Recomendations

[leiter]

Alright, here are my suggestions

Reduce the plane size (and missile and whatnot size) clearly this would be difficult, and it is nice to see the details on the plane, but the largeness seems to distract from the action more then it adds. Making the planes smaller would mean

1.) planes means more planes on a screen ie bigger battles
2.) planes means you can see further and thus react more quickly
3.) would make the game seem less anime and bubbly
4.) this will also make the planes seam sleeker
5.) put more emphasis act-react element from the first game (because you can see things coming).
6.) reduce the chaoticness of everything.

think of the other good side view games, soldat, worms, mario, sonic, defender, the 'old altitude' etc... small small small

Make all planes travel faster, and reduce turn radius
Increase speed of missiles/ bullets to a lesser extent

Ammunition should be used and regenerate slower

Make afterburners a separate key
Make afterburners use a separate fuel
Make afterburners more powerful and weaker for various planes

Make the attack effects less obnoxious (Miranda especially)

Improve the sound effects.

Planes balancing issues

Biplane seems a bit underpowered; maybe make the primary gun use less ammo and more powerful
Miranda – make the weapon weaker
And bring back the old Miranda
Explodet- allow explodet do drop more mines, make mines smaller and don’t allow mines to home as far.

Graphics
Other then the biplane (and its gun), the planes and missiles seem too anime.
make the planes (except miranda) look more contemporary ex:
Make the explodet look more like a leer jet/concord (the bomber and explodet especially look like flying bricks)
make miranda look more like a spaceship.

[DiogenesDog]

Going to just dump my feedback here since I always feel weird starting a new thread for this kind of thing:

• The Explodet mines are awful large and hard to avoid now... maybe shrink it or make just the upper part non-collidable?
• In Lost City, the background scaffolding on the far left building has a spire that looks collidable for some reason. It's not breaking any of the rules, but it sort of tricks your brain for some reason... I think it's just sticking out too far from the main building, which screws with your head. Could use a minor tweak.
• Explodet mines probably track players too far.
• New bouncy wall is hilarious/fun. Also, if you keep some bounce on this thing, it's a great opportunity for giving it a cool appearance/sound fx that really make it stand out.
• I know a lot of people hate the randomness, but I actually thought the old woodstock was more fun than EMP.
• Mines shouldn't harm allies imo.
• The powerup reserve box would be easier to notice if it were moved to the upper left corner with the rest of the UI stuff.
• Big Bomb could stand to be slightly larger and with some extra decoration. Looks almost identical to normal Bomber bombs right now.
• EMP duration feels a little short. I'd also consider reducing the ammo cost slightly.
• Hard to tell, but Nuke AoE feels a little large.
• Would be nice to have an OFF option for textures for really crappy computers.
• Once clouds are more fully implemented, I think a nice way to show the player behind them without looking really ugly would be to just draw a green outline around his plane's sillhouette, but leave the rest obscured.

[leiter]

i agree with you about the mines. the emp definitely needs work. plus by the bird(woodstock) was cooler. Try pressing c, see if its anything like what your thinking about for the clouds.

[Ajplagge]

I think lots of the suggestions are spot on.

Make just the mine parts collidable.
Shrink planes 10-15%
EMP needs work and you need to be able to make explode when you want. Not a set distance.
Biplane 2ndry kickback is a little strong
Weaken bomber bombs blah blah blah

Afterburners still don't feel quite right.
-give them a separate power bar that has a set amount of power, refilled after landing, maybe when it is gone you can continue to use it at a cost to health or something.

Pickups/health
Only have planes drop pickups if they had them at time of death. I like the health bonus though I can see it getting ugly in a large game. Maybe make these options in mapmaker.

Art
The plane designs. I'm not sold on them, at first I thought I just needed time to get used to the change but now I'm not so sure. The grey team especially they seem a bit boring and indistinct, biplane especially.

Turrets look pretty bad when not on a flat surface. I'm hoping the bases and turrets will be customizable in the end?


All in all looks and plays good, just being critical.

