Ball Mode Brainstorm Thread

[nesnl]

So I thought I would start a thread on the ball mode because I am interested in making the mode more balanced as well as creating new maps for this mode specifically instead of just adapting old maps for this mode. Anyway, here are some issues I have and possible changes, feel free to post here any ideas you have:


The planes seem like they aren't balanced, as a result Loopy is by far the best plane in the mode. This imbalance makes maps play differently than they would if all the planes were on equal footing.

• Possible solution would be to change the speed at which planes pass the ball, with explodet throwing the ball the fastest and loopy the slowest.
• Possible solution would be to change the speed at which planes fly when they are carrying the ball, slowing the loopy down with the extra payload and not slowing the explodet down as much due to the weight.

The Miranda self pass becomes more and more dominant as the games get smaller, but even in big games there are situations where a Miranda will go coast to coast just due to the plane placement.

• Possible solution would be to change the time in which you pass the ball and when you can pick it back up again.

The spawn points in the game dictate how the map is played. If the spawn points are too central to the area of play then it creates a stalemate, which makes it hard to progress the ball due to the incoming spawn waves. If the spawn points are too far away from the battle it gives even further disadvantage to slower planes, such as explodet, and makes the Loopy and even better choice due to its speed and ease of getting back in the fight.

• Possible solution would be to have the spawn time dictated by the plane, with explodets spawning the fastest, say 3 seconds, and then increasing all the way up to the Loopy at say 7 seconds.
• Possible solution would be to give a speed boost to planes so that they all fly Loopy speed for a certain duration after a spawn, possibly 5 seconds.
• Possible solutions would be to have clusters of spawn points all around the map and a player would spawn closest to where they died.

The problem of spawn points is one of the major factors in how a map is made. A map can literally be horrible or great depending on where the spawn points are located. I don't think the ideal spawning scheme has been developed and I think it should be looked at in order to really optimize the mode. If you have any ideas pertaining to how you think spawning could be better please post here. Also, any other ideas you have for the ball mode I am definitely interested in hearing. I really want to make some good maps, but the maps should be designed around a mode that is well balanced and I don't want to make maps to only have them not be as good if things change.

[DiogenesDog]

On the self-pass issue -

Can't remember who suggested it originally, but I've always been interested in making the slowdown from holding the ball be "sticky" (lasts for a second or so after letting go of it). You'd have to have some kind of feedback to make this obvious, but you could make it last just long enough to prevent the full miranda warp for the self pass.

Might have some other negative side effects, but worth a try imo!

[nesnl]

I think the self pass is an important aspect of the game, just not in the case of the Miranda because it offers little to no chance of intercepting the pass and it is the fastest plane when it is warping. I don't want to see people penalized for passing, and I think that the self pass should be fine as long as the ball is left out there long enough so that the other team has a shot at grabbing it.

[WhoFly]

It's my opinion that Ball should be dominated by the loopy. Otherwise, the game would have a lot of nuthin' going on. Too slow. Wide receivers, running backs... point guards... strikers. No matter what sport, the scoring players are the usually the fastest and most agile.

Ball should not try to be like the other modes in Altitude, we have enough combat-oriented modes already...

I think, in a public server at least, a team of 6 should probably have 4 loopies, an explodet, and either a bomber or a miranda. The best way to score in Ball is to create breakaways with sudden, forceful defense and a push with strong momentum in the opposite direction, which are usually carried by a few loopies flying together. No other plane has the ability to move the ball so quickly and change the rhythm of the game like the loopy, and with less of them, the game tends to get increasingly slow.

One suggestion i might be able to get behind is reducing the speed penalty for carrying the ball with an explodet. They're slow already and their massive frames should be well-equipped to handle the ball just fine. Plus the mines already create a nice counter to the aforementioned loopy rush, so more incentive for Explodets to be played would probably end up countering the loopy's effectiveness indirectly.

[hurripilot]

The problem with that idea is that no plane should dominate a play mode. Sure, Biplane is the best bomb runner, but and army of biplanes is not a good way to go in a TBD match. The reason TBD is such a great mode and is so popular is that every plane has a valuable place and function in the team, so everyone gets help the team out. Ball shouldn't just be made into a Loopy fest with a few Randas or Explos thrown in for support, every plane should have a function, just like in other game modes. That's the whole idea behind having different plane types and behind this game in general. Otherwise, why bother having different plane types and perks?

[Vania]

I dont like ball...
Also I see no problem with loopy and miranda dominating ball.

The problem with ball is: passing is still not that useful, mainly because if a plane runs ahead to open up for a pass he will be killed very fast.

To fix ball you just need to make planes invulnerable unless they have the ball, that would encourage passes and make it viable to look for openings beetween your enemies. Add bigger maps and you got yourself a cool mode.

[WhoFly]

I guess I'm just saying Ball ought not be balanced. Unless you plan on increasing the speed of all the planes only for Ball, there is no way to balance the gametype and keep a fast enough pace to make Ball engaging.

