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View Full Version : Map Voting Should Be Random


shrode
04-10-2011, 11:27 PM
1. It doesn't make sense competitively for people to be able to pick maps they are better at.
2. a. Map variety is too limited when you allow people to select maps.
b. Thus, I'm ****ING sick of roids, and I'm even more ****ING sick of cave.

With this, much attention should be given to the random maps, so that people generally like all the maps in random and don't have a reason to not call random.(cough ball_ice and hardwood should be removed)

Maps that aren't in random selection should still be vote-able.

Greekjr14
04-10-2011, 11:32 PM
1. It doesn't make sense competitively for people to be able to pick maps they are better at.
2. a. Map variety is too limited when you allow people to select maps.
b. Thus, I'm ****ING sick of roids, and I'm even more ****ING sick of cave.

With this, much attention should be given to the random maps, so that people generally like all the maps in random and don't have a reason to not call random.(cough ball_ice and hardwood should be removed)

Maps that aren't in random selection should still be vote-able.

Even though I agree with all of this, including about being sick of most popular maps being voted all the time. On the other hand though, most maps are normally replayed over and over again through random, sometimes 3 times in a row.

shrode
04-10-2011, 11:38 PM
that's a lie. Random prevents repeats now.

However, it did just pick cave and then roids :\

Greekjr14
04-10-2011, 11:41 PM
that's a lie. Random prevents repeats now.

However, it did just pick cave and then roids :\

When I meant repeat, i meant its back within a short time. For example, I've been in ladder where the maps went from Cave-Fallout-Cave-Roids-Fallout. It gets old. I think that if we had more people making new maps everyday and worked hard enough to get them ladder worthy, then there would be more variety for random.

XX1
04-11-2011, 02:57 AM
When I meant repeat, i meant its back within a short time. For example, I've been in ladder where the maps went from Cave-Fallout-Cave-Roids-Fallout. It gets old. I think that if we had more people making new maps everyday and worked hard enough to get them ladder worthy, then there would be more variety for random.

What fallout is really liked that much??
I thought it was like Asteroids, cave, Justice or something(WHEN DONK IS NOT PLAYING ON JUSTICE)

I must agree with shrode somewhat because this applies to map makers, who make maps but they have to be custom started, and are not in the random rotation. Half of the maps just sit their and collect dust and its just wasting hard work that people put time in. I was very lucky to get people to play 1 game of Sanctum in ladder the other day(or early this morning). And if it wasn't for people who wanted to try something new, or actually wanted to help out for a decent cause the map wouldn't have been played.
There are some new maps people don't play because they claim its bad or takes too long. If the map is bad, well then it probably shouldn't be ladder worthy yet, until fixed.

LOL SSD IS IN CHARGE OF MAPS LOLOLGJ. -_-

silent skies
04-11-2011, 05:53 AM
*shrug* I am thankful that SSD got the map up on ladder to begin with. Having it be on the 'random' rotation would be helpful.

sunshineduck
04-11-2011, 06:38 AM
XX2, I think you should learn some basic reading comprehension skills before you start spamming the forums. Genesis never said anything about people choosing to play fallout.

RE: the rest of your post:

I don't know why I've had to repeat this so many times, but ladder has never been and will never be a testing grounds for new maps. I think people seem to forget that before I took over the map pool, there was literally 0 action on the map testing front ladder-side. I started getting maps added to the custom_test function. When people started complaining that they didn't want to play maps for 0 points in ladder, I started putting maps that showed exemplary promise but weren't tested enough to be in the random rotation on custom_start. That is the largest extent I am willing to go with pure map testing on ladder. I tried to organize a weekly map testing captains game, but nobody was ever interested so I eventually gave up that cause. The Pwned! tournament was a huge success and got tons of new maps excellent feedback, and is entirely the reason volcano is currently on the random rotation.

There's not really much else I can do, my hands are tied. I've played on at least 90% of the new maps that have been posted alone just to see if there are any major gameplay-related glitches, and when I'm able to I post feedback just based on the general layout of the map. I put hardcourt and ice on the random rotation without ever playing a full 6v6 match on either map, and while ice has been wholly a failure that will be fixed soon, hardcourt has been rather successful imo. One of the biggest problems is that there simply isn't a huge demand for new maps in ladder. I firmly believe that the optimal ladder map pool has enough maps to keep games fresh and fun, but not too many as to make learning specific playstyles and nuances on each map irrelevant. I think we've pegged this number fairly well to be 16 on both ladders, and right now both ladders have 16 maps. That means that unless your map is one of the best 16 maps ever made for that mode, it's simply not going to make the cut.

