SL7 Playoffs

[darknietzsche]

Playoffs Week 1 Sunday February 24th 2013, 2PM EST/7PM GMT

Map pool: Winners 1 and 2 Losers 1 and 2
Winners:
Round 1: planepark, snow, core, cross, grotto
Round 2: Funnelpark, cave, darkwar, ice, mayhem2
Semis: Ice, Core, grotto, asteroids, lost city, darkwar, maze (bo5)

Losers1: Funnelpark, cave, lost city, darkwar, labyrinth
Losers2: ice, core, snow, planepark, maze
4th place match: asteroids, planepark, maze, lost city, darkwar
3rd place match: grotto, snow, cross, labyrinth, core, maze, funnelpark (bo5)

Servers: Top Seed chooses server and begins veto BO3 in Rounds 1 and 2, Bo5 in semis of Winners and Finals of Losers, Finals are BO7.
****Note: Servers chosen must be stable and is the responsibility of the server owner to ensure server stability. Also note, a ladder admin must be present to use the ladder servers if not available you must choose a different server.
Format: Bo3

All the other rules in the rules thread.
We are doing normal SL, so if you are confused about the rules check:

http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7784

[mjolnir416]

US bracket vs Euro bracket.

[soccernamlak]

Originally Posted by mjolnir416

US bracket vs Euro bracket.

Winner takes ladder IMO.

[mjolnir416]

At least there will be no server qq till the semis.

[JWhatever]

How does the server rule apply for bo5 and bo7? First 3 and 4 games played in top seeds server?

Also, can you switch servers for just the last game or so or do you have to play your server switch card as soon as you get it?

-J

[darknietzsche]

I will think about how to do bo5 since they wont be played this week. And I am not sure what your second question is asking, you have to play the first two games in the top seeds choice. Then at the third game it is totally dependent upon the other team to ask for a switch of servers.

My first impression would be to do only one server switch though, but I can discuss with others if they think it would be too time consuming to do others.

[JWhatever]

In case of bo5, (assuming that the server rule goes like top seed picks server for first 3 games and after that bottom seed can choose the server) can you play the first 4 games on the original server and then change to the bottom seeds server pick for the last game or do you have to switch servers after the 3 games if you are to switch servers?

That didn't make any sense now did it?

-J

[darknietzsche]

Oh I am sorry, I get it! Yeah you can change servers at anytime after the initial point of a server switch to be allowed. So you may go the first 4 games in a single server then switch if it was a bo5.

[sunshineduck]

personally i feel like league parity is more important than an extra 2 minutes balln would waste in between matches anyway

[blln4lyf]

Originally Posted by darknietzsche

Oh I am sorry, I get it! Yeah you can change servers at anytime after the initial point of a server switch to be allowed. So you may go the first 4 games in a single server then switch if it was a bo5.

Wouldn't it be 3 then 2? Not 4 and 1? Or an I confusing what you said. Also qq ssd

[darknietzsche]

Sorry, J asked if he could after playing the first three games in server 1 continue playing in server 1 for game 4 then switch to server 2 for game 5 rather than having to switch servers for game 4 to make sure game 5 is also played in a second server

[Aki1024]

Lower seed must win at least one before a sweep style
BO3: (2 Home, 1 Away, 1 switch) 1-1 -> switch for final game.
BO5: (3 Home, 2 Away, 1 switch) 2-1 -> switch for final games.
BO7: (4 Home, 3 Away, 1 switch) 3-1 -> switch for final games.

Switch every two games:
BO3: (2 Home, 1 Away, 1 switch) 1-1 -> Switch for final game.
BO5: (3 Home, 2 Away, 2 switch) 0-2, 1-1, 2-0 -> Switch 0-3, 1-3, 3-1, 3-0, 3-1 gg or 2-2 Switch for final game -> 3-2 or 2-3
BO7: (4 Home, 3 Away, 3 switch) Same as BO5, but 2-2 Switch -> 4-2, 2-4 gg or 3-3 Switch -> 4-3

I prefer the Lower seed must win at least one game due to fewer switches. The max games played on which server remains the same with fewer switches. Note that my team's seed also makes me biased. One argument would be moral. Its easier to win on a home server down by two games (2-0 scenario) then it is to win on a home server down all the games minus 1 (3-1). This moral/advantage is a fundamental element of double elimination tournaments. The undefeated team has fewer games and an easier path to the end.

[mjolnir416]

Originally Posted by JWhatever

Also, can you switch servers for just the last game or so or do you have to play your server switch card as soon as you get it?

-J

Why would you want to wait? I'm down for just the 1 switch. Less of a hassle.

[JWhatever]

Originally Posted by mjolnir416

Why would you want to wait?

Using our team as example (we have 2 US players, fart and redrum).

