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VAN1SH1NG 08-24-2015 08:55 PM

August 25 Map Update
Map update will not be live until tomorrow, August 25.

ball_swarm, tbd_swarm, and ball_carpia have new layouts. ball_lumber by Brutal and both the ball and tbd versions of arrow by Jonus have been added.

ball_carpia is more experimental since some people did think the old layout was decent and the new layout is drastically different. At the same time a large portion of ladder does not like the original layout so I'm hoping the new layout will be better received by all. If not then I'll try to bring it back a bit closer to the original.

Lumber and Arrow have had some testing on other servers and sounds like most have enjoyed them. However, the ladder community has different standards / skill level and changes may need to be made. I will let them be tested as-is, but any map will be pulled from random quickly if there are obvious problems.





VAN1SH1NG 08-24-2015 08:55 PM



VAN1SH1NG 08-26-2015 06:14 PM

Small updates to carpia..
  • More space opened up at bottom middle and slightly more at top middle.
  • Object below spawns removed and angles made more favorable for clearing. It seemed a bit difficult to clear up. The trade off is now there is less protection when attacking through middle route. Additional changes may be required if this does not work well.
  • Powerups spawn more slowly (15s from 10s) except for top middle which is still 10s

Forgot to add _pb on map names when adding lumber and arrow to database so they weren't in random yesterday. They are now though.

Slender 08-26-2015 06:45 PM

Is tbd_swarm on rotation right now? I remember you used to say it was pretty hard to convert it to tbd a few months ago, really want to try it out.

VAN1SH1NG 08-26-2015 07:53 PM

Yes it is in rotation. But being of lowest probability it literally can be months before it might come up in random given how little tbd is played.

The only difficult part with swarm is a stand for the base to sit on with the hexes being relatively large. It is a bit better now, but I'm sure it still will be hard to get a full hit going under and hitting the back.

CmdrNoval 08-26-2015 08:45 PM

If Vanish is willing to provide a download link for this modified version of tbd_swarm, I will upload it to the Tadow! Server for those who want some practice time on it.

VAN1SH1NG 08-28-2015 05:31 AM

I tend not to post download links on the forum as my maps are subject to receive frequent changes when they are new. However the current version of any map on ladder can always be downloaded from my web server at

Thanks for offering to put it on Tadow!. If you wish to use any of my maps on your servers you are welcome to, but I don't think there is much benefit as far as testing. If people wanted to test new maps they can easily test them on ladder servers. Unfortunately the majority of ladder players have no interest in having new maps.

Fartface 08-28-2015 05:09 PM

You made carpia into yet another map with a totally unviable low route. Why did you add those massive ugly triangles on the floor? We know from experience that obstacles like that lead to endless back and forth in the bottom lane and long, frustrating games. Cave and grotto give us long enough games as it is. This applies to cryptic too.

Tried and true: make any obstacles on the floor short. You did a good job on swarm of finally making the floor more manageable. Asteroids, plane park, funnelpark, reef, hardcourt greycomb are all examples of maps with floors that work reasonably well (see how I threw in your own maps to show I'm not just being contrary?). Even maps with entirely flat floors, or very predictable floor patterns can work (see: maze, dark war, labyrinth).

Please, please, please if you're gonna add a whole slew of maps without asking anyone else's opinion at least go with tried and true obstacle types so we aren't stuck playing cave-length games on maps we don't even want.

Remember what you did to the low boxes on warehouse? Exact same thing should happen here.

VAN1SH1NG 08-28-2015 06:16 PM

Clearly I based this off the tried and true maps Cave and Grotto. Why would I not replicate design patterns of some of the most popular ball maps (other than of course the jagged edges on Cave)? Its not like games are especially long on those maps either.

As with nearly every ball map in Altitude, the low route is easily the most viable. One benefit of large barriers on the low route is that it forces other routes to be used more. It is not a problem on Cave or Grotto and is not here either. Majority so far have liked the changes. Those who do not like it (and mostly did not like the original version either) mostly seem to want more open space in this version. That is why a little more space was opened up on the more recent version that has not been played yet.

Fartface 08-28-2015 07:30 PM

Cave and grotto are the only maps where stuff like that on the bottom is accepted and that's because 1) they are old and 2) the goals are low enough that you can get the ball out to them on a quick break with a shield, etc. Neither are the case for your new maps. I would bet games are especially long on cave and grotto and would appreciate you backing up your claim of otherwise with stats on game length if you track it.

Large barriers in the low route do not force other routes to be used more -- have you played on cave or grotto? Games are 80% back in forth in the bottom of the map. Goals are scored when one team messes up or the other team gets powerups.

"Majority so far have liked the changes" -- I'm sick of hearing you invoke the silent "majority" to back up your unilateral decisions. Who the hell are you talking about? Who are the people who like the changes, why don't you ever name them, and why don't they say it themselves? Because all I ever see in game or on the forums are people complaining about how you make changes (usually bad) without asking anyone, and the usual several people (yoji, slender, toma) who back you up no matter what because "van gave us ladder be grateful." I also see people trying to stop the game about 50% of the time one of your maps comes up, only to have a 6yes0no vote fail claiming it was only "40% yes vote."


Originally Posted by leggomyeggo (Post 194595)
never felt like you've cared about how the community feels towards your decisions.

VAN1SH1NG 08-28-2015 08:38 PM

Yes I waste several hours monitoring ladder most weekdays and gathering feedback only to make everything up. You got me.

Fartface 08-28-2015 09:33 PM

From the lack of substance / names in your post it looks like I DID get you

If you could name even 3 people who like the triangles on the floor I would reconsider my position here, as most logical people do when faced with actual evidence

VAN1SH1NG 08-28-2015 09:41 PM

I don't believe anyone has other than you has specifically commented on the triangles on the floor. Several people commented on the new layout in general, often mentioning the map flows well.

In either case its not like I have heard enough feedback to come to any conclusions. We are talking about like 8 likes, 4 dislikes (and generally did not like the original either). Most people don't comment either way on maps. And all but one of those who did not like the map played in a crappy 6-1 game and blamed the map while those who enjoyed the map played balanced games on it.

Have you even played it? I don't think you have even been there watching the games played on the new version.

Mr Nice 08-28-2015 09:59 PM

Is it me or is ball swarm and ball carpia pretty similiar.

Fartface 08-28-2015 11:14 PM

As I had told you before I did like the original carpia so I'm not just being difficult. Big clunky obstacles like that are just a lazy way of adding something to the bottom and make for more boring gameplay than a more sophisticated design. I would add that you seem to have finally made swarm a lot more enjoyable (though I've only played it a few times), and you did so by making the floor much less cluttered. I am encouraging you to jump carpia ahead to the equivalent of the latest swarm phase rather than start it at the old one which very few people liked.

CmdrNoval 08-29-2015 12:38 AM


Originally Posted by Slender (Post 194937)
Is tbd_swarm on rotation right now? I remember you used to say it was pretty hard to convert it to tbd a few months ago, really want to try it out.


Originally Posted by CmdrNoval (Post 194939)
If Vanish is willing to provide a download link for this modified version of tbd_swarm, I will upload it to the Tadow! Server for those who want some practice time on it.

I uploaded and set this map up on the Tadow! server for those who want to try it out...

Mapname: tbd_ladderswarm


Thanks to Vanish

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