State of the Game

[Duck Duck Pwn]

No, this is not me suggesting we have some podcast.

I figure someone should do this so I am going to.

So zz posted a thread in the suggestions thread about how no changes are being made, etc. lamster replies that if the community has some constructive discussion over possible changes and that it would be good to the general community then some changes might actually occur.

That being said, I think it would be good to have a few different threads in the altitude discussion forums. And as a first step, I think it is important to discuss where we believe power lies in TBD/Ball in a thread dedicated solely to its discussion.

I think we first should have a thread regarding what we believe the problems are with tbd and ball and lay those ideas out clearly and concisely. From there, we can criticize those ideas and come to some decent ideas about where power stands in certain planes. From there, hopefully come to some sort of reasonable consensus towards where we believe the meta stands and where power lies in different planes. Only then do I think we can discuss changes with people being more on board with them.

I do not want this thread to discuss possible changes YET. I think a separate thread should be made once this one has a good bit of posts in it. I believe that it is important to first come to conclusions regarding where the meta in each mode stands before we discuss possible changes. Most threads have been an amalgamation of these or have been about a bunch of separate topics where someone then decides to post their thoughts on the meta and then nothing gets done because we don't have any great discussion regarding said stances. It's messy and unhelpful.

Please leave out negativity towards your opinions towards the likelihood of any suggestions or opinions being put forward in the thread. I'd like to try to keep a relatively level headed discussion here about where certain planes stand in both TBD and in Ball, as discussing balance and meta in both is important before we come to any decisions on changes. Discussion of other game modes is welcome but I think tbd and ball are probably the core game modes that people are going to want to discuss, but please bring in opinions based off of 1dm/coop/etc if you have some insight into those game modes, because I certainly don't.

If you think that the meta is fine as is, please say so. Do not be scared off by what I suspect will be a large amount of qq. State your opinion and then we can discuss said opinions, regardless of how unpopular you believe your opinion is. Opinions from players of all skill levels are welcome, as this game isn't balanced solely for those who play the majority of their games in ladder.

tl;dr Talk about what is powerful in ball and what is powerful in tbd and what is weak in ball/tbd. Talk about what you like about ball/tbd and what you dislike about ball/tbd. Possible solutions to these problems can and should come in a later thread.

Once again, please try to keep a level head with this discussion. Thanks. I'll copy/paste some relevant posts/info/etc from the suggestions thread so that they can be here.

Sorry that this post is so long.

[Duck Duck Pwn]

Originally Posted by shrode

Randa has too much utility in one plane. Because of this, unless there is a very large kill differential, the team with the better randa player(s) wins most of the time.

Let's look at some of the advantages it has:

1. Mobility/Evasion. If anybody else is getting flanked by an emp loopy or dogfighter, they are almost absolutely dead. TAs are able to hit d and tricks can do their tricky d+warp shenanigans. This allows them to be the most effective ball/bomb handlers, ball catchers, and ball interceptors. This is a great role for them and shouldn't be nerfed, imo. I actually think it's cool that it requires teamwork to bring down a competent handler.

2. Burst DPS. Shot warp/Lazer warp combo does an incredible amount of damage and allows randas to assassinate the most important ball/bomb handlers... other randas. It is very difficult for a biplane (the other "assassiny" class) to keep up with any kinds of jukes randas can pull, but other randas are able to. If you could pick any one plane to defend the goal against a randa 1v1, which would you pick? I would definitely pick either whale or randa, and the fact that randa is even an option for the best is just wrong. That shouldn't be their role. The shot and laser damage are fine and feel right, but just getting warped three times in a row is not fun for anybody.

I feel that warp damage needs to be nerfed and other planes given slight buffs to turn radii.

A slight nerf to randa shot velocity would also be fitting, as it is pretty silly that they get so much more mobility and same health (with HA) than loopies, yet loopies get a really weak shot. (i'm talking about ball shots, not their f)

edit: Also make EMP the same cooldown as acid. It shouldn't be so spammable.

Some of shrode's thoughts

[Fartface]

Well, I've never pretended to understand what precisely needs to be fixed about randa (I'll leave balancing up to those who do understand) but just from an empirical standpoint, it obviously needs some fixing, especially in tbd. The fact that qq played a 3 randa setup to win apl and there are usually at least 2 randas on a tbd ladder team should make this obvious. I think the fact that randa moves so differently from the other planes makes is somewhat inevitable but I'm sure it could be better than it is now.

