Advantage of mouse control

[Boko]

TL;DR:

We have reached a decision:
Its a trap
Remove the mousecontrol!

[[Y]]

So shorten the line and remove the cursor altogether but have the line still follow the mouse.

[Ribilla]

I am left slightly confused by this entire thread. You seem to be basing your assertions about how effective mouse control is on two of the best players in the game and ignoring everyone else. Donk and Matt are very good players, but should I list the countless excellent keyboard players? The best whale, the best bip, etc, etc will all be keyboard players. You seemingly ignore everyone else, like myself, who are okay in the grand scheme of things, but pretty **** when it comes to pro matches.

The other bewildering thing is that you alternately slag off mouse control and then claim it's overpowered. You want parity and yet despite it's many disadvantages, you seek to nerf it further or remove it altogether?

Perhaps it really is easy to randa or bip with the mouse, but it's damned impossible to whale (as someone mentioned), by your logic, to achieve 'parity' perhaps we should give all mouse control whale users a 20% buff to all stats to compensate for this.

The two systems are FUNDEMENTALLY DIFFERENT. Mouse is arguably better for some things and keyboard for others, removing all the advantages of mouse control without removing any of keyboard control seems like you are moving in the opposite direction to the 'parity' you so desperately struggle for.

[VipMattMan]

Originally Posted by Ribilla

I am left slightly confused by this entire thread. You seem to be basing your assertions about how effective mouse control is on two of the best players in the game and ignoring everyone else. Donk and Matt are very good players, but should I list the countless excellent keyboard players? The best whale, the best bip, etc, etc will all be keyboard players. You seemingly ignore everyone else, like myself, who are okay in the grand scheme of things, but pretty **** when it comes to pro matches.

The other bewildering thing is that you alternately slag off mouse control and then claim it's overpowered. You want parity and yet despite it's many disadvantages, you seek to nerf it further or remove it altogether?

Perhaps it really is easy to randa or bip with the mouse, but it's damned impossible to whale (as someone mentioned), by your logic, to achieve 'parity' perhaps we should give all mouse control whale users a 20% buff to all stats to compensate for this.

The two systems are FUNDEMENTALLY DIFFERENT. Mouse is arguably better for some things and keyboard for others, removing all the advantages of mouse control without removing any of keyboard control seems like you are moving in the opposite direction to the 'parity' you so desperately struggle for.

A player using keyboard for thrust and mouse for aim has literally no disadvantage to a keyboard if they've mastered the combination. I wouldn't be better at whale or any other plane with only the keyboard.

This is about the way mouse has been implemented and how to equalize the advantage of that implementation. It's not an issue of inherent advantage within the input itself, but rather the system put in to make it work.

Every single great player in the game would be somewhat better with mouse and keyboard than they ever would be with the keyboard alone if they played to the point that they mastered the system. You can move the same way you could before, plus you have added visual cues that you wouldn't otherwise have.

[Boko]

Originally Posted by Ribilla

I am left slightly confused by this entire thread. You seem to be basing your assertions about how effective mouse control is on two of the best players in the game and ignoring everyone else. Donk and Matt are very good players, but should I list the countless excellent keyboard players? The best whale, the best bip, etc, etc will all be keyboard players. You seemingly ignore everyone else, like myself, who are okay in the grand scheme of things, but pretty **** when it comes to pro matches.

There more than two good players with mouse control (*cough* strong coffee *cough*), but maybe not so many because it has only been around for so long. I can guarantee that this amount will increase, simply because you have an advantage with mouse control. There are more excellent keyboard players because it's been around for so, so much longer.

Originally Posted by Ribilla

The other bewildering thing is that you alternately slag off mouse control and then claim it's overpowered. You want parity and yet despite it's many disadvantages, you seek to nerf it further or remove it altogether?

I would love to hear the disadvantages of mouse control, as I have not heard anything in this topic yet that can not be mastered by prose.

Originally Posted by Ribilla

Perhaps it really is easy to randa or bip with the mouse, but it's damned impossible to whale (as someone mentioned), by your logic, to achieve 'parity' perhaps we should give all mouse control whale users a 20% buff to all stats to compensate for this.