Slower is not a solution, but it seems to be the only one provided. Slower passing, slower with the ball, slower for a second after you pass.

Any plane can be a difference maker in Ball, but because of how games with balls work, a team should usually be mostly loopies.

[WhoFly]

Originally Posted by Vania

I dont like ball...
Also I see no problem with loopy and miranda dominating ball.

The problem with ball is: passing is still not that useful, mainly because if a plane runs ahead to open up for a pass he will be killed very fast.

To fix ball you just need to make planes invulnerable unless they have the ball, that would encourage passes and make it viable to look for openings beetween your enemies. Add bigger maps and you got yourself a cool mode.

Passing is very useful, and not doing it almost always costs your team a few goals. If you are trying to get open for a pass and allow yourself to be killed, you didn't do a very good job getting open, or you were just better off covering from behind instead...

And all the planes being invulnerable except the ballcarrier would just never work.

[andy]

Originally Posted by Vania

I dont like ball...
Also I see no problem with loopy and miranda dominating ball.

The problem with ball is: passing is still not that useful, mainly because if a plane runs ahead to open up for a pass he will be killed very fast.

To fix ball you just need to make planes invulnerable unless they have the ball, that would encourage passes and make it viable to look for openings beetween your enemies. Add bigger maps and you got yourself a cool mode.

I actually like this idea although it should be perfected.. maybe giving 2x health to planes without the ball?
also ball games always end up in 10 v 10 spamfests where there is an explo goalkeeping and 9 loopys pressing f.
I think there is a need for 5 v 5 servers to make the gameplay competitive.

possible suggestions to make passing more effective:
- making passes faster and more direct.
- charging pass/shot like the miranda shot? higher charge faster shot.(would take gameplay to a whole new level)

[WhoFly]

Originally Posted by andy

I think there is a need for 5 v 5 servers to make the gameplay competitive.

possible suggestions to make passing more effective:
- making passes faster and more direct.
- charging pass/shot like the miranda shot? higher charge faster shot.(would take gameplay to a whole new level)

I agree with all of that. Except maybe make the passes for just a certain plane (or two) faster. The charging shot could be fun too. And yeah after 6v6 ball is always just mayhem.

[GGQ]

I don't have any real evidence for this statement, but I don't think 5v5 is optimal for planeball. It's a very different mode from TBD, and I think you need a few more planes on the field to experience the most fun and teamplay out of it. With fewer planes, it becomes less about passing and positioning, and more about individual dogfighting. I'd suggest 6v6 or 7v7.

Also WhyFly has a point about ball being very fast-paced, which has a lot to do with how entertaining it is. Slowing down the game might not be the best choice, so I'd just like to warn about that.

[tgleaf]

I'm with WhoFly. What a coincidence, we're both in {ball}. Ball should not be balanced. Yes, I fly loopy, so I'm going to be biased, but I think his football analogy is perfect. Our non-loopy players know exactly what their role is, and we couldn't do the crazy stunts we do without their support.

Balancing the planes in BALL would simply take the scoring out. I love soccer, but many people can't stand it because games are always 1-0 after 90 minutes of play. That's what would happen in a non-loopy-dominant ball game.

Maimer, I appreciate that you're trying to improve ball, and I always like your maps, but I just don't see a need right now to adjust the way the mode works.

I also just started a thread about changing the servers to 6v6 ( http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2015).

[nesnl]

I don't blame the loopy players for wanting to keep the game 90% loopy, mainly because they have by far the greatest advantage in the game. Why wouldn't you want to keep the mode the same when you can dominate the other 4 planes with ease. You see the problem with the football analogy is that even though you have specific roles, each role is important. However, in ball mode right now, the best strategy is simply to fill the entire team with loopys, which is the equivalent of having a football team of all wide receivers.

i am not trying to take away the ability of the loopy to be fast and agile, just merely trying to make the other planes more useful. Honestly, I say try playing for a week in ball mode and use anything but Loopy, then you will be on my side. In the end, the team should be a balance, with explodet being the quarterback, bomber your fullback, and so on.

I think in the end you guys are cheapening the game by trying to promote a selfish style of balance just so that Loopy still dominates. And, again, I am not trying to diminish Loopy's abilities, just trying to make the other planes more useful.

[tgleaf]

Saw right through us.

[drunkguava]

Originally Posted by nesnl

However, in ball mode right now, the best strategy is simply to fill the entire team with loopys,

i disagree with that statement completely. Teams with only loopys get owned consistently. It doesn't matter how good they are individually. We tried that with {ball} initially but it didnt really work all that well.
Explos are needed mostly for defense, bombers are needed throughout the map for killing and pushing the ball, biplanes are the only plane without a real role. I think they are utility players, they can kill better than loopys and still score.
I do agree that if you want to get other planes more involved in offense things will need to be changed. But I don't think they should be as drastic as you're suggesting. I liked the idea about eliminating the ball-carrying penalty for whales and maybe even bombers to increase their speed. Increasing spawn time for mirandas and loopys would also open up the map a bit for other planes with more health to do something with the ball.

