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  #1  
Old 03-20-2011, 02:08 AM
carstairs carstairs is offline
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Default ball_hardcourt: Keep?




I'll try to stay as objective as possible. This was many of the bladder players' first times on hardcourt if the time it took us all to enter the match is to be believed, and there were a number of complaints.
-Map is too bright
-Too many powerups (I can vouch for that, I could always pick one up)
-Poor layout/design. Teams had a lot of trouble punching it in, and things had a tendency to cluster up. Additionally, it was very bottom heavy, with very little action up top.

We did stop complaining about 10 minutes in, which left another 20 minutes to play. Hopefully this game was something of an outlier, but there was literally no praise for the map for the duration of the match.

Anyone else who has experience with the map, what do you think? Should it be kept?
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  #2  
Old 03-20-2011, 02:16 AM
sunshineduck sunshineduck is offline
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I think the layout is pretty great, honestly. We played a long one as well for our first hardcourt experience, but it was also a 6-5 game and it seemed to go quicker once people realized that you didn't always have to go bottom. I think the orientation of the objects as well as the unfamiliarity of the map makes it feel like it's optimal to fly that way subliminally, but really going up is extremely effective. As people get used to the layout I think that the strategy will develop. Since you don't know the layout of the map like the back of your hand yet, you fly the way that requires the least knowledge of the layout.

I agree that the background is probably too bright. That can be fixed pretty easily, I think. Don't know about the too many powerups argument, I didn't really think too much of it in my first couple playthroughs.
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  #3  
Old 03-20-2011, 02:20 AM
VipMattMan VipMattMan is offline
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Map is waaaaay too bright. Anything that actually forces you to turn down the brightness of your monitor to play = a no go imo.

Once the brightness is fixed maybe we can give it another shot and consider the layout, but right now when i play it all i can think about is the headache i get.
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  #4  
Old 03-20-2011, 02:52 AM
matrin matrin is offline
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yes please fix the brightness and lol i had 18 kills in that pic from ping :P
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  #5  
Old 03-20-2011, 04:40 AM
Mt.Vesuvius Mt.Vesuvius is offline
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This is sparta
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  #6  
Old 03-20-2011, 05:40 AM
drunkguava drunkguava is offline
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def too bright, and wayyyy too many powerups.
i'll agree to holdoff on making a call on the layout until i've tested it more.
but if we could get the brightness adjusted and maybe a couple powerups removed first that'd be great. Is nikon around?
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  #7  
Old 03-20-2011, 07:06 AM
Nikon Nikon is offline
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Sure thing guava, I'll try to get a new one out sometime this week, but no I'm not really around. Haven't played in about 20 days.

What PU's do you want removed?
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  #8  
Old 03-20-2011, 08:39 AM
ONeilcool ONeilcool is offline
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I don't know what it is about the level, but something about it just makes the games go wayyy too long. I think its just the sheer size of it. The size plus spawn points being in a good position to be defensive it just makes the game drag much longer then usual. Personally I don't like the length and would be fine with the map if you could find a way to shorten the games.
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  #9  
Old 03-20-2011, 11:23 AM
Tekn0 Tekn0 is offline
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Even -I- got to a neary 90 kills on this map. That really really says something about this map.

Please remove it from ladder, or at least fix the map of it's issues (too bright, and too large).

This was custom vote stopped with 100% yesterday so that really does say a lot about it.
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  #10  
Old 03-20-2011, 01:24 PM
Kuja900 Kuja900 is offline
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What jerk keeps playing with the map pool, nearly every decision made recently about the pool has been complained about and for good reasons.

Last edited by Kuja900; 03-20-2011 at 01:54 PM.
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  #11  
Old 03-20-2011, 01:36 PM
Urpee Urpee is offline
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I see some goodness in the map.

But here is how I see it: This is a map with potential, but it's not ready for ladder. The spawn points are too close to the goals for defense with insufficient approach paths for defenders making this map one that will lead to long games (~30 minutes).

The color was fine for me but I can see why people think it's too bright. The most sensitive eyes should decide this.

Also the number of extras to pick up is slightly on the high side. Ultimately the map needs testing for play time and geometrically adjusted before hitting ladder I think.
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  #12  
Old 03-20-2011, 04:18 PM
porpus porpus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urpee View Post
But here is how I see it: This is a map with potential, but it's not ready for ladder. The spawn points are too close to the goals for defense with insufficient approach paths for defenders making this map one that will lead to long games (~30 minutes).
This is really the major problem. When I lasted played we had multiple good pushes where we'd wipe out the majority of the opposing team, but by the time we flew quarter of the way across the map, the team had respawned right on top of the the base.