A 20% buff when using mouse control? Don't get crazy now.

Originally Posted by Ribilla

The two systems are FUNDEMENTALLY DIFFERENT. Mouse is arguably better for some things and keyboard for others, removing all the advantages of mouse control without removing any of keyboard control seems like you are moving in the opposite direction to the 'parity' you so desperately struggle for.

Yes they are FUNDEMENTALLY DIFFERENT and that's why they create an inbalance in this game, which for all I have established gives an advantage to mouse control players who have mastered it. And YES this game is balanced around the pro games, else we would be nerfing double fire loopies.

[trendy11one]

Originally Posted by Boko

I would love to hear the disadvantages of mouse control, as I have not heard anything in this topic yet that can not be mastered by prose.

Originally Posted by trendy11one

i have to rapidly move mouse every time when i wanna rev with miranda.

Originally Posted by BobTheJanitor

Anyone who thinks mouse is easy mode should play Miranda with it for a while. The mouse direction doesn't flip when you do, and it doesn't change directions when you anchor. So the most likely outcome is that you'll hit your movement special ability and then your plane will say 'Oh your mouse is pointed back behind me? WELL I BETTER TURN AROUND THEN! Oh look a wall, I wonder if it wants to be my friend!' It's soooooooo easy to plow into walls with mouse Miranda.

U cant master this. U always have to move it. And once u forget that - BANG. U hit wall. And even if u move it super fast, u wouldnt safe same horizont.It slightly changes.

If line help mouse users to aim and chute goal, i dont understand, why u say, that line would help to keyboard. Line will give big advantage to keyboard, coz u dont have difference between line angle and plane angle.

My suggestion is give option to add/remove line for everyone. Keyboard users will try it, and mouse users will try to flight without it. Then we can talk.

PS. Donk dont uses mouse.

[JonOFFon]

yep. I don't actually use mouse.

[[Y]]

I don't see the significance of this. Boko's point still stands, mouse is relatively new, so of course it's going to have significantly less good players than keyboard.

[naethy]

Ok, I'm just going to butt in here and unleash a few opinions, cuz that's how I roll.

1. Please don't insult players' skill based on their control method. I'm NOT saying ANYONE in this thread is doing that, but I have had several occasions in servers where someone has confused their total lack of skill with my mouse control. I play on a trackpad. Apple trackpad, so it's nice (for a trackpad), but a freaking trackpad. I am permanerfed already.

2. The issue of aiming seems, for me, a small one. Yes, I have a line extended from the front of my plane. However, I also have a cursor in front of my plane to keep track of. This leads to several disads:
a) Unless there are very clear skies, my attention is on my plane, and I don't use my throttle line to aim (at least consciously). Admittedly, I don't snipe often.
b) Certain techniques are near impossible with mouse control. It took me a *very* long time to be able to play randa. I can't tap "up" to boost myself while conserving energy stores. Throttle is tougher to manage. Some of these things are not an issue with keyboard + mouse, however.

3. Even if the throttle line were gone, there would still exist the mouse cursor, which could be used in much the same way.

4. It doesn't seem at all fair to cut mouse control completely, if at all. Many players -- mostly newer players, who we don't want to alienate -- would have to re-learn how to fly.

5. There is one strong advantage to mouse control, which has to do with whales (I think this has already been mentioned). If I get hit by a whale while flying, my plane will be disoriented but will still turn in the direction of my mouse. This can be a bad thing, if a large dangerous object now stands in between my plane and my cursor, but is generally good. In my opinion, this is the biggest advantage to mouse control.

6. I'd be happy to see an aimer-like thingy with keyboard control. That seems like a good truce to me, and might induce me to try keyboard control out for once.

7. It's fundamental, not fundemental. Sorry; Both my parents are english majors.

[Boko]

Originally Posted by naethy

Ok, I'm just going to butt in here and unleash a few opinions, cuz that's how I roll.

1. Please don't insult players' skill based on their control method. I'm NOT saying ANYONE in this thread is doing that, but I have had several occasions in servers where someone has confused their total lack of skill with my mouse control. I play on a trackpad. Apple trackpad, so it's nice (for a trackpad), but a freaking trackpad. I am permanerfed already.