Lamster said that the devs would be willing to listen to any specific suggestions regarding balance. Now it's quite possible that none of the suggestions that people have been posting for months would work, but I haven't seen the devs post about it... What could really be reassuring is to hear the devs explicitly say that they've heard the suggestions and either they like them or if not, why not. If they have no plan to try to fix tbd randa then they should just say so.

I think there are imbalances in ball too but they're much more minute and should take second priority imo.

[strato]

TBD: excluding randa, the planes end up, more or less, being well balanced and each plane has a good unique role. Randa has ended up breaking the system however, as explained in farts post above. Unsure how to fix. Energy increase or overall damage decrease maybe. Laser, in my opinion, it the worst offender.
now for a pro whale rant: whale is absolutely destroyed by laser, and with the randa's high manuverability, they can attack from almost anywhere without warning, leaving the whale more or less helpless. I also feel that remote mines got out of balance when they changed the mine release distance to fairly far from the plane. I feel like it leave whales with an unfair opening that no other plane really has, because no other plane has such a big blindspot.
also, bring back the old remote whale for whale hops

Ball: much more specific plane setups are required, otherwise your team is screwed. A common complaint is emp effect radius and other effects are too big/strong/long. I also find in general, biplane is rarely used, and only performs average at its best. Could be fun to try and make it more viable in competitive play

[Woofy]

Originally Posted by elixirwithani

THE FIX™:

Adjust laser energy regeneration:

Treat laser like the old Reverse Thrust - when reversing, a plane drains its energy, eventually to zero. Treat laser the same way. A full charge drains the planes energy.

I really like this idea, to balance out laser.

Like mentioned in the thread in Suggestions, it would raise the floor for laser without lowering the skill cap much or at all.

About randa in general, I don't know.

[blln4lyf]

Here are my very basic thoughts on the meta games.

Tbd: Trick/lazer dominate.

Ball: TA & emp dominate.

Randa is overpowered due to the damage output combined with the insane movement. Low health does not make up for having these other options and one has to be nerfed for this not to be the case.

This is not a solution thread as stated but I'd nerf damage on all 3 Randas to avoid breaking a promising ball meta game along with nerfing TA with the ball, maybe like it is with the bomb in tbd. As for emp, cool down, smaller effect on turning radius, etc are all options.

[Kuja900]

been calling randas op for 4 years now

[Duck Duck Pwn]

Hi I wrote way too much. Read the tl;dr if you want my general thoughts.

Note that I am ****ty at pretty much every plane outside of whale and hardly play anything else besides the occasional loopy so my insight on other planes is extremely limited but I tried to post something sort of comprehensiveish.

First a general note on ladder:

Ladder disproportionally rewards lights in ball since they're the ones that score and the game is much more fast and mobile than tbd is. Sort of similar to how bomb carriers would dominate TBD ladder, especially pre-TA nerf. They have a naturally bigger effect on the game. This is neither wholly good nor bad, this is simply the nature of the game, although one can argue as to whether the degree to which this is true is good or bad. That said, it's still not too hard to look at planes and figure out what they're good at and what they aren't and whether that's good/bad/etc.

TBD:

Randas too strong. Laser especially strong. Playing 3 randa set ups and almost all light set ups is lame. Shrode hit on most of my complaints towards mirandas: they're too mobile and do damage so quickly. They are the best bomb runners, great killers and arguably the best killers, and the most mobile plane. Being the most fragile is supposed to be a trade off but at the moment it is not easy to be able to punish them if they aren't stupid. TA nerf put TAs in what I think is a useable but not overpowered state but in comparison to trick and laser simply doesn't seem comparable in strength. Being able to 180 is really strong.

Loopies are strong but not that many people seem to main it in TBD. Acid underpowered in comparison to emp. Nobody plays tracker anymore. I guess it's in an ok spot but EMP being as spammable as it is is annoying to face, although whether it's balanced or not is a question I'm not wholly sure of. Probably with randa nerfs, loopy would need some too.

Biplanes are pretty good but you have to hit your shots. Good biplanes can dominate, decent biplanes don't do anything, bad biplanes turn it into a 4v5. Aya #1 in ladder, vipr's been high up there before too. Seems balanced if you can play it well, but it's hard and not super rewarding when it seems easier to achieve similar results with laser.

Bomber's pretty balanced. Similar to biplane: if you're good at it you can carry, if you are ok you don't do much, if you are bad it's a 4v5. Controls chokes well. Seems like it is in an ok place right now. Except dombs. Dombs need love.

