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Old 12-25-2009, 04:20 AM
tgleaf tgleaf is offline
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Default [G] Guide to Ball

Written by tgleaf, arty, Harmonica, drunkguava, and OjM of the {ball} clan.

Overall Strategy
You might think that the most important aspect of winning a ball match is to secure your goal area and flood the opponent's goal area. But this is wrong. Ball matches are (or should be) offense-heavy. Don't hang back to wait for opponents or have the whole team defend.

The best strategy involves control of the mid-map area, either by physical presence of several planes, a sniper/miranda who can intimidate, or mines/acid to disable planes attempting to get to the goal area. If you concentrate on the goal area as a defense, you will get burnt by players who can out-manuever you or who pass around your explodet/last line of defense. The idea is to prevent your opponents from ever reaching your goal area with the ball.

Ball matches should be 6v6 or 7v7 if possible, otherwise 5v5. With five planes on each side, players tend to focus more on killing/dogfighting, whereas six or seven on each side allows for more ball tactics, as described in this guide. Tournaments can consist of best of five games, best of seven games, or any other length.

Offense
A good offense depends on at least one of the following:

1) A good defense. Yes, the old saying is true. This does not mean, though, that you flood the goal area with planes. Doing so reduces the number of planes available to score. If your defense can quickly turn the ball around, with a heavy (explodet or bomber) stopping the ball carrier and either dishing (passing) the ball out or carrying the ball to a safer spot and then passing, your offense can have the advantage of beating the now spawning opponents to their positions. This is where fast, accurate passing comes into play.

2) Loopies who can handle the ball. Your ball team must revolve around talented loopies. They should be quick to the ball on tip-offs, be reliable and accurate passers, be able to self-pass along corridors without losing the ball, and be patient to wait for openings in the opponent's defense.

While a plane is advancing on bottom of the map with the ball, at least one attacker should be going near the goal to get into a good position where he can be passed to for scoring. He should also try to kill the goalie. Too often there is nobody to pass to. If there is any kind of defense, it's hard to get to the goal from the bottom. If the goalie is dead, it's easier and faster to just shoot so there's no need to climb all the way to the goal.

You should consider whether you want to attack from the top or the bottom. Bottom is used more often, because it's usually easier to get to the goal, but it's harder to actually score because you need to climb up. Top is usually opposite of this, but this all depends on the map. Generally it's harder to advance from the same side the spawnpoints are on simply because spawners can reach you faster.

Do not be concerned about teammates stealing your goals by catching your shots (either accidentally or on purpose). You should keep the team attitude, and be glad the ball is in the goal. We have all missed some sure shots, when we were arrogant and near the goal without much distraction, but we decide to shoot and miss the goal. When you are closing in on the goal, it's okay for someone to be near the goal to make sure you don't mess up. Do not think he just wants the glory, do NOT avoid shooting to score just because someone else could get the ball and score. Do not get mad, this is a team game and "stealing" couldn't be avoided all the time anyway.

Defense
There should always be some kind of defense, someone who can get to the goal, before the enemy plane can go and shoot from a convenient position. You should learn some usual shooting places so you know where you should not let enemy get with the ball.

Defending choke-points: I am going to use mayhem as an example, since the "top" path is so popular. Most planes fly full speed across the top while shooting. It's not a bad approach, but a better idea is to get to the top, then slow down and shoot. You will hit the opponent planes more because you will be in their flight path longer. You will likely die instead of going by them, but it allows you to more often than not stop the ball carrier from getting to your goal.

Clearing the ball: When you have stolen the ball from the opponents in your goal area, the best thing to do is to immediately fly sharply downward, then get the ball away from your half as quickly as possible. In a good clear, the ball should *never* be in front of your goal, not even for a second and not even if the team is there. Only once midfield is reached should a defender begin to consider offensive movement towards the opponent’s goal. The “sharply downward” part ensures that the ball’s in a difficult position for offense, in case the clear gets halted, and the emphasis on speed over safety increases the likelihood of disrupting the opponent’s teamwork (as some planes chase the ball, others move to defense, and others continue on their original path). Passing is very dangerous, even if you think no one is around. Teams that have just tried to score a goal often flood the goal area with planes in the hopes of grabbing a rebound. If you are not holding the ball, you should be actively looking for incoming opponents to shoot down. Once you get to mid-map, consider passing/punting (passing into an open area) to advance the ball.

If the ball is loose and a teammate is already heading for it, you do not need to follow it. Turn around and watch for incoming opponent planes. Most players will flood the goal area after a missed shot attempt. You should be defending the goal area and also giving your teammate going after the ball time to retrieve it and clear/pass it. If someone else is already guarding the goal area, make yourself useful by getting open for a pass. This can enable a quick transition to offense. Also, if there is just one enemy plane going to your goal, you might not need everyone from offense to go check it out. Defense is something you should be able to trust and defenders should know their role.

How to kill an explodet: Use acid. Approach from a safe distance and hit with acid. Stay above/below or behind the explodet and pound it with bullets. Use your speed and maneuverability to avoid damage and to keep at it until you kill it. Think of your flight path as a flower petal (daisy). Yep, just fly in shooting, turn slightly and fly back out, fly in from a different angle, repeat.