2. The issue of aiming seems, for me, a small one. Yes, I have a line extended from the front of my plane. However, I also have a cursor in front of my plane to keep track of. This leads to several disads:
a) Unless there are very clear skies, my attention is on my plane, and I don't use my throttle line to aim (at least consciously). Admittedly, I don't snipe often.
b) Certain techniques are near impossible with mouse control. It took me a *very* long time to be able to play randa. I can't tap "up" to boost myself while conserving energy stores. Throttle is tougher to manage. Some of these things are not an issue with keyboard + mouse, however.

3. Even if the throttle line were gone, there would still exist the mouse cursor, which could be used in much the same way.

4. It doesn't seem at all fair to cut mouse control completely, if at all. Many players -- mostly newer players, who we don't want to alienate -- would have to re-learn how to fly.

5. There is one strong advantage to mouse control, which has to do with whales (I think this has already been mentioned). If I get hit by a whale while flying, my plane will be disoriented but will still turn in the direction of my mouse. This can be a bad thing, if a large dangerous object now stands in between my plane and my cursor, but is generally good. In my opinion, this is the biggest advantage to mouse control.

6. I'd be happy to see an aimer-like thingy with keyboard control. That seems like a good truce to me, and might induce me to try keyboard control out for once.

7. It's fundamental, not fundemental. Sorry; Both my parents are english majors.

You make good points (I copy/pasted 7. so REDEMPTIONNNN).

About 4. Harsh, but for all I see removing it is the best option for true balance atm. (and we got their money already anyway mehehehe)

About 5. Great, another advantage.

About 6., I've explained before that this does not add anything for a keyboard user, as you can't aim before you turn. I really don't see this as a solution to the presented problems. This won't take away 5. either.


I think the ultimate solution would be for everyone to grow a third arm so you can fly and shoot with keyboard and use the sniper rifle line of doom with your third arm, which has no effect on your flying/throttling.

[DryBone]

just to say, the lines are long in mouse control because it actually shows significant difference of thrusting forward and slowing down for because who actually uses throttling for mousecontrol

[shrode]

Originally Posted by Boko

I think the ultimate solution would be for everyone to grow a third arm so you can fly and shoot with keyboard and use the sniper rifle line of doom with your third arm, which has no effect on your flying/throttling.

4 arms and 2 mouses if ur playing as bomber

[BobTheJanitor]

Originally Posted by naethy

5. There is one strong advantage to mouse control, which has to do with whales (I think this has already been mentioned). If I get hit by a whale while flying, my plane will be disoriented but will still turn in the direction of my mouse. This can be a bad thing, if a large dangerous object now stands in between my plane and my cursor, but is generally good. In my opinion, this is the biggest advantage to mouse control.

I agree, mousing does make it easier to recover from thermo twists. What I'd like to see would be something in game that could change the direction of your mouse pointer. I.E. mouse user gets hit with a thermo, his mouse was pointed straight out in front of him, now the mouse gets moved to line up with wherever his nose is pointed after the thermo burst, off by 30 degrees or whatever it is. This would make mouse equivalent to keyboard with having to actually do something to correct their flight path, instead of just letting their ship auto correct to point towards where the mouse still is.

If this relocation of the mouse cursor could be done, the idea could be expanded to make mouse Randa less of a pain. You could have the cursor flip directions with you when you reverse, or change to point in the direction of your TA arrow when you anchor. I'm not sure how complex this is coding-wise though, to be able to move the mouse around to the right spot in every given scenario.

As far as anyone who's advocating actually removing the mouse from the game, have you really considered your stance? If the argument is that mouse is simply that good, you should probably start using it yourself. It's not logical to call it 'unfair', because mouse control is available to every player in the game. It could only be unfair if it was an advantage that only some players had access to. It's like if you decided you only wanted to play with your toes, and then demanded that everyone else should have their hands removed because it gives them an unfair advantage.

My apologies in advance if anyone here is a war veteran who plays with their toes, and my endless gratitude for your service. And kudos on your dexterous toes.