Whale slightly weak but not too much so. Very easy to be flanked, hard to carry games. In a better place in TBD than in ball. I caution against buffing whale too much as randa nerfs that I suspect most people will advocate will make whale stronger. Still, feels like it is missing something. However if whale becomes too strong in comparison to loopy and randa then games will drag on and on because flanking will be too hard. But good whales are useful to defend and their defense can be rewarded much more so than in ball. Director feels like it took the ****ty parts of both remote and thermo and has nothing to distinguish itself with.

Ball:

Randas by nature are strong since they're so mobile. They don't shoot to kill too much since they tend to use their energy towards mobility. But their burst damage is still silly when planes choose to use it. TA pretty damn strong in ball; wait for the push to happen and then score. TBD TA all over again except seems a bit more balanced with the amount of loopies around to emp them. Laser seems like it kinda sucks because there are too many loopies and less of a need to kill heavies since heavies can't defend against 2-3 loopies charging at them anyway.

Bip seems "ok"; badhomer hasnt played in ages but biplane can still carry near goal pretty well and can kill well. Maybe not in the best place but definitely useable.

Bomber seems fine too; kills well, can push well. Don't think it needs much if anything. Dombs underpowered though.

Acid is kinda weak, EMP is super super strong. EMPs cut mobility of randa pushes, flank heavies well, carry the ball well, and can score. Sort of a power struggle between randas and loopies atm; both seem really strong and everything else seems weak in comparison. Acid on opening plays works pretty well but really needs there to be someone there to take advantage of the acided targets to be useful. Something like a biplane or just a loopy that's really good at killing. Hard to quantify acid's impact but it is not nearly as high as EMPs. And tracker is never used.

Whales aren't that good in ball, despite everyone thinking that 2 whales are super strong in ball. Defense is currently not rewarded whatsoever in ball. It's ****ty. I can play my ass off and lose because they have better lights, even if I defend a couple pushes because lights just have so much more importance in ball. Whales can push kind of well but bombers fill a similar role with being able to turn around and move back into better position faster and easier. Even with thermo rockets being one of the most annoying weapons to face, most planes don't care about them because they've played for so long to know how to deal with them. And once they don't crash or mess up their shot you realize that you don't actually do that much damage. It's super easy to be flanked on most maps in ball outside of maps like funnel or asteroids. Most other maps make it very hard to feel useful as a whale. Thermo feels frustrating to play against and to play as. Remote is strongish on some maps like asteroids with clearly defined chokepoints and not as strong on others. Director doesn't have anything worthwhile to distinguish itself.

tl;dr laser way too stronk TBD but sorta weak in Ball, TA ok tbd really stronk ball, trick stronk in both, randas too stronk both modes, dombs too weak both modes, does anyone even differentiate between flak and suppressor but in either case they seem fine, bip maybe wants quality of life small changes but isn't actually in an awful place, EMP too stronk in Ball and stronk in TBD but less so than in Ball, acid outclassed by EMP both modes but isnt super weak just maybe needs a slight bit more or emp needs less for it to be competitive, tracker sucks, director too weak both modes, whale generally weak in both modes but less so in TBD.

[blln4lyf]

Just want to note if Randa is made weaker esp lazer whale will be very strong as it is already #3 in ball(thermo) and #2 in tbd(remote) and IMO needed as is in every competitive set up. I understand nerfing Randa and emp but I would not be on board with increasing whale as nerfing those planes alone will make it very strong as it already is strong.

Also, no need to discuss every plane IMO as once the major issues are decided on a nerf to those planes should occur, not trying to redo every plane at the same time.

[Winters Ark]

Originally Posted by blln4lyf

I understand nerfing Randa and emp but I would not be on board with increasing whale as nerfing those planes alone will make it very strong as it already is strong.

Also, no need to discuss every plane IMO as once the major issues are decided on a nerf to those planes should occur, not trying to redo every plane at the same time.

I'm in the same boat. I think nerfing Laser/EMP come first. If Whale still seems a little... Weak (I guess is the word I'm looking for. Underpowered just doesn't seem right since I feel it's the most balanced plane right now) then we should look into increasing the missile's damage slightly.

As for the discussion of all planes: I think every plane has something wrong with it at the moment. Biplane is underused because it doesn't have a specific role it fits into in TBD and Ball. Bombers aren't used as much anymore either for a similar reason: they can kill but only if the player is good. TBD comes down to 2-3 Randas, 1 Whale and the rest is filler. Ball comes down to 2-3 Loopy, 1 Randa, 2 Whale and filler. I find the balance in Ball to be absolutely terrible, but then again Ball is just a giant cluster****. TBD balance has some issues which can be fixed with a couple of nerfs.