Another approach: the planes of choice for taking out a skilled Explodet are Bomber (with flak cannon) and Biplane (any config). Each of those has both a decent long-range attack and a very powerful short-range attack, allowing for two distinct fighting styles — an entirely long-range snipe, for explodets which aren’t distracted; and a short-range hit-and-run for those which are. Nearly any plane will work against a not-so-skilled explodet (they tend to lay mines, leaving them with too little energy to fight or escape when it matters), but I still wouldn’t try to take one out with a Loopy — Loopies are better as distractions, flying through to grab the explodet’s attention so that a stronger plane can quickly take it out. (Similarly, Explodets work as great distractions if you need to draw some planes away from the goal.)

How to kill a (time-anchor) miranda: Mirandas count on the element of surprise. Most planes chase the miranda which is the easiest for the miranda because it can anchor away or behind the chasing planes. Instead, an effective strategy is to fire in one direction a single stream of bullets that will eventually hit the miranda as it anchors back and forth. It takes faith, but if you aim at where the miranda was/will be, you will take it down. If the miranda is also trying to kill you, a good response is to fly in circles while firing. Though this strategy results in a 50% kill chance against another loopy, it is closer to 75% against an unskilled miranda.

DF Loopy Specific Tip: EMP EVERYTHING. Before you kill anyone or anything, EMP. This is especially important in ball mode because it makes the hit plane less maneuverable. If you hit the plane holding the ball, he will have a much harder time shooting and passing. If you shoot someone without the ball, they will have a harder time killing others, getting in position for a pass, and getting the ball when it is loose.

Last edited by tgleaf; 12-25-2009 at 03:19 PM.
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Old 12-25-2009, 04:20 AM
tgleaf tgleaf is offline
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Movement
Without the ball: most of the time, you will be without the ball. On offense, stay out of high-traffic zones. This may require taking paths through the map that most players don't use, or it may just mean flying at the top if the action is currently at the bottom (or visa versa). On defense, find the choke points and booby trap them (e.g. acid, mines) or wait for opponents to enter and kill them. But don't camp. Ball is a game of constant movement. If there is no action at that particular choke point, move elsewhere. It is best to try and ambush your opponents, either by coming from the top or bottom, or by getting behind them. And effective move is to swoop down behind the opposing team from above just as they are transition from defense to offense (e.g. after a steal or failed scoring attempt by your team).

With the ball: If you have the ball, you should be moving toward the opponent's goal. Do not fly in circles (ever), and do not fly toward your goal (except if you are very skilled and have a plan in mind for where to go). Try to avoid opponent planes, but also remember that you can fire while holding the ball. Most players get so engrossed in trying to make it to the goal or survive that they ignore a smoking plane trying to shoot at them. To make it to the opponent's goal, it is useful to weave in and out of obstacles on the map, rather than just flying in a straight path. The more you can surprise opponent planes, the more chance you have of making it. On a map like darkwar, fly in a wave pattern, bobbing over and under the thin walls. On a map like core, you can actually fly in a zig zag pattern vertically around the bottom sections of mid-map. Opponent planes will be thrusting down to get you and won't have energy to shoot you as you pass them heading up. Then, when you turn and head down again, they will be thrusting up to get you and won't have energy to shoot you. Many people think that the best strategy in ball is to just afterburn towards the goal with the ball. If you're playing a good team this will get you killed. Use obstacles for protection. Stay close to obstacles to decrease the angle that the other team can attack you. Slowing down is not always bad either. You can cause loopy opponents to overrun you, negating their weapons. Many times have I slowed down, allowed a pursuer to pass me while I shot off an EMP, and then zoomed to the goal.

Kissing the floor: Most maps have a floor that players try to avoid. On hard wall servers, this makes sense, but on bouncy servers, players seem to avoid the floor anyway. You can use this to your advantage by actually flying along the floor (touching it). Most opponent planes will fly just above you, missing you with their shots. On snow, this is the main way to survive, but it also helps on mahyem, mayhem 2, etc. On maps like woods and lostcity, this also works with regard to the ceiling. Fly as high as possible, touching the ceiling.

Passing
Passing is the heart of ball. Generally speaking you want to push the ball forward as fast as possible, and passing to the plane ahead of you is usually the best way to do it. Between lag and user error there is a lot of bad passing out there, but we are only human.


A) Different type of passes. No there are not really different types of passes, but there are different types of situational passing that need a name:

(1) Short pass: plane is right in front of you no further than one plane length apart. The safest pass to make but not the best for maximum team speed.

(2) Medium pass: longer than the short pass but close enough that the plane in front does not have to slow down. This pass has a slight risk of being stolen but the team speed advantage makes it the best option for moving the ball.

(3) Long pass: plane in front of you has to actually maneuver to get the ball by either slowing down, or changing their flight path. This is not the optimal option but sometimes it is the only option you have. Better to pass long and away from other team (towards opponent’s goal) than try the direct medium pass and have it stolen.

(4) Redirect pass: you are flying east to west and you pass ball off to teammate who is going west to east. This pass has the advantage of slightly throwing off pursuit of ball carrier because the change in direction is a little confusing. Try not to hand off to a plane that is visibly smoking if they are heading back towards your goal for obvious reasons. Do use this pass if you are smoking to get ball to a healthier plan.


(5) Reverse pass: on some stages you can pass ball off of the wall (this includes the wall that people play) to a trailing teammate. This only works with skilled players both passers and receiver. I only advise this to the best out there due to the problem that if your pass is bad, the ball is heading in the other direction. However if you are heading in the wrong direction to start with it could be a viable option yet still ill advised.