[Blank]

I don't see why everyone wants to shrink planes. They seem fine to me. Overall, I'm more in favor of stop tweaking current planes and getting in missing features/new planes. I don't think current balance is so horribly out of whack that **** must change.

btw:

Only have planes drop pickups if they had them at time of death.

If you only drop pickups on death, and no one has them to start with, no one will ever drop anything :P Plus, most people burn pickups like instantly/near instantly anyway :[

[Ajplagge]

yah that was based on the thought there would be pickups of the olden days. Which I hope will be coming?

Are there going to be more planes? Because yeah good idea to get them all out there in some form first before doing little tweaks

[Vi*]

I don't want the size of individual things reduced, but I'd like to simply see more. Shrink the entire game.

Also, I agree that tweaking planes to be in a balance tailored to a specific map in a specific game mode is a bad plan.

[DiogenesDog]

Random feedback as of 6-06-08:

• Splash screen is nice, but the font is pretty bad. Assume this is a placeholder?
• Desktop icon is great
• Something maybe worth trying: add the British "target" flag/symbol to the side of the biplane. I tried it in photoshop, and it really added some character I thought. I realize it makes no sense to have every biplane be British, but it's aesthetically pleasing to me so meh.
• Big Bomb aoe seems a little large... hard to say.
• Miranda still seems overpowered, esp in larger games where you can hit mult opponents with your laser.
• I'd bump the respawn timer up 2 seconds. As-is, it's going to be hard to make defense really worthwhile.
• I'd also slow down the Big Bomb respawn a bit.
• Reducing turret hp would be nice, esp if we eventually get a way to repair them again (or they self heal).
• It'd be pretty hilarious if the wall could bounce back missiles / bombs, but probably a bad idea. :P
• Haven't played it myself really, but people seem to be avoiding the new Advanced City... maybe folks should chime in with why?
• On that note, I think narrowing (horizontally) the towers in normal Lost City would improve the map by giving ppl a little more breathing room to fight in.

[DiogenesDog]

Couple more things:

• When a guy requests to be friends, there's a little window that pops up int he lower right corner. Would be nice to be able to click this window directly to go to the yes/no dialog box.
• My perspective is wonky because of the whole 800x600 thing, but maybe reduce Miranda range a little?
• Bots should be added on a per-team basis, not by total # of players per server. Right now it'll add a bot to both sides even when the teams are lopsided.
• Just a minor aesthetic thing, but I don't like the health bar changing color as it drops. I realize it's a standard thing, but when you already have a red bar for throttle it seems weird somehow.
• Some kind of feedback on the plane for when you're stalling would be freaking awesome.
• After playing advanced city a bit, I'm going to agree that orig lost city is a little better.
• If maps are available, adding more maps to the server (or uh just more servers since map rotation isn't in yet) would be nice. Actually, I'll probably make a couple now that I'm back and have free time.

[DiogenesDog]

more:

• A nice feature to eventually add: allowing servers to designate themselves as Beginner, Casual, Intermediate, or Pro. This is, of course, assuming you're going to have a filter system in place eventually... but even if not, it'd be nice to help players of similar skill levels to find appropriate games.
• Adding a small "flicker" animation to the biplane propeller would be cool and probably relatively simple? Not sure how you have your animation stuff setup...
• Editor: Would be nice to move the set/unset textures out of the poly editor and into the right-click menu. This way you can mass-select stuff and apply the same texture to them all (useful for maps that use a lot of repeating textures.)
• Have you thought about using sound effects to provide feedback on engine state? What I'm thinking here is that you'd have a standard engine noise that woud be programmatically slowed down & deepened when you throttle down, and would stop entirely when you stall. Since one of the things people tend to have trouble with is tracking their exact throttle level and whether they're currently stalled, I think this could be pretty useful. The constant engine whirr might be annoying, but hrm... in the original Intellivision Biplanes I didn't mind it.

[Snowsickle]

Misc stuff:

Haven't played it myself really, but people seem to be avoiding the new Advanced City... maybe folks should chime in with why?

