he was responding to my post when talking about the time of the games, and he actually does have a point in regards to this tournament being open to the world as opposed to a US-only tournament. it's pretty impossible to balance it perfectly in regards to timeslot/ping considering that the perfect time for US-based players (early evening) is well past midnight in most euro countries. i feel that the fact that we are in a terrible time slot is compensated by the fact that we don't have to play at 120+ ping, and forcing both upon us isn't quite equal. this is why i suggested that the US gets a preferable time slot if we do have a euro server-based tourney or matches in SL3.

Goose
01-06-2011, 11:53 PM
Since ball matches are conducted as 6v6, i propose that in Skyleague 4 every team is required to have at least 3 US players and 3 Euro players playing for their team during each match. This way the lag is evenly distributed for each team and the tourney is as fair and balanced as possible.

Wyrd
01-06-2011, 11:54 PM
EDIT: Also Wyrd, the same type of attitude you created this thread with is the same type you'll get back until a mode eventually closes the thread.

A politely worded request? I can't believe this thread has not been locked already!

Of course I don't want to play on EU servers! He doesn't want to play on US servers either though! That's what I'm arguing against.

Did you read my post?

No, I want to play on both. Did you read my post?

EDIT2: Would it be very practical if a US team joined a EU league and whined about playing on EU servers?

What do you expect a US league to do?

So it is a US league? Thanks. I wouldn't complain about lag if I joined a US league. But SL calls itself a world league.

EU cup did not invite US teams (I think, I cannot speak for Dougie with certainty) because he did not want them to have to deal with the lag, and because he wanted to keep his first tourney small. He said something along the lines of it being fine for tvo to field a team with US players if they really wanted/needed to.

If the name is changed to "The 3rd Sky League American Ball Cup" then EU teams should have nothing to do with it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you want the name of the league to be changed (silly) but you would still like to be involved in it right?

EDIT3: Weren't the games in which {arr} won SL1 played on US servers? I know they were supposed to. IF so, why should they effect you guys now? Like your loss against AH?

Yes, I think the name should be changed, you read that correctly. I guess just dropping the world bit would be better than adding American, since that does somewhat indicate no EU involvement, you have a point there.

We have gotten several players since SL1 whose ping is way in the red on US servers.

i can say with confidence that not one of our members plays on EU servers consistently and typically not at all unless it is absolutely unavoidable while still playing Altitude, and playing on an EU server would bork our timing substantially.
And I'm saying the same is true for many/most(?) European players, and that all our timings should be borked in turn, and neither get preferential lag-treatment.

Regarding the inconvenient time slots, I'll grant you that those can suck. Don't have a good idea how to solve that. Maybe games start a bit later and fewer of them in a day?

Since ball matches are conducted as 6v6, i propose that in Skyleague 4 every team is required to have at least 3 US players and 3 Euro players playing for their team during each match. This way the lag is evenly distributed for each team and the tourney is as fair and balanced as possible.

But this means we'll have to recruit Americans, and they keep leaving the clan to found their own... ;)

MajorPayne257
01-07-2011, 12:03 AM
Since ball matches are conducted as 6v6, i propose that in Skyleague 4 every team is required to have at least 3 US players and 3 Euro players playing for their team during each match. This way the lag is evenly distributed for each team and the tourney is as fair and balanced as possible.

Absolutely not. I like the effort though.

drunkguava
01-07-2011, 01:50 AM
Lag blows. When we scrimmed arr the week before SL3.1, we got manhandled the first couple games because we were not used to playing with that lag as a team. I play on the arr servers a decent amount, but I never really play much with my {ball} team. We got better at it and played arr a lot closer the next few games, but there is an obvious disadvantage when most/all of your players have orange/red pings (considering the result on US servers during SL3.1).

At the same time, Euro players definitely have a lot more practice playing with high pings than US players, that is not debatable. With dojo and ladder servers in the US that's a fact. However, Euro players don't play as a team (or even with so many other orange/red pings) very often at all.

So while I do think that Euros have some advantage playing with high ping, I don't actually know how great it is because they rarely if ever play as a team on US servers. I don't know dougie's home/away rules, and I'm too lazy too look them up (or scroll up to reread your post to see if you mentioned them), but I think I'd be ok with doing a US-EU-US split in bo3s and US-EU-US-EU-US in bo5s. I think this would be a good compromise.

Mortva
01-07-2011, 01:56 AM
please don't try to argue the semantics of it being a "world" cup. the actual world cup is played in one country and one country alone every four years, and not every country participating in the cup gets a chance to host it.
Well, teams have to move their butts to the host country but then they play under equal conditions. AFAIR I've seen neither the US nor Germany's team lag when they played in Africa, nor anywhere else.

---

However, the tone of some of the above postings suggests that some of you might have the impression that we were just whining about lag and how badly we were treated etc. Yet that is not the case, respectively not the intention of the OP. Let's please try (and I'm not looking at anyone specifically) to keep this debate open-minded.

---

EDIT:
However, Euro players don't play as a team (or even with so many other orange/red pings) very often at all.

That's an interesting point because IMO playing with a non-lagging team while oneself (as a single player) is lagging seems not as bad as playing with the whole team lagging like hell.

drunkguava
01-07-2011, 02:03 AM
That's an interesting point because IMO playing with a non-lagging team while oneself (as a single player) is lagging seems not as bad as playing with the whole team lagging like hell.

that's my point ;). That's why I'd be willing to compromise.

Edited original post to make it more clear that that's what I was trying to say.

elxir
01-07-2011, 02:04 AM
{ball} lost two scrims to {arr} on euro servers

{arr} lost to {ball} on USA servers

lol lag amirite

Mortva
01-07-2011, 02:16 AM
{ball} lost two scrims to {arr} on euro servers

{arr} lost to {ball} on USA servers

lol lag amirite
On that evening, {ball} played better than us anyway, no matter what the ping. The latter made it only very much worse.

Ajuk999
01-07-2011, 02:32 AM
AH lost to {arr} on our worst map and on their server, not by far, but we did. If it was a different map we would've won. So I can understand how they feel about us winning on US servers and them winning on EU servers.

banana
01-07-2011, 02:42 AM
Lag is a double edged sword. Use its advantages and they should help mitigate the disadvantages.


If everyone is still raging just hold a tournament held on US servers. Next season hold it on EU servers.

sunshineduck
01-07-2011, 02:44 AM
i think since this sky league is all about individual tournaments that we should just have a couple all EU server tournaments if we're gonna compromise.

the biggest issue with using EU servers is that the =AIR= and {arr} server administrators are numerous and that none of the skyleague admins to my knowledge have admin powers in these servers. this will definitely be problematic as far as crowd control and general admin powers go.

CCN
01-07-2011, 02:50 AM
If this is peoples biggest complaints over skyleague then I think its doing a great job.
Honestly I chose the name to be a bit of fun, and naming conventions (ergo. miss world, World Series of Baseball) arn't strictly literal.

Please take it in such a sense. If you can't, take it in the sense that Skyleague is a ball tourney with players and teams from all over the world.

The high level game has been developed and played on US servers, with people playing on US timings for a long time now. The kind of move to a split server set is a big one, and one that I feel is disruptive as no team can get into a rhythm with their team members ping on a week to week basis.


However, on its 3rd season I have become a bit attached to the name.

Tekn0
01-07-2011, 04:07 AM
People often make it (not pointing to anyone here) that only the person who is lagging has an advantage but it is not so. I've been playing for the last 3 months from Asia with pretty high pings (200-300) and many times you cannot pick up the ball, you score a goal it hits the inside of the goal and bounces and an opponent simply picks it up and throws it like it never went in and you can no longer receive or send passes with accuracy. Last minute Randa goal steals no longer work, And NO, you do NOT get used to it after time, it is STILL a pain when such things happens, what you get used to is handling the bounce off walls and collecting the ball which is out of sync with the screen to a certain degree.

The plane that I find the most difficult to lag is Randa (not just TA) because I rely on bursts of speed with frantic fast wall bounce passes etc. No other plane needs lower pings like a Randa. I've played the loopy, biplane, and exploded and definitely "easier" (comparitively) with higher pings. But with Randa, even after months of playing I still miss some bounce pickups compared to when I had 20-30 pings. Randa being the fastest ball mover definitely needs lower pings.

Again I'm not accusing anyone in particular at all, but many times people think the person who is lagging has a huge advantage which isn't true.

The worst part is whenever you -do- something like a score a goal people immediately look at your ping and shout "hey nice ping, lagger" even though it wasn't clearly a ping spike. This is probably the most irritating aspect of lagging. I can't wait to get back to my 30-ish pings in EU servers.

Again I'm just venting some frustration from playing in pubs and the distant intertoob connects.

End rant :P

beefheart
01-07-2011, 10:04 AM
FACT1: US-based teams currently have an advantage over EU-based teams

FACT2: Fact 1 is due to US based teams play with less lag.

FACT3: To say, like SSD, that threating teams equal, is actually not threating teams equal is logically wrong.

Fact 4: guava's compromis of playing us-eu-us (bo3) or us-eu-us-eu-us (bo5) will not threat clans equal.

Solution: Arrange the tourney according to home-away rules.

US teams will have to get used to not be threated preferential, this is called adaptation. Adaption can be reached by more often scrim eu teams on eu servers, so you get used to playing with lag like the europeans do (guava is right that its about team experience with lag, not individual lag). This takes time, so start with it in SL4.

Yours sincerly,

Beefy

sunshineduck
01-07-2011, 10:46 AM
FACT1: US-based teams currently have an advantage over EU-based teams

FACT2: Fact 1 is due to US based teams play with less lag.

FACT3: To say, like SSD, that threating teams equal, is actually not threating teams equal is logically wrong.

Fact 4: guava's compromis of playing us-eu-us (bo3) or us-eu-us-eu-us (bo5) will not threat clans equal.

Solution: Arrange the tourney according to home-away rules.

US teams will have to get used to not be threated preferential, this is called adaptation. Adaption can be reached by more often scrim eu teams on eu servers, so you get used to playing with lag like the europeans do (guava is right that its about team experience with lag, not individual lag). This takes time, so start with it in SL4.

Yours sincerly,

Beefy

I don't think fact means what you think it means.

as pointed out earlier in this thread, the fact that US teams have a godawful time slot is a huge disadvantage that is balanced by the fact that we get to play on US servers. forcing us to play at a crappy time while euro players play in early evening along with playing with 30 ping is extremely unfair.

you have to understand that from my point of view this thread is nothing but stupid lagwhine. you signed up your team under the rules written far in advance of the first tournament games played. you had no such objections prior to losing in the first round to a team you felt bested you only because of ping, and all of a sudden the US teams have an unfair advantage. you agreed to playing on US servers unless both teams agreed otherwise when you signed your team up to play, suck it up or don't sign up for future tournaments imo.

mlopes
01-07-2011, 11:00 AM
About 90% or more of the scrims =AIR= ever played were in EU servers, and we scrim a lot.

nuff said about euro clans being used to play on US servers.

PS: I played on dojo 1 time (and I play altitude for 1 year and almost 3 months) and that was because krawz told me that the only way I had to check if one of his maps was the last version was to compare it to the dojo version.

mlopes
01-07-2011, 11:02 AM
If this is peoples biggest complaints over skyleague then I think its doing a great job.

And that's your conclusion from this thread... that's really perceptive, you should be a police detective.

Premier Stalin
01-07-2011, 11:08 AM
Jeez how about you create ur own league then. Oh wait.

I dont see why this is a massive problem, lag works both ways.

CCN&co. bothered to make the tourney, I'd just stop complaining.

beefheart
01-07-2011, 11:12 AM
US teams have a godawful time slot is a huge disadvantage that is balanced by the fact that we get to play on US servers.


So far US teams has had no problems what so ever to come up with approximately their strongest teams at current times. So that argument does not stand imo.

EDIT:

@ stalin: It is just a suggestion to make the tourney more fair, i would not call it complaining. And ssd ofcourse its lag whining for Americans, for you guys its fine the way it is.

mlopes
01-07-2011, 11:15 AM
Jeez how about you create ur own league then. Oh wait.

I dont see why this is a massive problem, lag works both ways.

CCN&co. bothered to make the tourney, I'd just stop complaining.

If it works both ways why so much resistance about playing a few games on non-US servers?

Goose
01-07-2011, 11:19 AM
There is no solution that can be implemented this season in Skyleague 3 to accommodate both teams equally and fairly, as stuff like this takes time to develop and the first tournament has already been conducted. As a former player of a European based ball clan i can sympathize with both sides of the argument, however i think the rule set in place now in which teams can agree to play their matches on a EU based server is still the best solution at the moment. Guava brings up an interesting idea, but there is no way to rationally implement that sort of thing right now with the limited servers at our disposal, as well as the admin problems which would clearly occur that SSD mentioned.