[VipMattMan]

Originally Posted by BobTheJanitor

If this relocation of the mouse cursor could be done, the idea could be expanded to make mouse Randa less of a pain. You could have the cursor flip directions with you when you reverse, or change to point in the direction of your TA arrow when you anchor. I'm not sure how complex this is coding-wise though, to be able to move the mouse around to the right spot in every given scenario.

As far as anyone who's advocating actually removing the mouse from the game, have you really considered your stance? If the argument is that mouse is simply that good, you should probably start using it yourself. It's not logical to call it 'unfair', because mouse control is available to every player in the game. It could only be unfair if it was an advantage that only some players had access to. It's like if you decided you only wanted to play with your toes, and then demanded that everyone else should have their hands removed because it gives them an unfair advantage.

Randa controls perfectly with mouse as it is right now, which is why i don't quite get the people claiming that it's impossible to master. It's more of a challenge to learn than perhaps any other plane in the game, but once you've done it you have a higher level of control than you'd otherwise have.

As for why people are talking about removing mouse, you have to remember that mouse control didn't exist in the game for the first year of it's release. It should be easy to understand why people might be a little bit irritated about the implementation of a new control system that when mastered makes the control methods that existed when they originally bought the game disadvantaged.

[Tekn0]

Originally Posted by BobTheJanitor

I agree, mousing does make it easier to recover from thermo twists. What I'd like to see would be something in game that could change the direction of your mouse pointer. I.E. mouse user gets hit with a thermo, his mouse was pointed straight out in front of him, now the mouse gets moved to line up with wherever his nose is pointed after the thermo burst, off by 30 degrees or whatever it is. This would make mouse equivalent to keyboard with having to actually do something to correct their flight path, instead of just letting their ship auto correct to point towards where the mouse still is.

I agree with this. Make thermo effects same as keyboard, why let all the embarrassing crashes only for keyboard users

[Aero_Beast]

what about the ones who have played with mouse the whole time we just have to learn a new way cuz you cant be as good with a keyboard

[Ribilla]

It seems to me, that people like myself who use only mouse are getting nerfed, when it's mouse + keyboard which is supposedly OP.

I am all for the whale thermo moving the cursor though, that is an unfair advantage,

[Urpee]

Originally Posted by Ribilla

It seems to me, that people like myself who use only mouse are getting nerfed, when it's mouse + keyboard which is supposedly OP.

I very much agree to this. Which is why I proposed removing the line for mouse+keyboard, but not for people who do thrust-control via mouse.

I am all for the whale thermo moving the cursor though, that is an unfair advantage,

Frankly I think the difference is overstated too. Your ship will be turned, but you do have a corrective angle (which incidentally may be wrong now and face you in a wall). Matt, would you argue that you can seriously escape thermos on any sizeable rate given the argument made here? I certainly cannot.

On the flip side, if you do move the cursor you move the mouse center, which is a rather serious adjustment to make in mouse play.

[BobTheJanitor]

Originally Posted by VipMattMan

Randa controls perfectly with mouse as it is right now, which is why i don't quite get the people claiming that it's impossible to master. It's more of a challenge to learn than perhaps any other plane in the game, but once you've done it you have a higher level of control than you'd otherwise have.

It's not impossible to master, it's simply annoying. Having to whip the mouse line back and forth quickly every time you reverse just gets old after a while. If you want to talk about the real discrepancy between mouse and keyboard, it's right there. Keyboard users can reverse or time anchor their randa with impunity, mouse users have to manually adjust their direction every time they use either.

Originally Posted by VipMattMan

It should be easy to understand why people might be a little bit irritated about the implementation of a new control system that when mastered makes the control methods that existed when they originally bought the game disadvantaged.

It's easy to understand but that doesn't make my point any less valid. If it's really a flat out better control system, learn to use it. If it's not better, stop worrying about it. There's no justification for the person who claims that it confers an advantage to people who use it, yet refuses to learn it themselves. Except perhaps laziness. Which is fine with me, I like being lazy as much as the next guy. But I don't expect other people to change their lives around to accommodate my laziness.

[Tekn0]

Originally Posted by Urpee

Matt, would you argue that you can seriously escape thermos on any sizeable rate given the argument made here? I certainly cannot.