We're playing a bo5 (or bo7), we're playing on US server and we then get the option to switch servers. If we're doing fine on the US server then there is no need to switch servers. Would we loose our US players after the 3rd / 4th match, then we'd most likely want to go to EU server.

So, if we have the option (which we have) to switch servers after the initial point of server switch, then we wouldn't be taxed so hard on our decision to not switch earlier.

Originally Posted by mjolnir416

I'm down for just the 1 switch. Less of a hassle.

Still just 1 switch, question is not how many but when.


Btw, what rounds are we playing? A - F and J - M?

-J

[darknietzsche]

Yes J to the question about what rounds are playing this week.

[Xorg]

SMILE 0-2 BBQ
SMILE 2-0 arr
SMILE 0-2 t3c

ggs everyone. It was our best season so far x]

[JWhatever]

Vlix 2-0 arr
Vlix 0-2 BBQ
Vlix 2-0 &&

-J

[TwistedCookie]

[BBQ] > Smile (2-0)
[BBQ] > Vlix (2-0)

[shrode]

So just to clarify, the finals could be 2 bo7s? dang that's a lot of potential maps

[Fartface]

Originally Posted by shrode

So just to clarify, the finals could be 2 bo7s? dang that's a lot of potential maps

Compared to what APL made us do, that ain't nothin!

[soccernamlak]

Originally Posted by shrode

So just to clarify, the finals could be 2 bo7s? dang that's a lot of potential maps

Round 1: Maimer, Pegs, Bowser_Castle, Mario_World, Pipedream_Light, Bubbles, Decimal

Round 2: Eclipse, Volcano, Locomotion, Labyrinth_Original, Swarm, Station_Alpha, Doodle

Backup Maps: Pinball_Arena, Risk, Sideshow, Circuitry, Electropark, Tetris, Star


I don't see a problem with map selection

[drunkguava]

don't forget original mayhem and football, soccer

[blln4lyf]

Originally Posted by drunkguava

don't forget original mayhem and football, soccer

Original Mayhem best map ever. BRING IT BACK.

[darknietzsche]

Updated map pool:

Remember semis and 3rd place match are bo5.

[Fartface]

Originally Posted by darknietzsche

Updated map pool:

Remember semis and 3rd place match is bo5.

Are losers semis bo3 or bo5? (bo5 would be preferable :])

[darknietzsche]

If you guys agree bo5 before game one then that is fine, otherwise it is bo3, but I am not adding two more maps so if you would agree to bo5 then you might have to play the given 5 maps for that map pool.

[TwistedCookie]

so whats the drill in bo5 (vetos and server)

[darknietzsche]

Same thing as previous. Top seed chooses the server there will be only one server switch after game 3 unless teams agree to do it some other way.

Vetos go 112221 for 7 map:

If bo5 is played for 4th place match it will use the standard: 1221 style

[JWhatever]

Vlix 2-0 t3c
Vlix 3-2 Ball

-J

[TwistedCookie]

[BBQ] > {ball} (3-0)

[Threevenge]

Originally Posted by darknietzsche

Top seed chooses the server

Not sure if anybody brought this to your attention but top seed isn't clearly defined in the rules for play-offs. Is it top seed based on season rankings or whoever has top bracket? Because we (t3c) had understood it as season seeding while ball read it as top bracket. Nobody was trying to screw each other over, it just isn't defined well enough and was open to interpretation.

[darknietzsche]

It has always been the top numerical seed getting the first choice. The only time when I believe it should be the other way around is in the finals where the winner of the winners bracket should have first choice over losers bracket despite the seeding.

[blln4lyf]

Originally Posted by darknietzsche

It has always been the top numerical seed getting the first choice. The only time when I believe it should be the other way around is in the finals where the winner of the winners bracket should have first choice over losers bracket despite the seeding.

Good to note, the switch in the finals is what made me think the higher bracket was the higher seed

[shrode]

Originally Posted by darknietzsche

It has always been the top numerical seed getting the first choice. The only time when I believe it should be the other way around is in the finals where the winner of the winners bracket should have first choice over losers bracket despite the seeding.

Using the same logic, the team coming from the winners bracket should have had the choice over the lower team in match O.

[blln4lyf]

Originally Posted by shrode

Using the same logic, the team coming from the winners bracket should have had the choice over the lower team in match O.

^ this chars. gg's tho vlix

[darknietzsche]

Yes, while my logic would support that in a certain way. The way I actually view it is that everyone in the winners brackets are equal, so to distinguish between them we seed them based on the regular season. When a team goes to the losers bracket, I think of them being lower then the winner's bracket. However, I don't distinguish when a team enters the losers brackets draw, so again we should seperate teams by how they accomplished the regular season. I see the finals as a third bracket entity where the winner of winners bracket earns their right as the host and the winner of the losers bracket wins the right as the visitor. If a second match is to be played in the finals I feel that teams are again equal footing bringing back the seeded rule.