With the recent success of Dougie's 1st EuroCup Ball League, i believe for the future we could divide the entire Altitude ball community into 2 separate sections:
-European based clans which only compete in Dougie's 2nd EuroCup Ball League

and

- US based clans which only compete in SkyLeague 4

Then we take the winner of each tournament and have them face off in a B05 or B07 Championship Duel, that rotates between EU and US servers.

sunshineduck
01-07-2011, 11:27 AM
So far US teams has had no problems what so ever to come up with approximately their strongest teams at current times. So that argument does not stand imo.

this is certainly not true, at least not for twisted.

we barely managed to field a team of 6 for our first round freebie against cyber ballers (no disrespect intended, they're great guys who showed up en masse and graciously sat one when one of our players kept dropping) and had the games been an hour earlier, i'm almost certain that we would have had to forfeit. we had members absent for reasons related entirely to the crappy time slot (several were asleep, one was at church) that would have shown up had the games been early evening for us. i don't see how you can say that waking up at 9:00 AM to play in 10:00 scrims without warmup games is not a disadvantage.

you claim you want a "fair" compromise, but you completely ignore the fact that alternating servers between US and EU players heavily favors the EU unless the time slots are changed. i don't care about having to play with lag, but i'm for damn sure not waking up early on a sunday and skipping church so you can play without lag.

Dougie
01-07-2011, 11:29 AM
EU teams have had to deal with the lag problem throughout the sky league history. I have previously voiced my opinions on this, and was pointed out that the US servers are central for all players. Asians and south Americans get better ping rates in US servers than they do on the EU servers.

I don't see a reason to change this setup in sky league (well certainly not in this season anyway). The US servers are better catered for the community as a whole. I'm not certain splitting games US-EU-US would work, as each match becomes more of a mission having to change servers all the time. A home and away system could work, but in a knockout cup tournament, its difficult to allow a balance of all teams having an equal number of home and away matches.

Lag offers very little advantage, its only when you spike, you can cause serious problems, which can happen to either team. Lag however effects reactive times, and seriously effects timing of passes. It is something I have learnt to adjust to, although it is overall still a disadvantage.

On a side note, I am looking into the possibility for expanding the EABL with an AABL (American Altitude Ball League) running alongside it with the winners facing each other in a two leg match to be played in both the US and EU. I will be looking to speak to a few people about it to decide on the best format over the coming couple of months.

Dougie
01-07-2011, 11:33 AM
There is no solution that can be implemented this season in Skyleague 3 to accommodate both teams equally and fairly, as stuff like this takes time to develop and the first tournament has already been conducted. As a former player of a European based ball clan i can sympathize with both sides of the argument, however i think the rule set in place now in which teams can agree to play their matches on a EU based server is still the best solution at the moment. Guava brings up an interesting idea, but there is no way to rationally implement that sort of thing right now with the limited servers at our disposal, as well as the admin problems which would clearly occur that SSD mentioned.

With the recent success of Dougie's 1st EuroCup Ball League, i believe for the future we could divide the entire Altitude ball community into 2 separate sections:
-European based clans which only compete in Dougie's 2nd EuroCup Ball League

and

- US based clans which only compete in SkyLeague 4

Then we take the winner of each tournament and have them face off in a B05 or B07 Championship Duel, that rotates between EU and US servers.

Really like this proposal...

+1

BUT there is an obvious disadvantage, that a few clans have a good mixture of both EU and US players (tvo and ball).

mlopes
01-07-2011, 11:37 AM
On a side note, I am looking into the possibility for expanding the EABL with an AABL (American Altitude Ball League) running alongside it with the winners facing each other in a two leg match to be played in both the US and EU. I will be looking to speak to a few people about it to decide on the best format over the coming couple of months.

Love the idea, and judging from the 1st EABL, it has all the conditions to go well. Looking forward for it. :D

sunshineduck
01-07-2011, 11:52 AM
About 90% or more of the scrims =AIR= ever played were in EU servers, and we scrim a lot.

nuff said about euro clans being used to play on US servers.

PS: I played on dojo 1 time (and I play altitude for 1 year and almost 3 months) and that was because krawz told me that the only way I had to check if one of his maps was the last version was to compare it to the dojo version.

just ran the numbers:

average ladder games played by clan (calculated using submitted SL rosters):

{arr}: 411 (255 discounting Sunaku)
=AIR=: 218

average game time is 10 minutes per game, extrapolated it looks like this:

{arr}: 2 days, 20 hours, and 30 minutes
=AIR=: 1 day, 12 hours, and 16 minutes

on average of actual playtime in ladder on a US-based server.

are you really going to claim that you guys don't get enough playtime on US servers to have a distinct advantage over us? i think you'll be hard-pressed to find one US player that has spent that much time playing on an EU server, much less have a US-based team's average playtime on EU servers to be anywhere near that.

these numbers don't even include playtime on US servers that aren't ladder such as dojo and the officials.

http://www.erinjackson.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/cmon_son.jpg

CCN
01-07-2011, 11:54 AM
Mlopes, cut out the cattiness. This is actually a progressive debate which we don't need derailed by trolling/hate/immaturity.

Goose
01-07-2011, 11:59 AM
also guys just a quick heads up: {arr} won the 1st SkyLeague and they are European, so clearly the lag didn't affect em that much. In fact it could be argued that "lag" might of been the secret weapon in helping them win the entire tournament

mlopes
01-07-2011, 12:57 PM
just ran the numbers:

average ladder games played by clan (calculated using submitted SL rosters):

{arr}: 411 (255 discounting Sunaku)
=AIR=: 218

average game time is 10 minutes per game, extrapolated it looks like this:

{arr}: 2 days, 20 hours, and 30 minutes
=AIR=: 1 day, 12 hours, and 16 minutes

on average of actual playtime in ladder on a US-based server.

are you really going to claim that you guys don't get enough playtime on US servers to have a distinct advantage over us? i think you'll be hard-pressed to find one US player that has spent that much time playing on an EU server, much less have a US-based team's average playtime on EU servers to be anywhere near that.

these numbers don't even include playtime on US servers that aren't ladder such as dojo and the officials.

http://www.erinjackson.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/cmon_son.jpg

Now compare that with the sum of the total time played by every clan member. I don't play as much as many of my clan-mates and I alone have more than 700 play hours. That's about a month of playtime, compared with the 1.5 days for all =AIR= member, you found we played on ladder. Also =AIR= has at least 3 US (or is Matrin Canadian?) players and 1 Brazilian.

Also one of the main points someone was defending here is the fact that US clans aren't used to play together with high pings, so that excludes ladder.

mlopes
01-07-2011, 01:03 PM
also guys just a quick heads up: {arr} won the 1st SkyLeague and they are European, so clearly the lag didn't affect em that much. In fact it could be argued that "lag" might of been the secret weapon in helping them win the entire tournament

So are you saying that playing some games on euro servers would help US clans?

sunshineduck
01-07-2011, 01:19 PM
Now compare that with the sum of the total time played by every clan member. I don't play as much as many of my clan-mates and I alone have more than 700 play hours. That's about a month of playtime, compared with the 1.5 days for all =AIR= member, you found we played on ladder. Also =AIR= has at least 3 US (or is Matrin Canadian?) players and 1 Brazilian.

Also one of the main points someone was defending here is the fact that US clans aren't used to play together with high pings, so that excludes ladder.

that 700 total hours includes time spent idling without actually playing, the numbers I posted do not. the ratio of of hours playing ladder to overall hours is also irrelevant to your facade of an argument and in fact probably hurts it because in nearly 1500 hours including idle time i estimate that i've spent two, maybe three hours tops playing serious games in the EU servers.

these are the numbers i used when calculating:

{arr}
skYp: 11
Habeas: 671
Iderik: 68
Trix: 49
Wyrd: 228
Sunaku: 2451
akkargutt: 51
Mortva: 134
cipso: 911
Dim: 254
Micro: 45
Maleus: 420
Strzy: 419
Strong Coffee: 55

=AIR=
SPeciaL: 276
GUI.tar: 75
JWhatever: 295
Spart Evo: 204
Mandubienne: 305
PnutButterJelyTime: 73
Honn: 71
TheSquid&theWhale: 394
Dancingfatman: 136
Sukitox: 114
Patateh: 329
nicely: 316
Mystery: 202
Matrin: 256

please remove US players from that list as you see fit and I can readjust the numbers accordingly.

i'd like to request that you provide one US player playing in this league that isn't on a EU-based team that has played 36 hours and 16 minutes (or whatever the adjusted number will be) worth of at least semi-competitive ball in an EU server, and then ask yourself if his/her entire team averages that amount of time played in EU servers. if so, then you are correct in that EU players don't have an advantage over US players in regards to playing with ping.

rojo
01-07-2011, 01:24 PM
Mlopes, cut out the cattiness. This is actually a progressive debate which we don't need derailed by trolling/hate/immaturity.

I just read his posts and all I have to say is...

what?

mlopes
01-07-2011, 01:29 PM
that 700 total hours includes time spent idling without actually playing, the numbers I posted do not. the ratio of of hours playing ladder to overall hours is also irrelevant to your facade of an argument and in fact probably hurts it because in nearly 1500 hours including idle time i estimate that i've spent two, maybe three hours tops playing serious games in the EU servers.

these are the numbers i used when calculating:

{arr}
skYp: 11
Habeas: 671
Iderik: 68
Trix: 49
Wyrd: 228
Sunaku: 2451
akkargutt: 51
Mortva: 134
cipso: 911
Dim: 254
Micro: 45
Maleus: 420
Strzy: 419
Strong Coffee: 55

=AIR=
SPeciaL: 276
GUI.tar: 75
JWhatever: 295
Spart Evo: 204
Mandubienne: 305
PnutButterJelyTime: 73
Honn: 71
TheSquid&theWhale: 394
Dancingfatman: 136
Sukitox: 114
Patateh: 329
nicely: 316
Mystery: 202
Matrin: 256

please remove US players from that list as you see fit and I can readjust the numbers accordingly.

i'd like to request that you provide one US player playing in this league that isn't on a EU-based team that has played 36 hours and 16 minutes (or whatever the adjusted number will be) worth of at least semi-competitive ball in an EU server, and then ask yourself if his/her entire team averages that amount of time played in EU servers. if so, then you are correct in that EU players don't have an advantage over US players in regards to playing with ping.

Suki is brasilian. Nicely, Spart and Matrin and American.

sunshineduck
01-07-2011, 01:37 PM
Suki is brasilian. Nicely, Spart and Matrin and American.

adjusted numbers are 215.6 average games played per EU player on =AIR= on ladder.

iirc i rounded up from 217.7 to get to 218, so we'll round up again here:

1 day, 11 hours, 56 minutes average game time on ladder played

got a US-based team in mind that might average that on EU servers?

CCN
01-07-2011, 01:41 PM
I just read his posts and all I have to say is...

what?

And that's your conclusion from this thread... that's really perceptive, you should be a police detective.

Maybe he's being a dick just to me, at least its rectified now with the forums block feature to filter out his posts. But I guess thinking about it again his post didn't really deserve a response, or at best a "cool story bro". I guess I just wasted my own time :*(

mlopes
01-07-2011, 01:42 PM
adjusted numbers are 215.6 average games played per EU player on =AIR= on ladder.

iirc i rounded up from 217.7 to get to 218, so we'll round up again here:

1 day, 11 hours, 56 minutes average game time on ladder played

got a US-based team in mind that might average that on EU servers?

Do you have a way to get that info from any busy EU server?



PS: Forgot, SPeciaL is Asian, not EU. Although his ping sucks in US servers (200+) it sucks even more in EU servers (300+).

sunshineduck
01-07-2011, 01:51 PM
Do you have a way to get that info from any busy EU server?

not unless you have an interface that tracks games like ladder does, lol. the information is buried in the server logs somewhere afaik, but i have no idea how to extract the numbers from raw data.

i personally have no idea how much teams scrim on the private servers, all i know is that the only time i see members of my team or US members of tVo in an EU server it's only because nobody is in ladder and they are only too happy to leave - this leads me to believe that they're not playing too seriously. i know twisted hasn't scrimmed against EU teams on EU servers in a few months at least (maybe once since the last skyleague?), not sure about the goings-on of {ball} or tVo. unless you've been scrimming these US teams several times a month for hours at a time on EU servers, i seriously doubt that you'll find a team that has managed to play that many hours with "abnormal" ping.

EDIT: discounting special, your team averages 209 games played, or a total of 1 day, 10 hours, and 46 minutes of actual play time in ladder

sunshineduck
01-07-2011, 02:00 PM
i'd like to request that you provide one US player playing in this league that isn't on a EU-based team that has played 34 hours and 46 minutes worth of at least semi-competitive ball in an EU server, and then ask yourself if his/her entire team averages that amount of time played in EU servers. if so, then you are correct in that EU players don't have an advantage over US players in regards to playing with ping.

also, when you find this mythical beast please make sure to account for the fact that being present at a scrim isn't the same thing as playing in it, and that you are looking for someone who has actually played 34 hours and 46 minutes worth of competitive ball in a european server.

thanks in advance for your compliance and cheery demeanor

beefheart
01-07-2011, 02:02 PM
this is certainly not true, at least not for twisted.

Fair enough. Although {ball} and tvo in general didnt have a lot of trouble fielding a team (except for tvo last sunday, but i consider that an incident), i can see your point. Does not mean however, that the timeslot disadvantage completely offsets the lag disadvantage. So we still need to find solutions to make the league more fair.

