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CCN
02-02-2011, 01:08 PM
Tiebreaker (For Second Place) Goal Seeding Group 1 (Apl2)
Arr (1)
Ah (2)
TT(3)



Tiebreaker 2: (For First and Second Place) (Apl3)
Air (4)
Tv0 (5)
Twisted (6)


Format:
Round Robin
EXAMPLE:
A v B
Then winner of AvB vC.
Winner of that vs the team sitting.

The first team to a 2 wins advances.

In group 2, with two teams advancing, after the first advancement the remaining two teams will play out until one more team has an aggregate of 2 wins (total, against both teams, not just the other remaining team).

Max of 5 games per group,

5 maps
Darkwar, Snow, Maze, Labrynth, Core


Teams will veto down maps until the order is determined for each matchup. The sitting team vetos first.
A map can only be used once. (E.g. so for match 3, if darkwar and snow have already been made the map pool is maze, labyrinth, core)

DO NOT TAKE FOREVER ON YOUR VETOS, have them ready. The two playing teams veto alternately, sitting team does not veto.

For the first match Arr vs Ah, Ah Vetos first
For the first match Air Vs Twisted, Twisted Vetos first
The team coming off the bench veto's second.

Times: 6th Feburary, 2:15pm EST
2:15pm Match 1
2:40 Match 2
Next matches start after the last one ends. after match 2

Addenuem: Any problems/complaints please PM to me, ones posted here will be ignored. I am also pming an admin in hopes they can keep this thread clean.

York
02-02-2011, 02:35 PM
this is seriously the worst way of doing it, ever. please fix


first to 2 wins? *facepalm*

CCN
02-02-2011, 02:49 PM
this is seriously the worst way of doing it, ever. please fix


first to 2 wins? *facepalm*

Constructive as always.

I'm happy with it, if you have a complaint you can send it to my pm box.

York
02-02-2011, 03:12 PM
Constructive as always.

I'm happy with it, if you have a complaint you can send it to my pm box.

Your PM box doesn't desserve my messages.


Each team plays each other ONE TIME and who ever does the ebst wins.

If a team wins against both teams then they are in. Then the other team gets in.

If its a 1-1 tie all around then who ever scores more points gets in. so simple

classicallad
02-02-2011, 03:23 PM
I think CCN's idea works fine, not really a way to speak to someone who is giving up their free time so fun for all can be had.

CCN
02-02-2011, 03:30 PM
York - this is being done the way I specified

If you can't even be respectful about my wishes on how to post your problems/suggestions don't expect me to read your post let alone use your idea.

Don't pollute my thread.

Edit:
Thanks Class

Ingbo
02-02-2011, 03:38 PM
I think CCN's idea works fine, not really a way to speak to someone who is giving up their free time so fun for all can be had.

Even though i disagree with some of the things in this league in general i will def give a BIG +1 to this. CCN is giving up a lot of time to do this things like "OMFG THIS SUCKS" is really no way to respond to it, or to anything else for that matter.

CCN
02-02-2011, 03:42 PM
Even though i disagree with some of the things in this league in general i will def give a BIG +1 to this. CCN is giving up a lot of time to do this things like "OMFG THIS SUCKS" is really no way to respond to it, or to anything else for that matter.

I am fairly interested in what you disagree with, please send me a PM with what you feel could be improved.

Im more then happy to take opinions/advice, but the general tone and nature of how complaints have gone has come to a point beyond what I am willing to tolerate, if people can not be decent in how they treat their complaints/suggestions they do not deserve to be treated seriously and given my time.


However, I can see now I am helping this thread get off the main thread point of the tiebreaker details.

Ribilla
02-02-2011, 04:04 PM
Your PM box doesn't desserve my messages.


Each team plays each other ONE TIME and who ever does the ebst wins.



York, if you would like to consider what will actually happen under CCNs plan, it would appear to be almost exactly the same as this.

MintzMachete
02-02-2011, 04:04 PM
so if team one wins both the first 2 games, 2 and 3 play a bo3?

Is that correct?

CCN
02-02-2011, 04:07 PM
so if team one wins both the first 2 games, 2 and 3 play a bo3?

Is that correct?

yeapppppppppppppp

Sunaku
02-02-2011, 04:13 PM
York could have been more constructive in his first post, but then again, why would he? When you are facing someone saying :

If people have other problems with the format, they can complain outside of this thread. Please also be advised I will not be reading said complaints.
If you want to give feedback create a thread, any and all feedback posted here is ignored.
why in the world would you bother posting feedback anymore, if it's to be ignored no matter how constructive it is?