[blarg]

for those of you suggesting randa damage nerfs, i would like to point out that currently a randa can instakill a HA loopy or randa with a shot-shot-warp combo. if warp or shot damage is nerfed without also reducing health amounts, this would no longer be possible. so even if it is just a slight damage reduction, it would be a massive nerf. it would make trickster pretty useless compared to laser.

imo the most overpowered aspect of randa is that it can survive when caught out in the open. if i could make one change, it would be this: make warp give a big acceleration/speed boost rather than instantly moving the plane forward. this way warp could not be used as effectively for dodging. anchor and 180 could be given a similar treatment.

[ryebone]

I've long been a supporter of changing the ball mode format to timed, somewhere between 10 and 15 minutes. I agree that the current setup (first to 6 goals) places a disproportionately high emphasis on offense. A primary flaw of this mode though, however, is that once a team goes up by 2-3 goals, a team can just go 6whales and it will completely unbearable to watch/play against.

Also I vehemently argue that acid is not "useless".

[Woofy]

Originally Posted by Duck Duck Pwn

Whales aren't that good in ball, despite everyone thinking that 2 whales are super strong in ball. Defense is currently not rewarded whatsoever in ball. It's ****ty. I can play my ass off and lose because they have better lights, even if I defend a couple pushes because lights just have so much more importance in ball.

As a whale, I can really see where you are coming from. I used to use whale a lot in ladder, but it became essentially pointless, since if I had a good team we would win and if I had a bad team there was nothing I could do to stop the other team from eventually scoring. I started playing loopy more, and it is much more effective in winning games. That being said, I don't think whale is "weak", because although it may be harder in ladder to win a game with whale, it is always going to be that way, no matter how strong you make whale. Whales will never be able to carry a team the way that a miranda can, and I think that needs to be accepted.

To me, the fact that playing whale in ladder does not bear as high results as playing lights is not a matter of buffing whales or not. I think that it is helpless, since the only other option would be to somehow change the Ladder Rating system, which honestly has a small to 0 chance of happening.

Whale plays defense. It's a supporting plane. Whales defend so that loopys and mirandas can win the game. In my opinion, that is why people feel that whale is "weak". Don't have a solution tho..

Edit: Maybe Rye's idea could work.

[Duck Duck Pwn]

Originally Posted by Woofy

Whale plays defense. It's a supporting plane. Whales defend so that loopys and mirandas can win the game. In my opinion, that is why people feel that whale is "weak". Don't have a solution tho..

But they aren't even good at defense. I dont have a problem with lights dominating the top 25 of ladder; I think everyone can acknowledge that the people who score naturally will be the ones who have the highest impact over a game, and honestly they probably should. However, I have a problem with feeling nearly useless.

When I play whale I often ask myself, how many goals did I stop by my play? I'm lucky to say more than 1 or 2, and I consider myself at the very least a good whale. The fact is that it's simply too easy to punish whales and that whales either aren't tanky enough to handle a push or don't deal enough damage to deter one. You used to get away with "ok" positioning by thermoing just before the shot but with mouse control and with people becoming better at the game, it's becoming clear that whales simply aren't that strong at defending in ball. And honestly, nothing is. And if that's how people want the game mode to be - offense all the time - then that's fine. But at the moment whales don't have the tools to make a meaningful difference in most games on either the offensive or the defensive end.

An emp nerf would help in those situations where you are EMPed and you can't defend as effectively to a degree. I am doubtful it would be enough to make whales into something that can effectively defend. And randa damage in ball typically is used on ball carriers to force turnovers so I am doubtful that will help whales much in that regard either

[Ingbo]

Originally Posted by Kuja900

been calling randas op for 4 years now

always with the "i told u so" comments lol

[Woofy]

Originally Posted by Duck Duck Pwn

it's becoming clear that whales simply aren't that strong at defending in ball. And honestly, nothing is. And if that's how people want the game mode to be - offense all the time - then that's fine. But at the moment whales don't have the tools to make a meaningful difference in most games on either the offensive or the defensive end.

An emp nerf would help in those situations where you are EMPed and you can't defend as effectively to a degree. I am doubtful it would be enough to make whales into something that can effectively defend. And randa damage in ball typically is used on ball carriers to force turnovers so I am doubtful that will help whales much in that regard either

I personally don't fully agree with this, but if most people do, maybe a small turning boost would help..

[Hollywood]

Originally Posted by Woofy

Whale plays defense. It's a supporting plane. Whales defend so that loopys and mirandas can win the game. In my opinion, that is why people feel that whale is "weak". Don't have a solution tho..