[Carbon]

- Make it so to pick up your own pass it needs to bounce or be in the air for 2 full seconds

- reduce ball speed penalty on explodets by 40%, bombers by 20%

- increase respawn time by 1 second or more

[WhoFly]

Originally Posted by Carbon

- Make it so to pick up your own pass it needs to bounce or be in the air for 2 full seconds

- reduce ball speed penalty on explodets by 40%, bombers by 20%

- increase respawn time by 1 second or more

It seems to me like those calling for "better balance in ball" mean, specifically, that the other planes should make equally viable scorers. This seems to me to indicate that you all don't really watch much sports. That is not how any sport in the world works. Different body types and skill sets, different role on a team. Linemen get no glory on the gridiron, yet they're the most important players on a team. Sure they never finish as the MVP or get their pictures pasted on the MNFmobile, but it all starts up front.

A trustworthy explodet tending your goal, and a bomber softening up opponents in the middle of the field help the loopies push confidently and quickly without having to worry too much about making an emergency defensive retreat.

For a better idea of the football analogy I had in mind, please watch some Oregon Ducks (GO DUCKS) football, or any other college team running a style of the spread option (florida, west virginia, and georgia tech to name a few). To flip the analogy over, an 'explodet' style Quarterback would never work in a spread option system. Instead, the role of the explo and bomber would be to act as the offensive line to the 3 or 4 loopies, which act as all the skill positions, variously. The QB is just as viable a running back as the running back. But honestly football isn't even a great analogy here because it doesn't flow the same way planeball does.

As a loopy player, I know just how much harder a single explo (who places his or her mines well) makes my life. The game changes entirely. And any time you must approach the goal in a climb, a bomber is your worstestest enemy.

Last night, playing with mostly {ball} dudes plus my friend Fuzzywuzzy in an official server, Fuzzy managed to go like 30-10 and score a goal, flying a biplane and bomber exclusively. Is he just a total badass? Maybe. But he was playing with a bunch of talented cats in quicker planes and still managed to create the chaos needed for us quickuns to swoop in and score a goal.

It's not about points. To me it is, because I'm a loopy and we're all divas. To you, it is not. If you would like it to be, fly loopy. If you can't fly loopy, then fall back into your role please and leave the scoring to us sexy beasts. Rawr.

[nesnl]

I think you said a lot in your post that I agree with. I think that on the whole, scoring should be done by the loopies. However, I think where we disagree is the utility of the roles of the other planes. While the other planes do offer other advantages, such as the defensive abilities of an explodet, I feel that on a whole these advantages are outweighed by the disadvantages to the Loopy's overall abilities to fill all the roles.

So again, I am not looking to ways to diminish the Loopy's abilities to be fast and score goals, I am just looking to expand the abilities of the other planes in the mode.

Anyway, I want to steer the conversation away from whether or not the mode is fine with the games being filled with 90% Loopies. I think that most people would agree that this needs to be changed. So if you have any ideas of any changes that you think would make the game mode more balanced, fun, and keeping to the style of the mode, please post! Definitely still looking for optimal spawning strategies as this problem needs to be solved in order to make some great maps!

[WhoFly]

Yeah I see what you mean for sure, and I can get behind what you're saying too. One explo and maybe a bomber and maybe a biplane is, at most, all you'd need. The loopy as a defensive chaser is by far the best and that alone makes it very powerful. It is the best scorer, the best 'point guard', the best 'cornerback'. And the EMP is extraordinarily useful in Ball. Maybe if bomber or biplane had a speed/agility-reducing ability, they would get played more.

One option is specifically adjusting the planes for one mode. It would increase the learning curve, which experienced players wouldn't mind much, but in a game as (brilliantly) accessible as this, it would just feel weird.

So maybe we really are left with only 'ball-modifiers' as as our balance options.

We're gonna explore a few right heahhh...

First of all - and let's make sure we're talking about hard walls here. Explos are MUCH more effective with hard walls - I don't think a thing needs to be changed about the Explo in ball. All you need is one, or two in a bigger game, and that's all you should need. They make too big of an impact in the clustered action that ball tends to be at times, and are quite useless when the action is past them. Pretty situational, and with too many on one team, goals don't get scored. By either team.

Though maybe making them have a fast, straight pass or some sort of other effective ball-clearing ability would help their role as Goalie. Something similar to a drop kick in function? A pass that couldn't be intercepted for 1 second, so they could shoot it through a close defender? The explo's resistance to pursuit and health make it able to get to midfield pretty easily, and this ability would make for some pretty cool passing plays. But something like that could encourage a game to be a leapfrog of 3 or 4 explos laying mines for each other and passing.