A good idea is forwarded by goose and dougie imo, but there is a lot to be discussed about it. It might even change the current clan organisation imo. (ill open a new thread)

For SL3 i would say, continue. Everyone signed up under the current conditions. So lets change the conditions of SL4.

Sunaku
01-07-2011, 05:08 PM
i don't see how you can say that waking up at 9:00 AM to play in 10:00 scrims without warmup games is not a disadvantage.

I won't say the complaint about the time slot is not founded, but it's about as relevant to lag as bringing your country's social healthcare into the equation. While the debate has merits, it has absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand. The way you deal with your timetable is at your discretion, and as far as I know, no rules prevent you and your clan from waking up earlier to warm up. On the other hand, the current rules keep us from playing on a EU server unless "both teams agree". So not only is the time issue irrelevant to lag, it's also not even comparable.
Again, I'm not opposed to rethinking the schedules, but it sure is the wrong thread for this discussion, so it would be nice to stop derailing any further this one into a pirate raid on Christianity.

are you really going to claim that you guys don't get enough playtime on US servers to have a distinct advantage over us?
I will. The argument that the EU players are (more) accustomed to lag is largely exaggerated. What your out-of-context numbers fail to show is that the average amount of games played by each EU members is negligible when you confront it to the time the ladder has been running. About 200 games over 10 months is far from enough to handle lag correctly. And that's just the average, someone with thousands of ladder games compensates in no way someone who has a fraction of that amount.

The only little truth your numbers hold is that Arr and Air are the most active EU clans on ladder, but you can't conclude that our activity is representative of the whole EU ball scene. As you may have noticed, this request for fairer playing conditions is cosigned by Air, FC and 8-ball. Don't make the mistake of associating a few Europeans haunting ladder to the 60 or so forming the current competitve EU clans.
When you look at the big picture, you have to consider the fact that most players from those clans are not that much present on US servers whatsoever. As good as a server Dojo is, first, I'm not sure it's that much crowded with EUs and second, public servers are not really where we should look at for lag experience.

In fact, as it is has already been mentioned, even ladder is not the place of reference on that matter, because the consequence of its format is that the lag is scattered across all teams. Which is completly different from a whole team suffering overburnt pings facing a whole team of fresh-as-a-daisy pings. The only real indicator of lag habit would be scrims; and as far as they go, every clan is reluctant to play on laggy servers, so I don't think you can say any of them has enough team experience to handle the transatlantic lag, whichever side you pick.

Not to mention that a quick look (http://www.altitudeladder.net/matchlist.php?id=d68ff962-2cd4-4c8b-b5a7-8da8aeafe6ce&mode=ball_6v6) at the matchlist is enough to see that an average 10 minutes for games length is a fairly made-up number. So whether you look at the content or the form of the argument, it's not really significant. From there, you can surely save yourself the trouble of rounding up 217.7 to 218.

Wok3N^
01-07-2011, 05:42 PM
Europeans can make their own leagues on their own servers if they choose to. I know there was a euro league but it didn't allow American teams to play. CCN and I think its fair that if both teams settle on an agreement, they can play in Euro servers. Consider yourself lucky.

I suggest that both teams settle on an agreement before the round starts (lets say 1 euro game, 1 american) and take a screen shot of the agreement if an admin isn't there. This will prevent what happened last week with AH and arr when AH simply decided after playing on the EU server that they wanted to go back.

Thus, APL servers will remain the primary servers. End of discussion.

Evan20000
01-07-2011, 05:58 PM
+1 respect to Area 51 for not starting any silly **** like this in the APL games despite having most of their team not in America. :)

Sunaku
01-07-2011, 06:46 PM
Love the idea, and judging from the 1st EABL, it has all the conditions to go well. Looking forward for it. :D
I'm not so enthusiastic about the idea of splitting the tournament. Not to say that Dougie's league should disappear or that a purely US tournament shouldn't happen, but the competitive scene would feel incomplete without an ultimate event opened to everyone.
To me the purpose and most of the appeal of SkyLeague is the opportunity to face each and every clan out there. Well, at least I think it was the original intent, let's put aside the obstacles that lead to random brackets for now.

People say we have no ground to whine about lag because we signed for those rules, but agreeing to take part in a tournament doesn't mean we shouldn't give feedback to improve it. As much as servers are a touchy subject, it's no different than arguing the format, the substitutes, the maps or what have you.
If the point ot the original post has escaped them, the "fix" requested is not a rebranding but to give "World Cup SkyLeague" the tools to leave up to its name. Some of those tools would be fairer rules to acknowledge the worldwide and substantial population partaking in SkyLeague at the moment.

I realize that there is no perfect solution to lag, but we can at least try to come up with more equitable playing conditions for everyone, or "silly ****" as some like to call it. I think Guava's solution of changing servers midmatch would be a good start for this current edition.

In my opinion, there is also something to be done about the whole format that could make the league way fairer and more interesting for everyone. With "Home and Away" rules, the lag would be handled easily as each clan would face each other twice over the course of the tournament. Once on a US-ish server and once on EU-ish server. Basically, the idea would be to make this league a real league with a detailed point system, much like Dougie's EUABL. This way the tournament would be an on-going competition where every clan gets to meet all the others, and there could even be final playoffs to allow for a climactic ending between the first and second on the leaderboard.

This is actually a progressive debate which we don't need derailed by trolling/hate/immaturity.
The request for EU servers is as old as SkyLeague 1 and has been brought ever since, with for only answer every time "Yeah... No.". The progressive approach, now that nearly half the clans are EU-based, would be to seriously consider that point of view. I appreciate the time and efforts you've put in the SkyLeagues so far, but you can't pretend there is no issue here, and we're willing to help making SkyLeague the definitive ball competition it should be.

Consider yourself lucky.
[...]
End of discussion.
So much for the progressive debate, eh? Thanks for your input, M. SkyLeague Admin.
Don't worry, I'm still gonna pretend we can have a reasonable and open-minded discussion.

Wyrd
01-07-2011, 06:49 PM
Okay, it's clear to me that SL is and probably will remain a US league, despite its name. So I'll look forward to and try to help with the ideas quoted below becoming a reality.

So we still need to find solutions to make the league more fair.
A good idea is forwarded by goose and dougie imo, but there is a lot to be discussed about it. It might even change the current clan organisation imo. (ill open a new thread)

I think the league will have be a new league, as Dougie and Goose are suggesting.

There is no solution that can be implemented this season in Skyleague 3 to accommodate both teams equally and fairly, as stuff like this takes time to develop and the first tournament has already been conducted.[... ...]
With the recent success of Dougie's 1st EuroCup Ball League, i believe for the future we could divide the entire Altitude ball community into 2 separate sections:
-European based clans which only compete in Dougie's 2nd EuroCup Ball League

and

- US based clans which only compete in SkyLeague 4

Then we take the winner of each tournament and have them face off in a B05 or B07 Championship Duel, that rotates between EU and US servers.

Ow, but I like playing matches versus the US teams, I'd just like it more if we sometimes got to play them on our home turf.


On a side note, I am looking into the possibility for expanding the EABL with an AABL (American Altitude Ball League) running alongside it with the winners facing each other in a two leg match to be played in both the US and EU. I will be looking to speak to a few people about it to decide on the best format over the coming couple of months.

Any possibility of a mixed league, with your excellent Home and Away rules?
BUT there is an obvious disadvantage, that a few clans have a good mixture of both EU and US players (tvo and ball).
Do it for them? ;)

Wok3N^
01-07-2011, 06:59 PM
If any europeans want to donate their servers to skyleague during tournament season giving the SL admins moderating powers in them, then be my guest. APL has not had this debate before. The european clan, 51, respectfully played in APL without whining consistently about lag. They knew from the beginning it was a league only with American servers. Next sky league, we can work something out with euro server moderators but for now, it is too late.

And sunaku, I am sorry for ruining your extremely witty and open debate. It truly was high quality stuff. You should probably read the rest of my post oh wise one. I think I gave a good and fair suggestion.

sunshineduck
01-07-2011, 07:30 PM
I won't say the complaint about the time slot is not founded, but it's about as relevant to lag as bringing your country's social healthcare into the equation. While the debate has merits, it has absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand. The way you deal with your timetable is at your discretion, and as far as I know, no rules prevent you and your clan from waking up earlier to warm up. On the other hand, the current rules keep us from playing on a EU server unless "both teams agree". So not only is the time issue irrelevant to lag, it's also not even comparable.
Again, I'm not opposed to rethinking the schedules, but it sure is the wrong thread for this discussion, so it would be nice to stop derailing any further this one into a pirate raid on Christianity.

i'm not sure if you're aware of the importance of the time issue and how it relates to the server issue. the only reason we're forced to play in that godforsaken time slot is to accommodate the fact that having us play at the times that you're currently playing at in your respective countries would mean you having to wake up at 4 in the morning to chute some internet plains. yes, we could wake up at 7:30 in the morning and warm up until the matches start, but there is no way in hell that any player would want to sign up to play for your team if you're forcing them to wake up early on a sunday. as far as i know, i am the only sad little nerd on my team that bothers going to sleep at a reasonable time on saturday nights specifically to wake up early the next morning to hop on altitude, and i am perfectly fine with it being that way. skyleague since season 1 has always been slotted in perfect euro hours to play in the early evenings, and the US players have had to either suck it up or not play in the tournament. from our point of view, this is not directly related to the server we play on, but the fact that we at least get to play with low ping happens to counterbalance the scheduling issues fairly well.

try and imagine this from our perspective - let's say that hypothetically skyleague was made so that the matches were played entirely on EU servers unless both teams agree to play on a US server. however, the games were to be scheduled in favor of the US teams with it being early evening over in the states. you would have to wake up at (or stay up until) 2 AM to play in these matches. all of a sudden, the US teams are tired of playing with lag and want to play half their matches on the states-side servers. all of a sudden, you are now faced with the ordeal of waking up at a terrible time to play games as well as playing on servers where your timing with your teammates is completely off. this is basically what you guys are pushing onto us, so hopefully you understand that we're pretty miffed. from my point of view, CCN has been as unbiased and fair as possible in this matter - we can play without our team lagging, but we have to wake up at a ****ty time in order to do so. you get to play in the early evenings, but you have to deal with your team's lag unless you happen to be playing another EU team. this is the only way the bread can really break, i'm sure you wouldn't prefer playing well past midnight regardless of what your ping is.

I will. The argument that the EU players are (more) accustomed to lag is largely exaggerated. What your out-of-context numbers fail to show is that the average amount of games played by each EU members is negligible when you confront it to the time the ladder has been running. About 200 games over 10 months is far from enough to handle lag correctly. And that's just the average, someone with thousands of ladder games compensates in no way someone who has a fraction of that amount.

The only little truth your numbers hold is that Arr and Air are the most active EU clans on ladder, but you can't conclude that our activity is representative of the whole EU ball scene. As you may have noticed, this request for fairer playing conditions is cosigned by Air, FC and 8-ball. Don't make the mistake of associating a few Europeans haunting ladder to the 60 or so forming the current competitve EU clans.
When you look at the big picture, you have to consider the fact that most players from those clans are not that much present on US servers whatsoever. As good as a server Dojo is, first, I'm not sure it's that much crowded with EUs and second, public servers are not really where we should look at for lag experience.

In fact, as it is has already been mentioned, even ladder is not the place of reference on that matter, because the consequence of its format is that the lag is scattered across all teams. Which is completly different from a whole team suffering overburnt pings facing a whole team of fresh-as-a-daisy pings. The only real indicator of lag habit would be scrims; and as far as they go, every clan is reluctant to play on laggy servers, so I don't think you can say any of them has enough team experience to handle the transatlantic lag, whichever side you pick.

Not to mention that a quick look (http://www.altitudeladder.net/matchlist.php?id=d68ff962-2cd4-4c8b-b5a7-8da8aeafe6ce&mode=ball_6v6) at the matchlist is enough to see that an average 10 minutes for games length is a fairly made-up number. So whether you look at the content or the form of the argument, it's not really significant. From there, you can surely save yourself the trouble of rounding up 217.7 to 218.

i'm not arguing the fact that it's still difficult to play with lag regardless of hours spend playing with it, i'm more stating the fact that EU players in general have much more experience playing with lag than the average US player, a fact that nobody with all this posturing has been able to dispute.

the fact of the matter is, the APL servers have set admins, a set map pool, and there is uniformity within the organization of it all. repurposing servers with completely different map pools and administrators for the use of skyleague matches is completely impractical and counterproductive. if you want to provide a server located in the EU that can run the same server config that is currently on APL, then maybe it would be acceptable. instead of complaining and telling us to practice on your EU servers, why don't you grab your team and practice on the official skyleague servers instead?

in response to your last point, my "fairly made-up number" came from the main ladder page (http://www.altitudeladder.net/index.php) where it says 00:10:02 next to Avg Game Time.

Dougie
01-07-2011, 07:32 PM
Any possibility of a mixed league, with your excellent Home and Away rules?