As much as I want to further creative development, it's really not in my hands to make sure maps that are made get tested. Nikon remains the only person I know with both the connections and the stubbornness to get his map tested multiple times in ladder and out of it and continue to make corrections and push his map forward. I know that it sucks that it takes so much effort to make a map and then even more effort to get it tested, but there's really not much more I can do. Sorry.

shrode
04-11-2011, 06:45 AM
ok lolwtf stop hijacking my thread. This thread is about forcing random, not testing maps. I just threw that piece at the end so that people who have maps on ladder which never get played anyway won't get butthurt, as it wouldn't really change anything by leaving those maps voteable.

But seriously, maps in the random rotation should not be vote custom start-able, so we don't have to deal with cave, roids, cave, roids, cave, *people finally pick random- server randomized roids*, cave.

sunshineduck
04-11-2011, 07:15 AM
If it's such a hassle to everyone, why do the votes keep passing? It's an 80% vote threshold. :\

shrode
04-11-2011, 07:21 AM
They pass because more than 80% of people hit 1 unless it's either a map that's not popular or the map they just played simply because they don't want to waste time waiting for another vote to pass. It's more than just the map variety thing though. It is fundamentally broken to allow a person to skew the tides in his favor, and selecting maps can allow for this. Nobody wants to play vs donk on justice, yet, when he starts a vote to break a loss streak, it passes and he wins.

It doesn't take a genius to see the gaping flaw in the system.

sunshineduck
04-11-2011, 07:34 AM
actually, donk himself hates playing on justice >__>

and i don't think the current system is being abused because players want to tide the favor specifically one way or another rating-wise, they do it because the maps are enjoyable to play on and are generally considered the best maps in the rotation. i don't think we need to prevent something that hasn't been a common or recurring behavior all throughout season 1.

ryebone
04-11-2011, 07:36 AM
Nobody wants to play vs donk on justice, yet, when he starts a vote to break a loss streak, it passes and he wins.

Four lucky 1-pressers will get to be ON donk's team when that happens.

Otherwise yes, I feel like the ability to vote specific maps provides an inherent advantage for some players who are clearly better at certain maps over others. Especially if they were specced previously, so that they are guaranteed to play.


EDIT: To be clear, I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I don't know if this is a prevalent problem or not. As far as I can tell, there hasn't been any egregious abuse of this function, as the majority of games I've seen have been started with start_random. Thus, I'm agreeing with you only based on the assumption that this is a common occurrence, which I can neither confirm or deny.

sunshineduck
04-11-2011, 07:40 AM
is that a gamebreaking advantage though? there are maybe five active players who can singlehandedly win a tbd game against equal competition, one of which is permabanned and the other of which doesn't play ladder because of an inherent lack of equal competition.

i realize that your donk example was purely metaphorical, but in this case if donk was abusing the fact that justice is his best map, wouldn't it not also be his least played map?

the fact that nobody wants to play against donk on justice means nothing in the context that nobody wants to play against donk on any map period.

elxir
04-11-2011, 08:03 AM
I like when players such as donk vote cave (for example), there's nothing better than playing the best where they are most comfortable

shrode
04-11-2011, 08:15 AM
I just don't see the point in leaving something that we can agree could be potentially abusable only to allow two overrated maps to become insanely overplayed.

sunshineduck
04-11-2011, 08:25 AM
because it's never been abused and that whether or not the maps are overrated is completely an issue of personal opinion?

there are many that could potentially be abused. any player could go spend massive amounts of free time learning the nooks and crannies of one of the other ladder maps on the server for testing purposes and call the vote for one of those maps and, by your logic, dominate the game because they know the map like no other player does.

the function allows users to vote to play maps that they feel are highly enjoyable. if the cave/roids/cave/roids rotation is really too much for people to handle, then they should probably consider looking at what is being voted for before pressing 1. if it's not an issue, then it's not an issue.

silent skies
04-11-2011, 10:22 AM
I think we've pegged this number fairly well to be 16 on both ladders, and right now both ladders have 16 maps. That means that unless your map is one of the best 16 maps ever made for that mode, it's simply not going to make the cut.

