Request to ban ridiculous perk sets in ladder servers

[elxir]

Setups that make no sense and are terrible ruin games. The player may claim they are trying, but frankly if you intentionally use a vastly inferior setup I believe it is intentionally hurting the team.

The only true offenders right now are (for ball):

loopy with flexi wings and rev thrust
miranda with time anchor / flexi / rev thrust

They add no benefit over any other setup. They make your plane worse in every way possible.

Kill them.

[elxir]

Like, ladder is a competitive setting wherein each player should be using a plane they are very good with that helps the team. These planes are "fun" to experiment with, but they have no place in what is supposed to be a high skill level server.

[Herodadotus]

Originally Posted by elxir

Setups that make no sense and are terrible ruin games. The player may claim they are trying, but frankly if you intentionally use a vastly inferior setup I believe it is intentionally hurting the team.

The only true offenders right now are (for ball):

loopy with flexi wings and rev thrust
miranda with time anchor / flexi / rev thrust

They add no benefit over any other setup. They make your plane worse in every way possible.

Kill them.

Well, I agree that these setups are bad for a team. I hesitate to say people use these intentionally to screw the team, though. I think flexi and rev thrust together is overall a bad combination. One or the other, not both. (And preferably flexi over rev right now.) Maybe we need to just tell these players why the setup is inferior, unless they're just doing it to be obstinant.

[Kuja900]

I am all for the banning of rev thrust in its entirety unless your name is beagle

[Boko]

Boost reverse, in my opinion. As it's not a viable competative perk as shown in the entity that is this thread

[Void]

+1, i'm definitely with elixir and kuj on this one. Isn't ladder meant to have games of higher quality and competitive play? I mean seriously if you choose to fly a reverse flex loopy on ladder you may aswell fly it without any perks it's just simple as that, no difference at all.

[Herodadotus]

Originally Posted by Void

+1, i'm definitely with elixir and kuj on this one. Isn't ladder meant to have games of higher quality and competitive play? I mean seriously if you choose to fly a reverse flex loopy on ladder you may aswell fly it without any perks it's just simple as that, no difference at all.

I think all of us are with elixir and Kuja at the moment.

[ufo]

i'm not. i don't see any problem with any setup.

its a game.

[Sarah Palin]

The thing is IN THEORY the ladder will balance this by lowering your rating again and again until you are "properly rated" at which point you will approach a 50% win ratio.

The problem is IN PRACTICE this takes forever. There is one player on ball ladder who has almost 70 games but his ratio is still 33% i.e. he still has too many points. Another player has a 40% win ratio and nearly 140 games.

Bad players take a long time to reach appropriate rank which is why crappy players can ruin games.

[Void]

Originally Posted by Herodadotus

I think all of us are with elixir and Kuja at the moment.

pretty fast edit there smartass

[tgleaf]

Originally Posted by Kuja900

I am all for the banning of rev thrust in its entirety unless your name is beagle

This is the way I'm leaning, too. Seeing reverse in the Dojo server is annoying, where the competitive level is at least >pubs for the most part. Seeing it in ladder is ridiculous. Still, there must be a way to exert social pressure without actually banning a perk.

[Herodadotus]

Originally Posted by Void

pretty fast edit there smartass

Damn, got caught.

[Harmonica]

This thread is a wonderful, depressing exemplification of the reasons I don't play ladder.

Competitive gameplay is too conservative and monochromatic as-is. I do not see how further uniformity would either decrease the "waiting for players" duration or add excitement to the games themselves.

[tgleaf]

Originally Posted by Harmonica

This thread is a wonderful, depressing exemplification of the reasons I don't play ladder.

Competitive gameplay is too conservative and monochromatic as-is. I do not see how further uniformity would either decrease the "waiting for players" duration or add excitement to the games themselves.

In defense of conservatism, many ladder matches come down to the wire (not all, of course... there are still inexplicable 6-1 games and what not). When a single player brings down a team by using a useless perk, it can easily sway the game. That gets old real fast. As I've said before, I honestly don't mind a player doing their best and struggling (if you're absolutely terrible, you shouldn't be playing ladder in the first place, of course), but it's different when you miss easy saves near goal or can't seem to avoid walls because you're flying in reverse.

[Evan20000]

Add dumb bombs to the list. There is NO conceivable reason you should ever be using these in either ladder.

[hurripilot]

http://media.photobucket.com/image/J...carthy-wit.jpg

Senator McCarthy approves of this thread.

[Herodadotus]

Originally Posted by hurripilot

http://media.photobucket.com/image/J...carthy-wit.jpg

Senator McCarthy approves of this thread.

Oh, McCarthy... So dashing!

[Stormich]

There's a pretty thin line you're crossing with banning some setups because where do you draw the line? Everyone has a different opinion. If you ask me there's a lot more perks that are not even close to other choices, most notably any plane using reverse, flexi loopy/randa/bomber, dogfighter/recoiless if theyre not running, dumb bombs, even director. I'd love to have a place where you wouldn't get people playing ridiculous setups but it wouldn't be fair to the "alternative" people.

