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View Full Version : Sky League 4 format


andy
05-23-2011, 09:51 AM
We are thinking about starting sky league in 3 weeks so it can be over before summer. Before that i would like to discuss the format with everyone to avoid having to read rage posts during the season.

beefheart
05-24-2011, 01:51 PM
Actually i am not really a fan of play offs. I mean i come from europe where we dont really have that kind of system.

What i would like to have is only a regular season, where every team plays the other teams twice (home and away), 3 games per match, in which the teams get 1 point for every game they win. At the end of the season, the team with the most points win.

This way it takes like a couple of months to complete the season. But i say why not.

sunshineduck
05-24-2011, 02:02 PM
SL3 format was amazingly fun. getting to play top quality matches every scheduled week was great.

gustav27
05-24-2011, 03:05 PM
I agree with Beef. A regular season where you play everyone once or twice would be nice and where you have more than one match a week more like 2 or even 3.

sunshineduck
05-24-2011, 03:34 PM
am i the only one that actually remembers how sl3 was run?

beefheart
05-24-2011, 04:20 PM
sl3 was like every week another mini tourney, with some new set up, right?

The advantage of having a season in which you play everyone twice, is that the end of season rankings provide a far more accurate oversight of how good each clan is compared to others. While in knock out tourney's, whether you reach finals largely depend on the clans that are in your poule.

Tekn0
05-24-2011, 04:28 PM
Can someone explain the concept of "playoffs" in Altitude terms? I've not played in SL before.

sunshineduck
05-24-2011, 04:31 PM
@beef: yes, that was the concept. a playoff at the end of the regular season (which you are against because you are from europe) solves that problem, i was not proposing said mini tourney format in a no-playoff league.

@tekno: playoffs in altitude work just like playoffs everywhere else. if you are really confused, see the APL5 playoffs bracket thread.

beefheart
05-24-2011, 04:40 PM
No regular season already fixes that problem. Playoffs only lengthen the process.

edit: imo

sunshineduck
05-24-2011, 04:45 PM
yeah, but in a regular season format you aren't guaranteed quality games every week. there are some weeks that honestly aren't even worth showing up for. with a tourney format, you get fun competitive games week in and week out.

andy
05-24-2011, 05:15 PM
yeah, but in a regular season format you aren't guaranteed quality games every week. there are some weeks that honestly aren't even worth showing up for. with a tourney format, you get fun competitive games week in and week out.

This is basically why i like the SL3 system. imo regular season is just lame while playoffs are the real fun part, but if you can get playoffs every week wouldnt that be fun?

JWhatever
05-24-2011, 06:48 PM
I would prefer a round robin (everyone against everyon) with an ascension type of a tournament at the end of the pre-season (I'm not 100% about whether that is a well recognized tournament system or whether it's called that.)

Essentially the point system would be the same as in Dougies current WABL (points for match wins, points for game wins, extra points for 6-0 wins and some pity points for 5-6 losses). At the end of the pre-season, the team with the most points would get the highest seed in the ascension table whereas the worst team would be at the bottom.

If 2 would end up with the same amount of points, they would play a bo3 against each other. (or the seed would be defined by goal difference / win difference etc.).

The image below is for 7 teams (2 of the worst teams would be placed to the F slot / Game 1). The winner of the first game would advance to the next one, loser would drop out and end up 7th.

http://img807.yfrog.com/img807/6039/ascsension.jpg

Pros and cons.

Pros:
-every team would get the chance to play against every other team. In the previous SL, our team had to play in the first 4 events against arr, ball, arr and twisted on the first round. Those teams happened to be in the top 4 at the end of playoffs. We got practicly zero "easy" games (ala games against teams that were worse in rank then us). Sorry for still bitching about it, but as I said, that was not fair.

-teams that have played well would get rewarded accordingly.

-teams that might have had a couple of bad games would still have an opportunity to rise during the ascension.

-teams could organize the dates and times for their games.

Cons:
-a lot more games for the organizers to track.

-lack of variety compared to the previous SL. (personally I don't see this as a problem)


--------------


Nothing wrong with the system used in SL3 other than the seeds were bent. Also the "home and away" rules would be grand.

-J

andy
05-25-2011, 11:24 AM
Pros and cons.

Pros:
-every team would get the chance to play against every other team.

-teams that have played well would get rewarded accordingly.

-teams that might have had a couple of bad games would still have an opportunity to rise during the ascension.

