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  #201  
Old 01-24-2011, 12:42 PM
Urpee Urpee is offline
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I would agree with matt assessment. It is somewhat disadvantages compared to keyboard right now, not so easy to say how much.

But then there just is no middle ground as I see it and it's not clear to me it needs changing.

Thermo can mess with both keyboard and mouse pretty bad, and it's not like it was so easy to get out of Thermo in any but the most open maps, so I don't think there is a massive issue here either way.
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  #202  
Old 01-24-2011, 01:16 PM
Ribilla Ribilla is offline
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It feels like there is a larger effect, but it might just be us being slow to adjust. I think that the best course of action is to wait for like a month or so then if there is still an issue (because it isn't a particularly large one) try to make it fair by, for instance, reducing the thermo effect on the mouse by 5%.

I have been trying to learn whale recently (and failing), but it does seem to have more effect on mouse users. If we had one of the opinions of one of the pro whalers it would be good.
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  #203  
Old 01-24-2011, 01:22 PM
blln4lyf blln4lyf is offline
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Honestly, only the best of the best even have this effect them at all. There is really no way to change it, and this current set up is a hell of a lot more balanced than it was when thermo almost did nothing against mouse users.

I understand you guys are upset, esp. Matt because it seems he can actually react and read the thermo when it hits his plane somehow, but it is minor disadvantage. Even if there is a very small time delay, your just finally getting a taste for thermo and how damn strong it is, give it some time. Also, try SLOWING DOWN, you won't be hitting any walls that way.

The reason I said this could only effect the best of the best is because I promise you that over 99% of players DO NOT know what direction they will be turned in when they get thermoed, and therefore will NOT be holding the opposite directional key by the time they have control.

And for those who are unclear, Matt is saying this. If you hold a direction on KB you will start going in that direction the frame you get control back. On mouse you have to actually move the mouse so it becomes harder to get control in those first few frames because you can't just continuously move the mouse up or down like you do with keyboard. This really has nothing to do with finding your cursor if you are a mouse player.

On the other hand the cursor/aim advantage is not that minor so saying mouse is balanced because mouse has this slight disadvantage in regards to thermo and a big advantage in aim is just false. I still very strongly believe that mouse is the better control method at this time.
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  #204  
Old 01-24-2011, 01:26 PM
Ribilla Ribilla is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blln4lyf View Post
Honestly, only the best of the best even have this effect them at all. There is really no way to change it, and this current set up is a hell of a lot more balanced than it was when thermo almost did nothing against mouse users.

I understand you guys are upset, esp. Matt because it seems he can actually react and read the thermo when it hits his plane somehow, but it is minor disadvantage. Even if there is a very small time delay, your just finally getting a taste for thermo and how damn strong it is, give it some time. Also, try SLOWING DOWN, you won't be hitting any walls that way.

The reason I said this could only effect the best of the best is because I promise you that over 99% of players DO NOT know what direction they will be turned in when they get thermoed, and therefore will NOT be holding the opposite directional key by the time they have control.

And for those who are unclear, Matt is saying this. If you hold a direction on KB you will start going in that direction the frame you get control back. On mouse you have to actually move the mouse so it becomes harder to get control in those first few frames because you can't just continuously move the mouse up or down like you do with keyboard. This really has nothing to do with finding your cursor if you are a mouse player.

On the other hand the cursor/aim advantage is not that minor so saying mouse is balanced because mouse has this slight disadvantage in regards to thermo and a big advantage in aim is just false. I still very strongly believe that mouse is the better control method at this time.
It's very difficult to control the throttle well with just the mouse, so slowing down is harder than you think, because you don't know which direction to move the cursor to bring it back towards your plane (when you have been thermoed).

There are other disadvantages of mouse besides the thermo, just saying

THIS IS ONE BIG ADVANTAGE
HERE IS ONE SMALL DISADVANTAGE

QED mouse is OP

Is not a valid arguement, you are not taking into account the full spectrum of advantages and disadvantages.
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  #205  
Old 01-24-2011, 01:35 PM
blln4lyf blln4lyf is offline
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Well for one you slow down BEFORE thermo hits you, which you can easily do. I was also moreso talking about mouse + KB control users since I didn't think there were many full mouse users out there. However, both outputs can absolutely slow down before they get thermoed.

As for the full spectrum of advantages and disadvantages, go ahead and list what you think they are, because as far as I can tell, these are the only two distinguished ones that I have seen/heard of.