Originally Posted by tgleaf

Plane Roles
Loopy: ball carrier, defensive ace (acid, emp)
Biplane: ball carrier, sniper
Miranda: ball carrier, surprise element (offense or defense)
Bomber: choke control, mid-map dominator
Explodet: sweeper, tank (offense), high-traffic area miner

Oh how I miss Harmonica and Dont Follow.

[blln4lyf]

Originally Posted by Woofy

I personally don't fully agree with this, but if most people do, maybe a small turning boost would help..

I completely don't agree with DDP's thoughts on whales and I don't think we should turn this conversation into something its not. Lets aim for a nerf to the clearly OP planes that nearly everyone agrees on I.E. emp & randa. Lazer is still very OP as is TA in ball and randa in general. I believe with that much mobility they need to take a strong hit to damage output.

[Harmonica]

I think there's a common thread in several of these posts which hasn't been singled out yet: the *consequences* of playing aggressively in the various planes.

For Ball mode, I think that "Explodet is well-balanced" and "Explodet does not contribute towards winning the game" are both true statements. The reason for that apparent disconnect -- as well as the dominance of Miranda and Loopy -- is in their respective abilities to switch between different roles.

A Loopy or Miranda which plays forward, for example, can immediately contribute to defense if a turnover or wayward pass/bounce occurs: the enemy offense cannot simply run around them and their weapons, so the Loopy or Miranda has some ability to affect the outcome. A Explodet which plays forward, however, can effectively be removed from the game's outcome simply by moving around them. Add a single EMP, and on most maps the enemy offense can be at the goal before an Explodet has even turned around.

The reason that Explodet is perceived to be well-balanced, I believe, is that experience and skill can negate that situation, to a degree. A good Explodet will position himself or herself accordingly: forward enough to contribute to offense, yet not so forward that they're so likely to be left in the dust. The problem is that there is not equal parity in any plane's ability to remove Loopy or Miranda from the game's outcome: it's a one-way street at present.


So, here's my point:

A well-skilled Explodet player can overcome the plane's innate weaknesses and better use its innate strengths. However, a well-skilled Loopy or Miranda player can overcome their plane's weaknesses, augment its strengths, *and also* worsen the impact of the heavier planes' innate weaknesses.

Because of this existing discrepancy in the consequences of playing aggressively, I don't think that addressing perks in a global sense (such as nerfing EMP or Warp) would fully address the balance issues being discussed.


So, here's my proposal:

Because Explodet's ability to influence the outcome is affected disproportionately by its slow mobility, what if the mobility-related abilities of other places -- such as EMP and Warp -- were adjusted to be proportional to the target plane's mobility or bulk?

For example: a global nerf on EMP would reduce a Loopy's ability to take out other Loopies and Mirandas, which would be an unintended consequence (and, I'd argue, an undesirable one: nobody seems to be saying that those situations are out of balance). A reduction in EMP's effectiveness on Explodet (and, to a lesser degree, Bomber and Biplane), in proportion to those planes' innate maneuverabilities, would address the "worsen the impact of the heavier planes' innate weaknesses" point above while not removing the role of individual skill in dealing with their own plane's weaknesses and strengths.

In the same vein, an adjustment could be made to the Miranda's warp in accordance with the target's mass: a Miranda which manages to warp through another Miranda ought to be rewarded with high damage and significant movement, but one who easily hops into a lumbering Explodet ought not receive the same rewards. An example there could be a reduction in subsequent velocity (or possibly an increase in cooldown time) in accordance with the mass of the target.


(I suspect this whole post could be better rewritten from the viewpoint of Miranda or Loopy instead of Explodet, but my perspective here is a bit biased. =))

[shrode]

I think whales are in a good spot. Whenever I switch from bomber to whale I am shocked at how effective I feel. Their ability to single-handedly destroy pushes and screw with passes is unparalleled.

Bomber is already underutilized in league play, so why would we buff whale? Seems silly. One thing that has always bothered me is how much of an increase randas get from HA. Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't it a higher increase than what other planes receive?

[blln4lyf]

Originally Posted by shrode

I think whales are in a good spot. Whenever I switch from bomber to whale I am shocked at how effective I feel. Their ability to single-handedly destroy pushes and screw with passes is unparalleled.

Bomber is already underutilized in league play, so why would we buff whale? Seems silly. One thing that has always bothered me is how much of an increase randas get from HA. Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't it a higher increase than what other planes receive?

I believe it's same increase just higher % of health since they start with the lowest health points.