The other idea i had for a league would be to have a split league that was based on rankings and recent performances. This would involve relegation/promotion playoffs, and allow a more competitive overall ball scene rather than these matches where the result is practically a guaranteed 6-0, 6-0. This would be a mixed league using the home/away system, but there are a lot of other things that need to be drawn out (eg.. how we would know what level each team would be? would specified schedules be necessary? Are promotion matches over two legs?)

Sunaku
01-07-2011, 07:46 PM
And sunaku, I am sorry for ruining your extremely witty and open debate. It truly was high quality stuff. You should probably read the rest of my post oh wise one. I think I gave a good and fair suggestion.
I'll bite.
Europeans can make their own leagues on their own servers if they choose to. I know there was a euro league but it didn't allow American teams to play. CCN and I think its fair that if both teams settle on an agreement, they can play in Euro servers. Consider yourself lucky.

I suggest that both teams settle on an agreement before the round starts (lets say 1 euro game, 1 american) and take a screen shot of the agreement if an admin isn't there. This will prevent what happened last week with AH and arr when AH simply decided after playing on the EU server that they wanted to go back.

Thus, APL servers will remain the primary servers. End of discussion.
I'm gonna assume this is the suggestion about settling on an agreement before the round starts. It's a step in the right direction but a very small one, as it barely differs from the statu quo. We needed the opponent's agreement to play on a EU server before, and we still will need it now. If they give it, more power to their fairplay, but a tournament's equity does not come from betting on the opponent's fairplay.
Why not simply state that games will be alternatively played on different servers when a EU team is involved? Considering this would be a change to the rules on a short notice, the series could start with the first game taking place on US servers. Still a small step but a much better and fairer one in my opinion. Note that I'm only speaking my mind on this suggestion, I don't how the others would feel about it.

mikesol
01-07-2011, 07:54 PM
Not that I really want to get involved in any way in this thread - but both sides need to take a chill pill. I don't really care who you are or what your points you think you're making - you will not change anyone's mind by insulting them, taunting them, being sarcastic to them, etc.

Both sides have a lot of valid points but people are generally ignoring half of them because of the tone of the posts. You can write a huge post with tons of great points but if you end with "**** you" people are not going to be as open. Similarly, if you're an admin and your post consists of mainly insults or taunts - it might make people question the adminship altogether and further break apart the community. =X Ever notice how lamster and karl never say like "lolol u r a r-tard" when people come in and say stuff like "ZOMG NERF BIPLANE" or something else stupid? It's because it ruins your user base. Don't do that.

Also - I'd like to remind people that simply posting +1 or I agree violates the forum rules. If you want to say you agree - perhaps highlight what it is you agree with or give some further input.

CCN
01-07-2011, 07:55 PM
I assume you mean alternate series over alternate games.

Also, keep discussion towards future leagues, 0% chance I amend this type of the thing on the fly like this.



From what i'm gathering, you want me to make the league more global by forgetting Asians and South Americans - who can't play Euro. What are people's solution to that group?

Sunaku
01-07-2011, 09:17 PM
@SSD: I'm still unsure as to why you keep bringing the timezone subject up in a thread about lag. You say the timetable relates to the servers but it does not. We think the lag sucks, you think the time slot sucks. This is not a compromise, this is two wrongs not making a right.
this is basically what you guys are pushing onto us, so hopefully you understand that we're pretty miffed.

We haven't pushed any schedule onto anyone. We took the schedules as they were. Again, I sympathize with your complaint but you really need to stop blaming us for a decision that is not ours, or at least you need to stop doing it in this thread.

i'm not arguing the fact that it's still difficult to play with lag regardless of hours spend playing with it, i'm more stating the fact that EU players in general have much more experience playing with lag than the average US player, a fact that nobody with all this posturing has been able to dispute.

This is, actually, the very point I'm debunking in my post you quoted. If any more experience there is, it's in the scope of a couple of hours concerning only a handful of players. It's negligible compared to the whole EU rosters. More to the point, there is no such thing as "lag experience" clans wide, which makes EU servers a necessity.

the fact of the matter is, the APL servers have set admins, a set map pool, and there is uniformity within the organization of it all. repurposing servers with completely different map pools and administrators for the use of skyleague matches is completely impractical and counterproductive. if you want to provide a server located in the EU that can run the same server config that is currently on APL, then maybe it would be acceptable.

I'm confident the EU servers could come up with the same map pool. Some even say it's already the case. Now, I can't speak for the server owners about administration but I don't think it would be an insuperable obstacle. When the will is present on both sides, the means follow. Achieving fairness is anything but counterproductive.
instead of complaining and telling us to practice on your EU servers, why don't you grab your team and practice on the official skyleague servers instead?

I'm pretty sure nobody told you to "practice on our EU servers". You (SkyLeague) ask us to play on US servers, so we ask you to play on EU servers as well. I believe this is called equity.

in response to your last point, my "fairly made-up number" came from the main ladder page (http://www.altitudeladder.net/index.php) where it says 00:10:02 next to Avg Game Time.
The "Avg game time" presented on ladder main page combines ball and TBD games length. An average TBD ladder game is way longer than an average ball ladder game. I'm gonna stick with my point regarding this fairly made-up number.

Sunaku
01-07-2011, 09:38 PM
Sorry for the double post, it's just much clearer.

From what i'm gathering, you want me to make the league more global by forgetting Asians and South Americans - who can't play Euro. What are people's solution to that group?
We want you to make this league more equitable for the groups who ask for it. We came up with a solution to the matter at hand, but would another group of players be severely handicapped by that solution, that it would obviously need rethinking. Until then, I don't think it's really necessary to brainstorm solutions to long-shot hypotheses.

And I meant games, as in:
US-EU-US split in bo3s and US-EU-US-EU-US in bo5s.
I think you should still consider this format for the current SL. I understand the reluctance in changing rules on the fly, but there is no harm in starting to fix an issue. After so much time ignoring that legitimate request, a show of good faith now would help a lot in making the next SL a better one.

nobodyhome
01-07-2011, 09:40 PM
@SSD: I'm still unsure on why you keep bringing the timezone subject up in a thread about lag. You say the timetable relates to the servers but it does not. We think the lag sucks, you think the time slot sucks. This is not a compromise, this is two wrongs not making a right.

We haven't pushed any schedule onto anyone. We took the schedules as they were. Again, I sympathize with your complaint but you really need to stop blaming us for a decision that is not ours, or at least you need to stop doing it in this thread.

Actually, the standard convention to have competitive altitude league matches on Sunday morning EST was demanded upon as early as the TL league in 2009, a necessity created by having to accommodate to Europeans. If it weren't for Europeans disliking to play at midnight on Sunday, I'm sure league games would have been set for Sunday night EST and would still be this way now.

If the proposal for the Europeans-not-liking-the-lag-on-US-servers issue is to have games alternately on US servers and on Euro servers, then I propose to solve the US-players-not-liking-the-timeslot issue is that we should make games alternately on Euro evening Sunday (currently the way it is now) and on US evening Sunday (which would make you Europeans have to play at midnight). I contend that it is unfair to solve the Euro's lag issue without solving the US timeslot issue. If we do both these things I'm sure you Europeans would dislike this system even more than the current one.

Currently the compromise is to have you Europeans play on our servers, and to have us US players play on your timeslot.

If you think that the timeslot issue is subservient to the lag issue, then we can also compromise to play always on Euro servers, but also always play on US timezones (thus Europeans play at midnight). This would sound reasonable to me.


This is, actually, the very point I'm debunking in my post you quoted. If any more experience there is, it's in the scope of a couple of hours concerning only a handful of players. It's negligible compared to the whole EU rosters. More to the point, there is no such thing as "lag experience" clans wide, which makes EU servers a necessity.

True, it is possible that most EU players are probably more accustomed to play on EU servers as opposed to the US servers. However, that was not SSD's point. His point was that many EU players have had some competitive experience on US servers. This point is backed up by the stats on the number of games EU players have had on ladder. He also contends that US players rarely if ever go play on EU servers. You do not object to this point. Thus, the overarching point is that EU players have had more experience (not necessarily significant, just more) playing on the US players than US players have experience playing on EU servers. This makes it an unfair proposition to require that time playing is split evenly between the two regions. Until you have data backing you up to the contrary, the point still stands.


The "Avg game time" presented on ladder main page combines ball and TBD games length. An average TBD ladder game is way longer than an average ball ladder game. I'm gonna stick with my point regarding this fairly made-up number.

It is correct that average game time is combined ball and tbd games length. However, since SSD obviously got this from a source, it is not a "made-up-number", just slightly misleading. In addition, if you click on individual profile pages (I will take yours (http://www.altitudeladder.net/profile.php?id=3495d87c-eb74-4f1d-85f3-a2d2ca09950f) because it has one of the highest number of games played) of some of the top players on ball ladder (who generally also have the most games and are thus most representative of ball games as a whole), it will show you that the average game length for ball tends to be around 9 minutes. Thus, 10 minutes is not far off of an estimate.

Wyrd
01-07-2011, 11:37 PM
Actually, the standard convention to have competitive altitude league matches on Sunday morning EST was demanded upon as early as the TL league in 2009, a necessity created by having to accommodate to Europeans. If it weren't for Europeans disliking to play at midnight on Sunday, I'm sure league games would have been set for Sunday night EST and would still be this way now. If the proposal for the Europeans-not-liking-the-lag-on-US-servers issue is to have games alternately on US servers and on Euro servers, then I propose to solve the US-players-not-liking-the-timeslot issue is that we should make games alternately on Euro evening Sunday (currently the way it is now) and on US evening Sunday (which would make you Europeans have to play at midnight). I contend that it is unfair to solve the Euro's lag issue without solving the US timeslot issue. If we do both these things I'm sure you Europeans would dislike this system even more than the current one.

Currently the compromise is to have you Europeans play on our servers, and to have us US players play on your timeslot.

If you think that the timeslot issue is subservient to the lag issue, then we can also compromise to play always on Euro servers, but also always play on US timezones (thus Europeans play at midnight). This would sound reasonable to me.


If SL wants to be a world cup and a definitive league it should try to be as fair as possible. Is it fair to ask people to play at/after midnight before a work day, no. Is it fair to ask people to play before noon on a Sunday, no. Around GMT 20:00 seems to be a fair compromise between these two.
Is it fair to have all games played so lag hinders the same people always, no.
If SL on the other hand wants to be more of a US league open to European, and from elsewhere players and willing to accommodate them by having games earlier than many US players would like, but have the compromise end there, then so be it, and thanks for enabling us to participate, but expect us to grumble about lag.

So I guess it's about whether Sky League aspiritations are that of being the Ball World Champion defining league or a Ball league.

Also, someone somewhere said something about leaving out Asians and South-Americans. I did not. I said we should use Home and Away rules, not US and EU rules. If an Asian team joins SL, they'd get to pick a server in Tokyo. Though since the majority of players hail from America and Europe, US & EU servers is what it would mostly boil down to.

Also, you people got your timeslot complaint thread in my lag complaint thread.



True, it is possible that most EU players are probably more accustomed to play on EU servers as opposed to the US servers. However, that was not SSD's point. His point was that many EU players have had some competitive experience on US servers. This point is backed up by the stats on the number of games EU players have had on ladder. He also contends that US players rarely if ever go play on EU servers. You do not object to this point. Thus, the overarching point is that EU players have had more experience (not necessarily significant, just more) playing on the US players than US players have experience playing on EU servers. This makes it an unfair proposition to require that time playing is split evenly between the two regions. Until you have data backing you up to the contrary, the point still stands.

I objected to the point that US players rarely if ever go play on EU servers. I see at least a few daily. Regardless of that, these ladder statistics, that are iffy in a way a lot of statistics are, are irrelevant because, as said already, on ladder the teams usually both consist of a mix of pings (when Europeans are playing). Not one red-orange ping team, versus one lag free team. When an entire team lags the experience is very different, in a bad way.

mikesol
01-08-2011, 12:11 AM
I objected to the point that US players rarely if ever go play on EU servers. I see at least a few daily. Regardless of that, these ladder statistics, that are iffy in a way a lot of statistics are, are irrelevant because, as said already, on ladder the teams usually both consist of a mix of pings (when Europeans are playing). Not one red-orange ping team, versus one lag free team. When an entire team lags the experience is very different, in a bad way.

I feel like you and nobo are missing each other's points.

Nobo is saying this: EU players have had more experience playing competitively on US servers than vice versa. He's saying simply go to the ladder page and look at the sheer number of games and game time people have played there. Now ask many of the top US players and see if they've played similar numbers of games on EU servers. I'm 99% confident they haven't. Basically - the EU players are more accustomed to playing with the lag than the US players.

What you're saying (I think) is that this is irrelevant because it's only looking at the individual player. This is a good point - you have not practiced competitively as a team as much on the US servers. I'd contend, however, that EU players, as a whole, have more experience playing in US servers than vice versa - which gives EU players an advantage if they were allowed to play home games (so perhaps a 2 US 1 EU or 3 US 2 EU would be the best option as it gives the US players a slight advantage in terms of number of home games but you guys the advantage of being able to play on your own turf).

Further clarification: I'm saying this in the sense that if you throw a US team on an EU server - the players don't know how to work with lag AND don't know how to work as a team while lagging. EU players know how to work with lag but don't know how to work as a team while lagging.