I think if you angle the spawn farther away from the goal the game should go quicker. Otherwise I think it's a decent layout and I agree with SSD that the top side is far underused at this point.
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  #13  
Old 03-20-2011, 06:29 PM
sunshineduck sunshineduck is offline
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several points:

1. I agree that the brightness should be turned down ASAP.
2. The powerups that should be removed are likely the ones right by the spawns.
3. Those complaining about the size of the map should note that it's actually around 3000 pixels in length, whereas planepark and snow are both in the 4500 range. They are similar in height.
4. I disagree that there should be any major change to the layout until there has been a larger sample size of games. As I've said, the fact that the layout of the map is still largely a mystery at only 5-6 games played on ladder is what's causing those huge clusters at the bottom of the map - that's where players gravitate to on unfamiliar territory.
5. Kuja, I hope you're aware of the fact that this is the first change to the map pool since January 3rd, with that change being one that was voted on by the community. The fact of the matter is that exactly two people have expressed directly to me that they disliked volcano so much that they thought it should never be on ladder. Those two people are you and cannibalsock. You are also the only person who has told me that tbd_chess was ready for ladder. Just because I did not follow your desires and put in the maps that you personally adore does not mean I am a jerk. Your personal dislike of tbd_mayhem and enjoyment of tbd_middleground is not more influential than the fact that 90% of the time middleground came up on the ladder random rotation someone called a vote stop. If you don't want to play volcano, then don't play when people call custom random votes. Nobody's holding you at gunpoint forcing you to play.
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  #14  
Old 03-20-2011, 10:17 PM
ONeilcool ONeilcool is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunshineduck View Post
several points:

3. Those complaining about the size of the map should note that it's actually around 3000 pixels in length, whereas planepark and snow are both in the 4500 range. They are similar in height.
4. I disagree that there should be any major change to the layout until there has been a larger sample size of games. As I've said, the fact that the layout of the map is still largely a mystery at only 5-6 games played on ladder is what's causing those huge clusters at the bottom of the map - that's where players gravitate to on unfamiliar territory.
You can't just look at the map size and say its smaller therefore its not a problem. Look at snow and planepark, the actual PLAYABLE area. Both of those maps have a large amount of room that is covered by wall. Snow has the property of a large area behind each goal that makes the map seem bigger then it actually is. If you measure goal to goal hardcourt they about equal length. Also the ceilings are brought down on both of those maps while hard court uses virtually the entire height of the map. The thing that really makes the map seem larger is the spawn points, its hard to continue an attack an ally is making when your spawn is so close to your goal.

On both snow and planepark the flyable paths at any even given point is about 3, high, middle, and low. On hardcourt there are about 6, three on the bottom, two in the middle, and 1 on top. Since you spawn high the top gets clogged easily forcing players to clear low. This is true on any map really, most of the game on any map is played on the bottom becasue thats the safest way to clear the ball.

hardcourt uses every inch of the map making the sheer playspace bigger then any (popular) map I've seen. After looking into it more I can see it being solved in 2 ways.

1. Bring the ceiling down and floor up to lower the average height of the map. This would obviously also demand change in the obstacles to accommodate for the lost space, but that would be left up to the designer of the map if they take my suggestion. This would make players use the top more because it wouldn't be so far from the bottom and make it a more viable strategy.

2. Bring the spawns closer to the midde (and lower along with the ceiling if you implement suggestion 1) to increase offensive capabilities and decrease defensive ones.
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  #15  
Old 03-20-2011, 10:26 PM
elxir elxir is offline
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lol the maps been up for months and nobody offers constructive criticism till now

superb

it's peculiar, because i've never had a *long* game on hardcourt on either dojo or AIR, so i'm not sure what to make of it so far. additionally, everyone on those servers have generally told me they like the map a lot

very peculiar

Last edited by elxir; 03-20-2011 at 10:30 PM.
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  #16  
Old 03-21-2011, 12:17 AM
ONeilcool ONeilcool is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elxir View Post
lol the maps been up for months and nobody offers constructive criticism till now

superb

it's peculiar, because i've never had a *long* game on hardcourt on either dojo or AIR, so i'm not sure what to make of it so far. additionally, everyone on those servers have generally told me they like the map a lot

very peculiar
It's because it was just added to the ladder random so it comes up and forces people to play it.
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  #17  
Old 03-21-2011, 12:59 AM
Tekn0 Tekn0 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elxir View Post
lol the maps been up for months and nobody offers constructive criticism till now

