TBD Tournament after SL

[Ingbo]

Originally Posted by Kuja900

In reality it is a captain's job to make his team as strong as they can. Doing anything less is just not being competitive.

i fully agree with u. the problem is that this just isnt working for our community because there arent enough top players to make the leagues interesting at this point if we keep doing this. thats why balln proposed this entire thing and im backing it. apl at this point just isnt interesting anymore.... so lets change the way we compete?

id way rather have fun competative games, than 2 clans being so much better than every other clan that every game played against any other team but sammich is uninteresting.



you could keep the clans on the side imo and arrange scrims or clan tournaments too but to have this as our only coompetative scene now is just so dull. literary the only interesting game i have to look forward to in apl now is the finals of winner brackets in playoffs and the re-final after we or sammich (and we as it now stands) beat loser bracket finals, which we will (and i really dont mean to sound full of myself here but eveyrone already knows that we will beat KLF on the 15th) and its just not fun... not even the group stages against sammich are interesting cause so many teams go thorugh to the playoffs that it doesnt even matter. so at this point there are only 2 games i look forward to in apl and its just not a good way to run a league. im sure a lot of sammich players and a lot of other players in other clans agree on this. i really dont understand why anyone would disagree tbh

[Kuja900]

I'll participate in Balln's tourney, we will see how it goes. I also kind of like Andy's idea about an 8 max roster cap for apl.

[ex~]

participation is usually the problem with these deals, people can sign up all they want, but how many will show?

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by ex~

participation is usually the problem with these deals, people can sign up all they want, but how many will show?

It will really hinge on how good/motivated the captains balln gets for this event are. People who will actually remind/tell/force their team to show.

[A Nipple]

Really we ought to try and encourage more new players to get involved with competitive alty. It might mean spending a bit more time in pubs and telling people about it but As it is now its not very often a newcomer joins a tbd clan.

Everyone deciding to play with sams an flb sucks cause it was becoming more competitive with the the players mentioned in the previous posts who moved clans. For those that moved because they wanted to win APL its kind of funny because the time anchor is what gave stronger clans the edge over their clans. But for some strange reason everyone still moved to stronger clans when the anchor was shortened rather than saw it as an opportunity for their clans to win APL.

As it stands now I am tempted to leave fLb even though I love people in it. Purely on the basis I dont get played and we have silly 3 randa setups, no scrims and generally too many OP players making competitive alty boring.

[Ingbo]

randa obv needs massive rework in general or well never be able to get rid off 3 randa setups lol. like theres just no way to compete with it, u can either laser or trickster and thats about it

[A Nipple]

Originally Posted by Ingbo

randa obv needs massive rework in general or well never be able to get rid off 3 randa setups lol. like theres just no way to compete with it, u can either laser or trickster and thats about it

imo competitive alty was may more appealing and harder to become significantly more pro than others when the 2 explodet 1 bomber 2 lights setup was generally the staple setup.

[Kuja900]

Randa is sooo op

[Ingbo]

dont really think u can cap lvl or pro'ness in any plane. obv theres a huge skill difference between various randas too. id agree that randa needs fixing in order to make it less viable overall tho. problem is i have NO IDEA how to do this and i really doubt anyone else really knows how to fix this either

they way it looks and has looked to me for some time now, which is obv more clear now than ever when sammich and flb both are using 3 randa setups in every game they play vs eachother (if im not misinformed 2,3 at least) is that the team that has the best randas or the randas that are actively playing the best, will just shread the other team.

[A Nipple]

Originally Posted by Ingbo

dont really think u can cap lvl or pro'ness in any plane. obv theres a huge skill difference between various randas too. id agree that randa needs fixing in order to make it less viable overall tho. problem is i have NO IDEA how to do this and i really doubt anyone else really knows how to fix this either

they way it looks and has looked to me for some time now, which is obv more clear now than ever when sammich and flb both are using 3 randa setups in every game they play vs eachother (if im not misinformed 2,3 at least) is that the team that has the best randas or the randas that are actively playing the best, will just shread the other team.