(6) Ricochet pass: similar to the reverse pass because it requires you to pass of a wall. This pass is usually performed while you are flying north or south but can be done east to west. Sometimes you do not have a clear passing lane and the long pass is not an option so what do you do. Pass off the wall around the defenders into your teammates lap. This pass is mostly used in goal areas because they usually have a large flat wall to pass off which is helpful in accuracy. Best used when you are about to die and you do not want to pass to the opponents. It is helpful when trying to clear but should only be used as a last option.


(7) Bounce pass: useful when enemy planes are heading towards you in small space (e.g. a tunnel or the bottom of snow, core, etc.). Instead of passing straight to the enemy planes or keeping the ball and dying, angle the front of your plane down and pass the ball against the floor and around the enemy planes. Takes practice, but can be effective for clearing the ball.

(8) Dead pass: you are smoking, there is no safe pass forward, and bullets are coming your way but you have a teammate coming from behind you. What should you do? Die with a purpose. Slow down and lift/dip your nose so your plane takes most of the incoming bullets. When you die if you slowed down enough your teammate has a better chance of grabbing the slower ball and surviving past the incoming enemies because you took the damage. No real down side to this because you did you best in a bad situation. You should try not to be in that situation. If your teammate gets ball safely through you are a hero.
4) Being a good receiver
a) It does not matter if you are a good passer if you have no one to pass to. Practice getting in position for a pass. Generally you burn until you are in position and slow down to become a target for the pass. Directly in front of plane is the easiest position to receive but it also make you an easier target to kill so I suggest you either be above or below the ball carrier and trust your teammate to get you the ball before they die. When you do not have the ball try to save a bit of turbo incase the pass is off target and you need to speed up to get it.

(9) The “T” pass is one where you are flying north/south and pass to a teammate flying east/west. It takes good timing, and you need to lead the receiving plane slightly to make it work. It’s a quick hand-off as the receiving plane should be flying at full speed (and not necessarily expecting your pass). This pass can be short, medium, or long.

(10) The fake pass is when you shoot a pass off to no one in particular. When the opponent inevitably stops shooting at you to go get the ball, you pursue and destroy, pick up the ball and then waltz in for the score.

(11) The give-and-go requires practice and timing, but it is probably the most dangerous move in the game when executed by a talented team. Have one plane flying slightly ahead and above/below the ball carrier. The ball carrier passes and then either flies ahead to an open spot or flies through a non-traffic path to get open for a later pass.

(12a) The self-pass is an integral part of a good baller's tactics. Loopies and biplanes can travel great distances quickly by passing ahead or bouncing the ball against the floor of a map and then catching and repeating. The reason for this is that all planes move slower with the ball than without. Simply flying straight ahead slows you down in relation to the other planes without the ball.

(12b) The miranda self-pass is the most devastating move in the entire ball genre. Mirandas are faster than any plane when warping forward and self-passing. No plane can catch them and they are very hard to shoot down. This move needs to be changed in order to make the game fair.

Last edited by tgleaf; 01-12-2010 at 11:22 PM.
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Old 12-25-2009, 04:21 AM
tgleaf tgleaf is offline
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Shooting
Don't shoot; Instead, if you have the option, ram your plane right into the goal. Shooting just gives the other team the opportunity to get the ball. SO, if you can help it (i.e. you have enough health, you aren't being shot at too much) don't shoot.

If you MUST shoot, realize that shooting takes patience -- unless you have an open goal two inches from your plane -- just like in basketball. You might have to juke one way or another, slow down to miss a missile, or pass to a teammate. But once you have an open shot, take it. Practice close range shots as well as long balls. The close range shots might seem automatic, but they are like free throws. It's easy to make when no one is around and sometimes hard to make in traffic or when being ambushed. Also practice trick shots.

Shooting. Practice, practice, practice!!! Play on empty servers and try to shoot from everywhere. Did you know that on the maze map you can make a shot from right under the spawning position divider? I find it quite easy to train on skirmish with easiest bots and shooting your own goal so you can just try again faster, because own goals are not counted.

Plane Roles
Loopy: ball carrier, defensive ace (acid, emp)
Biplane: ball carrier, sniper
Miranda: ball carrier, surprise element (offense or defense)
Bomber: choke control, mid-map dominator
Explodet: sweeper, tank (offense), high-traffic area miner

Formations (assumes 5v5; for larger teams, generally just add a loopy or biplane)
"Fab 5" (1-4): five loopies. Designate one loopy for defense and the rest for offense. Although loopies dominate scoring in ball matches, this is not the most powerful formation to use, as it leaves the goal vulnerable.

"Whale Ball" (1-3-1): One explodet on defense playing "sweeper" (mining and defending the goal area. One explodet on offense clearing out the enemy goal area or leading loopies with the ball toward the goal. Can be a deadly formation with the right explodet players.

"Goalies" (2-3): Two explodets guard the goal while three loopies try to score. Most new ball players/clans will use this strategy as it appears to offer the most defense. But having two slow "goalies" in the backcourt may not offer enough offensive support when the loopies try to score.