Given that thermo is the only "control" method (EMP doesn't move the cursor) it is the only thing that would give mouse a small disadvantage in regards to the difference in input laid out above by Mattman, and more clearly in my last post. Then, the fact that mouse has a cursor is an fairly obvious advantage.
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  #206  
Old 01-24-2011, 06:51 PM
lamster lamster is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VipMattMan View Post
Your plane turns where you put your cursor, so there's a passive element where you are expecting your plane to turn a certain direction. If you get thermo'd with the new system your cursor repositions in the direction of the plane/thermo. Not only is your plane going in a certain direction, but your CONTROLS are too...

From what i can recall of my playtime over the past couple of days, the mouse direction is locked for a few moments as thermo forces are exerted. That means you can't begin to select a direction until control is allowed.
The first part of your post is basically correct, the second part is not.

The moment a thermobaric rocket detonates angular momentum is applied to your plane. Each update, in addition to any normal turn-based orientation adjustment (e.g. keyboard or cursor-driven) an angular momentum adjustment modifies your orientation (the moment after being hit a huge correction occurs, and over the next 2/3 of a second the correction fades to nothing).

With keyboard control, if you take your hands off the keyboard just before thermo your plane will spin under angular momentum to a new direction over 2/3 of a second.

With mouse control, if you take your hands off the mouse just before thermo your plane will spin, under a combination of turn-toward-cursor and angular momentum, to a new direction. To offset the potential disadvantage of the initial-frame turn-toward-cursor stacking with the angular momentum, the cursor is NOT moved to the "theoretical hands-free keyboard angular momentum based orientation endpoint" -- instead it's moved about 80% of that angular displacement -- so in fact the turn-toward-cursor begins acting -opposite- the momentum after a few moments, and a hands-free mouse user ends up turning 20% less than a hands-free keyboard user when all is said and done.

Additionally, at no time is any mouse user's cursor locked in position: with quick reflexes you can flick the mouse, find the cursor, and place it along a new path to cancel angular momentum before any turning has occurred (theoretically instantly, in practice often well within the duration of effect) allowing your cursor-turn to begin offsetting angular momentum.

Ultimately, there is bound to be a qualitative difference in the impact of thermobarics (a weapon that exerts its influence primarily through disrupting controls) on keyboard and mouse users, reflecting the fundamental differences between those control methods. My feeling is that the latest changes bring the impact into a reasonably balanced position, with no control method presenting a clear perk-specific advantage.

There is very little chance of any major adjustments to keyboard or mouse control in the future barring overwhelming evidence that one method is vastly superior at the highest levels of play.
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  #207  
Old 01-24-2011, 06:53 PM
elxir elxir is offline
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gosh you're a cutie
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  #208  
Old 01-24-2011, 08:07 PM
blln4lyf blln4lyf is offline
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So mouse users don't get effected as much in terms of angular position before and after...so much for them being disadvantaged in terms of thermo. I can't speak for everyone but based on lamsters description I'd still rather play mouse against thermo.
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  #209  
Old 01-25-2011, 12:33 AM
VipMattMan VipMattMan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blln4lyf View Post
So mouse users don't get effected as much in terms of angular position before and after...so much for them being disadvantaged in terms of thermo. I can't speak for everyone but based on lamsters description I'd still rather play mouse against thermo.
You don't have to worry about your keyboard trying to murder you.

Now that Lamster has discussed the way they applied this change, the disadvantage -if there is one- apparently isn't nearly as significant as it seemed it might have been.

As far as it being "better", i dunno. You still have to go through that process that's a little more involved than keyboard.
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  #210  
Old 01-25-2011, 12:43 AM
andy andy is offline
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Yeah but after you've practiced it and you reach its potential skill ceiling its still much better than keyboard (where you cant do anything for 2/3 of a second).
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  #211  
Old 01-25-2011, 12:57 AM
VipMattMan VipMattMan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy View Post
Yeah but after you've practiced it and you reach its potential skill ceiling its still much better than keyboard (where you cant do anything for 2/3 of a second).
Lamster said the correction fades over 2/3 of a second. That's true for both control methods. That means that both control methods have the opportunity to pick up control influence at about the same time.

Edit-
I read Lamsters post as saying that you initially get the same angular force with both control methods, but with the mouse cursor placement there's a very very very slight countering effect (which amounts to a 20% reduced turn when nothing is moved).

Going through the process of realizing that you've been thermo'd, your plane is turning, your mouse cursor is being relocated, and readjusting the cursor, is still going to be slower than realizing that you've been thermo'd, your plane is turning and you need to press a corresponding button.

