biplane is the least effective plane in ball

[elxir]

confirm/deny

every other plane has some quality that makes it useful for something in every possible situation

whale - mass area control with mines, affects planes direction and speed

bomber - area control with spam like whoa

loopy - area control with acid and speed/turning control with emp

miranda - extremely quick offense and defense around the goals. mind****s the opponent.

biplane - can hit 1 plane at a time, sometimes two. has no effect on groups of planes. has no ability to affect their speed or turning.

[Evan20000]

Biplane is generally considered UP. Get with the program, Elixir.

[elxir]

Originally Posted by Evan20000

Biplane is generally considered UP. Get with the program, Elixir.

Well, I just got yelled at for inferring that having two biplanes on our team was detrimental to our success.

[Ajuk999]

deny.

Biplane is the best Planeball plane second to loopy in my opinion. HC is really powerful in ball. Quit playing TBD elxir.

[Considered]

Generally agree with you, but specifically I think dumb bomb bomber is worse than any flavor of biplane.

[DMCM]

In Ball? More like in Altitude.

[Evan20000]

Originally Posted by Considered

Generally agree with you, but specifically I think dumb bomb bomber is worse than any flavor of biplane.

Dumb bombs are absolutely worthless outside of pubs. Bomber's other perks more then make up for this.

[Sunaku]

Originally Posted by elxir

Well, I just got yelled at for inferring that having two biplanes on our team was detrimental to our success.

Just no. You got yelled at because it didn't have anything to do with anything. We only had 2 biplanes till the midgame, where I switched to whale because we had none.
And for some reason we ended with three whales, so in other words a laughable offense on planepark and a change of strat coming out of nowhere. Hence me questioning our plane composition and you talking about two biplanes.
Hope you all enjoyed the dirty laundry washing there

[wolf'j'max]

Deny.

Biplane's are very good in ball if used well.

[tyr]

Originally Posted by Ajuk999

deny.

Biplane is the best Planeball plane second to loopy in my opinion. HC is really powerful in ball. Quit playing TBD elxir.

wat
lol

In many cases it is ball players that should play a bit more tbd.

[Evan20000]

Originally Posted by Sunaku

Just no. You got yelled at because it didn't have anything to do with anything. We only had 2 biplanes till the midgame, where I switched to whale because we had none.
And for some reason we ended with three whales, so in other words a laughable offense on planepark and a change of strat coming out of nowhere. Hence me questioning our plane composition and you talking about two biplanes.
Hope you all enjoyed the dirty laundry washing there

Do you need a dryer to go with that?

[hurripilot]

Hey lix, it's great that you think Biplane sucks, but can you not create another thread to bash it please? I mean, I'd understand if this was some kind of "hey guys, let's fix the Biplane and make it 'useful'" thread, but it's not, it's just you getting all butthurt because of some game none of us played in. There's already a wildly unhelpful Biplane thread you can go necro and complain in. Some of us like the Biplane and receive quite a bit of bitching for playing it already, there's no need for you to propagate that on the forums.

[Kuja900]

Biplane is the least effective plane in every game mode and it should definitely be first in line to receive a buff. Oh and everybody that values Ajuk's opinions please raise your hand.

[Ajuk999]

Ajuk doesn't value Ajuk's opinions. Period.

[elxir]

Originally Posted by hurripilot

Hey lix, it's great that you think Biplane sucks, but can you not create another thread to bash it please? I mean, I'd understand if this was some kind of "hey guys, let's fix the Biplane and make it 'useful'" thread, but it's not, it's just you getting all butthurt because of some game none of us played in. There's already a wildly unhelpful Biplane thread you can go necro and complain in. Some of us like the Biplane and receive quite a bit of bitching for playing it already, there's no need for you to propagate that on the forums.

I'm not insulting anyone who uses it. I'm saying it isn't good for team play in ball due to its design. There are good biplane users, such as yourself. However, there is almost always a more effective plane that you could be using (in ball). Especially when there are two biplanes.

Sunaku is a ridiculously good explodet, however he often chooses to play biplane. I'm saying the cost-benefit of losing his explo for a biplane just isn't worthwhile. The explo is so much more effective in ball.

[elxir]

Originally Posted by Kuja900

Biplane is the least effective plane in every game mode and it should definitely be first in line to receive a buff. Oh and everybody that values Ajuk's opinions please raise your hand.

