tbd_chess

[silent skies]

Version 1.2 released. A major update! Please check the first post for details.

[Blind Pilot]

I got in an explodet and flew around for a while. It's a huge improvement. I like the turret placement and the half-pawn octagon thingy change especially.
It's amazing what a difference a few subtle changes make.


Looks better. I think the simpler design of the structures is a good choice. They don't blend in to the background at all.

The one thing I have to suggest is maybe tweaking the background, chessboard color now that you've changed other parts. That's a personal preference on my part, though.

Well done.

[silent skies]

Well, the reason I changed the pieces color was because they were too similar to the chessboard color and blending in too much. I personally liked the aesthetics of the previous versions better (green/gray pieces to fit a green/gray board) but everyone was complaining about the contrast, even after I'd lightened the background and darkened the pieces numerous times).

[silent skies]

Bomb Dojo 1 has the new version. ty krawz

[Herodadotus]

I think the new graphics really help. I really like the layout of the map, and I've had a really fun time playing it.

[silent skies]

Okay, Sins and a few others gave me some further editing ideas, some of which I like, some of which I'm kinda on the fence about. I need (a lot of) opinions on the matter(s).



1) Flatten the tip of the pawn triangle (w/o moving pawns) and place a single turret where the 2 are now. Reason: simplify things. My reason against: The new, single turret won't be able to partially cover behind the base, like the bottom turret of the 2 is now.
2) Move the pawn on what was the pawn octagon to between where the bishops are now. Reason: current setup is very friendly to thermo-whale.
3) Remove powerup (reducing to 4 PUs on the map) and place a grotto-style turret there. Reason: too many powerups as it is.
4) Move the top bishop to where the turret at the spawn is, and place said turret on top of the bishop, exposing it more and giving it a far better firing angle. Reason: Open up top more, make spawn-turret more effective.
5) Spread out the two side objects in the top-mid cluster. Reason: current setup is like a randa fortress.

Also, I need a general consensus on whether or not this will work better as neutral or teambombs. Opinions so far seem split on the issue, so I might publish 2 versions for testing....

[Kuja900]

Can someone please adopt this project? Silence quit and this map had potential imo.

[silent skies]

I've come back to alty because apparently I don't know what's good for me :| I missed reverse whale.

I still have the materials from before, so I'll try to finish this up, if people are actually willing to, y'know, give it the ladder-level testing that it badly needs. Getting people to test it before felt like pulling teeth...

[Evan20000]

You're back! :O

Readd me ingame, I'll test it when you need testers.

[[Y]]

Originally Posted by Evan20000

You're back! :O

Readd me ingame, I'll test it when you need testers.

Same^^^

New maps are always welcome.

[Kuja900]

Oh thank god I was so upset to see all this effort go to waste, welcome back!

[silent skies]

Well, the map editor no longer works for me, and I have no real idea why. None of the functions in the editor work, and I can literally do absolutely nothing with it anymore. lamster says 'video compatibility problem' but I hadn't updated any drivers since after I left, so... I have no idea when, or even if, I'll have a functioning editor again. I've had the updated art files for the next version sitting on my desktop for a week now and can't do anything with them.

I'm probably going to need to ask someone who's familiar with the map editor to put the latest (and hopefully final, but who knows) version of tbd_chess together for me.

The map geometry would be simple. There are three files, labeled 'marble background', 'objects layer' and 'shadow layer' that are all the same size (in terms of # of pixels), so all that would need to be done is to place them literally one on top of the other - one in a background layer, the other in the game layer, and the last in a foreground layer, and everything would then fit into place. As for turrets/bases/PUs/spawns, I would create a mock-up JPEG detailing where those would go, and you could work from that.

If anyone's willing to help me out here with this, let me know.

[silent skies]

So in a moment of 'what the hell, why not' I decided to try running the editor by right-clicking and selecting 'run as system administrator'.

...and it worked.

