Suggestion: Balance game around 6v6 ball

[banana]

The game is currently balanced around 5v5 tbd. As much as I love tbd the game mode is practically dead, with maybe a ladder game starting every month or so if you're lucky. Meanwhile ball seems to be the game mode now played in ladder most nights which the vast majority of the community plays.

I'd prefer not to propose any specific changes as I'm sure there are others with more knowledge, experience and can analyse the statistics with ball mode better than me who can make more informed and fair proposals.

[elixirwithani]

Ball is pretty balanced.

What you're seeing as imbalance in the game is actually a combination of (1) skill disparity amongst players; and (2) map design sometimes favoring certain planes over others (Core is an extremely well-balanced map for all five planes; Snow is extremely good for Explodets but not half bad for others, as examples).

If we were seeing winrates in the 80s-90s it might be a clue as to imbalance, but as it stands the two factors outlined above affect ball more than any plane imbalances.

[Hollywood]

@banana: I am curious as to what troubles you with BALL in regards to its balance issues that you may have? Could you lay down the ones you think are a problem?



In BALL:
- Randa is actually balanced, and not broken. Unless your braiden.
- Whale is much more different than in TBD, because you can't always be in one place, you have to flow with the other team more radically.
- Bomber isn't used for clearing out the whole team, it's used for pressure control.
- Loopy is and always will be a big important role in BALL for ball carrying. EMP is also a big factor in its role because everyone knows it's OP.
- Biplane only {ball}badhomer, {arr}Maleus, and {ball}arty could pull this off. The only people who want to play biplane are tbd players, and that mindset does not work here.

I don't care to much about the history of TBD, but BALL for one has had a deep and rich history with its development towards strategies, and rules. Not to mention its community within altitude.

Small examples like the double bomber setups, to the all loopy ones, and even double randa. It becomes even more complex when you take a look at peoples styles. You have Kuja and Void who only play one side of the fence but it works for them. You have people trying to bring back ACEs Maimers TBD-BALL hybrid style. You have top teams running perfected builds that have been around for over 2 years and easily longer.

Other than that you have styles, tactics and such that have been lost over the years. For example the legendary loopy Brillo who to this day, everyone can agree he does things that no other loopy does or will ever do.

Oh, one more thing, anything you see in ball ladder is false. Most of that stuff does not work in Sky League level play. For example, you can not jump in a randa, and dart for the ball then speed past the enemy team to score a rather quick goal. Not gonna happen.

Originally Posted by elixirwithani

Ball is pretty balanced.

What you're seeing as imbalance in the game is actually a combination of (1) skill disparity amongst players; and (2) map design sometimes favoring certain planes over others (Core is an extremely well-balanced map for all five planes; Snow is extremely good for Explodets but not half bad for others, as examples).

If we were seeing winrates in the 80s-90s it might be a clue as to imbalance, but as it stands the two factors outlined above affect ball more than any plane imbalances.

Lix said something smart. Hes right. You can quote me on this.
Most people suck, and 90% of them are at their "personal skill ceiling"

[banana]

Originally Posted by Hollywood

@banana: I am curious as to what troubles you with BALL in regards to its balance issues that you may have? Could you lay down the ones you think are a problem?

My issues are probably more my opinions and what I feel about the state of the game and others will probably disagree and call me bad but whatever.

1. It feels like multiple emp loopies are essential in every single team composition. Their control of the battlefield and ability to delay pushes feels unparalleled, even compared to whales. This seems especially pronounced in ball because of the short respawn times as even a single emp on the ball carrier will give a lot more time to planes that have died to respawn.

2. As mentioned with whales

you can't always be in one place, you have to flow with the other team more radically.

As whales now often have to be moving out with their team out from cover and defensive positions, once they do move out they seem to be easy targets for emp due to whales poor maneuverability. Personally once hit by an emp I'll often just want to die as quickly as possible to respawn as I'm not going anywhere, and I'll have no energy to plant any mines to actually try and stop the loopy if he decides to chase for the kill.