...(hmmm has anyone tried that already?)...
But okay moving on.

A bomber ballhandling-speed increase is a good idea because without afterburners they get hunted down, even while they're pumping their tailguns (the reason they have no afterburners). It could "make sense" too because the bomber has a big bay and it could hold the ball blah blah blah justified!
I don't see what else you could change about the bomber.

The miranda's fine. Don't nerf the self pass. It's not too hard to deal with if you know what you're doing as a defense.

The biplane... just isn't designed to thrive in this environment. Maybe no ballhandling speed penalty would make them a decent alternative as runner/chaser. Some players already play the biplane very well though. Mostly just as good support and cover, but that's quite important.


All in all I still don't think anything needs to be changed. Just trying to see a little middle ground.

edit: TL;DR

- Explo is fine. maaaaaaybe a faster pass?
- Bomber maaaaybe a little more speed
- Miranda is fine. Don't nerf self pass. No way.
- Biplane is fine in a good player's hands as support and doesn't need changes. It's just not quite gonna fit in as well as loopy given the nature of ball vs the other game types.
- But really I don't think we need to mess with it at all.

[Herodadotus]

Originally Posted by WhoFly

It's my opinion that Ball should be dominated by the loopy. Otherwise, the game would have a lot of nuthin' going on. Too slow. Wide receivers, running backs... point guards... strikers. No matter what sport, the scoring players are the usually the fastest and most agile.

Ball should not try to be like the other modes in Altitude, we have enough combat-oriented modes already...

I think, in a public server at least, a team of 6 should probably have 4 loopies, an explodet, and either a bomber or a miranda. The best way to score in Ball is to create breakaways with sudden, forceful defense and a push with strong momentum in the opposite direction, which are usually carried by a few loopies flying together. No other plane has the ability to move the ball so quickly and change the rhythm of the game like the loopy, and with less of them, the game tends to get increasingly slow.

One suggestion i might be able to get behind is reducing the speed penalty for carrying the ball with an explodet. They're slow already and their massive frames should be well-equipped to handle the ball just fine. Plus the mines already create a nice counter to the aforementioned loopy rush, so more incentive for Explodets to be played would probably end up countering the loopy's effectiveness indirectly.

Aw man. I was scoring loads with my biplane, but now that ball is supposed to be a loopy dominated sport . . .

[WhoFly]

Originally Posted by Herodadotus

Aw man. I was scoring loads with my biplane, but now that ball is supposed to be a loopy dominated sport . . .

No there are great biplane players. More power to you. I'm not trashing on anything. Just saying it doesn't need more balance. If you can score well with your biplane, then we're on the same side.

[Wintegral]

It's true, the Loopy should be the best runner but I think the idea for reducing spawn times for the slower planes has merit. Then there would me more encouragement for other planes to take to the front lines and clear the way for loopys. Also it'd make the all-loopy team, now extremely powerful, less of a viable option if your enemy would be spawning faster.

[Sarah Palin]

In TBD action takes place throughout the map, in Ball action centers completely around the ball's location (like third-grader soccer). Loopies dominate because they can get there faster. I doubt this is fixable; it's an inherent flaw in Ball.

The only fix I can think of would be to make the ballcarrier, regardless of plane, fly as slow as an Explodet. This would take away Loopy's mobility advantage as carrier, and would encourage passing, both good things. It would also generally make the game slower encouraging other plane types. On the other hand, it would make the game slower which neuters much of the fun of Ball as opposed to TBD.

[arty]

we migh need to wait juat a few months to see what really happens in ball now that you cannot be a demo rubber loopy forever anymore. I think the effect of that is already makeing ball a more diverse playing field.

We do need to remember that ball is altitudes gateway drug for demo noobs because their plane does not seem so inferior as in other modes.

Just my 2 cents

[OjM]

So, I'm going to give my 2 cents too.

I play Loopy, and I score lots. I'm also not killing too badly, sometimes getting good ratios too.

I don't think ball should be changed (except for the bug that makes ball go through the goal on touchdowns sometimes). I do think there is room for other planes too.

Loopy has hard time getting through good defence. I often pass to tough planes on goal when I don't think I'm going through the defence with loopy. When there are fewer planes on, loopy has hard time defending, because it takes time to kill attacker.

I self pass with loopy on darkwar and football when starting, I don't want that be ruined with some bouncerule or 2sec rule. It's like my only way going through those 8 red planes coming at me in footballmap, and even that doesn't work too well when someone starts laying those bombs. Also, I advance on bottom, passing to myself with loopy. Would suck if ball had to bounce.

I also am training myself with miranda. I'm getting high ratios and I'm still making goals, so I don't really think loopys are all that, even though I really cannot handle the ball well with miranda yet. I've not even really tried that self-passing thingy, mostly because I'm usually having the shot loaded and not even trying that hard to goal. And I still do make goals. So miranda is ok, for me when killing and scoring, so defending kind of works, but It's too hard for me to catch the ball with miranda when someone shoots. Might be due me sucking though.