You don't get to tell people to go to hell and expect respectful criticism in return. Respect goes both ways. If you want to be respected, show some respect first. Doing something for free does not give you the right to treat people like dirt.

CCN
02-02-2011, 04:24 PM
On that topic, which you pulled the first quote from I was not going to make any more changes (as it would be super retarded to), people couldn't quite understand that. Hence the 1st quote and 2nd quote.

This is a different topic, and if people have problems that are serious/ have merit then send me a PM. Which, if you read, won't be ignored.

Many people have shown me that they are but children who just cry when they don't get their way - these people will be treated like children. I am not here to listen to crying children.

I gave people the chance to make criticisms unrestricted, and it was abused. No more.
If you don't want to give respectful criticism, keep it outside the thread. More then welcome to make a disrespectful xyz post in a thread you yourself create and don't mind getting derailed.

Ingbo
02-02-2011, 04:25 PM
york wasnt facing that tho in his initial critisicm and thereafter set the standard for the conversation.

Sunaku
02-02-2011, 05:09 PM
Many people have shown me that they are but children who just cry when they don't get their way - these people will be treated like children. I am not here to listen to crying children.

Again you're dismissing every possible criticism with a derogatory attitude. "Super retarded" changes? People are just children? That's not the kind of condescension you would expect from a league organizer. Casual courtesy aside, it's above all counterproductive to the project you're trying to achieve.


I gave people the chance to make criticisms unrestricted, and it was abused. No more.
You don't "give" people the chance, freedom of speech does. This is the Altitude forums, not CCN's PM box. Leagues are not a private matter, people will be posting feedback related to your tournament in your tournament threads. That's how forums work.

york wasnt facing that tho in his initial critisicm and thereafter set the standard for the conversation.
This thread is a direct follow-up to the previous one (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5991). CCN set the standard for the conversation there. I.e.: No conversation. Indifference doesn't sound very constructive.

Note that I'm not gonna argue for pages. I'm just highlighting the fallacy of ignoring constructive feedback and then pretending to be a victim. If anything, you derailed your own threads by choosing to reject any comment in the first place.

CCN
02-02-2011, 05:21 PM
My privately run league on privately run servers is going to be run in my privately chosen manner.

There is nothing else to it.

If you want your problems answered you will abide by these rules, if you want them ignored you will not.

Wok3N^
02-02-2011, 05:31 PM
Sunaku, CCN isn't dismissing criticism. This is a league thread saying what the format will be. League threads aren't meant for this non-stop complaining and criticism. He said, "If you want to complain or criticize, go make another thread." If you really care about it this much, then please do so.

Honestly, CCN is the head moderator of Skyleague. He has done it for 3 seasons and teams consistently sign up, proving his and the league's success. Please don't doubt him.

Duck Duck Pwn
02-02-2011, 05:34 PM
Hey can i flame ccn in this thread

please

(ps i'm fine with this set up i guess, and we should seriously stop giving ccn such a hard time about this)

Ribilla
02-02-2011, 05:57 PM
You don't "give" people the chance, freedom of speech does. This is the Altitude forums, not CCN's PM box. Leagues are not a private matter, people will be posting feedback related to your tournament in your tournament threads. That's how forums work.

Make your own league? Also I think freedom of speech is a little grand for the altitude forums, CCN is allowing people to say what they want, but in a different thread, we can choose to ignore it. In the same way I am allowed to say "Sunaku is a smelly face" you don't have to agree with it, or even acknowledge it.

Also the organisation of leagues is not really a public matter. It's not as if everyone in the world who watches football (proper, British football) casts a vote on how the Champion's league is structured, it is decided by the FA. CCN is essentially the FA in this case, so stop QQing. If he does something truely insane, then by all means point it out somewhere, but I don't think what he has suggested is so crazy.

Sunaku
02-02-2011, 06:32 PM
Make your own league? Also I think freedom of speech is a little grand for the altitude forums, CCN is allowing people to say what they want, but in a different thread, we can choose to ignore it. In the same way I am allowed to say "Sunaku is a smelly face" you don't have to agree with it, or even acknowledge it.
"Make your own stuff" sounds like the typical response from people who can't handle criticism. The point is not that SL is ran privately, but that CCN is using the public forums to promote it. Which is perfectly fine and makes sense. The same way it is fine and makes sense to post feedback on specific rounds in those specific rounds threads.