These are just my impressions on how things should operate, I would be happy to discuss and possibly change how seedings are determined if people think that it is really necessary.

[shrode]

I feel like you are wrong DN, and I would even go as far to say that in the above bracket, the team that is on top of every matchup should have received server choice. Seeding determines your place in the bracket. That is it. This gives the 1 seed server choice through the whole tourney if they keep winning. As soon as ball upset tc3, ball should have had map choice because we knocked off the one seed.

This "team on top has server choice" rule works throughout the whole bracket. Even after the winners bracket team loses in the championship round one, they are intentionally put on top in the next round because the team that made it further in the winners bracket should have the server choice.

[darknietzsche]

I don't think I am wrong, since the way I described is how it has always been. Is it the best way to do things, who knows? I feel the way you described also has its flaws like saying how ball the 4th seed overall should have had server choice over bbq is pretty crazy imo. By doing it your way, you put even less importance on the regular season, say the 8 seed beats 1 seed in match 1 they automatically get best of the playoffs after 1 match. What happens to the 10 matches in the regular season that made the 8 seed the 8 seed. I don't think 1 match should supercede all of the regular seasons work.

Also your situation does not work in the case of losers brackets. Look at vlix vs t3c, by your way, vlix would get server choice despite t3c and vlix entering the losers bracket at the same time. I would expect t3c to then get the first choice not vlix.

[Aki1024]

Styles of tournaments for home team advantage that I have heard of:
1) Who has played better in this tournament (ie Longest time before first loss)
2) Who played better before this tournament
3) Who has played the fewest home games
4) Season W-L record, including games played in this tourny. W-L order ignored.
5) Swiss points (The player who has beat opponents who have done better in this tourney then the opponent's opponents)

I agree with style 1, as does Challonge. DN agrees with style 2 except for the Final's game where he agrees with style 1. I have seen style 3 be used in HS level play.

Style 1 believes seeds leading into the tournament gives you better position to win should you continue to play well. It punishes swiftly for losing, which goes along with flavor of DE brackets. It rewards lower seeds who excel beyond expectation.

Style 2 believes the advantage should belong with the seeds, regardless of how poorly an upper seed plays. It hates underdogs to the degree of pushing them down repeatedly.

Style 3 believes in the fairness of spectators to witness games played by their team.

Style 4 believes advantage to the better playing team since records began.

Style 5 believes in using computers to solve problems.

Normally in brackets, being at home gives you less time to travel to the competition and gives you a favorable crowd. Being the away team doesn't hinder your ability to play outside of moral.

Games L+M flop sides so that a team can't play against the same team the played in the first round. In game N, both teams lost at the same time, but Seed 3 lost to better seed, and Seed 1 lost to a worse seed.

E1 over 4, F2 over 3, L3 over 5, M4 over 7 -> N is 3 vs 4, 3 gets choice over 4, 4 beat a -3 team, and 3 beat a -2 team. 3 had the harder game and won.
E4 over 1, F2 over 3, L3 over 5, M1 over 7 -> N is 3 vs 1, 3 gets choice over 4, 3 beat a -2 team, 1 beat a -6 team. 3 had the harder game and won.
Extra: E4 over 1, F2 over 3, G4 vs 2, 4 gets choice over 2 because 4 beat a +3 opponent, and 2 beat a -1 opponent. 4 had the harder game and won.
The more I look at this, the more I agree with Challonge.

I'm sure someone on <vlix> will call me out on this that in N I said top seed gets server choice. I relayed what DN said as he is tourney organizer. From the sounds of it, he is running with precedence of SL/APL. Note that I disagree with changing styles mid tourny. Any arguments I'm making are for future tournament consideration.

I'm curious if Style 1 is based on Style 5 played out in all combinations and picks S5's most common answer to a match. Bracket Theory!


Something I just noticed was Game G, 4 vs 2. Was this played top team got home, or top seed got home?

[Fartface]

Originally Posted by Aki1024

I'm sure someone on <vlix> will call me out on this that in N I said top seed gets server choice. I relayed what DN said as he is tourney organizer. From the sounds of it, he is running with precedence of SL/APL. Note that I disagree with changing styles mid tourny. Any arguments I'm making are for future tournament consideration.

We at vlix are fine with the way it was handled in the end. I completely understand {ball}'s concern and personally I had no idea how the server was supposed to be chosen. We just wanted to make absolute sure that we weren't forced to give up the server choice twice in a row, because no matter whether the tourney is style 1 or style 2, we would have gotten the server choice once.

Personally I favor DN's preference as well; I think it's good to reward a season of hard work and time commitment rather than just the postseason, which could be affected by something as trivial as player turnout on one day.