I think the we need to undo some of the updates until the planes are similar as they were around 2009/2010 with the exception of anything that is obviously necessary e.g. time anchor shortened, bip HC double pierce etc etc

edit: xplodets where considered the 'OP' plane. its strange that now the randa is the fastest plane, easiest to play (imo), and causes such a significant amount of damage in such short space of time AND is best plane to bomb run.

[Ingbo]

Originally Posted by A Nipple

I think the we need to undo some of the updates until the planes are similar as they were around 2009/2010 with the exception of anything that is obviously necessary e.g. time anchor shortened, bip HC double pierce etc etc

im pretty sure laser and trickster are actually weaker now than they were then (correct me if im wrong) the thing is it just took ppl time to realize how strong these planes were compared to other planes which is what we are seeing now. this might not be correct but im pretty sure there has been 0 buffs to either of these planes since 2009

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by Ingbo

im pretty sure laser and trickster are actually weaker now than they were then (correct me if im wrong) the thing is it just took ppl time to realize how strong these planes were compared to other planes which is what we are seeing now. this might not be correct but im pretty sure there has been 0 buffs to either of these planes since 2009

Laser from early 2009 was like six times longer then it is now, possible even eleven.

[A Nipple]

Originally Posted by Ingbo

im pretty sure laser and trickster are actually weaker now than they were then (correct me if im wrong) the thing is it just took ppl time to realize how strong these planes were compared to other planes which is what we are seeing now. this might not be correct but im pretty sure there has been 0 buffs to either of these planes since 2009

It might well be the case. But thats a perfect example of one of the more necessary nerfs.
I remember kuja saying to me once around 2009 that explodets an loopys were the hardest plane to master and bomber/randa were the easiest to learn. Also, the 'time' it took for people to realise this was when no one bothered to learn xplodets and loopys to the heights of their skill ceiling thus singling out OPness of the randa.

I think as the people became worse at alty and the likes of eth, eso, zid, tyr, cloud, bob didnt play so much, more new players began to moan about setups and the balancing began to cater for the players skill levels rather than the player have to learn the plane effectively.

[Ingbo]

are u really assuming that ppl now arent as good as the ppl who quit 2-3 years ago? maybe im misunderstanding u

randa doesnt have a low skill ceiling. this is a MASSIVE misconception amongst ppl. randa can instantly 180 soon as it likes, making it so viable for agressive play compared to other planes. that is not = a low skill ceiling tho its just = making other planes not as viable. like i said earlier: theres no skill ceiling to ANY plane. at least not that it would be interesting to even discuss it because in order to reach a 'skill ceiling' for a plane ud have to reach an understanding-the-game-ceiling first so ud have to understand the game 100% to be able to play any given plane to the fullest of their potential and given that we will never be able to show any proof of how to understand this game perfectly, discussing skill ceiling is pretty irrelevant to me, since effectively and for all we can assume, there is no skill ceiling.


randas dmg combined with its viability of uber agressive play compared to other planes, while being very viable at defensive play as well, makes it just more viable than other planes.

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by A Nipple

It might well be the case. But thats a perfect example of one of the more necessary nerfs.
I remember kuja saying to me once around 2009 that explodets an loopys were the hardest plane to master and bomber/randa were the easiest to learn. Also, the 'time' it took for people to realise this was when no one bothered to learn xplodets and loopys to the heights of their skill ceiling thus singling out OPness of the randa.

I think as the people became worse at alty and the likes of eth, eso, zid, tyr, cloud, bob didnt play so much, more new players began to moan about setups and the balancing began to cater for the players skill levels rather than the player have to learn the plane effectively.

Nip this is just wrong I don't really know what else to say. People from 2009 compared to the people now for the most part ****ing suck. People back then just had not experienced the game enough to really say anything meaningful about balance, and the vets from that time simply didn't care.

[A Nipple]

Originally Posted by Ingbo

are u really assuming that ppl now arent as good as the ppl who quit 2-3 years ago? maybe im misunderstanding u

I think the people now are good. But good at different planes from 2-3 years ago when the games in APL were a lot more intense and satisfying to be part of.

[wolf'j'max]

To be honest i just totally forgot 3 was in qq and aya was in fLb.
And about kuja, adressing that he is supposedly a dick is retarded. If you don't like him then you don't, i'm sure there's a lot of people who dislike me, but who cares?