I think the server name is partially responsible here. "Advanced" implies that its a harder map designed more for veteran players and I think a lot of casual players may shy away from it despite the fact that it isn't really any harder to fly in. I personally like advanced lost city far more than the old one.

Agree with the bots being added on a per-team basis. They don't really do much but the constant health/powerups would definitely make 1v2 a bit easier. I would also like to see some kind of console command that will disable the bots, preferably one that doesn't require admin access. 1v1 duels end up being pretty boring with bots there to funnel health and powerups.

Also agree on the miranda laser thing. I don't think its actually overpowered, but it does a great job at stealing every kill in the general vicinity. I would suggest either having planes block the laser or having the laser significantly weaken as it passes through a plane.

In regards to the spawn time comment, I think its nice to spawn relatively fast in smaller games. However when you get 4-5+ people per team, I could see increasing the spawn time by a second or two just to cut down on the chaos and give people a chance to legitimately kill the other team and bomb the base.

[DiogenesDog]

Snow's post reminds me: there used to be a great feature where you'd get a respawn bonus if there were less people on your team in team games. Would be nice to see this return!

[Blank]

agreed on most. I think nerfing the Miranda laser would ultimately hurt it's playability. The thing is made out of paper. It is retard easy to kill steal with it but I don't think eliminating passing through planes will stop that.

Everything else I think I agree with.

BTW, need to add veteran status. I was thinking maybe have different upgrades or something based on the plane or # of stars but meh... Would be nice to have a plane get more ammo, faster speed/boost, or double powers or something but I dunno how to add that without making the star system needlessly complicated.

[DiogenesDog]

I don't think it would be that complicated/confusing if you just put it in the plane description. So like the Biplane might say:


A well-rounded basic dogfighter with extreme close range damage output.

Primary: Normal gun thingy
Secondary: Machine gun
Veteran Bonus: Improves machine gun fire rate and ammo efficiency


...or whatever. I guess new players won't be able to properly assess the threat a given veteran enemy plane has since they won't have it all memorized, but they wouldn't be able to do that due to inexperience anyway.

(Btw, not sure if I'm totally behind this idea, just saying that I don't think it would feel super complicated or anything.)

[tmm3k]

Originally Posted by DiogenesDog

Haven't played it myself really, but people seem to be avoiding the new Advanced City... maybe folks should chime in with why?

Well, the only thing that seems different about it is that there are now only two routes to the other side instead of three, because the middle tower is now taller. It's just harder to play like that.

[Snowsickle]

Personally I'm a fan of the old veteran system with each star being like a 3% damage boost or whatever.

Unique bonuses that apply to each plane would be pretty cool though, providing that they're all similarly useful.

[Snowsickle]

I know its quite obvious, but it would be nice if team-only powerups (bombs) had some kind of graphical difference. Some kind of silver or blue glow maybe, who knows. This would also be useful if maps started including other team-only powerup spawns.

[Blank]

Suggestion: Make powerups fired by bomber shoot behind it. I guess this only applies to the homing missile but uhhhh, kinda makes sense. It's usually a stupid idea to actually point a bomber at a guy but it's really the only reliable way to hit them with a homing missile. So make it shoot behind him.

[tmm3k]

Originally Posted by Blank

Suggestion: Make powerups fired by bomber shoot behind it. I guess this only applies to the homing missile but uhhhh, kinda makes sense. It's usually a stupid idea to actually point a bomber at a guy but it's really the only reliable way to hit them with a homing missile. So make it shoot behind him.

So long as homing missiles fired by a biplane stalls the biplane and homing missiles fired by an explodet need to be detonated by pressing S, sure.

[JamesTechno]

I would like to recommend a timer that counts down how much time is left in a deathmatch. I would also like Team Base Health meters on teh HUd to see just how much is left to go.

[leiter]

i like the idea of landing to refill ammo, ie each plane has 10 clips before they have to land. also brining back the old star system where each plane gets some kind of bonus when they become an ace sounds good. Also in terms of plane size, add a "mini-biplane" or whatever, and then the sever could decide which planes were permitted.