-teams could organize the dates and times for their games.

Cons:
-a lot more games for the organizers to track.

-lack of variety compared to the previous SL. (personally I don't see this as a problem)


--------------


Nothing wrong with the system used in SL3 other than the seeds were bent. Also the "home and away" rules would be grand.

-J


Major flaws i see are:
- As my personal experience goes allowing teams to schedule matches never works.
- too many games.

What i would do for this season:
- Different events like SL3
- Seeding as previous week (for first week SL3 seeding)
- Playoffs for best 8 teams.

What the difference would be:
- Seedings are determined on a week to week base
- Points in each event will be stated from week 1
- Teams will know how many weeks are still to be played and how many points are still to be assigned

rojo
05-25-2011, 07:03 PM
I hope you guys decide to revert to APL/Sl2 style. I like how WABL is incorporating points and groups, but that doesn't mean all leagues have to be the same.

My big complaints from SL3 is that you had to set aside at least 1 hour but up to 3 hours for each tournament, you did not know who you were playing or what time you were playing until 2 days previously, and the tournament styles were ... how to say ... kitschy? Also, the random seedings was at times ridiculous.

Other complaints I recall from SL3 were the lag and the fact that currently there are a larger number of Euro-based teams than NA-based teams atm.

In the end, I think solidifying rules/schedule/servers earlier would decrease the amount of frustration people have later. People are likely going to bitch no matter what, but if you spell it out in the beginning then they don't have [as much] room to complain.

Of course all I say is likely moot.

elxir
05-25-2011, 07:48 PM
not having playoffs would just like...why bother

andy
05-26-2011, 10:21 AM
The real problem with having a full regular season is that it would take more than 12 rounds (at the moment there are 14 active ball clans). I would like to run something like SL3 with 4/5 weeks of events and 1/2 weeks of playoffs.

- We would state the rules and the format of each event before starting week 1.
- Times would be posted at least 4 days before the games.
- Map pools will have a veto system.

trendy11one
05-26-2011, 10:55 AM
Then this is my suggestion.
Split 12 teams to 4 groups. This can be done from by random or through 1 week bo3 tourney.
Next week Everyone play with everyone in separate groups. (2 matches each team)
3rd week - same in other servers. (2 matches each team)
After that Week play tie breakers and break for rest of teams.
Then 4 teams goes to premier group, 4 teams to another(1st division) and rest to another(2nd division)
2 weeks play each other 2 times (3 matches each team). This should be high quality matches since each group contain closest opponents.
Result will show up, who is winner of SL.
After that can be Super CUp of winners of each group. This will be double elim of 4 teams.2 teams from 1st gruop, 1 team from 2nd and 3d.

rojo
05-26-2011, 11:03 AM
The real problem with having a full regular season is that it would take more than 12 rounds (at the moment there are 14 active ball clans). I would like to run something like SL3 with 4/5 weeks of events and 1/2 weeks of playoffs.

- We would state the rules and the format of each event before starting week 1.
- Times would be posted at least 4 days before the games.
- Map pools will have a veto system.

So you want this to be done in less than 8 weeks.

Use the WABL outcome as seedings for 2 groups. Have both groups play each other with 1 or 2 random crossover game. 7 teams/group, 2 games/week, ... would last 4 weeks total. Use that outcome to seed a tournament, lasts 1-2 weeks.

If you want to do the tournaments, well, nobody can stop you, but I hope you fix some of the complaints from the previous SL.

Small issue: 4 days in advance is still not enough time for some people and the fact that this it is not the summer its going to be harder. We currently have multiple weeks notice in WABL, why cannot we have the same for SL?

oh ya, and this:
The Bo1's were idiotic. Again, setting aside 3hours for the possiblity of playing 10 minutes... doesn't make sense.

andy
05-26-2011, 11:23 AM
I just wanna make sure this is over before people leave for holidays.

Spartan
05-27-2011, 01:33 AM
I would like to run something like SL3 with 4/5 weeks of events and 1/2 weeks of playoffs.

Then I'd say something along the lines of the World Cup format would work

elxir
05-27-2011, 02:36 AM
the bo1's were awesome, imo

especially the timed one

rojo
05-27-2011, 03:11 AM
the bo1's were awesome, imo

especially the timed one

And IMO they weren't fun, but we're all entitled to our opinions.

andy
05-27-2011, 11:12 AM
Then I'd say something along the lines of the World Cup format would work

So no double elimination in playoffs?
I really think this game needs double elim.