Maybe I should just scratch the TBD version and go for TDM, then.

Why 16, though?

Tekn0
04-11-2011, 10:28 AM
Random prevents continuous repetitions i.e. 2 in a row, but if you're like me who spec's alternate games, you can very easily get 3 times in a row the same map. Once I remember getting lost city/maze 3 times in a row.

What's worse is getting the same rev biplane or rev-acid-repair loopy (who goes 1-18) over and over. It's very possible to get 4 or 5 games in a row (if you spec alternatively) to get people like this on your team.

It's part of the ladder law, there is nothing that can be done. Luck is still a factor in ladder and especially in start of season where everyone knows until it settles the team balance will be way off. Let's just all hope it settles soon! :)

Also, ball_ice is okay.

sunshineduck
04-11-2011, 08:45 PM
Maybe I should just scratch the TBD version and go for TDM, then.

Why 16, though?

It's a solid number of maps that makes it so on a typical night you won't literally be playing the same maps over but still makes each map come up relatively often. I mean, obviously we could go for 1 more map in each mode and it wouldn't make the but the slightest difference in that area, but it's a really pretty number that allows for a neat-o keen 12 to 4 team to neutral map ratio. :P

drunkguava
04-11-2011, 09:02 PM
It's a solid number of maps that makes it so on a typical night you won't literally be playing the same maps over but still makes each map come up relatively often. I mean, obviously we could go for 1 more map in each mode and it wouldn't make the but the slightest difference in that area, but it's a really pretty number that allows for a neat-o keen 12 to 4 team to neutral map ratio. :P

in other words, it's completely arbitrary :p

silent skies
04-12-2011, 12:28 AM
It's a solid number of maps that makes it so on a typical night you won't literally be playing the same maps over but still makes each map come up relatively often.

I thought that the common complaint was that the exact opposite is happening.

Why does it have to be completely random? Why not adopt some sort of strike-out system? i.e. in the pool of 16, once a map is played, it is temporarily removed from the random pool, as is the next one, as is the next one, etc., until all 16 maps are played once, and then the pool 'resets' to the original 16? This would more or less give equal attention to all maps.

Possible downside I guess is that people would know which maps would be at the end of each cycle and possibly refuse playing ... though that would be a clear indicator of just how unpopular a particular map is.

sunshineduck
04-12-2011, 12:36 AM
is that a common complaint? i had received exactly 0 complaints about the size of the map pool or of the rarity (or lack thereof) of maps being played prior to your completely understandable issue from the mapmaker's side.

equal attention is only optimal in a map pool in which all maps are created equal. in this case, especially with such a clear division between neutral and team bomb maps, it's definitely not the best solution to whatever problem it is you're attempting to solve.

silent skies
04-12-2011, 12:39 AM
Sorry, I was referring to:

won't literally be playing the same maps over

in my last post. I thought it was a common complaint (read: the original purpose of this thread, even) that the opposite is happening, as many people end up playing the same maps over and over again.

My first two games yesterday were both on volcano, and that was even with start_random three times in a row (forced spec the 2nd game).

I'm not even really talking about sanctum at this point.

sunshineduck
04-12-2011, 12:47 AM
the original complaint of the thread isn't with the random function, it's with the fact people continuously call custom start votes for cave and asteroids. this issue wouldn't change with either the addition of more maps or with the strike-out system you proposed.

silent skies
04-12-2011, 12:51 AM
okaychars.

JonOFFon
04-24-2011, 03:46 PM
lol elix, i never vote cave

Kuja900
04-24-2011, 04:13 PM
I'm in favor of all votes being random, also in favor of taking each and every neutral map out of the pool. Its ridiculous how long those maps make spectators wait.

elxir
04-24-2011, 05:54 PM
lol elix, i never vote cave

lieschars.

dr. carbon
04-27-2011, 03:53 AM
1. It doesn't make sense competitively for people to be able to pick maps they are better at.
2. a. Map variety is too limited when you allow people to select maps.
b. Thus, I'm ****ING sick of roids, and I'm even more ****ING sick of cave.

With this, much attention should be given to the random maps, so that people generally like all the maps in random and don't have a reason to not call random.(cough ball_ice and hardwood should be removed)

Maps that aren't in random selection should still be vote-able.


who cares?

MajorPayne257
04-27-2011, 04:54 AM
I think shrode might