[DiogenesDog]

• When I'm typing my login on the first screen, I tend to hit Tab after typing in my pw so that I can then hit the spacebar to check the Remember Password box. When I do this, it works fine, but you can't tell that the Remember Password box is selected.
• Miranda needs to be renamed - copyright infringement!

And some more detailed feedback on Advanced Lost City:

After playing it a bit more, I do definitely prefer the extra breathing room of Advanced, but I really miss the top route from the older version. Losing this top route makes bomb carries less fun and more predictable, as well as making the map feel more chokepointy. It also slows down the average perceived plane speed a bit, since you're spending more time climbing to gain altitude as you come out of a tunnel and less time swooping down from the top. While all this has some effect on balance (Explodets get better, Bombers are weaker on offense, etc.), the more important thing for me is that it just feels a lot more static to me. It constricts the level flow a lot, and I think I preferred the old flow better.

As for solutions, I guess that's harder. If I had to give up one of the three routes, I'd toss the bottom one. It's a freaking death trap anyway. Otherwise, have you tried just a more open version of the original three route setup? I think that's the main problem it had (too short horizontally) - seems worth a shot at least.

EDIT: Alternatively, you could always claim that the Miranda was named after this sweet fake movie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwPD1dgj9Pk
I'm in it for about 2 seconds as the cop that gets head at the beginning and then electrocuted later. Bummer that the uncensored version isn't online anymore tho.

[tmm3k]

I don't think Miranda is copyrighted. There's stuff like Miranda IM, Miranda Rights, plus it's an actual name for women. With the old version of Biplanes, with the Miranda looking pretty much like it does in Trek, I could see your point. But the current Miranda looks nothing like the Trek version.

[Snowsickle]

Pretty much agree with Dio. I prefer advanced, but neither of the maps are ideal. Simple is so tight that maneuvering in the bottom half of the map requires a lot of down-throttling to even make the turns at all, which makes it even harder to gain an altitude advantage once you're to the other side. Advanced does have the problem of having the choke feeling, though it's open enough that it's usually possible to get through anyway. It kind of promotes some sort of teamwork in that you may need to have a few planes crossing over at once to get by a dedicated explodet camper.

My solution would be to add the top pathway again but, in the fashion of everyones favorite oldschool map, add something to the top of the screen on either side to prevent bombers from flying in a straight line across the map. Though honestly, I'm not sure it's even necessary with the new turrets. Alternatively the top pathway could be added slightly lower with a half an inch or so of terrain at the top of the map. I would make the top pathway fairly tight, so that emphasis is still more on the other two, but it exists as an alternative. Just enough to make bombers actually require some input to make it to the other side. The main thing is to keep the scaled-up feel that separates it from simple lost city.

[DiogenesDog]

• Hotkeys in the main menu don't work. Probably just not implemented yet?
• When a team game is over, the winning team's base should stay hurt until the next match starts. That way you can check to see how close the game was. Also, it'd be nice if the score didn't reset until the next match too.
• I realize that Lam is concentrating programming time on other **** first, but I'd love to see some experimentation with different afterburner keys (space bar, double tap, etc.). Those wouldn't take any real programming time, and I think it's worth a shot now so ppl will have feedback ready for when he actually gets a chance to work on the core gameplay stuff again.
• Loopy feels pretty weak to me now. I think a few things are conspiring to make this the case: 1) no arrows for planes. he really benefited from shot spamming off screen. 2) woodstock was more powerful than emp. 3) a few other planes received buffs, while he's been left behind. 4) less open maps really don't benefit him.
  
  As for solutions... hrm. You could get unconventional and give him a special passive "radar" ability that gives just Loopy the off screen plane arrows. Might be neat (but frustrating for other players?) I'd love to see old Woodstock functionality return, although I wouldn't want it to be limited to just one... the nature of the plane already means that it's going to do less well in larger games, there's no need to make that worse. Maybe make him even faster/more agile or just give his main attack a little more damage to straight up make him more powerful? The one thing I would NOT want to see unless completely necessary is more health... the more differentiated the planes are the better!