I asked Matt about this in-game, and he said yes, it does help when using the mouse to recover from thermos. This is probably my ONLY gripe of mouse over keyboard more than even the sniper line of doom or sure goal.

[Urpee]

Which of course begs a separate question: Which tuning of thermo is the desired one? The one which the keyboard players get or the one a competent mouse player get.

I tend to think that thermo is very powerful, on narrow ball maps devastatingly so. I don't think giving people some chance to recover is a problem from my angle.

[VipMattMan]

Originally Posted by Urpee

Matt, would you argue that you can seriously escape thermos on any sizeable rate given the argument made here? I certainly cannot.

You get the full impact of the thermo, so within the .3 seconds or so that forces have influence you're in the same boat as keyboard users. The difference in that area becomes the whole orientation deal. A keyboard user has to figure out which way they're being thermoed and try to compensate within that split second, while orientation with mouse cursor is never an issue. The cursor moving when thermo hits you as Bob suggested might help that some.

Originally Posted by BobTheJanitor

It's easy to understand but that doesn't make my point any less valid. If it's really a flat out better control system, learn to use it. If it's not better, stop worrying about it. There's no justification for the person who claims that it confers an advantage to people who use it, yet refuses to learn it themselves. Except perhaps laziness. Which is fine with me, I like being lazy as much as the next guy. But I don't expect other people to change their lives around to accommodate my laziness.

Are you telling me that you don't recognize the issue of implementing something that has the potential to change gameplay mechanics a year after the release of a game to the extent that it requires its entire userbase to change control methods in order to gain an equal footing with new users who learned a control method that had unfair visual periphery?

Let's say a developer of a first person shooter a year into their release thought to themselves, "HEY! People sometimes play without sound and that makes the game almost impossible for them since our game has so many sound cues in it". So, their response to that is to give all people with sound disabled in options visual indicators of player locations all around the side of their screens.

Let's say a group of hardcore players thought to themselves, "HEY! I'm pretty good at this game, but there's no way i can ever figure out player location based on sound as well as those soundless indicators show". They flip the option and always seem to have a slight edge over everyone else. More and more people recognize that edge and take on that advantage of playing soundless.

Time passes, and a thread is created on the game's forum by a sound user about the advantages of soundless. The hardcore players concede that there's an advantage, if only slightly, that does exist. Discussions are had about the whats, the whys and the hows. One user even proposes that because he learned soundless from the beginning of his play time that everyone else should just learn soundless, particularly since it's shown to be so much better.

Of course, once everyone is playing soundless the nature of the game will have changed. That user progression to soundless settings will have resulted from the method by which it was implemented. Not because it was genuinely "better".

[Stormich]

Nothing really to add except that every single Matt's reply owned this thread over and over, I am in awe. And yes, any advantage however small it might be leads to wins over losses over time.

[krawz]

Originally Posted by BobTheJanitor

There's no justification for the person who claims that it confers an advantage to people who use it, yet refuses to learn it themselves. Except perhaps laziness. Which is fine with me, I like being lazy as much as the next guy. But I don't expect other people to change their lives around to accommodate my laziness.

I really don't think it's quite that simple. Our brains are all wired differently from each other. What is intuitive or within the realm of possibility to you, may be unintuitive, distracting or nearly impossible to me. It is standard in modern computer games to offer multiple methods of control, because some of us are more comfortable with one over another. For example, no matter how many hours I put into first-person shooters on my Playstation, I am still clumsy with the analogue sticks. I see no signs of ever being able to use those things accurately. They are just not compatible with me.

Also, I avoid using a mouse or trackball on computers when I can because they give me carpal tunnel-like symptoms. I used to be able to use them for extended periods and kick some butt in FPS games, but apparently I'm getting older. The trackpad on my MacBook is comfortable for mousing activities, but I couldn't use it to control my plane in Altitude with any degree of accuracy. So, it's keyboard for me, all the way.

I think that mouse and keyboard need to be balanced, but that both need to remain an option. I don't see the developers of the game risking throwing away a sizeable chunk of their player base by disposing of mouse control entirely. I think the aiming line that mouse users have now, needs to be rethought and adjusted, as well as the other differences in how the plane behaves between control sets, such as the auto-leveling correction when thermo'd.