I think this thing should at least wait for some months, we'll see some balling clans forming and they would obviously be most qualified reporting about needed modifications.

I also think this is mostly just about teamplay. I'm really glad playing with {ball}, because our guys are good, and we often act like team. We do pass, and it really helps. When I play on public servers, there's too many people just going for goal like nothing else matters. Even when there are passable people near open goal. Then they die.

I'd really like it if, when I'm advancing on bottom (like, always), some tougher plane would be on enemy goal and I could pass to it, and he could goal. It would be important, because getting to goal is hard from bottom. But no. When I get the ball, I'm obviously not passing to slow planes middleground, because getting to goal needs speed. But when I get there, there should be defence, and tougher planes would get there easier from middle, and I could shoot somewhere near them, they could $$$. But no. I still usually need to try shooting to goal in vain or getting through the defence. If there's an explo on goal and I'm going from bottom, there should be no goal, because I've used my energy getting there and he's not magically going to die.

Another way other planes could be useful is killing that Whale in front of goal so I could shoot.

But really. Is only way a plane can be good in ball scoring? I say not. Like people has said, there are other roles than scoring. Defence is important, and whale does well there. It fills the goal, so I as loopy cannot shoot from far. Other planes needs to come and kill the defence so loopy could score.

I really think it's ok for loopies to do the scoring. Also, they are already really weak, it's nice that they still can endure that single mine somehow. But after that, they are not going to get to goal fast anymore.

Also, hardwalls should be the only mode in ball. Loopies suck there more, because they crash a lot (or I just suck again). It's sad seeing all ballgames played with bouncy. Arty has good point there, ball being the gateway drug... Oh man, I got so hooked there.

Conclusion. People are just greedy and not doing their job. That's why loopies are doing so well, because it's just easier to get to the goal and try shooting when other's have hard time getting to goal due to speed. Others could score better when they get there, but loopy just gets there so often it gets so many goals. That's why I prefer advancing on bottom, I often get to goal, but scoring is harder. If I tried it the other way around, i'd not get to the goal so often, i.e. not making as many goals. EDIT: In addition, it's a lot about missing defence too. If there would be defence all the time, loopy could not surprise that much anymore.

You prolly skipped here due to length, but thanks for reading anyway.

[Wintegral]

I did read through all your stuff . Some good points, though some things merit responses.

Originally Posted by OjM

So, I'm going to give my 2 cents too.
I self pass with loopy on darkwar and football when starting, I don't want that be ruined with some bouncerule or 2sec rule. It's like my only way going through those 8 red planes coming at me in footballmap, and even that doesn't work too well when someone starts laying those bombs. Also, I advance on bottom, passing to myself with loopy. Would suck if ball had to bounce.

Here you say yourself that it's useful when you need to get through a horde of enemies. If the other team is playing well, then you should never win when hopelessly outnumbered. Also, the problem with the passing was the 'randa self pass. Loopys passing to themselves really isn't op. After all, you can't do it anywhere like the 'randa.

Originally Posted by OjM

I also am training myself with miranda. I'm getting high ratios and I'm still making goals, so I don't really think loopys are all that, even though I really cannot handle the ball well with miranda yet. I've not even really tried that self-passing thingy, mostly because I'm usually having the shot loaded and not even trying that hard to goal. And I still do make goals. So miranda is ok, for me when killing and scoring, so defending kind of works, but It's too hard for me to catch the ball with miranda when someone shoots. Might be due me sucking though.

Sounds like you're not playing against very competent people. If you're making goals without even trying, then your enemy isn't trying to kill you hard enough or is just bad at it.

Originally Posted by OjM

I'd really like it if, when I'm advancing on bottom (like, always), some tougher plane would be on enemy goal and I could pass to it, and he could goal. It would be important, because getting to goal is hard from bottom. But no. When I get the ball, I'm obviously not passing to slow planes middleground, because getting to goal needs speed. But when I get there, there should be defence, and tougher planes would get there easier from middle, and I could shoot somewhere near them, they could $$$. But no. I still usually need to try shooting to goal in vain or getting through the defence. If there's an explo on goal and I'm going from bottom, there should be no goal, because I've used my energy getting there and he's not magically going to die.

You say it yourself, "getting to goal needs speed." If you used all your energy getting over then it's unlikely that your friendly neighborhood bomber or whatever could have gotten there in time.

Originally Posted by OjM

Another way other planes could be useful is killing that Whale in front of goal so I could shoot.

Yeah, but if you fly ahead nothing's going to be able to keep up with you save another loopy, which can indeed kill a whale. This sounds more like a statement saying teamwork helps (it always does) rather than a reason loopy isn't dominant.