You think freedom of speech is a little grand, and yet you find it handy when it comes to hiding cheap insults behind quotation marks, right? This logic sounds paradoxical to say the least. I could use the same process but instead I'll just point you to the keyword : "constructive". Unfortunately, your example does not have this merit. Let's not play that hypocritical dance, asking to post feedback elsewhere than the threads it's directly related to is just an easy way of dismissing it.

If he does something truely insane, then by all means point it out somewhere, but I don't think what he has suggested is so crazy.It is and I pointed it out somewhere, being the previous thread. Tiebreakers were already there, playing other tiebreakers is useless. Reading the whole discussion helps a lot in understanding the context.

As a final note to stop derailing this thread, I'll just add that the "non-stop" complaining wouldn't be nearly as non-stop if it was listened to in the first place. In the end, taking the indifference route is just annoying for both sides, hence counterproductive.

CCN
02-02-2011, 06:54 PM
In 3 seasons of Skyleague I have never used goals scored as a tiebreaker; it is unfair to use it without warning after teams have already played the games, and it was always my intent in scenario of tied wins to have a playoff (ala the tiebreaker section of last week's tourney thread, though I made the mistake of not defining what a tie is specifically - tied number of wins with goals scored not counting). So I will stick to what I have always used for fairness sake, map wins.

I think with that last bit said.

For any other problems PM, if you want an actual reply.


Edit: Reiteration: I don't think everyone who complains is a child, but people who are children do complain. (()) - Venn Diagram

Ribilla
02-02-2011, 06:56 PM
You think freedom of speech is a little grand, and yet you find it handy when it comes to hiding cheap insults behind quotation marks, right?



I'm not going to bother answering most of that, because it's basically just a repeat of what you said before. I think we'll just have to disagree and you can take your grievances to another thread.

But this ^^^, I was just trying to make a point that people can say stupid things that we don't have to listen to. I chose the most retarded insult I could to demonstrate this point. Do you really think that if I was genuinely trying to insult someone I would call them a "smelly face"?

Ajuk999
02-02-2011, 06:57 PM
CCN, I appreciate what you've done for the Altitude Community by running these three leagues, it's helped clans get better and it's made the clan/league scene more interesting.

Kudos my friend.

drunkguava
02-02-2011, 10:20 PM
CCN, I appreciate what you've done for the Altitude Community by running these three leagues, it's helped clans get better and it's made the clan/league scene more interesting.

Kudos my friend.
get off his dick, ajuk.

rojo
02-02-2011, 10:31 PM
get off his dick, ajuk.

Yea man, you're holding up the line.

andy
02-02-2011, 11:51 PM
Playing 1v2 then winner v3 and first to two games advancing is exactly the same as playing all games. I dont see why your all bitching about it. People have problems with logic and maths on this forum.

Clapon
02-03-2011, 12:15 AM
get off his dick, ajuk.

get on his dick, D-goov

Duck Duck Pwn
02-03-2011, 01:51 AM
Andy is somewhat right in saying it's the same.

the theory:

It's the same as 3 team round robin, except it decides not to pit the loser of the first rematch between team 1 and team 2 against team 3, if there is a cycle, to try to put a time constraint on cycling (in the 2 team move on set up). The only possible way that there is any effect at all is if team 3 has a particular advantage over team 1 which they do not have over team 2. If this is not the case, then it is the exact same. And considering that CCN used seeding criteria in deciding each bracket's team 3, this seems completely fair in the 2 teams move on bracket.

In the 1 team moves on bracket, it is slightly worse, but since i am not in that bracket, i happen not to care about it as much. Here, if there is cycling, team 3, instead of playing the team that they probably lost to (although not necessarily; the other team might win in a rematch), they have no rematch potential if there is a cycle. There really should be no discussion of fairness in my bracket; there arguably could be in arr/tt/ah's, but I will address this point in the tl;dr

And if there is no cycle, then the best team is moving on anyway. This is the most likely scenario anyway, as the best team tends to be aggregately better regardless of a match-up issue.

the examples:

Look at what happened last week with us, twisted, and air. If we had this tiebreak last week, what would have happened is this:

AIR beats tVo
Twisted beats AIR
tVo beats Twisted

tVo plays AIR again
winner moves on and loser plays twisted
winner moves on

you can apply the same thing to last week with the other 3, but you have to take away everything after the first "winner moves on." As andy said, it's the same as last week. And then we add a tie-breaker.

the tl;dr:

This is basically just a round robin. This is pool play if we have a normal 2 win, 1 win, 0 win bracket after all teams play. However, it adds in a somewhat arbitrary, but generally fair tiebreaker based on winning and losing. This is as fair as any system with winning and losing being the deciding factor of moving on will ever be if we want to put an artificial cap on cycling short of making it "first to 3 wins," etc. And with it being super bowl weekend, i know i do.