Guess I felt like typing today.

Peace!

[krawz]

Originally Posted by Aero_Beast

screw keyboard users even if it does help quit being whiners and learn mouse its nicer when you learn it neway

Can you please resend the decoder wheel that is needed to read your posts? I seem to have misplaced mine.

FLAME ON!

[BobTheJanitor]

Originally Posted by VipMattMan

Lots of words.

Fair points, although you're getting close to punching a straw man there. While your scenario envisions a game addition (by a rather ham-handed developer) that would provide a really big advantage, what is in effect a built-in wallhack, we're just talking about a line that points to your mouse cursor here. I still haven't been convinced that this allows as great of an advantage as some have implied.

And I'm not making the argument that everyone should learn to play mouse since it's so much better, although I can see where someone could get that impression from previous statements. It's all hyperbole. I'm saying that if someone wants to make that claim that mouse is so much better, their best option would be to use it and take advantage of the better control scheme. I don't really think it is better, though. Well, I think it is for me, because I started out with it after many years of FPS play. One hand on the keyboard, one hand on the mouse, and one foot on the cat is how I play all my games. (The cat doesn't agree though.) But it's not 'better' as in 'conferring an unfair advantage' it's simply more comfortable. But then I'm not entirely qualified to judge, because it's really all I've used except for maybe 30 minutes of keyboard when I first started out.

Let's get back to the real game. The only time that a mouse cursor becomes anything close to an aiming line is when you're flying straight in one direction. The easiest way to die in this game is to fly straight in one direction. If someone doesn't come along and blast you like the sitting duck you are, you'll plow into a wall in just a few seconds. Probably 99% of the time, the mouse is going to be pointing where your nose is not pointing, because you're using it to turn with. That's why I said somewhere earlier that if keyboard wanted an equivalent to the mouse line, it would have to always bend towards the direction that you're currently turning, and only point straight out in front of you after you haven't touched the movement keys for about a second. But that would look pretty silly. Maybe you could add a straight line in front of the plane that vanishes as soon as you hit your movement keys to simulate the mouse effect. Well, maybe as an optional feature since it would just confuse new players.

I think that if it were possible to sift this thread and get the real feelings out of people, you'd find a lot of anti-mouse animosity comes from the good old competitive bias that you find in any game of this type. When you don't do as good as the other guy, you want to find out the reason why. Maybe it's because you want to improve and do better next time, or maybe it's because you're angry and want something to blame. I wouldn't dare accuse anyone, of course, I'm sure everyone's intentions are noble. But when you find anything different about the other guy, it's human nature to want to blame that difference. "He won because he's using a mouse, I never learned mouse, that must be why!" Unfortunately sometimes the other guy won because he's just played longer and harder than you. (Note, the other guy in this scenario isn't me. I'm the one flying into a wall in the background. No one's ever accused me of being better because of using a mouse. No one's ever accused me of being better, full stop.)

Anyway, if the general sentiment of experienced players who have tried both types of control to the point of getting good with them is that there is an imbalance, I'm all for fixing it. Of course the idea of removing mouse control entirely is just silly. I'm pretty sure Nimbly Games likes making money and wants to continue to do so, so the idea of making the game less accessible for current or future customers is probably a bad one.

Originally Posted by krawz

For example, no matter how many hours I put into first-person shooters on my Playstation, I am still clumsy with the analogue sticks. I see no signs of ever being able to use those things accurately. They are just not compatible with me.

Nah, that's just because FPS games on consoles will always be a terrible idea. (Except for Goldeneye on the 64, which was the best game ever. I have no logical justification for this statement. Shut up!) A six year old with a mouse and keyboard would beat the pants off a console 'pro'. You want to talk about unbalanced control schemes, here's the real elephant in the room.

[blln4lyf]

Honestly man..you should just stop. Mattman's understanding of the game and the strategy involved is just out of your league.

[BobTheJanitor]

Huh, and here I thought we were having an intelligent, adult discussion. I guess I'll butt out so I don't accidentally trod on anyone's ego any further. Best of luck in solving your mouse issues!