Originally Posted by OjM

But really. Is only way a plane can be good in ball scoring? I say not. Like people has said, there are other roles than scoring. Defence is important, and whale does well there. It fills the goal, so I as loopy cannot shoot from far. Other planes needs to come and kill the defence so loopy could score.

This is true, and the problem isn't that people only play loopy but that it is dominant. Sure, you could have one Explo on goal but what reason do you have to not staff your team with nothing else but loopys? They'd be aggressive enough to keep the ball in the center. Preparing for defense by loading down on bombers and such would hurt your offense and would still end up with the enemy scoring, just it would take longer. You'd be setting yourself up for failure as they'd be too slow with the ball.

Originally Posted by OjM

I really think it's ok for loopies to do the scoring. Also, they are already really weak, it's nice that they still can endure that single mine somehow. But after that, they are not going to get to goal fast anymore.

Well, Loopys are easy to kill if they stay still, but they're fast. Once again it sounds like you're talking about scoring solo, which should be hard.

Originally Posted by OjM

Also, hardwalls should be the only mode in ball. Loopies suck there more, because they crash a lot (or I just suck again). It's sad seeing all ballgames played with bouncy. Arty has good point there, ball being the gateway drug... Oh man, I got so hooked there.

Agreed, bouncy walls are pretty lame

Originally Posted by OjM

Conclusion. People are just greedy and not doing their job. That's why loopies are doing so well, because it's just easier to get to the goal and try shooting when other's have hard time getting to goal due to speed. Others could score better when they get there, but loopy just gets there so often it gets so many goals. That's why I prefer advancing on bottom, I often get to goal, but scoring is harder. If I tried it the other way around, i'd not get to the goal so often, i.e. not making as many goals.

What does score "better" mean? A score is a score and if you can get to the goal before the defense, you win plain and simple. See, there's the problem. Sure, other planes are more survivable when they get in range of the goal but loopys will get there first. Further, they could easily outrun non-loopys.

Overall, you say that non-loopys can be useful. This is true. But wouldn't having another loopy instead be even more useful? (save the case with an Explo goalie) Building up a strong defense with slow planes makes your team slower all around, which makes scoring harder and therefore your team becomes worse.

[wiseguy]

Man, this thread is a beast!

I wanted to chime in a little bit. As another loopy player (I know, not making a strong case here) I know that it's very hard to play against a varied defense--whales, bombers, mirandas and biplanes all make life quite difficult.

I think slowing down planes would be a dreary method of encouraging passing--how about a momentary reduction in armor? Now, this isn't going to help explodets and bombers score more, but really I think if they are, something's wrong. They are plane killin' planes, and I agree that there should be some structure and specialization in the lineup.

As a proud Ramblin' Wreck myself, I completely agree with the football analogy--a good option lineup is very hard to defend. I think the game is loopy-heavy because between the two demo options, loopy is clearly better for scoring than the bomber...and really, that's what noobs want to do, score the ball (like in 3rd grade soccer). As the game and the players mature, I think we'll see a trend towards the more effective 4 or 5 plane lineup.

[OjM]

Originally Posted by Wintegral

Here you say yourself that it's useful when you need to get through a horde of enemies. If the other team is playing well, then you should never win when hopelessly outnumbered. Also, the problem with the passing was the 'randa self pass. Loopys passing to themselves really isn't op. After all, you can't do it anywhere like the 'randa.

No, more like getting around them by going fast from bottom. And yes, I know randa does it better, but I'm just saying that those bouncyrules and 2sec rules would suck a lot.

Originally Posted by Wintegral

Sounds like you're not playing against very competent people. If you're making goals without even trying, then your enemy isn't trying to kill you hard enough or is just bad at it.

True. Haven't been in too many good matches. By not trying I'm not saying that I'm playing with my hands on my back, but that I'm not really going for goals with miranda. Just when I get the ball and see the opportunity.

Originally Posted by Wintegral

You say it yourself, "getting to goal needs speed." If you used all your energy getting over then it's unlikely that your friendly neighborhood bomber or whatever could have gotten there in time.

Maybe everyone should not be running with the ball and trust the defence? So they could be situationed better. It's ok if they are not there the same time, if they are just coming there and could like, get the ball when I'm passing from under the goal in mayhem2 or something.

Originally Posted by Wintegral

Yeah, but if you fly ahead nothing's going to be able to keep up with you save another loopy, which can indeed kill a whale. This sounds more like a statement saying teamwork helps (it always does) rather than a reason loopy isn't dominant.

Others kill it better. There should always be defence, so loopiegroup would have hard time clearing those bombers, randas and whales. They can kill, but it's slow.

Originally Posted by Wintegral

This is true, and the problem isn't that people only play loopy but that it is dominant. Sure, you could have one Explo on goal but what reason do you have to not staff your team with nothing else but loopys? They'd be aggressive enough to keep the ball in the center. Preparing for defense by loading down on bombers and such would hurt your offense and would still end up with the enemy scoring, just it would take longer. You'd be setting yourself up for failure as they'd be too slow with the ball.