Am I making sense or did I misinterpret you?


Edit: Also I feel like you're getting upset at the time slot complaint without looking at the bigger picture. The US players are contending that they are already giving up something to be able to play with you guys (i.e. poor time-slots). They contend that they should be able to have the home field advantage in return. Whether or not this is reasonable is debatable - but don't simply throw out the time slot complaint as invading your thread. :)

Further edit:


Since the source SSD decided to point me to doesn't state "Avg ball game time", which could have explained his 10 minutes reasoning, and since he didn't come with 9 minutes either, I'll again stick to my original definition of this number.
If one is willing to demonstrate something through number crunching, the least courtesy is to be accurate or the whole demonstration falls flat.
Not that it really matters, it's just a way of dispelling the numbers angle that lets you interpret them any way you see fit. As you can see from my post, I spent only two lines discussing the veracity of this number, and 3 paragraphs before that discussing the conclusions taken from those numbers.

It seems to me like you're harping on him for rounding up. Each player's average game time is quite different. Your's is 9:17 but mine is over 10. =X

Sunaku
01-08-2011, 12:12 AM
As Wyrd decided to make all the same points just before me (you can thank him for saving you from another monster post), I'll just answer to the nitpicking part of the discussion that no one cares about anymore:

It is correct that average game time is combined ball and tbd games length. However, since SSD obviously got this from a source, it is not a "made-up-number", just slightly misleading. In addition, if you click on individual profile pages (I will take yours (http://www.altitudeladder.net/profile.php?id=3495d87c-eb74-4f1d-85f3-a2d2ca09950f) because it has one of the highest number of games played) of some of the top players on ball ladder (who generally also have the most games and are thus most representative of ball games as a whole), it will show you that the average game length for ball tends to be around 9 minutes. Thus, 10 minutes is not far off of an estimate.
Since the source SSD decided to point me to doesn't state "Avg ball game time", which could have explained his 10 minutes reasoning, and since he didn't come with 9 minutes either, I'll again stick to my original definition of this number.
If one is willing to demonstrate something through number crunching, the least courtesy is to be accurate or the whole demonstration falls flat.
Not that it really matters, it's just a way of dispelling the numbers angle that lets you interpret them any way you see fit. As you can see from my post, I spent only two lines discussing the veracity of this number, and 3 paragraphs before that discussing the conclusions taken from those numbers.

Clapon
01-08-2011, 01:03 AM
If you think that the timeslot issue is subservient to the lag issue, then we can also compromise to play always on Euro servers, but also always play on US timezones (thus Europeans play at midnight). This would sound reasonable to me.


Do this ill be more then happy to play with 190ping on euro, that is if you all really dont think this is that big of an issue? which none of you seem to.


Another thing id like to say is that on euro servers west coast has about 200 ping and the Asian players are totally out with 300+ ping but when we play on east coast server euro players play at 120-160ish which is MUCH more playable then 200 ping. And i myself have almost 100 on US east coast servers so us west coast players arnt even that far off.

and like SSD this whole name being world cup is just really lol i hope you understand who dumb you look when you keep complaining about this.

Either way this is just another whining thread, we have had them before and there will be more to come, the league is already quite accommodating as it is and most likely as it ever will be.

Wok3N^
01-08-2011, 01:09 AM
I feel that before next skyleague, we can talk to euro server moderators about using their servers. It is a bit too late to do such now.

Sunaku
01-08-2011, 01:27 AM
Thus, the overarching point is that EU players have had more experience (not necessarily significant, just more) playing on the US players than US players have experience playing on EU servers. This makes it an unfair proposition to require that time playing is split evenly between the two regions.

Those two points appear distant enough to not be directly related. The whole argument of my previous posts was not to deny the factual timed experience of EU players on US servers; it was to stronly question the significance of said experience, because this significance is the only factor that matters.
It sounds to me that EUs should play forever on APL servers because they have played once on ladder, which seems even more unfair than asking the US players to share the lagpie.

EU players know how to work with lag but don't know how to work as a team while lagging.
The assumption that all EU players know how to work with lag, even individually, is in my opinion wrong for two reasons. First, I'll restate that a few very active EU players on ladder are a smoke screen behind which you'll find the majority of the EU competitive scene who doesn't like ladder, for whatever reasons, lag or else. Assimilating a few people with hundreds of games in ladder as the whole EU scene is extremely sketchy, and this argument is dismissing a huge part of our clans.
Second, there is the notion of knowing-how which demands a substantial number of hours on US servers to acquire. Since nearly the unanimity of EU players are more active on EU servers, playing a few hours in ladder now and then is not an experience persistent enough to be significant.

At best, EU players are constantly switching servers which doesn't allow them to get accustomed to lag; at worst, they avoid lag like plague (no pun intended) and stay away from ladder or any US server as much as they can. In that regard, I don't see how EU players differ from US players and how they would be somehow concretely advantaged in their disadvantage.


It seems to me like you're harping on him for rounding up. Each player's average game time is quite different. Your's is 9:17 but mine is over 10.
I think you're mixing up Nobo's source and SSD's source, which are quite different. Again, the source SSD pointed me to to back up his 10 minutes is not a single player's page. Hoping this will be enough to bury this overdiscussed detail, please refer to this quote:
in response to your last point, my "fairly made-up number" came from the main ladder page (http://www.altitudeladder.net/index.php) where it says 00:10:02 next to Avg Game Time.
Come on now, I wouldn't blame someone for rounding up 2 seconds, I'm not a monster. It seems to me like you're trying to defend a fallacy.

mikesol
01-08-2011, 01:40 AM
The assumption that all EU players know how to work with lag, even individually, is in my opinion wrong for two reasons. First, I'll restate that a few very active EU players on ladder are a smoke screen behind which you'll find the majority of the EU competitive scene who doesn't like ladder, for whatever reasons, lag or else. Assimilating a few people with hundreds of games in ladder as the whole EU scene is extremely sketchy, and this argument is dismissing a huge part of our clans.
Second, there is the notion of knowing-how which demands a substantial number of hours on US servers to acquire. Since nearly the unanimity of EU players are more active on EU servers, playing a few hours in ladder now and then is not an experience persistent enough to be significant.

Would you contend that more US players are accustomed to lag than EU players are? I'm not sure how you could make that claim. Please note I'm not saying EU players can all handle it - just that they are more USED to it. It's not as if magically you become this super being who can excel in lag - but any experience with lag gives you some advantage. I'm not simply grouping all players together - I'm saying as a whole EU players are more accustomed than US players. So far I haven't seen you give anything to prove otherwise.

Our difference seems to stem from the fact that you are claiming a few hours in ladder is not enough to be significant - whereas I am claiming it is. Unfortunately this is just a manner of opinion.

At best, EU players are constantly switching servers which doesn't allow them to get accustomed to lag; at worst, they avoid lag like plague (no pun intended) and stay away from ladder or any US server as much as they can. In that regard, I don't see how EU players differ from US players and how they would be somehow concretely advantaged in their disadvantage.

I believe you're missing something here. In my eyes, at best, EU players have experience with lag enough to combat it and, at worst, EU players have experience with lag but not enough to combat it. Once again this get's back to the difference of opinion. Do you see where I'm coming from?


I think you're mixing up Nobo's source and SSD's source, which are quite different. Again, the source SSD pointed me to to back up his 10 minutes is not a single player's page. Hoping this will be enough to bury this overdiscussed detail, please refer to this quote:

Come on now, I wouldn't blame someone for rounding up 2 seconds, I'm not a monster. It seems to me like you're trying to defend a fallacy.

I see where the problem lies. You are indeed correct I'm mixing up Nobo's source and SSD's source. SSD was using the overall avg game time whereas Nobo was using the ball avg game time. To be fair, though, 10 minutes is not all that much different from 9 minutes 17 seconds - which was my point. I'm not saying that SSD did not make a mistake - just that I feel you are over-reacting to a simple mistake :)


Responses bolded

Incidentally - is the crux of all of these arguments basically that you feel EU players don't have any advantage when it comes to lag experience? Cause if so I'm not sure what else needs to be said lol

CCN
01-08-2011, 04:19 AM
I've had Asians complain about having to play on Euro servers, this is not a hypothetical situation.
There are also South Americans around, too.


"We want you to make this league more equitable for the groups who ask for it." - I want to make this league equitable to all the groups that play, not just the most vocal of groups.


So lets brain storm for this current and very real situation.

Every time this has come up i've brought up the what about Asians and South Americans, and every time there has been no solution or compromise for them and that was what has stayed my hand. And this is what stays my hand on changing anything again.

If Skyleague wants to be a global league, it doesn't forget Europe and America is not the entire world.

beefheart
01-08-2011, 09:15 AM
Wtf silenced by the ministry of truth.

Tekn0
01-08-2011, 09:46 AM
Every time this has come up i've brought up the what about Asians and South Americans, and every time there has been no solution or compromise for them and that was what has stayed my hand. And this is what stays my hand on changing anything again.

I can see tempers are high so I'll try to sneak in my observation/input regarding Asia and ping from my own experience.

I've been connecting from Asia for the last 2 months and ALWAYS AIR EU (190) server has lesser ping than Ball Dojo (280) in terms of ping. The ping varies vastly with the time of day but in general EU servers here have definitely better pings than US when I connect from here. And these ping figures are when AIR server is full (mid-day CET) and Ball Dojo has 0 players.

So I don't think it's fully accurate to blanket whole of "Asia" that US servers have better ping than EU servers.

Maybe all people who connect from non-US and non-EU countries can give their own ping experiences??

Just a minor suggestion, I can imagine how difficult it must be already for you to organize all this, so kudos for that.

beefheart
01-08-2011, 10:28 AM
@CCN

I have the solution: Home and away rules unless both teams agree to play on another server.

1. Home and away rules are always 100% equitable.

example: EU vs US. 2 matches.

1st on US EST server: I have 160 ping York has 20
2nd on Air EU server: I have 20 ping york has 160

2. However, it might be better for teams, originating from the other side of the world to play in a server in the middle.

example: EU vs Australia

Decide to play on US grounds, they settle to play each other with approximately 140 vs 160 ping (or something like that) instead of 280 vs 20 ping per match.

Wyrd
01-08-2011, 10:29 AM
Regarding the EU players are more experienced with lag, and, thus they can handle it better and should play with it more than US players a fellow Sky Pirate remarked that,


1) EU teams' experience with lag being a big advantage is still mostly conjecture and the only way to find out if there's some truth to it is to play on both US and EU servers.

and

2) the assumption in itself that a team's experience with lag means that it's fair to give them a disadvantage is a bit odd. Taking that a bit further, should older ball clans give the newer clans a few free goals at the start of each match? Seeing as the "veterans" have had more experience playing as a team? It's not a very solid argument that teams should be penalized because some (few) players have actually tried to practice handling lag in order to become better overall players.

While it's arguably true that the incentive to do "lag training" has been better for EU players (seeing as all leagues used to be US-based, and that the ladder is an attraction to some), that is really more of an argument in favour of more non-US based matches, not one against 'em. More incentive for people not used to lag to practice in order to increase the quality of future matches.

That said, at this point it's fair to concede that it is a bit late to turn this SL into a home/away affair. The suggestion made earlier to reduce the strain on Americans by moving starting times a bit later (without forcing people to call in sick at work the morning after just to finish the finals) while reducing the lag penalty given to EU players by alternating US-EU-US etc seems like the best compromise we could find.



I've had Asians complain about having to play on Euro servers, this is not a hypothetical situation.
There are also South Americans around, too.

"We want you to make this league more equitable for the groups who ask for it." - I want to make this league equitable to all the groups that play, not just the most vocal of groups.

So lets brain storm for this current and very real situation.

Every time this has come up i've brought up the what about Asians and South Americans, and every time there has been no solution or compromise for them and that was what has stayed my hand. And this is what stays my hand on changing anything again.

If Skyleague wants to be a global league, it doesn't forget Europe and America is not the entire world.

Thank you for expressing your intentions and being open to brainstorming solutions. :)

There are several (3-4, so that's about a fourth of the entire roster) players in {Arr} that have ping in the reds, 200+ on US servers. About the same as the Asia based players get on EU servers, I think. I only know =Special='s case. Is this about the same ping as South-Americans get on EU servers? More input like tekn0's would be great. :")

This is partially why I still feel some variant of Dougie's home & away system would work.

Each team would ideally get the same amount of Home & Away matches. Even more ideally, but maybe impractically, one home and one away match per opponent to really know who's the better of the two. The Home team gets to choose the server. Within reason, because we do not want people picking a Polish server for the game, while they are located in West-Europe, to give their US opponents more lag. Though I don't think that would happen, it's better to prevent that from happening. Even when most of the team is from Eastern Europe, it would be fairer and better I think to still have a West European server for their Home games. A little-lag team vs a much-lag team game is way more fun and fair than a no-lag vs a crippling-lag team game.

So Home for EU games would preferably be an EU server that has as little lag as possible for US/Asian/South-American players, and vice versa. And if there's a team out there with mostly Asian players, they get to pick a server for their Home games in Asia, one that is as least bad for EU/US players as possible.