[Ribilla]

Backing up our wonderful Janitor's logical analysis, that is a bad analogy.

There is a difference between a straight up adavantage (like visual sounds indicators) and an entirley different style of play.

I am not saying you don't understand the game, but from a purely logical point of view, your arguement is moot.

[VipMattMan]

Originally Posted by Ribilla

Backing up our wonderful Janitor's logical analysis, that is a bad analogy.

There is a difference between a straight up adavantage (like visual sounds indicators) and an entirley different style of play.

I am not saying you don't understand the game, but from a purely logical point of view, your arguement is moot.

Not moot at all. The mouse gives you a cursor you can stick right into the goal. With any other control system you have to look at your plane and guestimate trajectory.

Not saying you don't understand the game, but from a purely logical point of view I'd say your refusal to view that as a straight up advantage is bordering on the line of conscious ignorance.

I've stated it before. The separation between the line/cross hair and where you're pointing that Bob is talking about is insignificant when you've actually played long enough to master it. It's all advantage from there.

[elxir]

matt i am pretty impressed by your responses. well thought out and insightful as you have perspective from both control standpoints. well done sir.

[Boko]

Originally Posted by Ribilla

Backing up our wonderful Janitor's logical analysis, that is a bad analogy.

There is a difference between a straight up adavantage (like visual sounds indicators) and an entirley different style of play.

I am not saying you don't understand the game, but from a purely logical point of view, your arguement is moot.

No not visual sound indicators, visual aiming indicators (a line and crosshair).

It seems that the more experienced players replying in this topic (Matt, blln, elixr, sinstar, mikesol) agree that mousecontrol does have an advantage. I have tried mousecontrol myself and I've found that aiming is just simply way too easy.
Point here is that there has been established that mousecontrol simply does have multiple advantages, being:

1. sniper rifle line of doom
2. the crosshair
3. the thermo case

And disadvantages:

1. controlling a randa is tough to master.
2. controlling a whale is tough to master.

I believe that the disadvantages are also part of being a new player, as I found randa and whale the hardest to control when I was new too.

The argument that the disadvantages compensate for the advantages is moot because you shouldn't compensate the one for the other, but rather balance the disadvantages and advantages to an even level to ensure a fair gameplay.

I also think that the point + score/kill also takes the fun, skill curve and replay value out of the game. I mean the guestimating is part of the game, you'll be able to get better the more you play alti, but all the new players just skip that class and use mouse control. Maybe this is part of why you didn't have as much players staying from the steam sale as you might've wanted.

I'd like to hear a dev's thoughts to this and also the thought behind why you implemented mouse control.

[Jewbacchus]

The aiming advantage needs to be made more equal.

For Mouse: Significantly shorten the line, move the thrust/direction line somewhere it doesn't help aim shots(like in debug mode), make it a direction cone (widening away from the plane) so that it is not a visual aid anymore but still indicates direction and thrust,

For keyboard: add an optional line that is the same as mouse controls

For either: Make the line a perk, nerf xp, damage and/or energy usage for those using laser sights.

[lamster]

We implemented mouse control so that more gamers could enjoy Altitude. A huge number of PC gamers expect any game they download to work primarily (or exclusively) through mouse input. After repeated demands from prospective players, we implemented it. After several split tests (players were alternately assigned to a tutorial that allowed only keyboard control, only mouse control, or showed keyboard control instructions but allowed mouse control if/when the user attempted it) we discovered that a significantly higher fraction of new players would stick with the game (completing tutorials, purchasing, and playing online against others) with the hybrid approach (keyboard encouraged, but mouse allowed).

I agree that inputs should be fair for all players, but it's not clear whether the mouse offers advantages at the highest levels of play. Among the drawbacks of mouse control are occasionally reduced field of view, dynamic input (moving a mouse generally requires greater dexterity than timing key presses), and split visual focus (tracking your cursor position) (the latter 2 considerations are especially significant with pure mouse control). On the advantage side there's the visual aiming guide and easier thermo recovery. Matt's perspective is valuable and his point that mouse+keyboard can feel a lot like keyboard (with a bonus visual guide) is fair.