[CmdrNoval]

Originally Posted by Harmonica

So, here's my proposal:

-Because Explodet's ability to influence the outcome is affected disproportionately by its slow mobility, what if the mobility-related abilities of other places -- such as EMP and Warp -- were adjusted to be proportional to the target plane's mobility or bulk?

For example: A reduction in EMP's effectiveness on Explodet and, to a lesser degree, Bomber

Biplane has been given a certain resistance to EMP... I propose the Explodet and Bomber receive the same.

[elixirwithani]

Originally Posted by shrode

One thing that has always bothered me is how much of an increase randas get from HA. Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't it a higher increase than what other planes receive?

it hits some nice break points like # of bomber, HC, and miranda shots it takes to kill them

[mjolnir416]

I'm not sure how it works right now, but possibly changing the warp damage to be less the farther you are from the epicenter.

[Dougie]

Here's what I would propose:

Randa - warp damage decrease based on mass of affected plane. (ie. Whales and bomber will take the least damage, whilst loopies are still vulnerable)
Randa TA - when carrying the ball, the amount of distance back a TA can move back is cut by 20-33% OR decrease recharge rate of TA ability by 20%.
Whale - 10% base health increase (debatable decision tho)
Loopy acid - increase time of acid effect by 10-15%
Loopy emp - decrease time of emp effect by 10-15%
Bomber - 10% base health increase (heavily underused in pro gameplay)

As I only really play ball, these may not be suited well for TBD.

[Tekn0]

Nerf mouse users thermo buff, was way too much. Has hardly any effect on mouse users.

[Ribilla]

Originally Posted by Tekn0

Nerf mouse users thermo buff, was way too much. Has hardly any effect on mouse users.

That's just straight up incorrect. The only way it could be even is if a mouse user could move their mouse in a perfect circle with the same speed and accuracy as a keyboard user can press a button.

This is what I'd change if I were in the dev's position (copied from Ark's thread).

Loopy
Double (or maybe triple) the energy cost of EMP
Refend half the energy of EMP on hit (this means skilled players can still use it, but you can't spam it into chokes all day.

Bomber
Give bomber it's turning back
Give dombs a detection radius so they blow up if they are near enough to damage a plane, rather than if they just hit them directly

Bip
Make the animation of secondary fire more visible on biplane, so people can actually use it's full range.

Whale
Nerf the remote mine slightly (mainly due to whales being OP if laser is nerfed). I don't know whale enough to suggest how.

Randa
Reduce Warp damage by 20%
Revert laser 'nerf' (arguably a buff)
Shorten laser by 5%
Increase charge time for trickster and TA shots by 10%
Remove energy regeneration while firing laser.

[Woofy]

+1 to that.

Originally Posted by Ribilla

Whale
Nerf the remote mine slightly (mainly due to whales being OP if laser is nerfed). I don't know whale enough to suggest how.

Maybe lower damage from remote mine, so that skilled players can still use it.

Or, change amount of time it can be deployed before exploding.

[wolf'j'max]

They already increased the amount of time before you can detonate it in a previous balancing patch, the timer seems fine to me.

If you would increase the timer even more the remote explodet won't have a defensive tool against close range bursters like the biplane and miranda.

[matattack]

Just a cool Explodet suggestion would be to nerf the remote mine damage itself severely but the explosion pushes slightly harder. This could pop up more use for rubber as well as promote more accuracy as a remote mine user?
As an explodet player in ball I realized that because a Thermo's rocket has more use while defending especially when the push has already gotten past you, but the mines are more or less easier to move around. While a remote capitalizes only on its mine and facing away from the ball and the rocket can really only stall to cause a miss-pass or push to cause an over-shoot.
Overall because I play remote better I feel like they are equal, but I realize that this isn't the case as almost all can agree thermo is the best explodet in ball situations because of the usefulness of the rocket.
Thats kinda why I think remotes could be better defending using the tail end of the plane while possibly thermos do better on the front end. The remote could possibly push harder but deal much less damage? The issue with that is once a plane gets too close to a remote and one pops out a mine, it would boost past them instead of kill, but that is maybe more of a position adjustment while playing?
One thing to note is that when a thermo faces a target it defends better that way and once the ball is placed into a thermo's hands they are already facing the direction to make a pass/clear assuming they are defending close to the goal. Where a remote faces away to clear enemy's and push them off but as the ball is obtained alot of the time one would have to make the slow hard turn as a fattie plane.