[argonide]

I'm all for banning all the 'hardcore' reverse thrust users... but then again I also think anything that isn't turbo/ultra heavy/repair is a suboptimal perk set. Like storm said where can you draw the line? Good players are good regardless of perks when they try. Just ban players that make the game unpleasant. Even the worst/just-finished-tutorial players can choose bomber, press f at the chokes and contribute to the team.

[elxir]

this was originally a request to ban people if they are terrible and ruin an entire teams chances but i figured that would not be received as well.

[XX1]

Originally Posted by elxir

this was originally a request to ban people if they are terrible and ruin an entire teams chances but i figured that would not be received as well.

Oh and could we ban this SWN V person, he was in a couple ladder matches today, left without having a reason. Using the DF, Flexi + reverse perks. Playing not appropriately for ladder. Elixir may add more. I think he was there as well.
Goose tried to ban SWN V, though he couldn't for some reason...


-XX2

[DMCM]

I agree with this. Let's keep ladder competitive. In my oinion:


- Rubber Hull is by far the worst green perk and only people who can't fly use it. Ban it.

- The only blue perks that should be allowed are Turbo and Ultra (only whores use AI, only noobs, with a couple exceptions, use Reverse)

- Red perks... I don't really care, I hate to have any trackers or dumb bombers in my teams, but whatever.

[banana]

Let them use whatever perks they want. As a result if they are bad then their rating will go down until it stabilizes at a bad level. Then the ladder is balanced.

Any attempts to put this into practice will either;
1. Discourage any newer players from playing when they get shouted at for having a bouncy hull
2. Be unenforceable
3. Make the game community turn more elitist than it already is

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by DMCM

I agree with this. Let's keep ladder competitive. In my oinion:


- Rubber Hull is by far the worst green perk and only people who can't fly use it. Ban it.

- The only blue perks that should be allowed are Turbo and Ultra (only whores use AI, only noobs, with a couple exceptions, use Reverse)

- Red perks... I don't really care, I hate to have any trackers or dumb bombers in my teams, but whatever.

With the rubber hull changes recently its actually viable (although I'd never use it) so I would not ban that one, same deal with AI. Really the only thing I would ban is rev thrust.

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by banana

Any attempts to put this into practice will either;

1. Discourage any newer players from playing when they get shouted at for having a bouncy hull

-We want to discourage newer players from playing until they have the experience needed to be at a competitive level aka not bring down their entire team.

2. Be unenforceable

-There are enough admins to enforce this, if not more can be added.

3. Make the game community turn more elitist than it already is

Elitism is the best ism.

[DMCM]

I don't really see the point of Ace Instincts in compettive 5v5.

Any player in 5v5 won't stay alive more than 1-2 minutes even with gold bars, no matter how good he is. If he's staying alive much longer, he's dodging any confrontations and being useless to the team.


I'd like to see AI banned just to discourage ratio whoring.



@banana, I understand what you're saying, but we might as well keep the elitism all in one place. Let them reverse all they want in officials and other public servers and keep Ladder free of all that so we have a place for constant competitive games

[Kuja900]

Well with AI allowing you to accumulate bars faster now I think it is quite possible to get gold bars frequently without whoring. Keep in mind AI's effectiveness begins way before you hit gold.

[mikesol]

<.< I play rubber hull loopy occasionally. With the current upgrade to its power I actually enjoy it and can do fairly well with it

[ufo]

there's always someone to blame at the end of a ladder match, be it because of general skill, plane composition, or perk set-up. throw in the imperfections of auto-balance, the inevitability of players who abuse their lag for bomin (how do you think flight666 got to be #1 all that time ago), and other extraneous factors, and you come to realize that pointing the finger is futile. the real solution is to take losses like a man and stop QQin every time your rank goes down. i'm certainly still guilty of ragin at someone in the ladder for being a detriment to the team, but i'm also frequently the person responsible for losses. for instance, last night i lost 9 straight games in ball ladder knowing all-the-while that i was in no position to be playing well.

maybe we should ban drunk ufo too.

how often do you see a rev user anyways? and furthermore, how often is it their fault, and only their fault that your team lost.

[tgleaf]

Originally Posted by ufo

maybe we should ban drunk ufo too.

That's fine, just don't ban drunk guava.

Originally Posted by ufo

how often do you see a rev user anyways? and furthermore, how often is it their fault, and only their fault that your team lost.

Always? Never? Is that a trick question?

As I said earlier, I lean toward banning reverse thrust but in the end I think I'd rather have teams deal with the issue and have admins ban players when necessary. Obviously, there could be a skilled rev user, although they are few and far between. I think my worry would be that if rev was banned entirely, it would dissuade people from getting better at it in the pub games. Give someone enough time (Beagle) with rev thrust and they will eventually master it. If you cut out a perk at the highest competitive level, you thereby cut it out at lower levels for players interested in playing/reaching ladder.

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by ufo

how often do you see a rev user anyways? and furthermore, how often is it their fault, and only their fault that your team lost.