"Counter Strike" (1-1-3): A powerful formation that can defend, score, and surprise opponents. One explodet plays "sweeper" to defend the goal area. Three loopies are on offense. One biplane or miranda (or possibly bomber) monitors the mid-map area looking to sniper attack an incoming opponent. This member should have a high kill ratio and potentially be a good ball handler as well. They can turn the tide and enable a counter strike by taking out the ball carrier.

"{Ball} Setup, or XX2's Setup"(2-2-1): This powerful killing setup is used a lot by the {ball} clan, which has proved success multiple times, consists of 1 Explodet, 2 bombers, 2 loopies, and 1 miranda. The Explodet is used as the backbone for the Defense, but in addition the bombers also help out as the sweepers of team. The 2 loopies (emp/acid) compliment the miranda with emp and acid for the bombers. They are the most versatile in this setup from killing to ball handling. The miranda is the heart of the offense that has good ball running skills and can surprise the enemy. The bombers should patrol the mid-map area maintaing proper position to spam. The Explodet should be able to move from one area to another (depending on situation) from Defense to pushing, the explodet should always be somewhat near the ball. Loopies are pests, swarming emp'ing planes, passing, killing. They are best suited playing more offensively. Your Miranda should almost always be on the ball and ready to strike, and looking for open passes to teammates. Certainly an Offensive plane.

Power-Ups:
Wall: Walls can be used at choke-points, but can also be used to escape opponent planes that are chasing you when you have the ball (or without the ball). Lastly, a wall can be a last-ditch effort to save a goal by placing it just in front of the goal.

Shield: Use a shield to plow through a crowd, for example to get to the goal when it is crowded with opponents' planes. You can also attack a group of planes with a shield activated and have a better chance of killing them all. Shields can move mines, too, so they are somewhat useful for clearing mines from the opponent's goal area. The shield doesn’t just move mines out of your way: it makes them yours, such that they’ll attack the other team. This only really works for ‘dumb’ mines, though — remote mines can still hurt you, although that’s a bug that might/should get fixed soon.

Missile: With everyone chasing the ball, it may not be difficult to get a high kill ratio. A missile isn't necessary except against big targets (explodet). A properly timed missile along with bullets or acid that kills an explodet can clear the goal area prior to a strike or shot on goal.

Health: Get it when you can, obviously. If you see a smoking teammate and are healthy, avoid picking up this power-up.

Special manuevers
Stall Kill (not specific to ball matches): When you are in a one-on-one spin with another player, instead of just turning round and round hoping to kill them before they kill you, press the down arrow while you turn to go into a stall. Your turn radius while stalling will be much smaller, allowing you to shoot your opponent constantly instead of waiting to turn in a big circle to face them.

Sucker Punch: So much of the action in a ball match surrounds the ball that if you find yourself with the ball and face to face with an opponent who may overpower you (e.g. an explodet or a miranda), it can sometimes work to pass the ball to the opponent and then shoot them. The plane with the ball moves more slowly, so it's to your advantage to give up the ball. Second, the opponent may be surprised and panic with the ball, thereby giving you even more chance to kill them. This is a risky move, so be forewarned.

Distraction: when the ball is not near the opponent's goal, a loopy or biplane with good survival and kill skills invades the opponent's goal area and tries to kill one or more planes (explodet if possible) AND stay alive as long as possible. This activity near the goal usually draws other opponent planes to the goal area, giving your defense time to regroup or your mid-map planes time to regain control of that territory.

Quick U-Turn: When intercepting the ball or catching it at the bottom of a map/tunnel and facing your own goal (this happens often at mid-map at the bottom of Snow, for example), do a stall-turn instead of a regular turn or instead of just flying farther toward your own goal. Hold the down arrow while you turn to make a quick u-turn and then pass/move toward the opponent's goal.

One-touch pass/shot: not really a special move, but just something I discovered. If you are flying toward the ball or the ball is coming toward you and you need to pass or shoot quickly before getting killed, hold down the S key before you touch the ball. As soon as you touch it, it will be released.

Awards
Although these awards do not currently exist, they could be added in future updates of Altitude:

Hat Trick: scoring three (or more) goals in one game; extra xp
Long Shot: scoring from a long distance; extra xp
Coast to Coast: saving/retrieving the ball in your goal area and then scoring a goal without passing; not sure how the AI would determine this
Most Assists: an assist is given to a player who passes to the goal scorer
Most Saves: again, the AI probably couldn't keep track of this

Last edited by tgleaf; 03-22-2011 at 10:09 PM.
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Old 12-25-2009, 04:22 AM
tgleaf tgleaf is offline
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EDITS:

I replaced "whale" with "explodet" in the guide.

And you're right, a spinning loopy against a skilled miranda is no match, so I altered the wording.

Thanks everyone for the positive feedback! We're hoping that all ball players will benefit from this guide.

Last edited by tgleaf; 12-25-2009 at 03:21 PM.
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Old 12-25-2009, 05:29 AM
GGQ GGQ is offline
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Listen to these guys, they are good at ball.
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Old 12-25-2009, 05:36 AM
Deathblade Deathblade is offline
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One thing that you didn't mention about the explodet killing part.

EMP is absolutely devastating to whales, especially from behind, and especially on hard wall servers. EMP zaps your energy, so you can't lay the expensive mines from behind (usually the easiest way to kill a loopy), and you also can't turn for ****.