superb

it's peculiar, because i've never had a *long* game on hardcourt on either dojo or AIR, so i'm not sure what to make of it so far. additionally, everyone on those servers have generally told me they like the map a lot

very peculiar
This is because playing maps on pubs sometimes doesn't present the right picture. Atmosphere, for instance, is one such map (at least before it got its final modifications).
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  #18  
Old 03-21-2011, 07:48 AM
Nikon Nikon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elxir View Post
lol the maps been up for months and nobody offers constructive criticism till now

superb

it's peculiar, because i've never had a *long* game on hardcourt on either dojo or AIR, so i'm not sure what to make of it so far. additionally, everyone on those servers have generally told me they like the map a lot

very peculiar
Yeah I know, lol. It's like no one cares for a long long time and then WHAM, butt loads of feedback.

So lix are you okay with me making it less bright and removing the PU's next to the spawns?
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  #19  
Old 03-21-2011, 03:27 PM
sunshineduck sunshineduck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikon View Post
Yeah I know, lol. It's like no one cares for a long long time and then WHAM, butt loads of feedback.

So lix are you okay with me making it less bright and removing the PU's next to the spawns?
I added it to the ladder random rotation.

does nobody read my changelogs?
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  #20  
Old 03-21-2011, 05:01 PM
andy andy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunshineduck View Post
I added it to the ladder random rotation.

does nobody read my changelogs?
I do, but i dont think nobodyhome reads them.
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  #21  
Old 03-21-2011, 05:40 PM
sunshineduck sunshineduck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ONeilcool View Post
You can't just look at the map size and say its smaller therefore its not a problem. Look at snow and planepark, the actual PLAYABLE area. Both of those maps have a large amount of room that is covered by wall. Snow has the property of a large area behind each goal that makes the map seem bigger then it actually is. If you measure goal to goal hardcourt they about equal length. Also the ceilings are brought down on both of those maps while hard court uses virtually the entire height of the map. The thing that really makes the map seem larger is the spawn points, its hard to continue an attack an ally is making when your spawn is so close to your goal.

On both snow and planepark the flyable paths at any even given point is about 3, high, middle, and low. On hardcourt there are about 6, three on the bottom, two in the middle, and 1 on top. Since you spawn high the top gets clogged easily forcing players to clear low. This is true on any map really, most of the game on any map is played on the bottom becasue thats the safest way to clear the ball.

hardcourt uses every inch of the map making the sheer playspace bigger then any (popular) map I've seen. After looking into it more I can see it being solved in 2 ways.

1. Bring the ceiling down and floor up to lower the average height of the map. This would obviously also demand change in the obstacles to accommodate for the lost space, but that would be left up to the designer of the map if they take my suggestion. This would make players use the top more because it wouldn't be so far from the bottom and make it a more viable strategy.

2. Bring the spawns closer to the midde (and lower along with the ceiling if you implement suggestion 1) to increase offensive capabilities and decrease defensive ones.
actually, after taking a longer look at both maps your assertions about planepark are completely incorrect. in fact, I think the goals on hardcourt are actually pushed further forward than on planepark. in addition, the routes are extremely similar to planepark. saying that there are 3 lanes in the bottom is extremely silly. just because the obstacles divide the lane into multiple areas does not mean there are multiple lanes - are you saying that there are actually two lanes at the bottom of planepark? the issue, again, doesn't lie with the size of the map, it's with the playstyle. the way people are attacking the map is very similar to if people literally only used the bottom route of planepark the entire game. you can imagine how long games would take like that.

it's definitely not anywhere near the size of doodle, which was still terrible after several dozen playthroughs. iirc, people didn't particularly enjoy the layout of planepark when it was first introduced to ladder, and now it's one of the most beloved maps. i think we should give people time to get used to the map before making any drastic changes.
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  #22  
Old 03-21-2011, 06:28 PM
elxir elxir is offline
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nikon, do whatever. still your grahpics
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  #23  
Old 03-21-2011, 08:11 PM
Nikon Nikon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunshineduck View Post
I added it to the ladder random rotation.

does nobody read my changelogs?
Yes I read them ssd, and I know that it was added. I know it's the reason it's getting a ton of feedback but I still find it funny.
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  #24  
Old 03-21-2011, 08:35 PM
ONeilcool ONeilcool is offline
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I made a very quick illustration of my too many lanes point here. You can see the paths are much simplier and in my opinion better routes on planepark while the story is much different for hardcourt.

However the biggest problem while looking at this is how the spawns on hardcourt just directly cut off every route. This is what causes the game to go to long because it makes defense easier. On planepark you can see the spawn is behind the end of the routes so it is harder to defend leading to faster games.