Whether that 20% difference in non-movement/key-pressed result amounts to any great advantage is questionable to me, when its also likely that a person using keyboard can respond to their circumstance more quickly when the angular effect has degraded some.

Last edited by VipMattMan; 01-25-2011 at 01:41 AM.
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  #212  
Old 01-25-2011, 02:01 AM
andy andy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lamster View Post
Additionally, at no time is any mouse user's cursor locked in position: with quick reflexes you can flick the mouse, find the cursor, and place it along a new path to cancel angular momentum before any turning has occurred (theoretically instantly, in practice often well within the duration of effect) allowing your cursor-turn to begin offsetting angular momentum.
I was referring to this, im not saying mouse is still OP (even though i think so but not for the thermo issue), im just saying that you still have an advantage over keyboard if you can master it even though the last patch made it tougher to counter thermo.
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  #213  
Old 01-25-2011, 02:09 AM
Urpee Urpee is offline
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I'm rather stunned what kinds of confidences people have about just who has advantages where, especially if you don't have extensive experience about the control you are discussing...

Frankly I think the discussion is done. Some experience may justify reopening it, but for now thermo is as devastating as it should be. Recovery is hard, on narrow maps neigh impossible. I certainly don't see a point debating if it's preferable to crush into the wall at a slightly different angle.

If there is an effect how about showing it, rather than speculating just how badly disadvantaged X or Y really is?
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  #214  
Old 01-25-2011, 01:49 PM
blln4lyf blln4lyf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VipMattMan View Post
You don't have to worry about your keyboard trying to murder you.

Now that Lamster has discussed the way they applied this change, the disadvantage -if there is one- apparently isn't nearly as significant as it seemed it might have been.

As far as it being "better", i dunno. You still have to go through that process that's a little more involved than keyboard.
Oh I didn't say it was better, I just said I would rather play mouse in terms of thermo. I don't know if it truely is better or worse, but I do know based on how I react to thermo I personally would do better with mouse control in regards to thermo. Think in the end we will chalk this up to a tie and say GG mouse, your more balanced but you still have a cursor and way superior aim :P
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  #215  
Old 04-04-2011, 08:54 PM
Strong Coffee Strong Coffee is offline
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same as play quake1234 or ehm CS with only keybord
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  #216  
Old 04-06-2011, 08:13 PM
CidHighwind CidHighwind is offline
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I'm an avid Keyboard user for Altitude. I tried mouse once, and it took about 1 minute to be good enough with mouse to get top K/D in a game.
Step Herp) Point at plane
Step Derp) EZ-mode target line
Step Profit) Fire ze missiles
(Firing with mouse buttons, accelerating with keyboard keys, steering with mouse.)

Admittedly, using reverse took an extra 5 minutes to get down well enough.

In short, Mouse = EZ-mode with target line / crosshair, give it to KB users or remove it from mouse, it's an obvious balance disruption for people who prefer one control scheme over another.

I'm still a Keyboard user because it's more fun and takes more skill than point-and-click.
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  #217  
Old 04-07-2011, 02:05 AM
Boko Boko is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CidHighwind View Post
I'm an avid Keyboard user for Altitude. I tried mouse once, and it took about 1 minute to be good enough with mouse to get top K/D in a game.
Step Herp) Point at plane
Step Derp) EZ-mode target line
Step Profit) Fire ze missiles
(Firing with mouse buttons, accelerating with keyboard keys, steering with mouse.)

Admittedly, using reverse took an extra 5 minutes to get down well enough.

In short, Mouse = EZ-mode with target line / crosshair, give it to KB users or remove it from mouse, it's an obvious balance disruption for people who prefer one control scheme over another.

I'm still a Keyboard user because it's more fun and takes more skill than point-and-click.
YEEHAA CID IS ON THE FORUMS

And he's spreading WORDS OF WISDOM!
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  #218  
Old 06-06-2012, 06:57 PM
blln4lyf blln4lyf is offline
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Just for the laugh, anyone else find it funny that this thread got to 6 pages to discuss how mouse aiming was OP due to the cross hair and after the nerfs to mouse the aiming advantage of mouse was not adjusted at all?
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  #219  
Old 06-06-2012, 07:49 PM
leggomyeggo leggomyeggo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blln4lyf View Post
Just for the laugh, anyone else find it funny that this thread got to 6 pages to discuss how mouse aiming was OP due to the cross hair and after the nerfs to mouse the aiming advantage of mouse was not adjusted at all?
no, not really. thanks for asking though!
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