CCN knows what he is doing, and I do not want an infinite playoff, as I alluded to before. This is a very good set-up, in that it gives a bit of a 2nd chance for games to not involve cycling, but without lasting forever. Short of non win/loss measures having effect on the results, this is as fair a set-up as there will be, certainly for the tvo/air/twisted set up and arguably so for the other one.

mjolnir416
02-03-2011, 02:38 AM
I like this tie breaker system, but hate the map pool :( Needs more plane park. (Just a statement not criticism)

CCN
02-03-2011, 07:07 AM
I like planepark too, let me poke mikesol again :D

Mystery
02-03-2011, 03:39 PM
Can you explain the veto map thing to me please?

CCN
02-03-2011, 03:58 PM
Can you explain the veto map thing to me please?

The two playing teams veto alternately

Mt.Vesuvius
02-03-2011, 04:14 PM
Each playing team takes turns saying a map that they don't want to play until you get down to one map which you play on.

classicallad
02-03-2011, 04:51 PM
ok, i get the veto bit down, but how do you win again?

XX1
02-03-2011, 06:58 PM
ok, i get the veto bit down, but how do you win again?
score more goals than opposing team.

Mt.Vesuvius
02-03-2011, 07:04 PM
Wut... I thought this was tdm...

Tekn0
02-04-2011, 10:09 AM
Each playing team takes turns saying a map that they don't want to play until you get down to one map which you play on.

So that is what "veto" is.. :D

Nikon
02-04-2011, 04:40 PM
umm, so does {ball} play?

andy
02-04-2011, 04:56 PM
umm, so does {ball} play?

not this week.

mikesol
02-04-2011, 07:28 PM
Has any thought been given to the fact that this sunday is the superbowl? My team already has a hard time showing up - but if everyone is at superbowl parties nobody will show up =(

CCN
02-04-2011, 07:30 PM
Has any thought been given to the fact that this sunday is the superbowl? My team already has a hard time showing up - but if everyone is at superbowl parties nobody will show up =(

yah thats why its gonna be quick and early. Superbowls like 6 or summat, this setup guarantees its over in 5 games or less.

mjolnir416
02-05-2011, 05:53 AM
Don't worry, if this gets anywhere close to the super bowl I will rage blow up the internet.

mikesol
02-05-2011, 06:22 AM
Well some members of my team has already said they aren't really going to make it because they'll be drunk by the time the games start >.>;;;

I apologize ahead of time if I'm the only one to show up for the games.

Stormich
02-05-2011, 07:28 AM
As the only (I think) Euro on (T.T) I'll show up, probably really hungover, but I'll be there. Also, why not just play drunk? Show up get some balling done, go back to drinking :D

Nikon
02-05-2011, 07:28 PM
k, I'm taking andy's word for it and not showing up tomorrow. I sure hope we don't have any games.

drunkguava
02-06-2011, 08:38 PM
results? ?

tmic225
02-06-2011, 08:40 PM
tVo > &Twisted& 6-0

tVo > =AIR= 6-2

GGs Twisted and AIR

darknietzsche
02-06-2011, 08:41 PM
Arr won in our group and I know tvo was one of the two from the other group and I think twisted ended up winning over air if I am not mistaking.

rojo
02-06-2011, 08:42 PM
Arr won in our group and I know tvo was one of the two from the other group and I think twisted ended up winning over twisted if I am not mistaking.

I lol'd at this. &&>== I believe. GGs to AIR and Twisted today.

darknietzsche
02-06-2011, 08:43 PM
I lol'd at this. &&>== I believe. GGs to AIR and Twisted today.

oops lol yeah I typed it fast

JWhatever
02-06-2011, 09:45 PM
tv0 and && came first and second.

AIR lost all of its games.

-J

drunkguava
02-06-2011, 10:34 PM
lol, so it'll be a preview of the playoffs in the top bracket next week :D. It should determine the winner of the season as well as all of the places. Exciting

seeds if i'm not mistaken:
1) ball
2) tvo
3) twisted
4) arr

cipso
02-07-2011, 12:54 PM
Arr games recorded:

AH vs Arr: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_FVG-nqizQ
TT vs Arr: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VubvvN676eg