Don't ask me why, because I have no ****in' clue. But I have a functioning editor again.

I'll have the next version of chess out within a day or two.

[silent skies]

And 'by in a day or two' I apparently meant 'in an hour or two.'

Here is version 1.3 of tbd_chess:

http://www.qfpost.com/download.do?ge...7b30736ffa59fd

Changelog is as discussed in a previous post of mine:

1) Flatten the tip of the pawn triangle (w/o moving pawns) and place a single turret where the 2 are now. Reason: simplify things. My reason against: The new, single turret won't be able to partially cover behind the base, like the bottom turret of the 2 is now.
2) Move the pawn on what was the pawn octagon to between where the bishops are now. Reason: current setup is very friendly to thermo-whale.
3) Remove powerup (reducing to 4 PUs on the map) and place a grotto-style turret there. Reason: too many powerups as it is.
4) Move the top bishop to where the turret at the spawn is, and place said turret on top of the bishop, exposing it more and giving it a far better firing angle. Reason: Open up top more, make spawn-turret more effective.
5) Spread out the two side objects in the top-mid cluster. Reason: current setup is like a randa fortress.

It's almost midnight and I'm a bit too tired to make a proper update post, will do so after classes tomorrow, but feel free to download the new version and tell me what you think, please.

[silent skies]

Red map objects were accidentally placed on layer behind map objects, resulting in turrets having their health bars covered up (but not affecting gameplay at all). I just released v1.31 which fixes this problem.

http://www.qfpost.com/download.do?ge...0520d1f13cfd61

First post of thread also updated.

[Evan20000]

Screenies please.

[silent skies]

First page has the usual mock-up screenie, if that's what you mean. I have problems getting the editor to export screenshots so that's the best I can manage.

Here's what I posted on the first page:

[Evan20000]

Looks really nice. I don't see any glaring issues with the map. All the bomb running routes look viable, but the low still seems to be the best one.

Also, my browser wasn't loading the pic in the OP. Sorry about making you reupload. =\

[silent skies]

Well, I think most maps have a 'best' route or a 'worst' route. The top route in Heights always feels better to me, as does the middle/top route in Core (as opposed to the low route in Core).

Besides, the best routes are always the ones people defend first and foremost, right?

[Evan20000]

Well, the low route looks a little overly powerful because of a few things I can see at a glance:

1. Only 1 turret stopping a reach around, and 2 stopping a conventional bomb. None stopping a lob over the top of the King, but I doubt that would work well against a serious team.

2. The attackers get a free powerup under the king (what I'm anticipating to be a popular route/flank).

3. The spawn is really far away from the low route.

Just some things to consider. I can't really say what/if anything needs changing until we test it more. Let me know what you think.

[mikesol]

Btw this is up on prose sin - if you wanted to try it out later

[Evan20000]

Will do.

Did you give admins the assign team command back yet? I've never abused on unwilling victims. >.<

[silent skies]

@ mikesol

There was a mild problem with v1.3, in that the red team's objects (turrets, etc.) were rendering behind the map objects. I fixed that in v1.31 which is the download link on the main post.

Doesn't really affect the gameplay at all, though, just an FYI.

[silent skies]

Originally Posted by Evan20000

Well, the low route looks a little overly powerful because of a few things I can see at a glance:

1. Only 1 turret stopping a reach around, and 2 stopping a conventional bomb. None stopping a lob over the top of the King, but I doubt that would work well against a serious team.

2. The attackers get a free powerup under the king (what I'm anticipating to be a popular route/flank).

3. The spawn is really far away from the low route.

Just some things to consider. I can't really say what/if anything needs changing until we test it more. Let me know what you think.

Well, it does need testing from serious teams, either in ladder (unlikely) or top clans trying a bunch of serious scrims on it.