I'd also mention about rear tanking for the ball carrier on your team. Playing whale so much, I've found it somewhat beneficial when a plane such as a Loopy on your team has the ball, to follow them at a plane's length or two, basically shielding from nearly all enemy fire...while laying mines. Can easily buy the other player a few extra seconds to get in better shooting position.

Have also found it beneficial to learn the key routes that players will take while defending. For example, that little path right below the spawn on snow. That is an excellent place to mine or use walls in. It cuts off the fastest defense route, which also gives your team a few more seconds to score.

But I guess since it is in this post, it doesn't need to be in the guide eh?

Last edited by Deathblade; 12-25-2009 at 05:47 AM.
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Old 12-25-2009, 05:55 AM
Massi Massi is offline
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Really great guide! Makes me want to play some competitive ball now.
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Old 12-25-2009, 09:29 AM
wolf'j'max wolf'j'max is offline
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I totally agree black and after reading the explo part i got more respect for them.
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Old 12-25-2009, 09:36 AM
tyr tyr is offline
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Some very nice stuff here. Good job guys.

Except .. Stop with the "whales" T_T
It's explodets !
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Old 12-25-2009, 09:49 AM
CCN CCN is offline
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Shooting in circles as a loopy is 75% against a miranda?
Doubt it.

It its an anchoring miranda he anchors out and get a free shot, rinse repeat.
If its a trick he should move away from yoru circle and get distance, then come back for a shot.

maybe 75% against bad randas
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Old 12-25-2009, 09:55 AM
classicallad classicallad is offline
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Great job, a very detailed extensive guide for a HEAVILY UNDERRATED GAME MODE. You are like the messiah for ballers lol.
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Old 12-25-2009, 10:45 AM
OjM OjM is offline
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Hehe, tgleaf left out my screenshots. :P
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Old 12-25-2009, 03:12 PM
tgleaf tgleaf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OjM View Post
Hehe, tgleaf left out my screenshots. :P
They are coming later, OjM!
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Old 12-25-2009, 06:10 PM
evilarsenal evilarsenal is offline
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good guide will read again =D
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Old 12-25-2009, 08:18 PM
Sarah Palin Sarah Palin is offline
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IMHO all Ball strats (including this guide) can be boiled down to two things:

1. Never stall the ball. If you're carrying the ball: do not stall, do not fly steeply upwards, do not circle, do not fly in front of your own goal, always shoot the ball before dying (unless a teammate is on top of you). Fly as quickly and pass as often as you can.

2. Get behind the enemy. Make the enemies converge on a spot then put the ball in their tail zone. Ways to do this include feinting to go on one side of a barrier then taking the other route, or making a long pass to a teammate who took the wrap tunnel. With the enemies pointing away from you they will have to turn to chase; outrun them to the goal and score.

From these two offensive principles come two defensive principles. If you want to make the enemy carrier stall, stopping power (mines, nades, EMP, wall) is the way to go. And if you want to keep the carrier from getting behind you, you need a distributed defense - don't all do the same thing (e.g. pick one side of a barrier) else the carrier will juke you and it'll be him vs the goalie splodet.

I used to play ball all the time when it came out but in small games, the pace is just too fast and goals stem from very momentary advantages. It would be like if in 5v5 TBD every time you had 4 planes spawned to the enemy's 3 you would be reliably guaranteed a base hit. Goals are stopped "on the goal line" far more often in TBD than ball. The other part of Ball that annoyed me a bit after a long time playing it, was that maneuvering >>> dogfighting, for winning. A greater emphasis on maneuvering is OK but in the mode as it currently stands, small games are ALL ABOUT maneuver. The carrier moves faster than TBD, he can pass the bomb, and he can score from considerably further away. IMHO this is why loopies dominate. A plane that can't intercept the carrier might as well not be on the field. This makes the mode frustrating for me compared to TBD where it is much, much harder to "slip" past the enemy without fighting.

Last edited by Sarah Palin; 12-25-2009 at 08:27 PM.
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Old 12-25-2009, 08:46 PM
nesnl nesnl is offline
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I may or may not add my thoughts to the guide. I feel like if I post then I am giving away my secrets, which in the end will only bring the field closer to my level. There are already enough people who mimicked my style and now are really good ballers, so what incentive do I have by divulging any more information?
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Old 12-25-2009, 09:02 PM
tgleaf tgleaf is offline
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Originally Posted by nesnl View Post
I may or may not add my thoughts to the guide. I feel like if I post then I am giving away my secrets, which in the end will only bring the field closer to my level. There are already enough people who mimicked my style and now are really good ballers, so what incentive do I have by divulging any more information?
Selfish, selfish. That's exactly what we did by creating the guide. Gave away secrets.

What incentive do I have to want to balance the power of the loopy versus other planes in ball? Same question, same answer.
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  #18  
Old 12-25-2009, 09:32 PM
Kuja900 Kuja900 is offline
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You over complicate the game and over value passing. Your strategies are all overcomplicated theory as any tests you could have conceivably done would have been against sub par opponents against whom any "strategy" would have worked. The concept of people staying back on defense is safety net for less experienced teams and just leaves your offense lackluster. Not trying to be a hater just giving my honest opinion and I do definitely appreciate your taking the time to contribute something potentially useful to the community, props for that.
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  #19  
Old 12-25-2009, 09:47 PM
tgleaf tgleaf is offline
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Originally Posted by Kuja900 View Post
You over complicate the game and over value passing. Your strategies are all overcomplicated theory as any tests you could have conceivably done would have been against sub par opponents against whom any "strategy" would have worked. The concept of people staying back on defense is safety net for less experienced teams and just leaves your offense lackluster. Not trying to be a hater just giving my honest opinion and I do definitely appreciate your taking the time to contribute something potentially useful to the community, props for that.
The game can be complicated if played well. This guide is not for players new to ball. It is for mid- to high-level players who want to bring their skill level up a notch. The complications come in when you are doing normal things, such as grabbing the ball near your goal or heading for a choke point. There are moves that most players make, and then there are better choices -- that we tried to explain in the guide.