Of course I'm going under the assuming shorter is better, if people LIKE games being three times as long, by all means the map is perfect.
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  #25  
Old 03-21-2011, 11:35 PM
drunkguava drunkguava is offline
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Looking at the map like that is really helpful. Moving the spawns towards the middle of the map seems like a good suggestion.

Someone once said to picture the spawns like big fans that drive action away. That seems like exactly what's happening here.

Also noticeable is that the goal area is kind of massive and open. I can't decide if that really favors the defense though..

Last edited by drunkguava; 03-21-2011 at 11:39 PM.
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  #26  
Old 03-22-2011, 12:03 AM
Urpee Urpee is offline
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The open area will become more of a disadvantage for defense if the spawns are further away. Right now it's fast to get to any entry points or at least into shot lines quickly, so the fact that the area is open just means that defender can easily fill that space.

At least in the few games I have seen that's what happened. You'll see heavies circle the area and the rest of defense swamp it. The openess of it all had little impact because you just don't get an uncontested shot.

But with further spawns there may be some argument for having some obstruction in the open space to make fewer of the approach angles have direct shots.
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  #27  
Old 03-22-2011, 01:22 AM
elxir elxir is offline
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"too many lanes" and "long games" seem like contradictory statements
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  #28  
Old 03-22-2011, 01:24 AM
Tekn0 Tekn0 is offline
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People custom vote stop tournament this several times even to the point of no longer using random.

If that isn't a reason enough to remove it from ladder until at the very least the brightness is fixed I don't know what is.
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  #29  
Old 03-22-2011, 01:48 AM
ONeilcool ONeilcool is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elxir View Post
"too many lanes" and "long games" seem like contradictory statements
It is, the lanes thing doesn't really have anything to do with the game length. Just a preference, most popular maps have less lanes and I think people like it when they have less.

I was going for point "The map is huge, because it is so huge the design ended up with all these lanes. If it wasn't so big it would't have all these lanes". So multiple lanes == bigger map == longer game times, but multiple lanes != longer games necessarily.
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  #30  
Old 03-22-2011, 02:32 AM
sunshineduck sunshineduck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ONeilcool View Post
It is, the lanes thing doesn't really have anything to do with the game length. Just a preference, most popular maps have less lanes and I think people like it when they have less.

I was going for point "The map is huge, because it is so huge the design ended up with all these lanes. If it wasn't so big it would't have all these lanes". So multiple lanes == bigger map == longer game times, but multiple lanes != longer games necessarily.
you really are just proving my point for me while trying to argue against it.

i've already disproved that the map is too long. the increased playable area in the height of the map is in the top area of the map - the area that currently is being underused. again, i'm stressing that the fact that matches take so long is purely a playstyle issue. nobody's taking it high, so it's extremely similar to people playing planepark but only clearing it and pushing through the bottom lane.
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  #31  
Old 03-22-2011, 02:52 AM
Ribilla Ribilla is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunshineduck View Post
nobody's taking it high, so it's extremely similar to people playing planepark but only clearing it and pushing through the bottom lane.
People are always so complementary of nobo.
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  #32  
Old 03-22-2011, 03:59 AM
ONeilcool ONeilcool is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunshineduck View Post
you really are just proving my point for me while trying to argue against it.

i've already disproved that the map is too long. the increased playable area in the height of the map is in the top area of the map - the area that currently is being underused. again, i'm stressing that the fact that matches take so long is purely a playstyle issue. nobody's taking it high, so it's extremely similar to people playing planepark but only clearing it and pushing through the bottom lane.
Look at the distant between the bottle lane and the middle lane in planepark vs the bottom lane and middle lane in hardcourt. It's much easier to take the ball higher on planepark then on hardcourt.

I disagree that it play style is a problem. People will learn how to score better with time but they will also learn how to defend better.

I argue that the positioning of the spawn points is the main issue. Taking the ball high is simply going too close to their spawn point, there will usually someone be spawning there to stop you, This is why the the small lane on the top of planepark is hardly ever used as a route to score, its simply too hard to get though with people spawning right on top of you. hardcourt is no different except its like that for every lane not just the top most one.
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  #33  
Old 03-22-2011, 04:06 AM
Spartan Spartan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ONeilcool View Post
I argue that the positioning of the spawn points is the main issue. Taking the ball high is simply going too close to their spawn point, there will usually someone be spawning there to stop you, This is why the the small lane on the top of planepark is hardly ever used as a route to score, its simply too hard to get though with people spawning right on top of you.
Just to clarify: Have we agreed that the spawn locations are probably the main reason for the long games on this map? Because honestly I feel that's the only problem. The multiple lanes and height are no problem at all - it's just the short amount of time needed to get from spawn to goal
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  #34  
Old 03-22-2011, 05:36 AM
ONeilcool ONeilcool is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
Just to clarify: Have we agreed that the spawn locations are probably the main reason for the long games on this map? Because honestly I feel that's the only problem. The multiple lanes and height are no problem at all - it's just the short amount of time needed to get from spawn to goal
Well clearly the the spawn points make the game longer then the average game, but the real question is does it make it TOO long.