[leggomyeggo]

not that i like disagreeing with mata, but i would suggest against making remote push planes harder. my personal opinion is that remote is completely superior to thermo in practically every way, at least in ball. thermo has its strong points, but if you can learn how to play remote correctly, it's 10x better. if you're going to change remote at all, please just change the damage in the remote mine. making remote push harder is just going to ruin my playstyle and/or render it useless. i could go into details but i don't feel like typing a lot, but basically, it would ruin the meta for remote. imo

[matattack]

lol shhhhhh dont tell them the powers of remote! >:O okay fine nerf the remote dmg :x

[matattack]

I do have to say tho..explo's get the rankings pretty rough in ladder b/c of the offensiveness of it. The timed thing boner talked about would be cool but I do agree with him with the explodet stacking ect..

[elixirwithani]

BALL:

Miranda becomes weaker (substantially) for every plane added to the game.

Explodet becomes more of a skill matchup for every plane added to the game.

Loopy remains roughly the same for every plane added to the game.

Biplane becomes more useful (less noticeable weaknesses such as self-deceleration from dogfighter and hc) for every plane added to the game.

Bomber becomes SO MUCH stronger for every plane added to the game.

Maybe the solution is as easy as returning to 10v10.

So many of you are quick to suggest imbalances in plane design. Perhaps the real issue is map design and team size.

Or perhaps the real issue is the dearth of skill outside of the top players. The skill tier falls off a freakin' cliff after a certain point. Have you ever played a ball game with 12 top-tier players, using their best planes? Do they complain about plane imbalance? No, because all of them can maximize the utility of their chosen plane (and none of them use dogfighter because it is ****). All of them know how to counter the strengths of the other planes.

Or perhaps the issue is http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6814& .

I'm not sure why people have it in their heads that Biplanes should make up anything other than a minority of planes being used. It's a poorly designed plane (save for HA recoilless, which is only useful for offense and transition, and HC, which is only useful if your team is built around wiping the enemy team rather than ball movement), whose good perks are extremely niche and do not belong on every team.

Each plane has its strengths and weaknesses. Each plane is also capable of complementing the others to create a composition that can maximize synergy.

The balance and brilliance of the game directly contributes to the meta that has created the 2-4 emp, 0-1 acid, 1-2 explodet, 0-1 bomber, 0-1 miranda, 0-1 biplane standard composition.

The best players recognize that having a team composition made up of 3 bombers is irrational and ****ing stupid. Does that make bomber a bad plane? You can run a team with 3 loopys, why not 3 bombers? What gives? OH WAIT, it's because having 3 slow ass planes that are designed for lane control, killing, and pressuring containment makes no ****ing sense when the objective is to move the ball from one side of the map to the other across multiple planes (not boats) and levels.

Miranda, Loopy, and Explodet are too good at what they do? Pray tell, what are they too good at? Oh, they are too good at playing the game of plane ball. They are designed to actually do their ****ing jobs.

Do you even realize what you are complaining about? Biplanes complaining about Mirandas complaining about Loopys complaining about Explodets who are laughing at Bombers. You are literally collectively arguing some kind of ****ing meta-tautology in which apparently the game needs to be balanced but nobody has a ****ing clue what exactly is broken, so each person just expresses imbalance using words like Thermobarics, EMP, and Time Anchor.

Let me narrate the most frustrating part of dealing with a Miranda: the time when your team has been pushed back - wait a ****ing second, why did you let your team get pushed all the way back into your own goal area? Did the Time Anchor somehow detonate a nuclear ****ing bomb and kill all of you? Did it use Fear and you scrambled backwards? No, you ****ed up somewhere on offense or transition that resulted in your team losing its contain or push and now you're ****ed because your own errors resulted in the enemy Miranda being able to take up its strongest position.

I'm not sure how many of you remember 10v10 plane ball, but here's a little gem of wisdom from that hell: all else being equal, you do not score on the enemy team unless they **** up. All else being equal, it is impossible to score a goal in this game unless the enemy team lets you score.

I know the majority of you base the sum of your knowledge on the day-to-day magic and ingenuity that is ball ladder "strategy". That's super adorable and all, but there is no strategy in those servers. When there is no defined strategy or synergy between teammates, obviously the most elusive planes will be the most dominant. This applies to literally every game ever.

[leggomyeggo]

ye i agree ladder rankings are **** if you're not an offensive plane. ladder rankings are pretty **** anyways tho. also this thread needs way more tl;dr. i'm talking about you, elxir

[darknietzsche]

With respect to ball, I think elixirs points are actually spot on. Basically the skill level in the top tier and then the next tier just aren't close. I can't really blame that on the planes as much as the individuals. Good players know effective strategies using the current planes to counter each and every other plane and for some it is just they have very poor reaction times which can compensate sometimes for a lack of skill and vice versa.