As for passing, it is something that rarely happens in ball games. As you can see, we wrote a page or more about the subject not because we think it's a large part of the game, but because we would like to see it become that way. Also, one well-timed or conceived pass can be an automatic goal against even very good teams. Passing doesn't have to be the majority of your ball-handling time for it to have a positive effect. Lastly, if some of the proposed changes to ball occur (nerfing the miranda self-pass, slowing down planes with the ball, altering the spawn delay for loopies), passing will become crucial to the game.

And to say that we tested this against "sub par" opponents is inaccurate. We tested it against each other, as well as against other ball teams, and yes, against less skilled players/teams as well.

The one area where I will certainly accept criticism is in the sections that discuss kill tactics for various planes. The very best players in each plane simply are not playing ball at this moment (although more and more of them are starting to take notice and potentially take an interest), so my the comments about taking out a miranda or whale are indeed against less than veteran players.

Can you explain which part you are referring to when you state that staying back on defense is a bad idea? I think if you read the whole section, you'll see that we think this is a terrible idea. I wrote the formations section to include what other players often do, not to only include the best formations. If the guide isn't clear about our opinion that defense is not something more than one player should commit to and that offense is much more important (the first paragraph of the guide alludes to this), then we have made a mistake.

Thanks for the feedback.

Last edited by tgleaf; 12-25-2009 at 10:01 PM.
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  #20  
Old 12-25-2009, 10:06 PM
nesnl nesnl is offline
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As far as I can tell Kuja is just trying to get a rise out of you. That is what most people are doing when they merely post a "you are wrong" post without any information to back themselves up. That and I have only seen Kuja play ball once or twice, so I am not sure if he is familiar with any of the current styles of play in the game's nowadays.

Also, I read what you wrote and I may consider adding in some information. There are some key strategies and tactics that most people miss, not because they aren't smart enough, but because they always have played ball on bouncy servers. The thing that is important to this game is that the other modes (as well as hard walls) can teach a lot about the game that can be applied to the Ball mode. I think that overall the Ball mode promotes an ineffective game style for the most part, but again, I will think about it and probably post something later.
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  #21  
Old 12-25-2009, 11:07 PM
Kuja900 Kuja900 is offline
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Originally Posted by nesnl View Post
As far as I can tell Kuja is just trying to get a rise out of you. That is what most people are doing when they merely post a "you are wrong" post without any information to back themselves up. That and I have only seen Kuja play ball once or twice, so I am not sure if he is familiar with any of the current styles of play in the game's nowadays.

Also, I read what you wrote and I may consider adding in some information. There are some key strategies and tactics that most people miss, not because they aren't smart enough, but because they always have played ball on bouncy servers. The thing that is important to this game is that the other modes (as well as hard walls) can teach a lot about the game that can be applied to the Ball mode. I think that overall the Ball mode promotes an ineffective game style for the most part, but again, I will think about it and probably post something later.
Ive played a lot more ball than I'd like to admit, especially recently. Don't forget who won the last plane ball tournament. I am more than qualified to criticize.
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  #22  
Old 12-25-2009, 11:14 PM
OjM OjM is offline
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Originally Posted by nesnl View Post
I think that overall the Ball mode promotes an ineffective game style for the most part, but again, I will think about it and probably post something later.
For TBD? Yes, prolly. I tend to die a lot in ball, and don't even care or it's even favorable sometimes because of the fast spawning times anyway.

Last edited by OjM; 12-25-2009 at 11:15 PM. Reason: edited some wordings...
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  #23  
Old 12-25-2009, 11:20 PM
tgleaf tgleaf is offline
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Originally Posted by Kuja900 View Post
Ive played a lot more ball than I'd like to admit, especially recently. Don't forget who won the last plane ball tournament. I am more than qualified to criticize.
Don't forget who will win the next one.

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  #24  
Old 12-25-2009, 11:41 PM
Kuja900 Kuja900 is offline
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Originally Posted by tgleaf View Post
The game can be complicated if played well. This guide is not for players new to ball. It is for mid- to high-level players who want to bring their skill level up a notch. The complications come in when you are doing normal things, such as grabbing the ball near your goal or heading for a choke point. There are moves that most players make, and then there are better choices -- that we tried to explain in the guide.

As for passing, it is something that rarely happens in ball games. As you can see, we wrote a page or more about the subject not because we think it's a large part of the game, but because we would like to see it become that way. Also, one well-timed or conceived pass can be an automatic goal against even very good teams. Passing doesn't have to be the majority of your ball-handling time for it to have a positive effect. Lastly, if some of the proposed changes to ball occur (nerfing the miranda self-pass, slowing down planes with the ball, altering the spawn delay for loopies), passing will become crucial to the game.