I don't think a mere buff to damage or speed will do the job. Reference my first post: every plane has some way of affecting the opponent beyond mere damage, save the biplane and miranda. The miranda is clearly not at issue, as many even argue that it is OP (edit: on second thought, the miranda's 0 degree turn radius and general witchcraft do significantly affect the game, so scratch that).

The question is, what can be done to allow a biplane to affect the overall flow of the game, aside from killing things?

[elxir]

Crazy idea: you know how in all those old war movies, you see planes shot full of holes but still capable of staying in the fight?

What if the damage from the biplanes secondary weapon was not repairable?

[Sarah Palin]

*Loopy goes fast and helps clear the board with acid and spam

*Whale lives a long time and throws far and fast

*Miranda can "redirect" the flow of play incredibly fast with its 180 and time anchor (e.g. flying past the goal, picking up a loose ball, TAing to right in front of the goal, and dunking - you've all seen this a million times).

*Bomber can spam, live long, and throw decently far


Biplane? As a carrier, it lives marginally longer than loopy, but goes marginally slower. If biplane had some sort of evasion ability, like an aileron roll, that would make it a more valuable carrier and give it a place among the other four planes.

There are definitely PRO biplanes like Hurri and Protest but I get the feeling they would be even more OP with loopy.

[nobodyhome]

to elixir: that kind of mechanic seems kinda gimmicky to me. although interesting, i'm sure there are many standard solutions that we should try before coming up with something like that.

i disagree that increasing firepower or turn rate or health of the biplane won't help. just think about it--there has to be some point at which if you increase the raw stats of a biplane enough, it'd be dangerous enough to be overpowered. the problem lies in whether the point at which it's dangerous enough to be balanced makes the biplane far too powerful for dm modes (which is not a major mode but should still be considered).

lately i've imagined that since biplane's main problem is its lack of ability to control groups, a possible solution might be to simply make its secondary fire pierce. that way if you get a biplane in your group the results could be disastrous.

another solution i've thought is that since another of the biplane's problem is its lack of sustainability in fights, would be to reduce energy requirements on its weapons and/or afterburner.

a third thing i've thought of is that to make the dogfighter better, a solution might be to double the range of its secondary weapon. it's also easily explainable from a lore perspective--if you shoot farther of course it gives you more recoil.

but i think that the particular solution we implement is not as important as just doing SOMETHING for the biplane. the most recent buffs helped (in particular, helped HC against randas and loopies) but wasn't enough.

[Esoteric]

Nobo's suggestion of making the secondary fire pierce sounds AWESOME as a buff for TBD! Wouldn't be much of a buff at all in DM/FFA where biplane is already good but would a reasonable amount in organized TBD. Wouldn't help in ball as much though.

Ball is just a hard spot to be a biplane.
Loopy, Explodet and (to a lesser extent) Bomber all have ways of affecting the enemy's movement.
Loopy and Miranda are far superior runners.
Biplane's offense works best when flanking rather than charging head-on. HC has trouble shooting at head-on profiles and dogfighter/recoilless often need to swoop in from above. However, in ball you don't have the time to flank, you need to GO GO GO. Biplanes aren't good at this compared to Explodets and Bombers, who plow through Biplanes in a mad rush straight towards the goal.

I played straight HC Biplane in ball up to the (at one time) #1 spot because I enjoy HC. Nowaday's I'm in the 10-15 range and often resort to bomber on Lost City, Loopy on Mayhem, aanything else on snow... not to say Biplane isn't viable on some maps. Specifically, maps where there's more opportunity to flank while pushing rather than mainly separate paths (Asteroids, planepark, maze, etc.)

Unless planes suddenly get a lot fatter (it is REALLY hard to hit a decent head-on miranda with HC but cake if you're flanking) map selection becomes more balanced (not very likely, and also would homogenize the selection) or Biplane gets a buff so big it is overpowered in other gamemodes/situations it is always going to have trouble in some ball maps.

That said, it could benefit a lot from a small speed boost in both TBD and ball (without pumping up DM performance much.) Just don't expect it to stop being the least-played plane unless the changes are silly.

[elxir]

I like the pierce idea coupled with a small increase in range. You can even justify it from a realism standpoint...thousands of bullets, some are bound to fly by the first plane.

[Evan20000]

I think the secondary fire buff is a great idea. However, I think it should only apply to Recoiless and Dogfighter if anything. HC already has a piercing gun. Adding another would be sorta silly.

[lamster]

Interesting thread, I'm intrigued by the idea of piercing secondary. It's a tricky buff to evaluate, but certainly seems like the kind of thing that could open up Biplane for high level TBD/BALL (in a very unique niche) without totally breaking other situations.