Also when you do somehow manage to gain enough energy for a mine onto a loopy chasing you when emped, you'll often just fly into the wall as the emp means you can't steer when you get the speed boost from the mine exploding. Rubber hull would help with this, but then you get even less energy regeneration and less ability to try and plant a mine to stop them. It seems a bit of a catch 22 situation apart from 'the stop getting caught by emp you are bad'.

3. Also mentioned is that there are very few successful biplane players

- Biplane only {ball}badhomer, {arr}Maleus, and {ball}arty could pull this off.

It just seems that once again the biplane is lacking somewhere to make it a good solid pick compared to having another type of plane on your team.

I don't know enough about randas to comment about them and haven't played enough bomber to know much about their playstyle in ball.

All I know is the game was balanced around 5v5 tbd, and so there may be a chance that playing 6v6 ball may result in some oddities in terms of balance.

[JWhatever]

Originally Posted by banana

Rubber hull would help with this, but then you get even less energy regeneration and less ability to try and plant a mine to stop them.

Just a by the by, rubber doesn't affect your energy regen.

EDIT: Quote from wiki: "Reduces energy loss and turning debuff from EMP (from wall powerup or Loopy) by 20%. "

-J

[Hollywood]

Originally Posted by banana

1. It feels like multiple emp loopies are essential in every single team composition. Their control of the battlefield and ability to delay pushes feels unparalleled, even compared to whales. This seems especially pronounced in ball because of the short respawn times as even a single emp on the ball carrier will give a lot more time to planes that have died to respawn.

Yes, you are absolutely correct. {ball} used the standard 3 loopy setup in most of our SLs, and I have noticed with our recent scrim with BBQ, they are taking up the 3 loopy setup as well to replace their less active randas (Tomi|Braiden). Now this does relate to the plane, but also I had mentioned the old double randa (2 randa) setup, Which both {ball} and [BBQ] have run at one point. It takes a skill far above what anyone today is willing to learn. So yes, I just said its rather easy to pickup loopy compared to having two beasts run randa together, and show us a beautiful display of passing, and true skill. As it stands today, the only pairs that can pull off the Double Randa are: Shmo/Balln and Tomi/Braiden or Balln/Braiden

My Opinion:
Truthfully I honestly think a cool down nerf on EMP or make it use more energy would be for the best. You will notice many many times, that even when a loopy is pressured and about to die, he can still throw down an EMP. As it stands EMP is not a tactical weapon, but something that encourages you to spam it as many times as possible, and will reward you for that. Also, you are not punished for missing in a loopy, for example in a bomber when you miss to many nades that might just cost you your life.

Originally Posted by banana

2. As mentioned with whales As whales now often have to be moving out with their team out from cover and defensive positions, once they do move out they seem to be easy targets for emp due to whales poor maneuverability. Personally once hit by an emp I'll often just want to die as quickly as possible to respawn as I'm not going anywhere, and I'll have no energy to plant any mines to actually try and stop the loopy if he decides to chase for the kill.

Also when you do somehow manage to gain enough energy for a mine onto a loopy chasing you when emped, you'll often just fly into the wall as the emp means you can't steer when you get the speed boost from the mine exploding. Rubber hull would help with this, but then you get even less energy regeneration and less ability to try and plant a mine to stop them. It seems a bit of a catch 22 situation apart from 'the stop getting caught by emp you are bad'.

Oh a whale topic. :P

Harmonica has taught me many things, two important things are: positioning, and not being afraid to die. Over the years, the biggest thing I have done to overcome the loopy counter is to simply be better. This turned into my high volume of kills, and aggressive defensive style.

The difference with BALL vs TBD whale is something that may take time to get use too depending on the person. I had played with (|Sammich|) in their last APL, and I remember the final games where Texas(or maybe it was on1x, so many x's in that dam clan) shouted on mumble "holly mine more". It hit me, I was reverting back to my baller senses.

In ball it punishes you for setting up too soon. While in TBD, I've stopped pushes when the mines have been there for a longer bit of time. In ball for example, you are playing on Lost City. If the ball is going bottom. You have to setup two mines, and then immediately use that wall of mines to combo out a rocket or two. Depending on the situation, this can net you a couple kills or even the whole push diverted. Think of it as "a mobile lemonade stand" if you will.