Balancing/tweaking thus far has been only based on people looking at the map and saying 'I think this will happen if you do this' or 'This will be a problem here' or 'Try putting this here', which is all well and good, but I think there's been enough of that by itself, and it's time to get some real balance testing. Also, please keep in mind that a lot of the advice I get is contradictory. For every snippet of advice saying 'place a turret here' I get other opinions of where it should go, some people say don't add any more turrets, some people say take more turrets out, etc. etc., all without seriously testing out how it works in a real game with real teams.

I'm willing to keep plucking away at this until it's 'just right', but everyone's 'just right' is different from everyone else's 'just right', and it's hard to get a general opinion.

[Evan20000]

I agree. I think organized scrims should be hosted on here for a little while.

[XX1]

I had a chance to play this map and here are my thoughts...
The turrets don't have much affect - people can sit right outside of the base not getting hurt.
the map is a bit vertical but i don't think its too bad.
Games may seem like they would last not very long like middle ground but more like asteroids - fair play time, the bases remind me of scrapyard where the base is open all around (this is what will keep the games more on the short side because of the bombing routes and the easy lobbing to the base) as well as asteroids.... Interesting.
the bomb spawn seems like it should be pushed a bit back so it doesn't interfere with other planes landing to heal.
Defense- may be a little tough due to the only defense protecting the base from horizontal attacks would be the King chess piece and its platform. Because the king piece ( this applies with many other pieces as well ) their a bit slim so loopies emp/acid will slip through the objects and stun/poison them. +1 for the Defense in that case...
Chess has about 6 decent chokes for bomber spam and whale spam and they are all in the center of the map. It is fairly open and i would say favors light planes loopy/biplane. the top seems to be where the sniping randas would hide, because of the excellent cover plus power up sitting up there.
An ultracap randa with bomb can zoom(hold up key entire time) from his base to opponents and hit the base in about 7~ seconds which is pretty fast(if the shortest route is taken.

Main points :
More turrets out of base
make map a bit longer horizontal wise and not as high
bomb spawn needs to be moved
Make easier to defend base.

-XX2

[silent skies]

the bomb spawn seems like it should be pushed a bit back so it doesn't interfere with other planes landing to heal.

Good point.

Chess has about 6 decent chokes for bomber spam and whale spam and they are all in the center of the map. It is fairly open and i would say favors light planes loopy/biplane. the top seems to be where the sniping randas would hide, because of the excellent cover plus power up sitting up there.

So it favors ... everything?

An ultracap randa with bomb can zoom(hold up key entire time) from his base to opponents and hit the base in about 7~ seconds which is pretty fast(if the shortest route is taken.

I 'tested' (i.e. counted "one-one thousand, two-one thousand...") this on asteroids, core (base to base) and cave, and the distances for an ultracap randa w/ bomb in those maps is about 7-9 seconds for each.

It sounds dramatic and small when you state it like that, but you have to remember that a bomb carrier is going to thinking about all the various angles he's gonna get attacked by. It's not very often that he's just gonna hold up continuously until he gets to the base, and if he does it's not gonna be very often that he's successful in doing so, at least not according to our experience with other maps. How it plays out on Chess needs to be ... tested.

[XX1]

Originally Posted by silent skies

Good point.



So it favors ... everything?



I 'tested' (i.e. counted "one-one thousand, two-one thousand...") this on asteroids, core (base to base) and cave, and the distances for an ultracap randa w/ bomb in those maps is about 7-9 seconds for each.

It sounds dramatic and small when you state it like that, but you have to remember that a bomb carrier is going to thinking about all the various angles he's gonna get attacked by. It's not very often that he's just gonna hold up continuously until he gets to the base, and if he does it's not gonna be very often that he's successful in doing so, at least not according to our experience with other maps. How it plays out on Chess needs to be ... tested.

Hey well...you said you needed feed back, like no one gave you much stuff to work with so i decided to test the map out a bit....

[silent skies]

I'm thankful for feedback, of course. The bit about bomb placement was quite helpful and something I hadn't thought of before, and will fix in a later version.