And to say that we tested this against "sub par" opponents is inaccurate. We tested it against each other, as well as against other ball teams, and yes, against less skilled players/teams as well.

The one area where I will certainly accept criticism is in the sections that discuss kill tactics for various planes. The very best players in each plane simply are not playing ball at this moment (although more and more of them are starting to take notice and potentially take an interest), so my the comments about taking out a miranda or whale are indeed against less than veteran players.

Can you explain which part you are referring to when you state that staying back on defense is a bad idea? I think if you read the whole section, you'll see that we think this is a terrible idea. I wrote the formations section to include what other players often do, not to only include the best formations. If the guide isn't clear about our opinion that defense is not something more than one player should commit to and that offense is much more important (the first paragraph of the guide alludes to this), then we have made a mistake.

Thanks for the feedback.
"There should always be some kind of defense, someone who can get to the goal, before the enemy plane can go and shoot from a convenient position. You should learn some usual shooting places so you know where you should not let enemy get with the ball."

"Goalies" (2-3): Two explodets guard the goal while three loopies try to score. Most new ball players/clans will use this strategy as it appears to offer the most defense. But having two slow "goalies" in the backcourt may not offer enough offensive support when the loopies try to score."

Wasting man power by having planes stay back is utterly absurd in each and every game mode.

Also as long as their is the miranda self pass all of these fancy passing strategies are obsolete and serve as nothing more than fluff for you guide.
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  #25  
Old 12-25-2009, 11:42 PM
Kuja900 Kuja900 is offline
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Originally Posted by tgleaf View Post
Don't forget who will win the next one.

Care to put your team where your mouth is?
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  #26  
Old 12-25-2009, 11:44 PM
wolf'j'max wolf'j'max is offline
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Originally Posted by Kuja900 View Post
Care to put your team where your mouth is?
Care to try and make a guide yourself?

(sorry but i just go annoyed by some people not just you)
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  #27  
Old 12-25-2009, 11:47 PM
tgleaf tgleaf is offline
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Originally Posted by Kuja900 View Post
"There should always be some kind of defense, someone who can get to the goal, before the enemy plane can go and shoot from a convenient position. You should learn some usual shooting places so you know where you should not let enemy get with the ball."
Yes, someone should always be designated as defense. Otherwise, everyone is thinking offensively and you get caught off guard. It doesn't say that someone should camp in the goal area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuja900 View Post
"Goalies" (2-3): Two explodets guard the goal while three loopies try to score. Most new ball players/clans will use this strategy as it appears to offer the most defense. But having two slow "goalies" in the backcourt may not offer enough offensive support when the loopies try to score."
As I said before, this is a common formation that teams use. I highly recommend against it, for reasons I've already outlined.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuja900 View Post
Wasting man power by having planes stay back is utterly absurd in each and every game mode.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuja900 View Post
Also as long as their is the miranda self pass all of these fancy passing strategies are obsolete and serve as nothing more than fluff for you guide.
All the more reason why miranda self-pass needs to change. We are thinking forward, not just about what ball is currently like, but about how it can improve.

I'll be the first to admit that a skilled miranda doing self-pass can beat a team like {ball}. If you don't consider that move cheating, I have no more to say to you about it.
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  #28  
Old 12-25-2009, 11:48 PM
tgleaf tgleaf is offline
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Originally Posted by Kuja900 View Post
Care to put your team where your mouth is?
Any time, any place.
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  #29  
Old 12-25-2009, 11:48 PM
Kuja900 Kuja900 is offline
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Originally Posted by wolf'j'max View Post
Care to try and make a guide yourself?

(sorry but i just go annoyed by some people not just you)
Just because someone who hasn't authored a guide is criticizing some of the details of someone who has does not discredit their views. I gave props where props were due. Keep your childish retorts to yourself.
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  #30  
Old 12-25-2009, 11:51 PM
Kuja900 Kuja900 is offline
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Any time, any place.
Hmm fLb will be starting scrim nights on Thursdays after we enter the new year. Bring a Ball* squad to one of those meets and we'll tune you up proper.
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  #31  
Old 12-26-2009, 03:48 AM
Herodadotus Herodadotus is offline
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Well, I'm not exactly qualified to say much on these topics, but the way I see it, most of these strategies would not be as effective in a 'pub' match. Many people play with the plane that they are most comfortable, and there is no time to really make a good strategy. In the matches I've played, ball is hectic, and revolves around offense and just flying towards the ball and/or goal with reckless abandon. That's just my opinion, though. I think this guide is better for a group of ball players (like {Ball}) that regularly have time to refine their strategies. I did enjoy reading this, however. Very well written, and it could be useful in the future.
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  #32  
Old 12-26-2009, 03:50 AM
tyr tyr is offline
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Originally Posted by Kuja900 View Post
Don't forget who won the last plane ball tournament.
That argument just isn't valid.
Neither GGQ or myself were good ball players then, and I think I can say without too much risk that we're both in the top10 ball players now. I'm not even talking about Maimer.
The point is, nobody knew how to play ball then, so obviously one of the best tbd teams won, because they're good at killing people.
Well sir, now, people know how to play ball. And in a fLb vs ball match, I'd put my money on ball.
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  #33  
Old 12-26-2009, 04:06 AM
Kuja900 Kuja900 is offline
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Originally Posted by tyr View Post
That argument just isn't valid.
Neither GGQ or myself were good ball players then, and I think I can say without too much risk that we're both in the top10 ball players now. I'm not even talking about Maimer.
The point is, nobody knew how to play ball then, so obviously one of the best tbd teams won, because they're good at killing people.
Well sir, now, people know how to play ball. And in a fLb vs ball match, I'd put my money on ball.
Hah you must be joking. It sounds like after new years we need to kickoff another planeball tournament.
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  #34  
Old 12-26-2009, 04:19 AM
tyr tyr is offline
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No I'm not joking.
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  #35  
Old 12-26-2009, 04:55 AM
OjM OjM is offline
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Originally Posted by Herodadotus View Post
Well, I'm not exactly qualified to say much on these topics, but the way I see it, most of these strategies would not be as effective in a 'pub' match. Many people play with the plane that they are most comfortable, and there is no time to really make a good strategy. In the matches I've played, ball is hectic, and revolves around offense and just flying towards the ball and/or goal with reckless abandon. That's just my opinion, though. I think this guide is better for a group of ball players (like {Ball}) that regularly have time to refine their strategies. I did enjoy reading this, however. Very well written, and it could be useful in the future.
Indeed. That's what I wrote on the original guide too.