The point is that stuffing 2 teams full with talent will just kill all of the competition.

@Kuja, ofcourse you and mike dd a great job maintaining the team, but your reputation dating 3 years back and a couple of wins sure add up to that. I'm pretty sure that because of your reputation (and mike's too) a lot of players will blindly accept ypur request to join your clan. Being the est ofthe best is very important for certain players. And even if they can't solely be the best, then they want to be a part of them.

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by A Nipple

I think the people now are good. But good at different planes from 2-3 years ago when the games in APL were a lot more intense and satisfying to be part of.

Best apl ever was definitely the first one. The epic 5-6~ hour finals going to game 7 was intense as ****.

[Ingbo]

randa punishes mistakes way more than other planes. thats probably why the games feel less interesting these days, which i do def agree with. since a randa can take so much teritorial presence (in lack of a better term) at any point soon as anyone is the least bit overextended or makes the least bit of a mistake ur team will instantly get punished for it. thats probably why games these days seem more dull and onesided than they did back then, cause top randas will just punish ppl that fast and i agree that its fkn boring as hell honestly. id love to be able to play bomber or loopy or anything like that both in apl and in ladder but i really feel like i cant compete if im not playing trickster or laser because they are just so fkn viable compared to other planes

[Ingbo]

Originally Posted by wolf'j'max

To be honest i just totally forgot 3 was in qq and aya was in fLb.
And about kuja, adressing that he is supposedly a dick is retarded. If you don't like him then you don't, i'm sure there's a lot of people who dislike me, but who cares?

The point is that stuffing 2 teams full with talent will just kill all of the competition.

@Kuja, ofcourse you and mike dd a great job maintaining the team, but your reputation dating 3 years back and a couple of wins sure add up to that. I'm pretty sure that because of your reputation (and mike's too) a lot of players will blindly accept ypur request to join your clan. Being the est ofthe best is very important for certain players. And even if they can't solely be the best, then they want to be a part of them.

well some type of asumption had to be made about ur complete blindness to estimate the situation correctly no? not so retarded imo.

[wolf'j'max]

Seems like i skipped a page, sorry to bring up the previous conversation. On the other hand i'd like to see karl/lamster's opinion on this because we can't change the game with updates just to get competitive TBD back up. There's a lot of pubs with TBD around 24/7 so for casual playeres theres no problem.

[Kuja900]

Replacing the randa completely with a new plane that doesn't have a 180 degree turn is my number 1 thing I want to happen, but I doubt people (especially those who actually play randa) would go along with that.

[Ingbo]

i like playing randa. theres gotta be another way to fix it than something that harsh. maybe add like a cooldown on 180 skill to remove some of randas teritorial problems.

i have to say tho i dont really get why this is being discussed here? do ppl actually believe that if flb and sammich didnt play randa other teams would be as good? i feel like there are better 'forums' to discuss this topic than this actual thread.

[wolf'j'max]

I'd be up for that, but such game changing updates will most likely not happen

(yes i like to make fast assumptions. Sorry if it bothers you)

[Ingbo]

thats okay. at least ur willing to change the way u look at things instead of starting like a 2 page discussion with me about it which was what i was afraid of

[A Nipple]

Originally Posted by Ingbo

randa punishes mistakes way more than other planes. thats probably why the games feel less interesting these days, which i do def agree with. since a randa can take so much teritorial presence (in lack of a better term) at any point soon as anyone is the least bit overextended or makes the least bit of a mistake ur team will instantly get punished for it. thats probably why games these days seem more dull and onesided than they did back then, cause top randas till just punish ppl that fast and i agree that its fkn boring as hell honestly. id love to be able to play bomber or loopy or anything like that both in apl and in ladder but i really feel like i cant compete if im not playing trickster or laser because they are just so fkn viable compared to other planes

The only reason I learnt laser was so I could go higher in my ladder rating than bomber would let.

Heavy planes should be the ones that punish lights. Because light planes have the advantage of being faster and more agile thus making it easier to correct their mistake OR escape to gain back health.

On top of being faster and more agile they shoot their fire power at faster speeds delivering large amounts of damage. Watching the sams fLb game on sunday was ridiculous. Randa spam was proving more effective than explodet or bomber spam which are considered to be the planes that are used to control the map.