Why is there no really succesful ball clan around only loopies? Like they said, {ball} did try and it didn't go so well.

Originally Posted by Wintegral

Well, Loopys are easy to kill if they stay still, but they're fast. Once again it sounds like you're talking about scoring solo, which should be hard.

Well, when I play public, I often score solo, which is sad. That's why I'm calling the teamwork here. If it worked, there would be no reason for this talk. Bomber would not hurt offence too much, buttgun is great when they are chased and it can clear the goal with bombs.

Originally Posted by Wintegral

What does score "better" mean? A score is a score and if you can get to the goal before the defense, you win plain and simple. See, there's the problem. Sure, other planes are more survivable when they get in range of the goal but loopys will get there first. Further, they could easily outrun non-loopys.

Better means less failing, i.e. better goals/tries ratio. Loopy gets there first, not a chance for a shot, bomber arrives, pass and goal.

Originally Posted by Wintegral

Overall, you say that non-loopys can be useful. This is true. But wouldn't having another loopy instead be even more useful? (save the case with an Explo goalie) Building up a strong defense with slow planes makes your team slower all around, which makes scoring harder and therefore your team becomes worse.

I'm saying there needs to be a balanced team. There needs to be enough killing power too. You are saying that loopie gets there first and makes the goal, but when playing on higher levels, there is supposed to be defence, so it's a lot harder. Then loopy should be more in the role of advancing, and others would make better scoring/clearing guys, but currently this does not work, because there are no high level games yet. No league, no ballclanmatches, etc... There's no need for 5 handlers + goalie. 2-3 would do just fine with some firepowered addition. Second defending whale could lay mines on tubes on mayhems and mine near the bottom on snow for example. That would cost me a lot of goals too.

[tgleaf]

This is true, and the problem isn't that people only play loopy but that it is dominant. Sure, you could have one Explo on goal but what reason do you have to not staff your team with nothing else but loopys? They'd be aggressive enough to keep the ball in the center. Preparing for defense by loading down on bombers and such would hurt your offense and would still end up with the enemy scoring, just it would take longer. You'd be setting yourself up for failure as they'd be too slow with the ball.

[ASIDE: I don't know if you've seen OjM play, but he's not scoring against weak players, he's scoring against the best ballers in the game. He knows what he's talking about (obviously, you can agree or disagree with his ideas, which is fine).]

The problem with an all-loopy team is that good players can juke a good loopy/bomber/miranda, but a mine is really hard to fake out -- though I've seen it done. A whale is really useful at goal (and elsewhere, as OjM alluded to).

Also, hardwalls should be the only mode in ball. Loopies suck there more, because they crash a lot (or I just suck again). It's sad seeing all ballgames played with bouncy.

Here I have to disagree, OjM. I would love to see all hard wall servers for ball (even though I'm still learning to fly around them!), but it would kill the prospects of new demo players buying the game. Altitude was frustrating enough to learn with bouncy walls... I kept crashing all the time, what with foreign maps, thermo, and mines. I think the admins are wise to keep many of the public servers as bouncy.

--tgleaf

[Wintegral]

I do admit, I had missed the point about {ball} trying 5 loopys, but I still say that I'm not convinced that a mode that requires half of a team to be one plane is truly balanced.
I haven't seen him play, no, just he was saying that he's getting goals without even having to go for them, which seemed pretty odd.
I'm not saying that team loopy takes the cup, but that it seems that having a high proportion of loopys seems to be the only viable strategy.

[tgleaf]

Originally Posted by wiseguy

I think slowing down planes would be a dreary method of encouraging passing--how about a momentary reduction in armor?

Now that's one idea I could get behind. Encourage passing, but keep the game fast and fun. How many times have I scored while smoking? If I couldn't take hits, I'd have to get rid of the ball. Who would I pass to? A loopy. So it doesn't solve that problem, but it alleviates some of the showboat stuff that happens in ball games that makes the other planes feel inferior. That and it contributes to making ball more of a team game.

Any thoughts, Maimer?

[wiseguy]

I think it would also encourage passing mid-court, not just at the goals. When you saw enemy planes, you wouldn't want to be caught holding the ball, or you'd get shot down! Making the ball carriers easier to kill would also increase turnovers, which I think is a lot of the fun.

It could also lead to some interesting strategies (which I will hereby take credit for inventing, if this update is made): pass the ball to the goalie or defender trying to stop your scoring drive to make him easier to kill, and try to finish the job and get the ball back before he passes to a fast teammate! Using the ball as a weapon, I like it

[OjM]

Originally Posted by Wintegral

I do admit, I had missed the point about {ball} trying 5 loopys, but I still say that I'm not convinced that a mode that requires half of a team to be one plane is truly balanced.
I haven't seen him play, no, just he was saying that he's getting goals without even having to go for them, which seemed pretty odd.
I'm not saying that team loopy takes the cup, but that it seems that having a high proportion of loopys seems to be the only viable strategy.