[tmm3k]

The only two fixes Loopy really needs is a slightly longer main weapon and EMP range and the ability to detonate the EMP early.

[DiogenesDog]

Hm, I really disagree. Main weapon range is already pretty damn long. Usually some obstruction blocks you before you'd reach max range anyway, so it wouldn't even have much effect.

Wouldn't want the ability to detonate early because that mechanic is already used on the Explodet. I'd rather see the EMP having a unique feel that isn't like another weapon.

& actually, I think it might be worth trying the EMP with _decreased_ range (esp if the aoe is bumped up a tiny bit, but that might not be necessary). Right now it's at this awkward range where you rarely get to use non-direct hits. Either someone's coming at you, in which case they close the distance too fast, or you're chasing them, which usually happens at very short ranges. The only times I find myself really using non-direct hits is if I shoot a wall next to another player - and then half the time I overestimate the aoe and still don't hit them. :P But a very short ranged version is much more likely to hit in both of those common situations.

[Snowsickle]

I feel like loopy is one of the harder planes to deal with if someone is good at maneuvering. I suppose it may be very slightly weaker than a lot of the other planes, but I feel like it competes with many of the better planes. If anything, I just feel that emp should be changed significantly. It is more useful than most people give it credit for, but I feel like something a bit more lethal like woodstock would still benefit it more.

[Karl]

Originally Posted by DiogenesDog

[LIST][*]Hotkeys in the main menu don't work. Probably just not implemented yet?

huh? Alt+<underlined letter> are the hotkeys...

[*]When a team game is over, the winning team's base should stay hurt until the next match starts. That way you can check to see how close the game was. Also, it'd be nice if the score didn't reset until the next match too.

will also be in the scoreboard

woodstock owns noobs really bad. that's my biggest issue with it changing your turning and/or stalling you.

[DiogenesDog]

I don't think anyone's going to know to hit alt. The standard (as much as there is one) is just the letter with no other key pressed... any reason why you decided to go another route?

[Snowsickle]

woodstock owns noobs really bad. that's my biggest issue with it changing your turning and/or stalling you.

I just don't see why this is a problem. Theres a difference between making a game easy to learn and avoiding adding anything at all that requires some learning to properly deal with. Woodstock is a fairly simple concept - avoid slowing down while its on you and the knockback becomes fairly irrelevant. As far as games go, altitude has an extremely small learning curve. Things like woodstock allow the game to have a genuine gap between a new player and a veteran, which is actually a good thing. It's going to be more stimulating for a new player to have to learn to deal with woodstock than to have something that requires no learning whatsoever. One of the things I actually liked was that woodstock required constant adjustment to deal with, rather than a simple dethrottle like emp.

Just trying to discuss, hope this doesn't sound too much like I'm telling people what to do :E

[DiogenesDog]

Another thing worth mentioning is that the game will theoretically (unless it's a huge failure) have noob-friendly servers after release, whereas now it's basically 90% guys that have been playing for YEARS. While there are things in the old game that were hard for new players to adjust to (runway, maybe woodstock apparently?), I think that those wouldn't actually be very frustrating if they were still able to get out there and shoot some guys down instead of dying in 0.5 sec.

I dunno, I think when seeing how noobs react to the game it's important to keep in mind that the environment for them will be VERY different in the real thing. Not only will they be able to train with non-veterans, but they'll have a tutorial beforehand where you can include anything difficult like landing/woody. Right now new players are just being thrown into shark infested waters right away and they have to sink or swim, which I'm sure is incredibly frustrating.

[tmm3k]

Originally Posted by DiogenesDog

Hm, I really disagree. Main weapon range is already pretty damn long. Usually some obstruction blocks you before you'd reach max range anyway, so it wouldn't even have much effect.

The main weapon range for the Loopy seems to be about a quarter of the screen, with the EMP range being slightly less than that.

Wouldn't want the ability to detonate early because that mechanic is already used on the Explodet. I'd rather see the EMP having a unique feel that isn't like another weapon.