sunshine is arguing once people play the map more they will start to take the ball higher and thus scoring making the game shorter and it won't be too bad. I believe he doesn't feel the need for any changes in the map design wise.

I disagree with this and think the design of the map does not reward taking the ball high and people won't be able to simply play better and shorten the game. I am under opinion the we should move the spawn points opinion.

I also think the map is a little big, but after playing with it a little more I can admit its not too big. The spawn points just make the flight from spawn to opposite goal so the map felt bigger when trying to score.

Last edited by ONeilcool; 03-22-2011 at 08:03 AM.
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  #35  
Old 03-22-2011, 02:40 PM
VipMattMan VipMattMan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunshineduck View Post
i've already disproved that the map is too long. the increased playable area in the height of the map is in the top area of the map - the area that currently is being underused. again, i'm stressing that the fact that matches take so long is purely a playstyle issue. nobody's taking it high, so it's extremely similar to people playing planepark but only clearing it and pushing through the bottom lane.

I don't know if that's necessarily the reason games are lasting so long. There's much more protected space in the middle of the map which is less conducive to spamming. With multiple lanes in the same general space it's also harder to make a call on which exact lane a ball carrier is on unless you actually see him. Defenders learned to play more tentatively and tend to camp the area around the goal space.

This led to it being relatively easy for me to move the ball to the goal area, but having to face the entire defending team + an easy-access spawn point + a powerup.

The result? More ping-ponging than you get in other maps.

Last edited by VipMattMan; 03-22-2011 at 02:43 PM.
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  #36  
Old 03-22-2011, 07:42 PM
elxir elxir is offline
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how many lanes does darkwar (G.O.A.T.) have?
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  #37  
Old 03-22-2011, 10:05 PM
VipMattMan VipMattMan is offline
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Originally Posted by elxir View Post
how many lanes does darkwar (G.O.A.T.) have?
Darkwar has fewer lanes, they're all more easily readable, and much more easily spammable. There's much more open space and the flow of the map is entirely different.

Not sure of point.
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  #38  
Old 03-22-2011, 11:25 PM
carstairs carstairs is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
Just to clarify: Have we agreed that the spawn locations are probably the main reason for the long games on this map? Because honestly I feel that's the only problem. The multiple lanes and height are no problem at all - it's just the short amount of time needed to get from spawn to goal
I agree that spawns need to be fixed, but I'm going to abstain on the layout until that's taken care of. I wasn't that fond of the layout but it doesn't have to be the new darkwar.
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  #39  
Old 03-23-2011, 01:49 AM
elxir elxir is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VipMattMan View Post
Darkwar has fewer lanes, they're all more easily readable, and much more easily spammable. There's much more open space and the flow of the map is entirely different.

Not sure of point.
everything you just said implies that defense should struggle on hardcourt, not offense


upon some thought, i can agree with the spawn location as being too close to the goal. no other map is quite that close to goal except asteroids.

Last edited by elxir; 03-23-2011 at 01:52 AM.
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Old 03-23-2011, 02:27 AM
VipMattMan VipMattMan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elxir View Post
everything you just said implies that defense should struggle on hardcourt, not offense


upon some thought, i can agree with the spawn location as being too close to the goal. no other map is quite that close to goal except asteroids.
If you go back to my post previous to that one, you'll see that my opinion was that it was fairly easy to move the ball from goal area to goal area.

Once you get to the opposite goal the map layout creates a circumstance where you face a full defense with both a powerup and player spawn right there. The defense struggles on hardcourt right up until you reach the goal area, where the defending team typically has full dominance.

A solution to that would be to remove/move the powerup next to the goal, and make the spawn less accessible to the goal area.

A balance on the offensive dominance of the middle area would be to alter some of the obstructions to encourage defenders towards the center of the map. That might also have the effect of thinning out some of the defenders who tend to camp the goal area. In fact, if the middle area was a little more open, you may not have to make all the alterations to the spawn and powerup.

Last edited by VipMattMan; 03-23-2011 at 02:30 AM.
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