With the Home and Away system it is clear when you have a disadvantage for a match. When you're playing Away you may have to make some adjustments. {Arr} for instance would probably have to drop our red pingers and fly with a less than optimal plane setup. Coming out on top during an Away game shows your team can really kick ass hard.
During Home games you get the satisfaction of playing as optimally as you can, and you can let those with otherwise red ping compete in the league too. Sure, the opponent has a handicap against you, but there's still degrees of victory; you can punch the cripple a bit till he's down, or you can take his crutch and repeatedly bugger him with it.

This system might give the most advantage to the more mixed clans; tvo and ball? Because they can more easily adjust their setup in away matches by flying with more players from the same place as the Home team. I guess that's their bonus for being more international. This is actually where some form of roster cap (please no thread jack people) would be useful to mitigate that advantage if it becomes too big due to obese international clans. ;)


If it turns out it is really unfeasible to come up with a workable and fair for all Home & Away system (for SL4) then I'll just have to accept that, and help with the realisation of the EUABL & AABL leagues with home and away finals, as a league alongside SL, but not before we try.

EDIT:
2. However, it might be better for teams, originating from the other side of the world to play in a server in the middle.

example: EU vs Australia

Decide to play on US grounds instead of having to play on set of matches with 300 ping. they settle to play each other with approximately 140 vs 160 ping (or something like that) instead of 280 vs 20 ping per match.

Yeah, good point.

CCN
01-08-2011, 11:23 AM
tekno where are you from?

Goose
01-08-2011, 11:27 AM
Out of good faith to our friends and allies in the North, &Twisted& will be willing to agree to play matches on the {arr} server if we happen to be matched up against a EU team, for the B01 match.

Tekn0
01-08-2011, 12:35 PM
tekno where are you from?

I live in Germany but right now I'm on vacation in India. I think you might also want to ask, if you have not already, =SPecial= (=Sp!aSH= is his new nick I think) who connects to AIR EU servers regularly as well about his ping experience from Taiwan versus Ball Dojo.

My point was if almost all Asian players have better pings to the US that's fine but we might want to ask them because my personal experience from Asia is different. I don't mind if India is an exception to the rule (I won't be here for long anyway).

Cheers.

Edit: Attached a ping screenshot. http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/4821898/640/4821898.png

drunkguava
01-08-2011, 09:05 PM
I'm going to check with our captains, but I think {ball} might actually play bo3's US-EU-US, and bo5's US-EU-US-EU-US for SL3. idk about bo1s though...

-also imo it's much more reasonable to expect a team to swing one away game their way than an entire series. home court becomes less of an advantage this way.

blln4lyf
01-08-2011, 10:08 PM
I'm going to check with our captains, but I think {ball} might actually play bo3's US-EU-US, and bo5's US-EU-US-EU-US for SL3. idk about bo1s though...

-also imo it's much more reasonable to expect a team to swing one away game their way than an entire series. home court becomes less of an advantage this way.

Against this, primarily because I am not willing to prolong the wait to play anymore than it already is because of server shuffling. There is already too much downtime, like people having to be kicked to make room for players. I'd rather just go play some ladder or dojo random games than wait around while all the issues are multiplied by all of the server switches, in addition to the extra time needed just for the switches.

I'm not against some sort of change, but I am strongly against playing in different servers game after game like this.

Evan20000
01-09-2011, 02:21 AM
Is 140 ping (against 70-90 opponents) really that gamebreaking for you?

CCN
01-09-2011, 03:11 AM
Server shuffling like this I will not allow. It slows down stuff way too much.

gemigemi
01-09-2011, 01:11 PM
Like many US players here have said "shut up and deal with it or gtfo" is a real solution to the current situation with a "world cup" that is actually a US cup with the possibility for non-US players to play. I actually recommended arr to stay out this time because it is indeed a US cup, not one that is targeted towards equal playing conditions for everyone.

Anyway, if the league holder is actually interested in making a solution that is fair for everyone, then allow each team to select a server where they want to play and then have "home" and "away" games for each team, OR split games between those servers in any other way. If two US teams or two EU teams play, then neither will have lag. If a US and a EU team play, then both will get the no-lag advantage in half of the games. If a team has players from outside of these two areas (asia, south america) or is a mixed team, then they can select a server that they find overall the best for their members.

I'm not saying this is the only solution to the problem, but so far it is the only one I have seen that actually takes all teams into consideration. Anything else that does so is also ok to me. I'm also fine to splitting tournaments to EU and US ones where there are only local teams present, but the bad side in this is that some teams never get to actually play each other which is a shame.

CCN
01-09-2011, 01:38 PM
This league strives to allow players from all over the world to play. Not just Euros or Americans. No solution will be implemented that excludes Asians and South Americans. Brainstorming has been offered, so go help figure out a solution.


/end.

I think this is the 3rd time i've said that so I'll try to stop repeating it and wait for the brainstorming to role in.

CCN
01-09-2011, 02:14 PM
Also, to include EU servers, I would need the ability to put configs on them, with my only the skyleague set of admins.

If we have that we can move on from the first roadblock of having usable EU servers.

Sunaku
01-09-2011, 02:43 PM
Edit : It's a response to your post before its edition.
This league strives to allow players from all over the world to play. Not just Euros or Americans. No solution will be implemented that excludes Asians and South Americans.
[...]
Just remember, as you seemed to have forgotten, the world isn't just US/EU.
Let's not kid ourselves, how many Asian and South American ball clans are out there? Now how many European clans? Brainstorming a hypothetical future is commendable, but it shouldn't blind you from the present reality that the current ball scene is mostly, if not entirely, composed of US and EU clans.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see competitive clans from those parts of the world, as much as I like witnessing any clan grow competitive. But hiding the absence of improvement towards the current population of SkyLeague behind the speculation that foreign clans might partake is wrong.

Accusing us of being EU-centered is particularly puzzling when Home and Away rules accomodating everyone were proposed in this very thread. Both short and long-term solutions are within reach, their implementation is now your call.
So, before finding the perfect solution to end all problems for every nation, why don't you take concrete steps to make SL just a bit less US-centered first?

CCN
01-09-2011, 02:53 PM
We have asian and SA players. Most of them (apparently Tekno is an exception) can not play euro servers, which doesn't discount use of euro servers, as some compromise can be made to get euros playing on their servers a portion of the time.

So for you Sunaku
" This league strives to allow players from all over the world to play. Not just Euros or Americans. No solution will be implemented that excludes Asians and South Americans. Brainstorming has been offered, so go help figure out a solution."
This isn't changing. Maybe this leaves the door open for a EU/US centric league, and if so more power to it. I'll be happy with whatever happens to skyleague as long as I stick by the principal of letting everyone have the ability to play.

So get brainstorming. Maybe we can get better ideas/improvements on the current ones.

Wyrd
01-09-2011, 03:10 PM
Brainstorming, taking into account Asians and SAs, right tharrr --->
http://altitudegame.com/forums/showpost.php?p=100463&postcount=80

How high are these unplayable South American and Asian pings on EU servers like Arr & Air's?

I would need the ability to put configs on them, with my only the skyleague set of admins

What do you mean with last bit, and what kind of configs? Game tracking?

CCN
01-09-2011, 03:24 PM
Sevrer configs for maps/settings/admins

I'll read yours more closely Wyrd soon, but since I will be implementing in SL4 there is still time.

Asian pings are 300+, South Americans I wil find out.

beefheart
01-09-2011, 04:49 PM
We have asian and SA players. Most of them (apparently Tekno is an exception) can not play euro servers.

That also means that euro's cannot play on asian or SA servers. So it is in the interest for both teams to play their games on a server somewhere in the middle (like US for example). So allow them to play on another server if both teams agree.

I cannot see why this cannot be a good solution, if their can be found a solution how to regulate these servers.

CCN
01-09-2011, 06:27 PM
That also means that euro's cannot play on asian or SA servers. So it is in the interest for both teams to play their games on a server somewhere in the middle (like US for example). So allow them to play on another server if both teams agree.

I cannot see why this cannot be a good solution, if their can be found a solution how to regulate these servers.

so USA teams with Asian players get to play on USA servers or must drop said players?

Evan20000
01-09-2011, 07:26 PM
Additionally, we don't have Asian/Aussie servers. If you would like to pay for them, be our guest.

beefheart
01-09-2011, 08:11 PM
so USA teams with Asian players get to play on USA servers or must drop said players?

I can see the difficulty there. Ofcourse some teams are mixed. A similar situation is when you have EU players on an US team, playing an away match vs an Asian team. So in a home - away system, mixed teams form the greatest barrier atm. Maybe someone has some idea how to overcome this?

A radical solution could be that US teams will only have US members, EU teams will have EU members etc, but ofcourse this asks for a big reorganisation in a lot of clans and i can see why some clans might be reluctant to do that.

Additionally, we don't have Asian/Aussie servers. If you would like to pay for them, be our guest.

That's because there is only a relatively small playerbase in that part of the world. If there are no appropriate Asian/ australian servers, teams based there can take the closest appropriate server as home server, for example a US server. (Although then the ping distribution in the home and away matches are not equal when playing vs a US team (this is something which cannot be done anything about until they have there own servers) and ausies will have to play in the away match vs Eu with pings of 300 (this could be solved however by installing a rule that EU vs Asia/pacific always (home and away) has to be played on US ground).

In short, the precise framework has to be worked out yet. But i think these issues can be overcome when the will is there.

Comment removed by moderator

Clapon
01-09-2011, 09:22 PM
like i said idc if we do any of these server things if we change the times. other wise the servers stay the same.

Wyrd
01-10-2011, 12:47 PM
so USA teams with Asian players get to play on USA servers or must drop said players?

Paraphrase from my brainstorm. When you're playing Away you may have to make some adjustments. {Arr} for instance would probably have to drop its red pingers, likewise for teams with Asian/SA players playing away in the EU, and fly with a less than optimal plane setup. Coming out on top during an Away game shows your team can really kick ass hard. Thanks for proving that point Twisted... yeah... thanks a lot :'(
However during Home games you get the satisfaction of playing as optimally as you can, and you can let those, EU, Asian or South American players with otherwise red ping during Away games compete in the league too.


The US servers currently actually exclude some EU players from playing during away matches for EU due to their blood red ping, just like EU servers would exclude some Asian/SA players in Away matches for them. But only in Away matches.

CCN
01-10-2011, 04:02 PM
Anyway you cut it the decision prioritizes Euros over Asians. Arguments do exist for this, it is whether I want to accept them as the important ones. Could you provide me some examples of Euros who can not play on APL servers on a regular basis, the more the better. If it is a fair few then there becomes more merit to a home/away system due to including as many people as possible (who are currently excluded).


Are there 4 Euro servers that are ready to host skyleague? Yesterday we saw how many people actually came to play, filled 40 man servers while other games were going on (or concurrent games in 4 servers with spectators). Can the current availability of Euro servers cope? Will the runners of these servers allow us to load up server configs for the sunday games?

Euro servers have been offered, and a smaller Euro league has been run before. What are the server owners willing to offer, and how strong is their machinery?

gemigemi
01-16-2011, 04:25 AM
This league strives to allow players from all over the world to play. Not just Euros or Americans. No solution will be implemented that excludes Asians and South Americans. Brainstorming has been offered, so go help figure out a solution.


/end.

I think this is the 3rd time i've said that so I'll try to stop repeating it and wait for the brainstorming to role in.
So you are straight out ignoring what I and a few others have suggested? All clans can select which ever server they want to use as their home server. This means that where ever the players in the team play from - US, EU, Asia, Antarctica, Moon, Mars, ... - the team can always select the option that they think is the best one for their use. This makes it possible for the team to let anyone player in their team play with the optimal ping that they can find among servers.

Also your stance of rather preferring to help Asians and South Americans over Europeans is pretty weird considering there are dozens of players from EU and only a couple from other countries. Is it a good idea to hinder a major part of the player base in favor of a couple individuals? Tbh this seems only like poorly excused favoritism to your own area and not something a "neutral world cup organizer" would do in any case.

CCN
01-16-2011, 04:35 AM
It's my stance.

What is the Euro Server status? Limitations and such, as it is? Simultaneous capacity etc.

gemigemi
01-16-2011, 03:51 PM
Ok, thanks for confirming that you openly favor US. Very few people I know would be so honest about it, so I really respect you for not trying to make up excuses. :)

The arr servers can handle as much stuff as you need for any reasonable cup. Currently running 4 servers in there and they can easily handle a looot of players resource wise. I'm also able to give access to other people to configure the servers if required. Does it matter though if you just want to hold a US based "world cup"?

Wok3N^
01-16-2011, 04:05 PM
Ok, thanks for confirming that you openly favor US. Very few people I know would be so honest about it, so I really respect you for not trying to make up excuses. :)

The arr servers can handle as much stuff as you need for any reasonable cup. Currently running 4 servers in there and they can easily handle a looot of players resource wise. I'm also able to give access to other people to configure the servers if required. Does it matter though if you just want to hold a US based "world cup"?