Spartan
05-27-2011, 05:52 PM
So no double elimination in playoffs?
I really think this game needs double elim.

Depends on what the playoffs are bo. If they're bo7 then double elim is definitely not necessary. But if you want the first rounds of the playoffs to be bo3/5, then you could set up a double elim for the playoffs, and still maintain the group format so that the regular season isn't so long

rojo
05-27-2011, 08:54 PM
Depends on what the playoffs are bo. If they're bo7 then double elim is definitely not necessary. But if you want the first rounds of the playoffs to be bo3/5, then you could set up a double elim for the playoffs, and still maintain the group format so that the regular season isn't so long

Has there ever been a league that's gone to double Bo7 elim?

elxir
05-27-2011, 11:28 PM
Has there ever been a league that's gone to double Bo7 elim?

i think the fLb/IL finals are IL has to win two bo7s

but i could be wrong per usual

leggomyeggo
05-28-2011, 03:38 AM
No, you're right. If IL wins the first round of bo7, we also have to win the second round of bo7 to actually win the playoffs. Although, if fLb wins the first bo7, that's it.

trendy11one
05-28-2011, 04:15 AM
No, you're right. If IL wins the first round of bo7, we also have to win the second round of bo7 to actually win the playoffs. Although, if fLb wins the first bo7, that's it.

APL3, 4, 5 and FFL also have Bo7 finals

leggomyeggo
05-28-2011, 05:36 AM
i think the fLb/IL finals are IL has to win two bo7s

but i could be wrong per usual

Nice use of the quote feature, trendy.

Dougie
05-28-2011, 11:08 AM
Personally, I'm not a fan of double eliminators, mainly because the final gives a massive psychological boost to the team that only needs to win 1 match from 2. It also seems a bit too tough on teams to have to go through two best of 7 matches. If every game takes an average of 20 minutes, You could be playing a final that lasts 4-5 hours!

Ribilla
05-28-2011, 11:31 AM
Personally, I'm not a fan of double eliminators, mainly because the final gives a massive psychological boost to the team that only needs to win 1 match from 2. It also seems a bit too tough on teams to have to go through two best of 7 matches. If every game takes an average of 20 minutes, You could be playing a final that lasts 4-5 hours!

So split the final in two. Chances are the better team will win the first one anyway, and if they don't then it is a huge case for double elim, because the eventual winners (i.e. the best team) would never have got to the finals were it not for the losers bracket.

IMO the benefits of double elim far outweigh the disadvantages. It also gives teams over twice the amount of games, whilst only taking a couple more rounds at the end.

trendy11one
05-28-2011, 12:05 PM
There are some teams who play really less effective than others.
For example at APL 5 there was DS, BB, KLF who lost all their matches to rest of teams. This why i suggest to split teams on groups, where teams can provide close games. If some team becomes significantly better, it wouldnt be big problem to get 1st place in their group.
We may use double elim bo3 tourney or results of last SL(new entrants will play little tourney) to sort.

Ribilla
05-28-2011, 12:25 PM
There are some teams who play really less effective than others.
For example at APL 5 there was DS, BB, KLF who lost all their matches to rest of teams. This why i suggest to split teams on groups, where teams can provide close games. If some team becomes significantly better, it wouldnt be big problem to get 1st place in their group.
We may use double elim bo3 tourney or results of last SL(new entrants will play little tourney) to sort.

Depending on how you run the tourny, one of these problems will occur.

The best of the low group will still be worse than the worst of the best group, so if the winner of the low group goes through to the playoffs, this isn't fair on the worst of the high group.

Or

The low group can never get into the playoffs, even if they win, making playing in the tourny pointless.

sunshineduck
05-28-2011, 12:44 PM
well, there's certainly a point of playing in the league even if you don't have a chance of making the playoffs.

trendy11one
05-28-2011, 01:16 PM
Depending on how you run the tourny, one of these problems will occur.

The best of the low group will still be worse than the worst of the best group, so if the winner of the low group goes through to the playoffs, this isn't fair on the worst of the high group.

Not really, since groups will be set according to last season/short tourney. Also a lot of teams changed since last season. There is no fun to play against team, who you can win 5v6. In same time games like arr vs tvo vs ball always pleasure to spec and play. Thats why those teams should play against each other more recently.