"If it is a public server you are playing, and you donít know those people, all bets are off. You donít need to pass to those players you donít trust at all, you should not trust the defence too much, because you are usually without it, and you are not going to have anyone reliable hanging around the goal to pass to... "
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  #36  
Old 12-26-2009, 05:04 AM
TomBRowkaH TomBRowkaH is offline
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Cool guide. The {ball} guys are actually pretty good from what I've seen.

I'd like to mention that if you happen to grab the ball when your team spawns after the other team has just scored on you, it is generally better to wait a second or so before charging forward. That way the other team has often wasted their ammo shooting your team's planes, and you are free to charge through to the goal rather than just die instantly to bomber spam.
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  #37  
Old 12-26-2009, 05:20 AM
CCN CCN is offline
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Originally Posted by TomBRowkaH View Post
Cool guide. The {ball} guys are actually pretty good from what I've seen.

I'd like to mention that if you happen to grab the ball when your team spawns after the other team has just scored on you, it is generally better to wait a second or so before charging forward. That way the other team has often wasted their ammo shooting your team's planes, and you are free to charge through to the goal rather than just die instantly to bomber spam.
Ball*'s gonna own it up in any new tournament ^_^.
Tgleaf/Drunk/arty/etc up for hosting a ball tourney? I'd be free to help out >_>.
One day single elim random draw?

Last edited by CCN; 12-26-2009 at 05:25 AM.
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  #38  
Old 12-26-2009, 05:25 AM
drunkguava drunkguava is offline
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Originally Posted by Kuja900 View Post
Hmm fLb will be starting scrim nights on Thursdays after we enter the new year. Bring a Ball* squad to one of those meets and we'll tune you up proper
Heheh, lets do it. I really want to see some of you elite tbd guys in action. They're only a few of you I've seen often. I would assume you've never seen {ball} or {ball*} players play either otherwise you would not be saying that passing strategies are obsolete, and frankly that you would even post that might make me think that your ball skeelz are dubious at best. That's probably not a valid judgement though because otherwise you wouldnt be mouthing off.

by the way, where do you play ball, Kuja? Do you use private servers? (I'm not saying this is a bad thing, I'm just curious. I know how frustrating it can be to play with people who are just starting out with the game.) You're talking some trash, but I've never seen you in a ball game, and I play way too much. Are you using a dif name?

Edit: I would be up for that, CCN. None of us have any servers that will work for a tournament though. Mine's just running off my desktop.
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  #39  
Old 12-26-2009, 05:29 AM
CCN CCN is offline
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Heheh, lets do it. I really want to see some of you elite tbd guys in action. They're only a few of you I've seen often. I would assume you've never seen {ball} or {ball*} players play either otherwise you would not be saying that passing strategies are obsolete, and frankly that you would even post that might make me think that your ball skeelz are dubious at best. That's probably not a valid judgement though because otherwise you wouldnt be mouthing off.

by the way, where do you play ball, Kuja? Do you use private servers? (I'm not saying this is a bad thing, I'm just curious. I know how frustrating it can be to play with people who are just starting out with the game.) You're talking some trash, but I've never seen you in a ball game, and I play way too much. Are you using a dif name?

Edit: I would be up for that, CCN. None of us have any servers that will work for a tournament though. Mine's just running off my desktop.
Hopefully we can use borrow Proleague. They had a nice setup for the last ball tourney with timelimits on maps. If Kuja and Tyr are as up for this as they seem there will be two admins on hand.

So the quick question is
Can we borrow proleague Kuja/Tyr/etc?
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  #40  
Old 12-26-2009, 05:32 AM
Kuja900 Kuja900 is offline
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Originally Posted by CCN View Post
Hopefully we can use borrow Proleague. They had a nice setup for the last ball tourney with timelimits on maps. If Kuja and Tyr are as up for this as they seem there will be two admins on hand.

So the quick question is
Can we borrow proleague Kuja/Tyr/etc?
I was actually thinking about organizing it similar to the last planeball tournament. It would probably be over the course of 2 Sundays, and yes for anything competitive in nature the proleague servers are available for your use.
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