IMO balancing has been adjusted to suit ball more than TBD (just putting that out there)

p.s. yea this should be in another catergory lol

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by A Nipple

IMO balancing has been adjusted to suit ball more than TBD (just putting that out there)

Do you have any updates that you could point to in order to validate that statement? I am curious.

[Ingbo]

honestly i think theres just been a lack of balance overall because of a lack of interest, probably both from the players to help karl and lam to do this correctly and also probably a lot from a lack of actual knowledge since we are a small community we dont get a ton of input at a very high lvl what actually needs rework, and maybe from karl and lam too because they are working on other stuff or whatever.

[A Nipple]

Originally Posted by Ingbo

honestly i think theres just been a lack of balance overall because of a lack of interest, probably both from the players to help karl and lam to do this correctly and also probably a lot from a lack of actual knowledge since we are a small community we dont get a ton of input at a very high lvl what actually needs rework, and maybe from karl and lam too because they are working on other stuff or whatever.

I dont know if its fact. It just seems logical that whatever game mode is thriving more will get the balancing done in that game modes favour. I am probably wrong its just the way it feels when I play the different game modes at the minute.

[CCN]

think level of play is just too low, hence randas which punish mistakes well are powerful.

[elxir]

did any of you tards ever stop to think that it's a two way street

fLb didn't ****ing chloroform mled and bring him to their secret bunker

obviously the players who left were more interested in playing with their new teams

maybe they don't want to play with you because you aren't fun and/or you act like five year olds

[elxir]

also maybe you shouldn't let teams have a roster that is FOUR TIMES larger than the in-game force

[Disilord]

After reading for the past 20 mins of this thread I have come down to decide that there should be X decisions to make:
1. TBD controversy (fLb and etc)
Both sides of this argument can be defended in numerous amounts of ways, but that isn't going to get anything changed because you are arguing about the PAST. So stop arguing. So far I've decided there are 2 courses of action. Implement a permanent roster cap (meaning no amount of players can be have at any certain time except new clans). OR. Implement more strict tournament roster caps (as Andy suggested).
2. Randa OP controversy
In my opinion, I agree with people saying that randas play style is fun to play compared to other plains. This happens in every game. Everyone circulates to 1 role. To counter this, I would suggest explodet to be buffed. I would also suggest a nerf of laser because any time I play in a pub or tbd, I see a whoring laser that, when questioned how long they had been using laser, say only like 10 rounds. I am not saying this because I hate laser, but because it is truth, in my opinion. The skill level required to play laser is not that great.

[sunshineduck]

let's keep in mind that sammies stole back mat and ex from fro! burn mikesol!

[Ribilla]

Originally Posted by Disilord

2. Randa OP controversy
In my opinion, I agree with people saying that randas play style is fun to play compared to other plains. This happens in every game. Everyone circulates to 1 role. To counter this, I would suggest explodet to be buffed. I would also suggest a nerf of laser because any time I play in a pub or tbd, I see a whoring laser that, when questioned how long they had been using laser, say only like 10 rounds. I am not saying this because I hate laser, but because it is truth, in my opinion. The skill level required to play laser is not that great.

If you want to balance around high level play buffing whale is a stupid idea. A bomber and a recoilless buff are maybe needed. We shouldn't balance around pubs, but I think that laser needs to be made harder without damaging it's skill ceiling. This is the opposite of what the previous patch did.

[Flight 666]

There's only one way to save TBD competitive,

creat a clan system in game,
with schedules..
next games...
and give prizes for the ones who playing actitively in a TEAM. (Like flags etc)

to courage the creation of new clans.

edit: changing clan and abandon your real friends is *** (DMCM) <<<<<< THIS IS WHAT DESTROY TEAMS

[ufo]

in-game clan system + altitude noobleague imo

[XX1]

Originally Posted by Ribilla

If you want to balance around high level play buffing whale is a stupid idea. A bomber and a recoilless buff are maybe needed.

[Flight 666]

Originally Posted by ufo

in-game clan system + altitude noobleague imo

Natural Selection,
if u know what i mean.

[Kuja900]

An in game clan system is ridiculously over due imo. Been clamoring for that one for 3 years now.