Or

The low group can never get into the playoffs, even if they win, making playing in the tourny pointless.
Also, to provide both types of tourney, we can play groups 2 times, as i suggested before. This will take 2-3 weeks for each part, like Andy said 4-5 weeks for round robin and 1-2 weeks for playoffs.
Random groups and after that groups with best teams.

rojo
05-28-2011, 02:08 PM
i think the fLb/IL finals are IL has to win two bo7s

but i could be wrong per usual

I meant has there ever been a final that HAS gone to the 2nd bo7?

andy
05-28-2011, 04:03 PM
I meant has there ever been a final that HAS gone to the 2nd bo7?

ACE vs fLb

fLb won first bo7 4-3 then ACE won 2nd bo7 4-0

andy
05-28-2011, 04:09 PM
I wanna see how many teams sign up and depending on the number then these could be the formats:

0-8 teams: regular season and playoffs

16 teams: 4 groups of 4 top 2 from each group go to playoffs

12 teams: 3 groups of 4 top 2 from each group go to playoffs

8< teams <12 : Events like SL3 but decided at the start of the league discussed with everyone.

trendy11one
05-28-2011, 04:45 PM
I wanna see how many teams sign up and depending on the number then these could be the formats:

0-8 teams: regular season and playoffs

16 teams: 4 groups of 4 top 2 from each group go to playoffs

12 teams: 3 groups of 4 top 2 from each group go to playoffs

8< teams <12 : Events like SL3 but decided at the start of the league discussed with everyone.
Fixed for you

If someone wouldn't make new team rapidly, we can get max of 15 teams, since TT not active anymore(their capt ufo is in A*)
And im not sure about F-15, F-16 and FT

andy
05-28-2011, 04:47 PM
Ya wasnt thinking lol :D
Im just asking team captains and it looks like we will have around 12 teams.

Wyrd
05-29-2011, 03:34 PM
I have no strong particular preference for a format, but I do want to repost rojo's post, which I do strongly agree with.

My big complaints from SL3 is that you had to set aside at least 1 hour but up to 3 hours for each tournament, you did not know who you were playing or what time you were playing until 2 days previously, and the tournament styles were ... how to say ... kitschy? Also, the random seedings was at times ridiculous.

Other complaints I recall from SL3 were the lag and the fact that currently there are a larger number of Euro-based teams than NA-based teams atm.

In the end, I think solidifying rules/schedule/servers earlier would decrease the amount of frustration people have later. People are likely going to bitch no matter what, but if you spell it out in the beginning then they don't have [as much] room to complain.

If those issues get addressed, with a decent format, SL4 should be awesome.

Oh, I do have a preference. I'd really like it if at the least you get to play each team once, preferably maybe twice before teams are possibly eliminated.

sunshineduck
05-29-2011, 03:47 PM
i believe i've mentioned multiple times that the main issue with using euro-based servers more was that the tournament organizers wanted a stable euro server with a server file they could edit for uniformity with the US servers used in the tourney. specifically, the admins list and the map pool were of utmost importance. since the more commonly used euro servers (AIR and arr private i think) have wildly different lists for both. in addition, another issue was the time slots that were favored towards euros as amends for not having euro servers.

as far as minor annoyances go (assuming we can reach an agreement on euro servers), switching between servers mid-match would also be a hassle. i suppose we could adopt the home/away rules that people arbitrarily spam at me every time i mention the word "server", but i'm not sure i personally like the randomness of selection in which a team potentially might never pick their server. if we do seeded tourneys every week, i guess we could have the higher seeded team (lower numerically, obv) be the home team? i kind of like the idea of teams earning the right to play where they want.

as far as advance warning on games, i feel like 4 days is more than adequate warning, while 2 is undoubtedly too little. i'm not sure why it would take so long between weeks to come up with schedules unless there are games that have been pushed back, though.

/ramble

andy
05-31-2011, 09:27 AM
SSD addressed all the server problems, but i hope someone can get us a server with the right configuration before SL starts. The other issue with the EU servers is that to run a league you need 4 servers and currently we just have 2.


If we go by the SL3 format:
- We would have 4/5 separated events (single day tournaments) which will assign points.
- Seedings would be based on the previous week and on WABL for the first week.
- If we get enough EU servers 2 of those 4/5 events will be ran on EU servers.

If we go by the regular season and playoffs:
- I would like to play 2/3 games per team per week (bo3), so the season is over in 4 weeks.
- I would like a double elimination bracket so that every team gets the chance to get far in the tournament.
- Starting game in APL server and from there on loser picks server could work.