The old Loopy with Woodstock had that option, and it would make Loopy slightly better. Many times I've missed someone with the EMP, but there's no way to fire another one because the first one I fired is still going. Also by detonating the EMP early, one could afford to be slightly less accurate with it.

Originally Posted by Snowsickle

It is more useful than most people give it credit for, but I feel like something a bit more lethal like woodstock would still benefit it more.

Yeah, Loopy's EMP tends to dominate Explodets. For one thing, it prevents them from laying mines. And many times while making a tight turn, I've been EMPed and end up crashing.

[Karl]

Originally Posted by DiogenesDog

I don't think anyone's going to know to hit alt. The standard (as much as there is one) is just the letter with no other key pressed... any reason why you decided to go another route?

the standard is always Alt+key ... that's how windows has done it forever... that's how warcraft 3 does it. I duno what you're smoking.

[DiogenesDog]

I think I must be living in some kind of crazy alternate universe or something now. On my screen (and I'm not on low res anymore), Loopy's main attack goes much further than that, like probably a good 2x screen length.

And War3/SC's main menu hotkeys are just the letter. I guess like office type applications use alt+key, but that's kind of a different environment...

[Karl]

Originally Posted by DiogenesDog

And War3/SC's main menu hotkeys are just the letter. I guess like office type applications use alt+key, but that's kind of a different environment...

Oh, i guess they set it up so only if you have a text field focused do you have to use Alt+key. I'm so used to holding alt i never even knew that about war3 O_o.

[Blank]

Originally Posted by tmm3k

The old Loopy with Woodstock had that option, and it would make Loopy slightly better. Many times I've missed someone with the EMP, but there's no way to fire another one because the first one I fired is still going. Also by detonating the EMP early, one could afford to be slightly less accurate with it.

Blowing up woodstock early would just recall him. That's it.

Anyway, I'm still of the opinion that it's not really broken so why waste time fixing it.

[skywalker]

Originally Posted by Snowsickle

As far as games go, altitude has an extremely small learning curve.

Agree with the rest except this part.

[DiogenesDog]

Some random feedback from most recent patch:

• I'd like to see powerups spawn less. They're all pretty powerful, so it'd be nice if they were rarer.
• Editor bug: the vertical coordinates (maybe horiz, didn't check) in the editor are different when you're in Edit Hull mode compared to the normal view mode.
• I like the new thing where unavailable UI options are grayed out.
• The Loopy reticule is great. Actually, this + the EMP buff really help. You cripple people harder and then waste less ammo shooting to take them down.
• EMP range still feels awkward. I think I'd rather see this either be shorter (so it's easier to hit ppl with midair detonation) or just bump it to equal normal shot range.
• Going all bomber still seems pretty effective. This will change a lot if the environment changes (stars to improve defense, for instance), so not sure what to recommend... depends on what goes on with the game.
• I forgot to accept a friend request and then completely forgot about it. Would be nice to get a reminder each time you log in until you accept/decline.

[tmm3k]

Originally Posted by DiogenesDog

Some random feedback from most recent patch:

• I'd like to see powerups spawn less. They're all pretty powerful, so it'd be nice if they were rarer.

Agreed. Maybe introduce anti-blanks into the mix, so that useful powerups only show up 75% of the time.

• Editor bug: the vertical coordinates (maybe horiz, didn't check) in the editor are different when you're in Edit Hull mode compared to the normal view mode.

Not sure what you mean, but when you place a new hull point, that is considered point 0,0 for the polygon.

• Going all bomber still seems pretty effective. This will change a lot if the environment changes (stars to improve defense, for instance), so not sure what to recommend... depends on what goes on with the game.

The turrets have a big blind spot on both versions of Lost City, and bombers can basically lob bombs into the general base area without getting hit by the turrets. A squad of bombers can't last more than 5 seconds when they are directly over the base and being fired on by turrets. So there either needs to be an increased turret range, or some sort of obstacle hanging from the ceiling so that bombers choke up more. It's not a problem with the bomber being overpowered, bombs are supposed to damage the base. But if you remember back to grasslands, there were those two rocks hanging down in front of each base to prevent stuff like that.