Uhh all the time and every time provided they refuse to switch planes.

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by tgleaf

That's fine, just don't ban drunk guava.



Always? Never? Is that a trick question?

As I said earlier, I lean toward banning reverse thrust but in the end I think I'd rather have teams deal with the issue and have admins ban players when necessary. Obviously, there could be a skilled rev user, although they are few and far between. I think my worry would be that if rev was banned entirely, it would dissuade people from getting better at it in the pub games. Give someone enough time (Beagle) with rev thrust and they will eventually master it. If you cut out a perk at the highest competitive level, you thereby cut it out at lower levels for players interested in playing/reaching ladder.

Tgleaf reverse thrust is useless at every level, in my previous post I just mentioned Beagle because I love him. Even good reverse thrust players are useless to their teams, it is a novelty perk of no value to team play. In over a year of time there has not been one rev user useful to a team, even its most prominent user (Beagle) was absolutely ineffective as a team player in 5v5/7v7 scenarios.

[mlopes]

Originally Posted by tgleaf

As I said earlier, I lean toward banning reverse thrust but in the end I think I'd rather have teams deal with the issue and have admins ban players when necessary.

In sum, ban a-holes!

[elxir]

Originally Posted by ufo

there's always someone to blame at the end of a ladder match, be it because of general skill, plane composition, or perk set-up. throw in the imperfections of auto-balance, the inevitability of players who abuse their lag for bomin (how do you think flight666 got to be #1 all that time ago), and other extraneous factors, and you come to realize that pointing the finger is futile. the real solution is to take losses like a man and stop QQin every time your rank goes down. i'm certainly still guilty of ragin at someone in the ladder for being a detriment to the team, but i'm also frequently the person responsible for losses. for instance, last night i lost 9 straight games in ball ladder knowing all-the-while that i was in no position to be playing well.

maybe we should ban drunk ufo too.

how often do you see a rev user anyways? and furthermore, how often is it their fault, and only their fault that your team lost.

about 6 games in i suggested you stop playing, tbh...even though our rankings mean we would never have been on the same team and i'd only benefit from you continuing.

the best games are those where all players are taking it reasonably seriously, using an effective combination of planes, and all players are competent enough to see the game developing and respond as needed to help their team.

there is a reason spectators and opponents go "LOLOLOLOLOL" when they see a reverse thrust loopy on a team. it has no purpose. it is not an effective plane. there is never a time where someone goes, "wow i sure wish i had equipped reverse thrust on my loopy right now."

as for ace instincts, i believe that zero and bgaf both use it quite effectively without whoring, as do numerous others.

the purpose of my request is not to ban everything except the "best" perks, it is to remove those perk setups that simply do nothing.

p.s. rubber hull bomber is pro, fffuuuuuu

[Evan20000]

Originally Posted by DMCM

I don't really see the point of Ace Instincts in compettive 5v5.

Instincts bombing with 3 gold bars is quite a powerful tactic that shouldn't be overlooked. 40 base damage is nothing to sneeze at. That, and it lets Biplanes and Mirandas become even more efficiency at ganking their prey.

EDIT:

there's always someone to blame at the end of a ladder match, be it because of general skill, plane composition, or perk set-up. throw in the imperfections of auto-balance, the inevitability of players who abuse their lag for bomin (how do you think flight666 got to be #1 all that time ago), and other extraneous factors, and you come to realize that pointing the finger is futile. the real solution is to take losses like a man and stop QQin every time your rank goes down. i'm certainly still guilty of ragin at someone in the ladder for being a detriment to the team, but i'm also frequently the person responsible for losses. for instance, last night i lost 9 straight games in ball ladder knowing all-the-while that i was in no position to be playing well.

maybe we should ban drunk ufo too.

how often do you see a rev user anyways? and furthermore, how often is it their fault, and only their fault that your team lost.

There will always be rage. This thread is just trying to weed out the inefficient perk setups. There's nothing wrong with learning ladder, the problem starts when these people refuse to change to better themselves and the team.

[andy]

you cant ban an entire perk because some players still use it effectively. Check out Nathor's rev explo.

imo we should ban loopy+rev, miranda+rev, bomber+rev and im not really sure about sniplane but im leaning towards banning it since it isnt really useful in team games.

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by andy

you cant ban an entire perk because some players still use it effectively. Check out Nathor's rev explo.

imo we should ban loopy+rev, miranda+rev, bomber+rev and im not really sure about sniplane but im leaning towards banning it since it isnt really useful in team games.

Nathors rev splo is useless, you can safely ban rev thrust in its entirety.

[classicallad]

just popped in to say that i dont care either way, i just yell and cuss at stupid people until they either change or leave. job done imo

[Evan20000]

Originally Posted by classicallad

just popped in to say that i dont care either way, i just yell and cuss at stupid people until they either change or leave. job done imo

I think that's how we all do it, but I feel like a massive dick afterwards.

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by Evan20000

I think that's how we all do it, but I feel like a massive dick afterwards.

You get used to it