But as I stated I'm in need of it being playtested in an actual, competitive game setting: scrimmages, ladder, etc., before I can go any further in the tweaking. I've been tweaking little bits here and there for upwards of three months (I started making Chess in July) trying to get it just right, all based on similar feedback, but no actual game testing.

At this point, opinions and feedback on almost every facet of the layout is split: too short, too long; too cramped, too spread out; too many turrets, not enough turrets; turret placement is fine, turret placement is weak; spawns should be moved, leave spawns where they are ... the list goes on, and is getting quite headache-inducing. Almost every change I make that pleases half the crowd is gonna piss the other half off, and vice versa, but none of these opinions seem to be based on testing, just conjecture... so it'd be nice if a large group of testers got together and tested it, so that they can hopefully agree on what the main issues with the map actually are, and then relay that info to me so I can improve the map that way.

Also, major changes to the geography require that I redo quite a bit of graphics each time, which has become quite a hassle. Much of this is to blame on some inefficiencies of my map-making process ... live and learn ... but it's not something I can undo at this point very easily. And to be honest, designing the map started being more frustrating than fun about two months ago ... I really want to get it out the door and call it 'done', but that's gonna require more cooperation than I seem to be getting...

[silent skies]

*bump*

I would mucho appreciate it if some clans could scrim on this map to give it some proper testing.

[NeneNene]

wow this map looks very detailed!!!! great work i would like to try it sometime

[mikesol]

Review:

1) The top lob is insane. There needs to be some cover for the base. The thing that currently block some lobs that has a turret and a pawn on it should extend over the base (not entirely but to cover a top lob).

2) Minor aesthetics change - the shadows on the king next to the base on the cross part of them are kind of weird and trippy.

3) Spawn points are too far away. Consider lowering them slightly.

4) Bomb is too close to the base (make it a little higher).

5) The king and its stand should maybe be larger. It's a minor curve as it is - but if you increase the stand size a little bit then that would make people turn more (which would make for a more effective block).

Great start though. I look forward to seeing changes

[silent skies]

Originally Posted by mikesol

Review:

1) The top lob is insane. There needs to be some cover for the base. The thing that currently block some lobs that has a turret and a pawn on it should extend over the base (not entirely but to cover a top lob).

Okay. If I rotated the pawn there and extended it horizontally over the base, would that work? Or is even more cover needed?

2) Minor aesthetics change - the shadows on the king next to the base on the cross part of them are kind of weird and trippy.

I'd designed it so that each map object has two shadows, one coming from a light source directly above the map, and one from the top-left corner... though I can understand how that might be too 'trippy.' Would simply removing one of the shadows work, in your opinion? Or is the problem due to the shape of the cross?

3) Spawn points are too far away. Consider lowering them slightly.

Will do.

4) Bomb is too close to the base (make it a little higher).

Will do...

5) The king and its stand should maybe be larger. It's a minor curve as it is - but if you increase the stand size a little bit then that would make people turn more (which would make for a more effective block).

How much of an increase would you suggest for the stand? 50% of current size? 100%

I can enlarge the king, too, of course, but hopefully not too much, because doing so would make it look comically large in comparison to the other pieces. in my opinion..

Great start though. I look forward to seeing changes

Thanks for your help!

[tyr]

I participated in that review test so here are my thoughts concerning your possible solutions.

Originally Posted by silent skies

Okay. If I rotated the pawn there and extended it horizontally over the base, would that work? Or is even more cover needed?

That is actually a nice way to fix it I think. Try rotating the pawn like 45° to cover the gap a bit and I think it should actually be enough. We were thinking about extending the small wall but this could work perfectly and it probably would be nicer indeed.

I'd designed it so that each map object has two shadows, one coming from a light source directly above the map, and one from the top-left corner... though I can understand how that might be too 'trippy.' Would simply removing one of the shadows work, in your opinion? Or is the problem due to the shape of the cross?