Gemi, I have said that during the next SL, we will talk to European server moderators and see what we can do with using servers from both sides of the globe. I understand that you have capable servers. Thank you for offering them. However, I have also stated here that it is too late to make these switches now midseason. CCN is not trying to hold a US based world cup, he simply used the servers he had access too, similarly to the Altitude Proleague admins using American based servers.

gemigemi
01-17-2011, 07:19 AM
Gemi, I have said that during the next SL, we will talk to European server moderators and see what we can do with using servers from both sides of the globe. I understand that you have capable servers. Thank you for offering them. However, I have also stated here that it is too late to make these switches now midseason. CCN is not trying to hold a US based world cup, he simply used the servers he had access too, similarly to the Altitude Proleague admins using American based servers.
I have offered my servers frequently after every season. No attempt has been made from league organizers to take up on these offers. Also, up there CCN very clearly told me that yes, my view on his ideals is correct:

It's my stance.
It doesn't come any clearer than that.

SPeciaL
01-17-2011, 09:10 AM
actually i would like an european server for Sky league. I'm Asian but I don't mind playing on European Servers. So c'mon CCN, use arr servers (or any EU Server you've found) :)

sunshineduck
01-17-2011, 12:57 PM
I have offered my servers frequently after every season. No attempt has been made from league organizers to take up on these offers.

Could you please link us to instances in which you said, "If the Skyleague admins wish to use EU-based servers in the next Skyleague, feel free to talk to me and we can work something out" or anything of the like?

It doesn't come any clearer than that.

wat

I don't see where he says "I favor the US when making SL decisions" anywhere, either directly or implied. Unless you are referring to where you said

Tbh this seems only like poorly excused favoritism to your own area and not something a "neutral world cup organizer" would do in any case.

and took his response to mean that he agreed to what you were saying there, in which case that is rather laughable considering CCN lives in China.

I still find it rather amusing that after four APL's not one EU-based team has thought to bitch and moan incessantly about the servers they have to play on despite lag impacting TBD far more than it does ball, while every EU-based ball team suddenly has major issues with "favoritism to the US". It's rather telling, actually.

It's probably some variation of the spoiled child effect - SL modeled itself after APL, making the same compromises between US and EU teams that APL did, but had all of this from the very beginning, and now the EU ball teams feel entitled to them *inhale*. Brats. :D

banana
01-17-2011, 03:34 PM
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTZPOLAdzuMEhslwNYulKo5_b40G8dXx G0yuhuuSYXdJMTOKOfpPNRwJx26

Wyrd
01-17-2011, 06:49 PM
Could you please link us to instances in which you said, "If the Skyleague admins wish to use EU-based servers in the next Skyleague, feel free to talk to me and we can work something out" or anything of the like?

What if he said it in chat? Can this statement then not be entered into the record as evidence?


wat

I don't see where he says "I favor the US when making SL decisions" anywhere, either directly or implied. Unless you are referring to where you said
[????]
and took his response to mean that he agreed to what you were saying there, in which case that is rather laughable considering CCN lives in China.

Gemi asked CCN if his stance was:
your stance of rather preferring to help Asians and South Americans over Europeans is pretty weird considering there are dozens of players from EU and only a couple from other countries. Is it a good idea to hinder a major part of the player base in favor of a couple individuals? Tbh this seems only like poorly excused favoritism to your own area and not something a "neutral world cup organizer" would do in any case.
And CCN confirmed this.

How is this laughable? Gemi's saying CCN is preferring to help Asians, fyi this includes those in China, who mostly/some have better ping on US servers, over Europeans, among other things. He did not say the US was favoured only.


I still find it rather amusing that after four APL's not one EU-based team has thought to bitch and moan incessantly about the servers they have to play on despite lag impacting TBD far more than it does ball, while every EU-based ball team suddenly has major issues with "favoritism to the US". It's rather telling, actually.

It's probably some variation of the spoiled child effect - SL modeled itself after APL, making the same compromises between US and EU teams that APL did, but had all of this from the very beginning, and now the EU ball teams feel entitled to them *inhale*. Brats. :D

Emphasis mine. Does it? I don't know enough about TBD to accurately judge it, but I doubt the veracity of that statement. How many bombs do you pass among your teammates, which subsequently fail to connect with their planes due to high ping? Do the bombs bounce back up from the base and not count? I'll pretend it your answer will be a detailed analysis of why TBD suffers more from lag than ball. It doesn't matter, because jesus h. christ I thought the whining about the "whining" and the USA vs EU bit was finally over with and we were being somewhat constructive, and then you had to start again. Though I'll admit that gemi's tone was a bit too hostile. Though I understand that he's a bit miffy because Gemi has "offered my servers frequently after every season. No attempt has been made from league organizers to take up on these offers."

And you're damn right we feel entitled. Last round nearly half the teams were EU clans, why shouldn't we ask for fairer lag distribution. Sorry, it's always been this way, you don't get to complain or ask for changes. Other people didn't. For the rest of this discussion go reread the thread. Thanks for constructively participating to the brainstorm, oh wait no, thanks for being insulting.


CCN, Wok3n, like I said, I'm glad you're willing to consider changes, and that we're now mostly trying to see what can be done. I do feel I have to reiterate that a home & away system would more or less equally exclude/hinder those EU/Asian/South-American players that have (too) high ping on EU/US servers respectively.
Rules for having middleground games instead of home/away could be incorporated in those cases where clans would have about the same amount of distributed/individuals with high ping if a game were played on a US server. For example, a team with some SAs or Asians and lots of West US coasters vs an EU team. Otherwise some people get benched/lagging like hell during an away game, but that should only be half the time at most for both sides of the Atlantic Ping Pond.

gemigemi
01-17-2011, 07:11 PM
Could you please link us to instances in which you said, "If the Skyleague admins wish to use EU-based servers in the next Skyleague, feel free to talk to me and we can work something out" or anything of the like?
I wont bother to search dozens of pages for your amusement. You'll either have to take my word for it or go through the archives yourself. Doesn't matter to me. I've offered my servers for use in any leagues or tournaments multiple times in different places on these forums, on irc and in the game.

I still find it rather amusing that after four APL's not one EU-based team has thought to bitch and moan incessantly about the servers they have to play on despite lag impacting TBD far more than it does ball, while every EU-based ball team suddenly has major issues with "favoritism to the US". It's rather telling, actually.
Telling of what? Possibly that lag actually affects TBD less, or the teams just don't care that much. I don't know since I don't play TBD nor do I know the TBD scene at all. What I know is that lag plays a huge part in ball (if you say otherwise then your team most likely does not pass the ball much), and since there are many European ball clans that are really serious about playing the game it's just natural that we want to do something about it.

Also calling this "sudden" only means that you have not followed the situation much at all. Lag has been discussed before, during and after each ball tournament and league. When some games in a former league were played in the EU (iirc on the old arr servers) {ball} whined enough about their loss that further games were not played on EU servers. It hasn't been just the EU whining about lag, the US players do the same. It's just that currently US players don't have a reason to whine as they are the ones favored. :)

It's probably some variation of the spoiled child effect - SL modeled itself after APL, making the same compromises between US and EU teams that APL did, but had all of this from the very beginning, and now the EU ball teams feel entitled to them *inhale*. Brats. :D
If some other league in some other game format does things in a bad way it doesn't mean that having a less bad way is suddenly the optimal or the right way to do things. That's a funny thing to even try to use as an argument. :D

sunshineduck
01-17-2011, 07:22 PM
What if he said it in chat? Can this statement then not be entered into the record as evidence?

He could post a chat log, obviously.


How is this laughable? Gemi's saying CCN is preferring to help Asians, fyi this includes those in China, who mostly/some have better ping on US servers, over Europeans, among other things. He did not say the US was favoured only.

Ok, thanks for confirming that you openly favor US. Very few people I know would be so honest about it, so I really respect you for not trying to make up excuses. :)

The arr servers can handle as much stuff as you need for any reasonable cup. Currently running 4 servers in there and they can easily handle a looot of players resource wise. I'm also able to give access to other people to configure the servers if required. Does it matter though if you just want to hold a US based "world cup"?

I mean, really? Seriously?

Emphasis mine. Does it? I don't know enough about TBD to accurately judge it, but I doubt the veracity of that statement. How many bombs do you pass among your teammates, which subsequently fail to connect with their planes due to high ping? Do the bombs bounce back up from the base and not count? I'll pretend it your answer will be a detailed analysis of why TBD suffers more from lag than ball.

I'm enjoying the fact that you admit to not knowing anything about TBD and still are attempting to argue the fact that lag impacts TBD far more than it impacts ball with someone who has played 2059 games in ball ladder and 1830 games in TBD ladder. imo, it's not an arguable point. There's nothing in ball that is even close to equaling a lag lob from the top of the map that goes through 80% of the team and takes out 1/3 of the base's health. Not even close.

It doesn't matter, because jesus h. christ I thought the whining about the "whining" and the USA vs EU bit was finally over with and we were being somewhat constructive, and then you had to start again. Though I'll admit that gemi's tone was a bit too hostile. Though I understand that he's a bit miffy because Gemi has "offered my servers frequently after every season. No attempt has been made from league organizers to take up on these offers."

It's rather irritating how condescending you choose to act. As far as I can tell, there has been absolutely 0 evidence that gemi has offered his servers up "frequently after every season", and while I do not doubt the fact that he has, in fact, offered the use of his servers during Skyleague, I doubt that he has done so in a way that would make it a no-brainer to include the servers for official use. While this may be very ignorant of me to assume, I personally find it very hard to believe that gemi told CCN or some other equitable admin directly that he was 100% willing to allow said admin full control of the server configs and that specific admin just so happened to completely purge that offer from his mind. If you can provide evidence to the contrary, I'm all ears.

And you're damn right we feel entitled. Last round nearly half the teams were EU clans, why shouldn't we ask for fairer lag distribution. Sorry, it's always been this way, you don't get to complain or ask for changes. Other people didn't. For the rest of this discussion go reread the thread. Thanks for constructively participating to the brainstorm, oh wait no, thanks for being insulting.

I've read the full thread prior to every post I've made, and the "brainstorm" you are speaking of has produced 0 results. You keep pushing the same ideas (home and away rules, server shuffling) over and over, and CCN has to continuously deal with a string of textual abuse each time he refuses to change his rules.

I can't believe the amount of times I've had to reiterate this, so I'll just quote nobo instead.
Actually, the standard convention to have competitive altitude league matches on Sunday morning EST was demanded upon as early as the TL league in 2009, a necessity created by having to accommodate to Europeans. If it weren't for Europeans disliking to play at midnight on Sunday, I'm sure league games would have been set for Sunday night EST and would still be this way now.

If the proposal for the Europeans-not-liking-the-lag-on-US-servers issue is to have games alternately on US servers and on Euro servers, then I propose to solve the US-players-not-liking-the-timeslot issue is that we should make games alternately on Euro evening Sunday (currently the way it is now) and on US evening Sunday (which would make you Europeans have to play at midnight). I contend that it is unfair to solve the Euro's lag issue without solving the US timeslot issue. If we do both these things I'm sure you Europeans would dislike this system even more than the current one.

Currently the compromise is to have you Europeans play on our servers, and to have us US players play on your timeslot.

If you think that the timeslot issue is subservient to the lag issue, then we can also compromise to play always on Euro servers, but also always play on US timezones (thus Europeans play at midnight). This would sound reasonable to me.

Evan20000
01-17-2011, 07:31 PM
Addtionally, regardless of how valid your complaints may or may not be, your attitude about the server switch has completely shot that down as an option in CCN's eyes. Had you been civil about it, it very well could have happened.
Think about walking up to someone on the side of the road and telling them to give you 10 cents (Very low amount of US currency) or you will kill their family. This will likely land you in jail. Now imagine asking the person nicely and in a respectful way. What do you think is more likely to get you what you want?

Also, my friend was having this conversation (Asking nicely) with his 3 year old son; shame it also has to happen with grown men/women on an internet forum. :(

evilarsenal
01-17-2011, 07:49 PM
http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/5783/1294692404371.png

Wyrd
01-17-2011, 08:25 PM
Please point out the bit that corresponds to the "kill their family" part of your analogy in my request:
http://altitudegame.com/forums/showpost.php?p=100002&postcount=1

Sunaku
01-17-2011, 08:54 PM
Could you please link us to instances in which you said, "If the Skyleague admins wish to use EU-based servers in the next Skyleague, feel free to talk to me and we can work something out" or anything of the like?

You're (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showpost.php?p=52972&postcount=5) welcome (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showpost.php?p=62608&postcount=5).

I still find it rather amusing that after four APL's not one EU-based team has thought to bitch and moan incessantly about the servers they have to play on despite lag impacting TBD far more than it does ball, while every EU-based ball team suddenly has major issues with "favoritism to the US". It's rather telling, actually.
Just because one tournament is not ensuring equity, no tournament shall ever pursue equity? Just because people have not requested fairer rules until now, no one shall ever ask for fairer rules? This is nonsensical.

I find it rather puzzling that you keep pretending the subject is "suddenly" brought up, when this demand is in fact 8 months old.
At least thanks for showing us, brats, the way of the maturity, with insults. It's rather telling, actually.