Positioning for a whale is probably the hardest thing, you have to be ALWAYS in position, and ahead of the game. One mistake could cost your team a goal. "Oh that loopy was distracting you, well to bad goal for them." or "Your team pushed to the goal, but they threw it to a randa that had just spawned, well to bad goal for them." Dying is also a punishment in ball, and a big one. The biggest reason I go for high kills. The moment your whale dies, the other team will most likely score a goal. "DONT DIE" is basically the forethought on my mind during games. You aren't punished as hard as you are in a whale for any other plane, due to the role of the whale.

The thing that most of us have problems with is when those same loopy players decide to hunt you. This can't be helped. They have the speed, the weapons to kill you, and the ability to dodge all of your mines. If nothing works for them they just run away and wait a few seconds swoop back in and kill you while your distracted. If I don't type it in chat then I've probably screamed it out loud "you piece of ****". Because lets be honest here, that shows me that you have no skill what so ever and that I won our first skirmish while you cowardly run away from a fight that you started. This can only be fixed by having good team mates, such as when Nikon use to play for {ball} you knew he was going to go 60-10 defending you from any and all lights, it was the safest thing I have ever seen. Whoring isn't always a bad thing when its Nikon. Also, having better loopys can work just as well.

With out recent scrim against [BBQ] our loopys were rusty, (6 month break) but also we forgot to dominate our counter parts, loopy vs loopy is determined by skill which should be obvious that it would be. You cannot let the other teams loopys roam free.

Originally Posted by banana

3. Also mentioned is that there are very few successful biplane players It just seems that once again the biplane is lacking somewhere to make it a good solid pick compared to having another type of plane on your team.

We have had talks about the biplane before, and some feel that once they strap on Heavy Armor, it's an OP plane when played right, and don't get me started balln is threatening to play it in our next SL.

Originally Posted by banana

I don't know enough about randas to comment about them and haven't played enough bomber to know much about their playstyle in ball.

Double bomber was a famous setup for {ball} back when the original ballers were around. You need really good bombers to do it, with different play styles. Same style and it's worthless, as proven when mled and I tried to pull it off in tVo. While playing with Nikon who likes to sit back and whore. It becomes deadly or Anghells wacky rev bomber.

[elixirwithani]

We also used a setup of 2 loopy 2 explo 1 bip 1 randa in SL3 (AND SOMETIMES A BOMBER)

RIP badhomer

RIP shmo's skills

[Ribilla]

If I was going to change EMP, I'd triple the base energy cost and have it return half the cost if at least one enemy is hit. This means you can't spam it everywhere.

I think, EMP currently saps more energy than it costs which is the most ridiculous thing in the world considering how easy it is to hit with it, the assists it generates and the movement de-buffs it applies.

[blln4lyf]

Originally Posted by Hollywood

Yes, you are absolutely correct. {ball} used the standard 3 loopy setup in most of our SLs, and I have noticed with our recent scrim with BBQ, they are taking up the 3 loopy setup as well to replace their less active randas (Tomi|Braiden). Now this does relate to the plane, but also I had mentioned the old double randa (2 randa) setup, Which both {ball} and [BBQ] have run at one point. It takes a skill far above what anyone today is willing to learn. So yes, I just said its rather easy to pickup loopy compared to having two beasts run randa together, and show us a beautiful display of passing, and true skill. As it stands today, the only pairs that can pull off the Double Randa are: Shmo/Balln and Tomi/Braiden or Balln/Braiden

My Opinion:
Truthfully I honestly think a cool down nerf on EMP or make it use more energy would be for the best. You will notice many many times, that even when a loopy is pressured and about to die, he can still throw down an EMP. As it stands EMP is not a tactical weapon, but something that encourages you to spam it as many times as possible, and will reward you for that. Also, you are not punished for missing in a loopy, for example in a bomber when you miss to many nades that might just cost you your life.


Oh a whale topic. :P

Harmonica has taught me many things, two important things are: positioning, and not being afraid to die. Over the years, the biggest thing I have done to overcome the loopy counter is to simply be better. This turned into my high volume of kills, and aggressive defensive style.