Before Mike mentioned it yesterday most of us didn't even see it, but it's true that its kinda weird. I think it's the shape of the cross as it seems perfectly fine on other pieces.

How much of an increase would you suggest for the stand? 50% of current size? 100%

I can enlarge the king, too, of course, but hopefully not too much, because doing so would make it look comically large in comparison to the other pieces. in my opinion..

So yeah, the problem at the bottom is that once the turrets there are dead, the attack route becomes extreeeeeeeemely easy, as there's only the king to block a direct way to the base from the middle of the map. And the kind isn't that big. As Mike said, you can make the stand/king bigger but as you pointed out, making the king bigger would be kinda weird.
The stand is a good option though.
What could be also be done to make the low route less effective is put a small wall right in front of the base to prevent easy direct hits from bombs on the side of the base when coming from bottom. It would force the attacking team to go a little higher to drop the bomb if they want a direct hit, increasing the time the defending team has to react.

Good map though, with a few changes it can be very nice.

[silent skies]

What could be also be done to make the low route less effective is put a small wall right in front of the base to prevent easy direct hits from bombs on the side of the base when coming from bottom. It would force the attacking team to go a little higher to drop the bomb if they want a direct hit, increasing the time the defending team has to react.

Good map though, with a few changes it can be very nice.

Sort of like the little lip in front of the base on tbd_heights? I think I can work one of those in

Do you think such an obstacle would be useful on the back of the base as well?

[tyr]

Originally Posted by silent skies

Sort of like the little lip in front of the base on tbd_heights? I think I can work one of those in

Yeah, exactly.

At the back I don't know. I don't think so. Going under the base already takes some time and in most cases the defending team has enough time to react, so to not totally nerf the under-the-base route for some solo plays or whatnot, I'd say leave the back of the base as it is.

[mikesol]

I agree with Tyr's suggestions to your responses. I really don't have anything to add ^^;

Make sure to let us know when it's changed so we can test it again though

[silent skies]

Okay, been busy as hell with other things this week, but just spent some time reworking the map objects. Here's how the possible tweaks would look. Red-side is the new stuff, blue-side is the old stuff (for comparison):



The size of the king remains unchanged. I redid his platform from scratch, increasing his horizontal dimension about 150% and vertical dimension about 200% (didn't take a ruler to it, just guessing). The king has been moved upwards slightly because of the new platform. The bottom route is a little more cramped, and requires runners to more or less go straight up if they want to hit the front of the base. (Too big? Too small?)

Little lip added to the front of the base. Like heights, guessing a bomb that hits there will do at most 10%, but haven't tested. (Good enough? Or needs to be taller/thicker?)

Pawn is now rotated 45 degrees over the base, possibly protecting better against top lobs. Added a little 45-degree extension to the platform to accommodate. (Does it extend enough over the base, or is more needed?)

Let me know your at-a-glance thoughts about the changes, thanks.

[tyr]

The king platform looks a bit fat. Maybe a little too fat I'm not sure, we'll have to test.

The pawn and the lip look perfect. ^^

[silent skies]

The king platform looks a bit fat. Maybe a little too fat I'm not sure, we'll have to test.

I decreased its size a bit. It's now about as 'fat' as the platform+rook that supports the team's base. Still plenty of room for bombers and explos to fit through.

Here is v1.41
DOWNLOAD

v1.41
- Fixed turret bug (had accidentally mixed up the angles on blue team turrets)



v1.40
- Pawn over base rotated 45 degrees and extended over base a little, to (hopefully) hinder lobs from top a bit.
- The king platform increased in size. King moved upward to compensate new platform.
- One of the shadows for the king removed. Hopefully less 'trippy' now.
- Spawns moved down closer to base.
- Bomb spawn moved up and back a bit (was too close to base ... moved back a bit so as not to interfere with spawn points, i.e. to prevent people accidentally picking up bomb when spawning)
- A tiny 'lip' added right in front of each base to hinder attacks a bit.