Basically with the emphasis on play being ladder over league play and public servers, it is easy to see deficiencies, but I put these deficiencies in the players hands not the planes. And even if a patch came out in an attempt to "balance" these planes, you will still observe these same things due to the skill level difference, and punishing top tier players for the ability to think fast, coordinate with their team, and understand the meta should not be penalized.

Basically, I agree with elixir's entire post and was just waiting for someone to put it in a logical eloquent manner that makes sense.

[leggomyeggo]

Originally Posted by darknietzsche

With respect to ball, I think elixirs points are actually spot on. Basically the skill level in the top tier and then the next tier just aren't close. I can't really blame that on the planes as much as the individuals. Good players know effective strategies using the current planes to counter each and every other plane and for some it is just they have very poor reaction times which can compensate sometimes for a lack of skill and vice versa.

Basically with the emphasis on play being ladder over league play and public servers, it is easy to see deficiencies, but I put these deficiencies in the players hands not the planes. And even if a patch came out in an attempt to "balance" these planes, you will still observe these same things due to the skill level difference, and punishing top tier players for the ability to think fast, coordinate with their team, and understand the meta should not be penalized.

Basically, I agree with elixir's entire post and was just waiting for someone to put it in a logical eloquent manner that makes sense.

thanks for the tl;dr. i agree

[Aki1024]

Originally Posted by leggomyeggo

ye i agree ladder rankings are **** if you're not an offensive plane.

There was a reason we gave Whales a 1.3x multiplier on their fantasy score.

[classicallad]

Originally Posted by leggomyeggo

ye i agree ladder rankings are **** if you're not an offensive plane. ladder rankings are pretty **** anyways tho. also this thread needs way more tl;dr. i'm talking about you, elxir

This is not true, i was a shade off of top 10 in tbd ladder last season and i played defensive remote for 90% of that time. Personally my thought on balance certainly were not aimed at improving ladder per-se.

[blln4lyf]

Originally Posted by darknietzsche

With respect to ball, I think elixirs points are actually spot on. Basically the skill level in the top tier and then the next tier just aren't close. I can't really blame that on the planes as much as the individuals. Good players know effective strategies using the current planes to counter each and every other plane and for some it is just they have very poor reaction times which can compensate sometimes for a lack of skill and vice versa.

Basically with the emphasis on play being ladder over league play and public servers, it is easy to see deficiencies, but I put these deficiencies in the players hands not the planes. And even if a patch came out in an attempt to "balance" these planes, you will still observe these same things due to the skill level difference, and punishing top tier players for the ability to think fast, coordinate with their team, and understand the meta should not be penalized.

Basically, I agree with elixir's entire post and was just waiting for someone to put it in a logical eloquent manner that makes sense.

League play is completely unbalanced as well though.

Ball is about ball movement, and EMP stops planes dead in there tracks for a long time with no chance of turning around if the ball beelines the other way, regardless of who is playing. Add good killing power and great mobility to that and EMP is vastly overpowered in ball.

Randa has the best ball movement which would be fine if it didn't have great killing power at the same time. This makes more of an impact in TBD where randa is completely overpowered and pretty much broke the game mode to the point where the majority of people don't want to play it anymore but it still gives randa the ability to defend against the goal as good as a whale if the player is skilled which should not be possible as its giving randa to many strengths without the proper weaknesses to counter them. Randa needs to have less killing power. Then TA is just as good in ball as it was in TBD, the only difference is in TBD no one else touched the bomb so it was viewed superior. The truth is as TA you can juke teams for extended periods solo, wait for pushes, wait for a streaking plane and make a easy pass only for the player to waltz into the goal. Look at fart for example, he isn't the most talented TA but he is smart and takes advantage of the easy plays that can be created with it and won ladder last season because of it. At one point there were like 6 planes in the top 10 that played TA. I'd advise on giving TA a similar nerf it got inTBD. And lazer in TBD, needs to actually be nerfed this time.

There are people in this thread that are talking from their planes perspective without overall insight lix, so on that you are correct. But in ball emp/ta are too effective and in tbd lazer/trick are way too effective.

If anyone isn't aware I play TA in ball and trick/lazer in TBD, led my TBD team [qq] to winning APL last season with 3 randa lineups and led my ball team {ball} to winning SL last season by employing 3 loopy lineups. These are considered to be the highest level of competition this game has to offer and while my teammates are very talented players, winning would not of occurred without abusing the planes that dominate the competitive landscape because of traits that are far superior to those of the other planes.