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  #1  
Old 09-05-2011, 03:41 PM
Ribilla Ribilla is offline
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Default Thermo vs Pure mouse

A few months ago, control systems were patched so that they represent each other more closely, I think this was mostly a good thing; before this mouse was OP against thermo.

However, whilst I feel that mouse + KB has been brought into line with KB, pure mouse faces some problems against thermo. It's quite difficult to explain, and so if this doesn't work I'll try and get some images drawn on paint or the like.

Basically I am going to use a compass system, imagine a plane is in a small tunnel and flying West to East. I push my cursor north to turn up, south to turn down (anticlockwise), west to slow down, east to speed up. For ease's sake lets imagine I always get spun 45 degrees, these arguments apply for greater/lesser spins too.

When I see an incoming thermo missile, there are 2 ways I can counter it's effect: I can slow down and try to ride it out, or I can try and predict the turn and then compensate. I will go through each scenario separately.

The most common advice is to slow down, in order to do this I start move my cursor west, now imagine a I am spun so I am facing down. I am currently moving my cursor west and I am facing SE, so I actually end up turning INTO the wall if I try to slow down. The same argument applies if I am spun to be facing NE.

Okay, so slowing down makes you more likely to crash, what if I try and guess what direction I will be turned (although this is almost impossible with lag delays, etc). In this example, assume I always get turned downwards

If I guess correctly:

I move my mouse north, as I get spun I do start to correct my course (huzzah), however, I also stall since I am moving my cursor through my plane in the opposite direction to my course and this takes off all my throttle. If I am a randa and I try and reverse, I crash into the bottom of the tunnel, if I am any other plane I stall and die.

If I guess incorrectly, I move my cursor down. This means I afterburn/warp into the wall.

If I speed my plane up just before the thermo, I do turn back on course, but before this happens, I afterburn/warp into the wall

I don't know what ought to be done about this, just that something needs to be done. Whether it takes the form of a control modification or a slight debuff on thermo for mouse users, I don't know. I don't want things to go back to the way they were, that's unfair.

If you are going to whinge about 'mouse hax' make a new thread, constructive input welcomed.
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  #2  
Old 09-06-2011, 02:52 PM
Carlos98 Carlos98 is offline
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This is actually a legitimate problem. As a pure mouse user I can say this affects all planes as well, just not as badly since the rest can't warp.

Unfortunately the only solutions I can think of:

1)Make mouse directions directly equivalent to keyboard directions. So mousing to the right would be turn right(no matter the direction of your plane), mouse left: turn left, mouse up: throttle up, and mouse down: throttle down. But that solution sucks and would completely kill the ability to aim with a mouse.

2)Limit where you can aim your mouse based on turning radius. I don't know if this would solve the problem, but in my mind it should help. Although this has the ability to suck hard too.

TL;DR tough problem, I have no solutions
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  #3  
Old 09-06-2011, 03:32 PM
GGQ GGQ is offline
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When someone takes the time to make a large post like this about a real issue in the game, don't respond with pointless one-line trolling/flame-bait. You're just wasting the devs' time by making them read useless posts.

As the OP says, "constructive input welcomed."
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  #4  
Old 09-06-2011, 05:55 PM
Solqom Solqom is offline
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I totally agree with Rib, it is virtually impossible to counter Thermo when using Mouse (Turn and Throttle).
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  #5  
Old 09-06-2011, 06:50 PM
Tekn0 Tekn0 is offline
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If this is to be fixed, give keyboard users the aiming line, and even with keyboard there are many times you can crash even after slowing down a lot, in general these are just intrinsic differences in the input methods.

Last edited by Tekn0; 09-06-2011 at 06:53 PM.
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  #6  
Old 09-06-2011, 06:57 PM
Ribilla Ribilla is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tekn0 View Post
If this is to be fixed, give keyboard users the aiming line, and even with keyboard there are many times you can crash even after slowing down a lot, in general these are just intrinsic differences in the input methods.
The line is a separate issue. In general it is considered that mouse is better for aim, and KB is superior for control. I don't mind KB players being able to counter thermo more easily, I just want the mouse user to be able to do something.
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  #7  
Old 09-07-2011, 06:41 PM
SPeciaL SPeciaL is offline
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what i've been doing is playing reflex games. now im at amazing 190 ms! so i'm fast enough to adjust ^^. no fix needed for me here but i agree it's OP against pure mouse.