@Evan20000 : Clearly being civil for 8 months worked out well. Or did it? There is no such thing as "regardless how valid our points are". If the points are valid, then you should put in place fairer rules for your tournament, not for us invidually. If the points are not valid, then I'm curious to see how.
But of course this is assuming the agressivity has been on our side. Yet so far, all the contempt and insults in this thread were against us. I hope this is not the type of "education" your friend is giving to his son.

The matter can only be sealed with good faith. Not with fallacies like "we would very much like to do something after x months, but seeing your attitude on this very day, I'm not sure anymore".

sunshineduck
01-17-2011, 09:02 PM
It's nice to know that Sunaku is, in fact, gemi. Not sure how this fact eluded us for so long.

Just because one tournament is not ensuring equity, no tournament shall ever pursue equity? Just because people have not requested fairer rules until now, no one shall ever ask for fairer rules? This is nonsensical.

lol

Wok3N^
01-17-2011, 09:03 PM
I am going to bold this to ensure that it is read. This statement seems to have delightfully skipped across everyone's monitors.

CCN and I will work with European server moderators for the next Skyleague but will not make any server changes for the present League. This is due to the fact that we are 3 rounds in. Please be patient and we will address this issue prior to the next Skyleague. Thank you.

Wyrd
01-17-2011, 09:12 PM
No, I paid attention, I appreciate! Feel the lov3! :)

CCN, Wok3n, like I said, I'm glad you're willing to consider changes, and that we're now mostly trying to see what can be done.

I understand why there will be no changes to SL3, it looks complicated enough to run already. And I like the experimental formats that surely add to the complication. :)

I'd like to hear your (CCN, Wok3n) thoughts on home and away (and middleground) rules.

Wok3N^
01-17-2011, 09:21 PM
Thank you Wyrd. It is not the complications, it is more of keeping the consistency. Because of the random seeding, we don't want to make it anymore unfair by giving one team a higher advantage of playing one week without lag when they normally would have to.

gemigemi
01-18-2011, 04:55 AM
I'm glad the organizers are willing to consider the requested changes. :) Very many thanks to you guys in advance and feel free to hit me on irc or through any other means to talk about getting access to run alti game servers on the arr VPS. ( <--- ssd, is this clear enough for you? or wanna troll more? :D )

CCN
01-18-2011, 05:00 AM
I don't think anyone has been trolling, I believe most people have tried to put their point of view forward.

Wok3N^
01-18-2011, 06:11 AM
Hey, all I can say is that I will be using bold a lot more from now on. It saves me from repetition.

sunshineduck
01-18-2011, 04:47 PM
the irony of the fact that when I ask someone to back up their claims with factual evidence it's dismissed as trolling and when I create a troll thread asking for people to hunt for unicorns they spend hours on the forums searching is literally killing me

Clapon
01-18-2011, 09:15 PM
the irony of the fact that when I ask someone to back up their claims with factual evidence it's dismissed as trolling and when I create a troll thread asking for people to hunt for unicorns they spend hours on the forums searching is literally killing me

yeah well ill finds those unicorns yet!

Sunaku
01-19-2011, 12:06 AM
the irony of the fact that when I ask someone to back up their claims with factual evidence it's dismissed as trolling and when I create a troll thread asking for people to hunt for unicorns they spend hours on the forums searching is literally killing me
I'm pointing you to quotes stating that EU servers were available all this time. If you can't connect the dots between Gemi and me, then you may not be fit to argue in this thread. Unless your "lol" answers were really meant to add something to the discussion, assuming you're trolling is actually doing you and your reading comprehension a favor.
Also, you should check the meaning of literally, or quickly call 911.

Wok3N^
01-19-2011, 12:21 AM
I appreciate this thread in bringing up a valid topic but it seems to have taken a turn I predicted long ago. This is a league organization thread and I would prefer to keep the "non-league" discussion to a minimum.

sunshineduck
01-19-2011, 12:29 AM
I'm pointing you to quotes stating that EU servers were available all this time. If you can't connect the dots between Gemi and me, then you may not be fit to argue in this thread. Unless your "lol" answers were really meant to add something to the discussion, assuming you're trolling is actually doing you and your reading comprehension a favor.
Also, you should check the meaning of literally, or quickly call 911.

I am aware that you and gemi are both on the same euro-based ball team, but you are not gemi. To my knowledge, a post in which you point out that there were euro servers available to play on and then another post linking to the first post is undeniably not the same as gemi offering his own server (and potentially the keys to the server configs) for official Skyleague use.

My "lol" was due to the fact that you continue to push the idea that APL and Skyleague are not promoting equality between US and EU teams because they don't split up games between EU and US despite the fact that I've already reiterated this same exact point over and over and over and over in this thread while all of you conveniently continue to ignore it. Here, I'll quote nobo again three more times for good measure, hopefully one of you decides to maybe read it. Not holding my breath.

Actually, the standard convention to have competitive altitude league matches on Sunday morning EST was demanded upon as early as the TL league in 2009, a necessity created by having to accommodate to Europeans. If it weren't for Europeans disliking to play at midnight on Sunday, I'm sure league games would have been set for Sunday night EST and would still be this way now.

If the proposal for the Europeans-not-liking-the-lag-on-US-servers issue is to have games alternately on US servers and on Euro servers, then I propose to solve the US-players-not-liking-the-timeslot issue is that we should make games alternately on Euro evening Sunday (currently the way it is now) and on US evening Sunday (which would make you Europeans have to play at midnight). I contend that it is unfair to solve the Euro's lag issue without solving the US timeslot issue. If we do both these things I'm sure you Europeans would dislike this system even more than the current one.

Currently the compromise is to have you Europeans play on our servers, and to have us US players play on your timeslot.

If you think that the timeslot issue is subservient to the lag issue, then we can also compromise to play always on Euro servers, but also always play on US timezones (thus Europeans play at midnight). This would sound reasonable to me.
Actually, the standard convention to have competitive altitude league matches on Sunday morning EST was demanded upon as early as the TL league in 2009, a necessity created by having to accommodate to Europeans. If it weren't for Europeans disliking to play at midnight on Sunday, I'm sure league games would have been set for Sunday night EST and would still be this way now.

If the proposal for the Europeans-not-liking-the-lag-on-US-servers issue is to have games alternately on US servers and on Euro servers, then I propose to solve the US-players-not-liking-the-timeslot issue is that we should make games alternately on Euro evening Sunday (currently the way it is now) and on US evening Sunday (which would make you Europeans have to play at midnight). I contend that it is unfair to solve the Euro's lag issue without solving the US timeslot issue. If we do both these things I'm sure you Europeans would dislike this system even more than the current one.

Currently the compromise is to have you Europeans play on our servers, and to have us US players play on your timeslot.

If you think that the timeslot issue is subservient to the lag issue, then we can also compromise to play always on Euro servers, but also always play on US timezones (thus Europeans play at midnight). This would sound reasonable to me.
Actually, the standard convention to have competitive altitude league matches on Sunday morning EST was demanded upon as early as the TL league in 2009, a necessity created by having to accommodate to Europeans. If it weren't for Europeans disliking to play at midnight on Sunday, I'm sure league games would have been set for Sunday night EST and would still be this way now.

If the proposal for the Europeans-not-liking-the-lag-on-US-servers issue is to have games alternately on US servers and on Euro servers, then I propose to solve the US-players-not-liking-the-timeslot issue is that we should make games alternately on Euro evening Sunday (currently the way it is now) and on US evening Sunday (which would make you Europeans have to play at midnight). I contend that it is unfair to solve the Euro's lag issue without solving the US timeslot issue. If we do both these things I'm sure you Europeans would dislike this system even more than the current one.

Currently the compromise is to have you Europeans play on our servers, and to have us US players play on your timeslot.

If you think that the timeslot issue is subservient to the lag issue, then we can also compromise to play always on Euro servers, but also always play on US timezones (thus Europeans play at midnight). This would sound reasonable to me.

beefheart
01-19-2011, 07:49 AM
Not again the same arguments SSD. I am going to skip your posts from now on.

The organizers shown interest in some sort of home and away system for SL4. So I think the discussion is closed for now until the format of next tournament is proposed.

nobodyhome
01-19-2011, 09:09 AM
Yeah, still no one has yet to be able to respond to my argument above.

And if anyone thinks I'm just pushing this point to be an annoying little b*tch and that the time zone problem is actually not a problem, let's just say that for the past two weeks my team (T.T) has had to play games at 9:40 and 10:25 AM PST on a Sunday morning. On week 2 we had 4 and literally had to get someone to text Mikesol in order to even have 5 and still didn't have enough and had to forfeit our first match. Last Sunday I didn't even bother waking up since I would've had 6 hours of sleep if I did and so I have no idea what happened, but judging from the results it doesn't look like we did too hot and I'd venture to say that if the match time was pushed an hour or so forward (which they are not done so, I reiterate, because of the fact that we have to accommodate Europeans and in exchange they agreed to play on US servers, an Altitude community-wide compromise that was agreed upon in the very first competitive leagues back in 2009) our team would've had an attendance of 3-4 more people and thus would've been significantly stronger.

beefheart
01-19-2011, 09:54 AM
Yeah ok, but i think this shouldnt be used as a compromise for the lag difference, but that it should be treated as a problem in its own right.

A possible solution for the time problem would be to push the matchtimes forward and let them start at 8 gmt. This would make scrim times for westcoasters 11 am. This would make things more equal imo. Although some eastern europe 12 year olds and their parents might disagree on that, so we will need some feedback from them.

Tekn0
01-19-2011, 10:25 AM
How many hours does a Skyleague tournament typically last for the team that wins the tourney (plays the most matches)? Around 3 hours?

Wyrd
01-19-2011, 11:16 AM
Nobodyhome, I don't think you are being an "annoying little b*tch". I did respond previously:

Is it fair to ask people to play at/after midnight before a work day, no. Is it fair to ask people to play before noon on a Sunday, [probably] not. Around GMT 20:00 seems to be a fair compromise between these two.
Is it fair to have all games played so lag hinders the same people always, no.

I do also agree that this issue
shouldnt be used as a compromise for the lag difference, but that it should be treated as a problem in its own right.

A later starting time would reduce the amount of games that can reasonably be played during one round, unless the format will support/permit/enforce scheduling EU-EU games earlier on the day and US - US games later, with EU-US games in between. That seems like an amicable and workable solution. Finals, however, would be a bit problematic when there's EU teams in it (even when not, many EU players would like to watch them), since these would be after all the other games, at least in the current one closed round per Sunday format. Just to be clear I'm not objecting to the current format, having finals every week is fun.

Let us not forget continent #3. I don't know what times 18:00 and 20:00 GMT are in Asia. Looking it up. Okay, picking India at +5:30 and Tokyo +9:00 to represent Asian timezone range, so on average about 7 hours and change later. SL's quite late for them already. Moving it even later would make it so deep in the night that it's almost morning territory for them, especially the later rounds in the current format. This can be a bigger hurdle, since
This league strives to allow players from all over the world to play. Not just Euros or Americans. No solution will be implemented that excludes Asians and South Americans.
I don't know if the competing Asian players are night owls and would like playing even later.

Tekn0
01-19-2011, 11:47 AM
I wonder if anyone has brought up the "tired at the end of day" argument for EU folks ... :p

CCN
01-19-2011, 12:47 PM
Hong Kong Skyleague starts 2am finishes past 7 most times, later sometimes but I call it a night then.

5-6am is when normal people get up to go to work, so i'd pretty firmly put that into the "morning territory".

However, Nobo's server point is a good one, and the PST problem (I didn't realise it was so early) is something I will have to add to the list of something to do.

Asking people to get up at 9:40am on a sunday may be a bit much.

Wyrd
01-19-2011, 12:58 PM
Hong Kong Skyleague starts 2am finishes past 7 most times, later sometimes but I call it a night then.

5-6am is when normal people get up to go to work, so i'd pretty firmly put that into the "morning territory".

However, Nobo's server point is a good one, and the PST problem (I didn't realise it was so early) is something I will have to add to the list of something to do.

Asking people to get up at 9:40am on a sunday may be a bit much.

7 am here is more usual.
And man, stupid timezones, stupid ping. :\

Wyrd
01-19-2011, 02:37 PM
Dude, wth, why are you attacking me? I was being considerate of Asians who have to play SL very late, and very very late/early if timeslot of SL would be moved to 20:00. Just because I called 20:00 GMT very late at night (because for much of Asia it is) while it is morning in Japan, and Eastern Asia?

My original post was very similar to this one, asking you why you were being angry and wondering if you misinterpreted my post.

Edit: Cheers.

CCN
01-19-2011, 05:11 PM
I took a bit of drunk anger on you a bit unnecessarily. Your posts on the whole have been decently reasoned.
My apologies. I deleted the unnecessary post. Although I interpreted your edit message "CCN edited his post to be more civil, I will too " - In a Connotation that your post was uncivil pre-edit.


In a rewording of what I meant most of the people from Asia who play currently are Indonesia/Taiwan/China/That area which is +8 (1 srilanka). Maybe this is a mistaken belief but its definitely not one I can expect you to know.