The initial implementation of mouse control did not offer the hybridized (keyboard for thrust) option, and after testing pure-mouse I decided that the extra dexterity/visual-focus requirements (which are significant with mouse-throttle) easily offset the visual guide (which is absolutely necessary for manipulating speed in mouse-throttle mode). The hybridized control option was added later (by player request) and I didn't really consider control fairness ramifications at the time. Indeed, the hybridized model has reduced dexterity and visual-focus requirements (it is easier to aim with the mouse when you're not worried about simultaneously throttling, and there's less need to maintain multiple visual foci). With mouse+keyboard mode the visual orientation/throttle bar is no longer necessary (at least in its current long form) so the ideal solution may be to significantly reduce the length of the orientation bar in that mode, as suggested in this thread. I'm also open to various schemes for fixing thermobarics for mouse users (assuming there are no technical issues; I seem to remember problems manipulating cursor positions for Mac users). I'm pretty sure any more dramatic changes (e.g. complete elimination of the cursor) would break mouse mode as a viable input method.

That said, while I'm leaning towards minor adjustments, I'm not completely convinced that any changes are necessary: hybrid mouse mode still has some minor drawbacks, and a single high-level player does not represent compelling evidentiary basis.

[SPeciaL]

disable hybrid (keyboard+mouse) and shorten the line. thats my suggestion. i think it's already fair enough except at aiming.

[Stormich]

How about both #1 spots in tbd and ball ladder being held by mouse users? lol

[Boko]

Originally Posted by lamster

I agree that inputs should be fair for all players, but it's not clear whether the mouse offers advantages at the highest levels of play. Among the drawbacks of mouse control are occasionally reduced field of view, dynamic input (moving a mouse generally requires greater dexterity than timing key presses), and split visual focus (tracking your cursor position) (the latter 2 considerations are especially significant with pure mouse control). On the advantage side there's the visual aiming guide and easier thermo recovery. Matt's perspective is valuable and his point that mouse+keyboard can feel a lot like keyboard (with a bonus visual guide) is fair.

Yes it is clear, because it has been discussed here extensively. It's just not that present because it's new. It requires more dexterity, but if someone has this dexterity he will have the advantage, and this is pretty much negated in hybrid mode.

Originally Posted by lamster

That said, while I'm leaning towards minor adjustments, I'm not completely convinced that any changes are necessary: hybrid mouse mode still has some minor drawbacks, and a single high-level player does not represent compelling evidentiary basis.

A single high level player does not represent a good evidentiary basis for having an unfair advantage, agreed. But the fact that the advantages have been discussed in this topic and that you even agree that hybrid mouse mode is like a keyboard with bonus visual guide indicates that something should be changed. Just because not enough players have mastered it yet is not a reason to not make changes. Oh and as said, the drawbacks shouldn't compensate for the advantages. Fix the drawbacks and the advantages to really create a balance.

[Ribilla]

The point is that you need to be able to nerf mouse + keyboard, without affecting pure mouse control, which is difficult enough as it is.

[Boko]

Originally Posted by Ribilla

The point is that you need to be able to nerf mouse + keyboard, without affecting pure mouse control, which is difficult enough as it is.

True that pure mouse control's disadvantages are so bad that you can't really get profit from the advantages. But that shouldn't be a barrier for nerfing the advantages, it should be an indicator that you need to make it easier to use (god knows how) and that you need to nerf the advantages.

Edit: page 4 hell yea

[VipMattMan]

Originally Posted by lamster

That said, while I'm leaning towards minor adjustments, I'm not completely convinced that any changes are necessary: hybrid mouse mode still has some minor drawbacks, and a single high-level player does not represent compelling evidentiary basis.

Between the relatively small size of the altitude community and the fact that mouse has a learning curve, there haven't been that many people that have attempted to learn the setup. Even fewer have mastered it.

It's mostly a where there's smoke there's fire situation. Ball players at the highest levels of competition have asked me how i hit shots with the consistency that i do, and out of fairness i tell them that i use mouse aim.

It may not be a "problem" right now, but it's likely that if nothing changes about the scheme more people are going to try to figure out the whole system.

Doesn't personally bother me a bit for the controls to stay exactly as they are. It's only to my benefit.