Well, they could try making every plane similar, would that be fine with you? Then no plane would be better than any other in any game! Loopy does fine with ball, yes. They say biplane, which people seem to dismiss in ball, does well with bombing. Randa is great with 1v1 or sometimes beating the odds with 1v4 (there are some amazing people doing amazing things), bomber does ffa and tdm well...

I also said that there should always be defence, which isn't what's going on now. I get ball with randa, go for a place I often shoot with loopy, and shoot and goal BECAUSE there is no damned defence. There's no way I'm getting to goal with randa because I can't handle it well and my chance getting goals is that there is no defence whatsoever. I usually just play defence somewhere between goal and middleground killing people with randa myself and only try to goal when I have to.

EDIT: Armor reduction makes more passing? I don't think so. People that play ball well pass when they see fit anyway, I trust them. And others don't pass even when there's a missile coming and they smoke bad. I say goalie defends well enough against many loopygoals as they often shoot before seeing the goal when they know there's no goalie anyway. I know where to shoot from in mayhem2 and darkwar so I often do that and usually score. If there was goalie there...

It's that people aren't teams on public servers, so there are no clear roles. If there are 5 loopies who don't want to be a goalie, what can one do? We really need to wait for high level ballclanaction to see if loopies really rule as much as people say.

[tgleaf]

Originally Posted by OjM

...there are no high level games yet. No league, no ballclanmatches, etc...

{ICE} vs. {ball}, Saturday 12/19 @ 9:00pm Pacific. Battle of the Ballers (our first clan match). Stay tuned!

Second defending whale could lay mines on tubes on mayhems and mine near the bottom on snow for example. That would cost me a lot of goals too.

Don't give away all of our secrets! jk... Harm, you reading this?

--tgleaf

{ball} --> http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1744

[tgleaf]

Originally Posted by wiseguy

It could also lead to some interesting strategies (which I will hereby take credit for inventing, if this update is made): pass the ball to the goalie or defender trying to stop your scoring drive to make him easier to kill, and try to finish the job and get the ball back before he passes to a fast teammate! Using the ball as a weapon, I like it

That's my move, wise. Did you invent that? Best way to kill a miranda in a ball game is to pass the ball to him and then shoot. Works almost every time.

Ooh... secrets being spilled.

[Wintegral]

Originally Posted by OjM

Well, they could try making every plane similar, would that be fine with you? Then no plane would be better than any other in any game! Loopy does fine with ball, yes. They say biplane, which people seem to dismiss in ball, does well with bombing. Randa is great with 1v1 or sometimes beating the odds with 1v4 (there are some amazing people doing amazing things), bomber does ffa and tdm well...

No, I'm not about making all the planes similar. Though, now that you bring up TDM all the planes are useful. It's just that in TDM all the planes seem to have more uses than in ball.

[Deathblade]

As a near exclusive whaler...I say bring more Loopies.

[arty]

it seems like most of the discussion is from the point of the football map. its nothing but open space which is just better for loopies. all the other maps are ripe for all the other planes to impose there will.

No one here i think feels that biplanes and marandas cannot hold their own in ball so i will only talk about whale and bomber.

On darkwater they can own the center of the bord and the goal area if there are more than one. whales are great in both mayham maps same mid to goal area especially themo even on bouncy servers. bombers work well on mayham 2 but not as well mayham 1 just too many escape routs(or i cannot make it work better than 90% goal defense.) The two cave like maps(srry i dont know their names) are so hard to score on with competent whales and bombers controlling the center and rear. The same is true on core and the woods which are pretty much tdm with a ball.

when there are more than one of these "support planes" on maps other than football one of them should push foward towards goal when ball is inrout to the oppents zone. A team with a whale or bomber in the oponents goal usually scores. if their team does not score they wreak havoc, die and respwn near their goal faster than if you flew back.

to recap i believe all planes play serious role on all maps except football which is nothing but a sprint and the favorite map of most noobs because bad plane control does not really hurt as much. The bomber in my opinion is the least effective in ball but that might be because i am trying to becom a ball playing bomber and i suck at it so far.

[tgleaf]

Originally Posted by arty

it seems like most of the discussion is from the point of the football map. its nothing but open space which is just better for loopies.

Did you confuse the football analogy with the football map? We were talking about the former.

=P

[arty]

Originally Posted by tgleaf

Did you confuse the football analogy with the football map? We were talking about the former.

=P

No. In my opinion the football map is the only map where the slower planes really have a problem being more usufull. The spawning position alone makes the faster planes better to get back on d. In my mind all the complaints fall short on the other maps. I guess i was projecting that opinion of mine on the whole conversation. My bad