[wolf'j'max]

making the secondary of the biplane piercing is definately interesting. if this would be used, i think one week or a few days of testing it first may make a difference in balancing.

[Sarah Palin]

Boosting firepower won't help biplane in ball.

Biplane is already significantly superior to loopy in close-quarters combat and when it can tail enemies. And both those situations happen more frequently in ball - for example, biplane can tail enemies that are running towards their own goal to retrieve a loose ball.

The problem is biplane is bad at running and throwing the ball. That's why people choose loopy over biplane - and why biplane is a lot more loved in TBD.

My suggestion would be remove Dogfighter's secondary weapon and replace it with a movement-related perk. This would fit with the flavor of Dogfighter, it would lead to people playing Dogfighter more, and Biplane would be getting a needed boost in Ball.

[Evan20000]

Originally Posted by Sarah Palin

Boosting firepower won't help biplane in ball.

Biplane is already significantly superior to loopy in close-quarters combat and when it can tail enemies. And both those situations happen more frequently in ball - for example, biplane can tail enemies that are running towards their own goal to retrieve a loose ball.

The problem is biplane is bad at running and throwing the ball. That's why people choose loopy over biplane - and why biplane is a lot more loved in TBD.

My suggestion would be remove Dogfighter's secondary weapon and replace it with a movement-related perk. This would fit with the flavor of Dogfighter, it would lead to people playing Dogfighter more, and Biplane would be getting a needed boost in Ball.

Shameless self promotion.

Anyway, I think piercing rounds will certainly help in TBD, and biplane is already (somewhat) viable in ball if played well.

[Blind Pilot]

Originally Posted by elxir

confirm/deny

biplane - can hit 1 plane at a time, sometimes two. has no effect on groups of planes. has no ability to affect their speed or turning.

Agree with above statement but deny that it's underpowered/least useful. It depends on the pilot.

Dogfighting Biplane is excellent for long range sniping, and close range interception. I love it especially for picking off planes that are already smoking. Also it's a relatively tough plane, definitely more so than loopy/miranda. It's a great escort for the ball/bomb carrier.

Another trick is knowing how to use the machine gun as a propulsion device.

[mlopes]

The general opinion seems to be that both dogfighter and recoiless are UP, so I think any solution that only applies to one of those setups, aren't really worth trying.

The piercing secondary fire one, seems nice, but I think it will only be useful if the range gets a little bigger, otherwise it won't be useful against groups, just against tight crowds.

The Evan2000 solution, presented on the other thread, seems nice too, the only problem could be that it could bring the biplane to randa's level in terms of mobility, leading to a OP biplane (as randa already is, specially in ball).

[classicallad]

Tell OjM and Esoteric this, they will lol.

[Goose]

elxir i think your a great player and all, and i am still in awe of your contributions to the game of Altitude, but i would have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. I once thought that biplane in ball was not a good decision as well at one point in my life, but that was before i saw O.o work his HC biplane magic.( and to a lesser extent Sunaku does ok sometimes as well i suppose) HC biplane is the best ball carrier imo. It can absorb more damage than the other light planes, shoots and passes faster, and with the flexi wings it has enough maneuverability to dodge and weave enemies and obstacles while maintaining enough speed to make a good push towards a goal. With all due respect, i have to disagree with your opinion on this one elixir, but i still think your a great dude.

[elxir]

i still can't decide if you're mocking me, or if you want to have sex with me

[hurripilot]

I say sex him, lix

[krawz]

I don't know how effective BP is in extremely competitive ball matches, but I sure enjoy the hell out of playing it. Flexi biplane flies the way a non-flexi biplane ought to.

[elxir]

I'd kindly appreciate a round of applause for me actually getting the biplane buffed while most of you sat back and complained about it or me.

Holla.

oh and of course, props to eso and nobo.

[tyr]

Originally Posted by elxir

I'd kindly appreciate a round of applause for me actually getting the biplane buffed while most of you sat back and complained about it or me.

Holla.

oh and of course, props to eso and nobo.

Oh you. You're like the bling of ACE.
Probably half of the population has muted you already by now. <3

[Evan20000]

That is a surprisingly accurate description, Tyr.

[DiogenesDog]

Originally Posted by elxir

I'd kindly appreciate a round of applause for me actually getting the biplane buffed while most of you sat back and complained about it or me.

Insufferable idjit.