Last edited by SPeciaL; 09-07-2011 at 06:54 PM.
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  #8  
Old 09-07-2011, 06:58 PM
trendy11one trendy11one is offline
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Well, im using hybrid method, mouse + KB. And still, after patch i feel like my plane act like if i were using pure mouse. Even if i drop speed nearly to stall, i still can be thermoed to rock and crash on full speed. As i imagine this, thermo for mouse users "move" cursor far from plane, making him afterburn. Well, if i get this right, its still affect mouse users, who use KB for throttle
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  #9  
Old 09-07-2011, 07:02 PM
Ribilla Ribilla is offline
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The cursor doesn't get moved further from the plane, but since you have no idea where it's being moved to you can't correct as easily as the push of a button. You first have to locate the cursor then think which direction to move in, preferably in the arc of a circle.

I think you're right that it effects mouse + KB more than pure KB because you still have this time lapse where you have to judge things rather than tapping a button. However, the effect on pure mouse is so much greater because thermo is basically effecting your throttle as well as your direction. I haven't played KB + mouse, but from what I have seen from other players I don't think it's in dire need of a fix.
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  #10  
Old 09-07-2011, 09:37 PM
Inofaith Inofaith is offline
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Just go keyboard?

edit: oh ok, sorry! now i feel bad for posting here.
Didn't have time to read the whole thread. Just thought that this bug wasn't gonna be fixed anytime soon, so the mouse kb thing might work out.

Last edited by Inofaith; 09-07-2011 at 09:54 PM.
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  #11  
Old 09-07-2011, 09:46 PM
Aki1024 Aki1024 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inofaith View Post
Just go keyboard?
The below is relevant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GGQ View Post
When someone takes the time to make a large post like this about a real issue in the game, don't respond with pointless one-line trolling/flame-bait. You're just wasting the devs' time by making them read useless posts.

As the OP says, "constructive input welcomed."
I would like an option, as either a mouse or keyboard user, to gain a highlight bar along my plane's current line of fire. This is useful for planes to tell which direction they have been pushed by thermal while evening the advantage mouse has for aiming over kb.
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  #12  
Old 09-07-2011, 09:58 PM
Ribilla Ribilla is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aki1024 View Post
I would like an option, as either a mouse or keyboard user, to gain a highlight bar along my plane's current line of fire. This is useful for planes to tell which direction they have been pushed by thermal while evening the advantage mouse has for aiming over kb.
I am fine with KB players getting the bar, however there has already been a huge discussion on this, with the decision reached that it would lower the skill ceiling and negatively impact the game. The reason pure mouse has the bar is a) it would be inoperable without one and b) it is generally considered a clumsier control scheme for plane movement. If you want to start a new discussion on whether KB should have the bar, go ahead, but I want this thread to primarily be about the problem in the OP.

I wonder if Karlam would give us their thoughts.
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  #13  
Old 09-07-2011, 10:41 PM
Kennedy Kennedy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ribilla View Post
I haven't played KB + mouse, but from what I have seen from other players I don't think it's in dire need of a fix.
I wouldn't say dire, but something definitely needs to be tweaked. I have more problem with thermo than any other plane in the game.
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  #14  
Old 09-07-2011, 10:44 PM
Ribilla Ribilla is offline
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Bot just got a mega 6 with thermo on the AIR server >.<
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  #15  
Old 09-07-2011, 10:44 PM
Ingbo Ingbo is offline
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note to self: play thermo vs rib
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  #16  
Old 09-08-2011, 01:32 PM
lamster lamster is offline
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I agree that thermo is disproportionately strong against pure-mouse-control for the reasons you've described. The cursor offset for thermo against pure-mouse-control will be reduced in the next patch -- we'll probably try a 25% reduction (relative to keyboard+mouse mode which won't change) and see where to go from there.
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  #17  
Old 09-08-2011, 01:34 PM
Ribilla Ribilla is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lamster View Post
I agree that thermo is disproportionately strong against pure-mouse-control for the reasons you've described. The cursor offset for thermo against pure-mouse-control will be reduced in the next patch -- we'll probably try a 25% reduction (relative to keyboard+mouse mode which won't change) and see where to go from there.
Thanks so much. I'm willing to help playtest if you want to check balance.
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  #18  
Old 09-08-2011, 06:31 PM
trendy11one trendy11one is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lamster View Post
I agree that thermo is disproportionately strong against pure-mouse-control for the reasons you've described. The cursor offset for thermo against pure-mouse-control will be reduced in the next patch -- we'll probably try a 25% reduction (relative to keyboard+mouse mode which won't change) and see where to go from there.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Seems like time to play pure mouse.
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  #19  
Old 09-09-2011, 04:33 PM
Solqom Solqom is offline
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Awesome news! What a result! Devs that listen AND then change stuff!!! <3<3<3
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  #20  
Old 09-10-2011, 02:11 AM
Fartface Fartface is offline
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Rib's getting BUFFED?

RIP, keyboarders.
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  #21  
Old 09-10-2011, 09:35 AM
Tekn0 Tekn0 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fartface View Post
Rib's getting BUFFED?

RIP, keyboarders.
Long written QQ wins.
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