The difference with BALL vs TBD whale is something that may take time to get use too depending on the person. I had played with (|Sammich|) in their last APL, and I remember the final games where Texas(or maybe it was on1x, so many x's in that dam clan) shouted on mumble "holly mine more". It hit me, I was reverting back to my baller senses.

In ball it punishes you for setting up too soon. While in TBD, I've stopped pushes when the mines have been there for a longer bit of time. In ball for example, you are playing on Lost City. If the ball is going bottom. You have to setup two mines, and then immediately use that wall of mines to combo out a rocket or two. Depending on the situation, this can net you a couple kills or even the whole push diverted. Think of it as "a mobile lemonade stand" if you will.

Positioning for a whale is probably the hardest thing, you have to be ALWAYS in position, and ahead of the game. One mistake could cost your team a goal. "Oh that loopy was distracting you, well to bad goal for them." or "Your team pushed to the goal, but they threw it to a randa that had just spawned, well to bad goal for them." Dying is also a punishment in ball, and a big one. The biggest reason I go for high kills. The moment your whale dies, the other team will most likely score a goal. "DONT DIE" is basically the forethought on my mind during games. You aren't punished as hard as you are in a whale for any other plane, due to the role of the whale.

The thing that most of us have problems with is when those same loopy players decide to hunt you. This can't be helped. They have the speed, the weapons to kill you, and the ability to dodge all of your mines. If nothing works for them they just run away and wait a few seconds swoop back in and kill you while your distracted. If I don't type it in chat then I've probably screamed it out loud "you piece of ****". Because lets be honest here, that shows me that you have no skill what so ever and that I won our first skirmish while you cowardly run away from a fight that you started. This can only be fixed by having good team mates, such as when Nikon use to play for {ball} you knew he was going to go 60-10 defending you from any and all lights, it was the safest thing I have ever seen. Whoring isn't always a bad thing when its Nikon. Also, having better loopys can work just as well.

With out recent scrim against [BBQ] our loopys were rusty, (6 month break) but also we forgot to dominate our counter parts, loopy vs loopy is determined by skill which should be obvious that it would be. You cannot let the other teams loopys roam free.


We have had talks about the biplane before, and some feel that once they strap on Heavy Armor, it's an OP plane when played right, and don't get me started balln is threatening to play it in our next SL.


Double bomber was a famous setup for {ball} back when the original ballers were around. You need really good bombers to do it, with different play styles. Same style and it's worthless, as proven when mled and I tried to pull it off in tVo. While playing with Nikon who likes to sit back and whore. It becomes deadly or Anghells wacky rev bomber.

Holy **** holly I try to talk to u about strategy so you don't feel the need to go on 7 year rampage.

[ryebone]

Originally Posted by banana

2. As mentioned with whales As whales now often have to be moving out with their team out from cover and defensive positions, once they do move out they seem to be easy targets for emp due to whales poor maneuverability. Personally once hit by an emp I'll often just want to die as quickly as possible to respawn as I'm not going anywhere, and I'll have no energy to plant any mines to actually try and stop the loopy if he decides to chase for the kill.

I play whale a lot different from Holly, but IMO I'm perfectly fine with a loopy wasting all his time trying to hunt me down as it's taking him away from the ball. Oftentimes if I'm already smoking, I'll purposely try to lure a loopy away from the main action elsewhere on the map. Also, use heavy armor.

[Kafka]

Originally Posted by ryebone

I play whale a lot different from Holly, but IMO I'm perfectly fine with a loopy wasting all his time trying to hunt me down as it's taking him away from the ball. Oftentimes if I'm already smoking, I'll purposely try to lure a loopy away from the main action elsewhere on the map. Also, use heavy armor.

^^This. Most loopies can't resist the urge to whore

[Duck Duck Pwn]

Originally Posted by ryebone

I play whale a lot different from Holly, but IMO I'm perfectly fine with a loopy wasting all his time trying to hunt me down as it's taking him away from the ball. Oftentimes if I'm already smoking, I'll purposely try to lure a loopy away from the main action elsewhere on the map. Also, use heavy armor.

Son i am disappoint

kafka you too