{ball}

[tgleaf]

Originally Posted by drunkguava

not making any practices this weekend guys, sry. two exams tomorrow=not playing alty tonight. or friday night for that matter...

Liar.

And... we'll miss you!

[tgleaf]

wolf'j'max is the top {ball/*} player on the ladder, and no surprise there since he's also KLF. A few of us are also doing pretty well, though. Nikon helped turn around this match and gain +25 points for the upset:

[Kuja900]

Im actually here to give some props to Nikon, he had some great bombs last night.

[Nikon]

Thanks kuja, Yeah I have been playing a lot more ladder and getting a lot better.

[wolf'j'max]

i have to say, DF cid nikon guava and tg i played with you in ladder and you were pretty good. you all understand what the meaning of TBD is and i really like it .

[Harmonica]

Hey, give us some credit -- while we certainly have some newer members, I imagine most of {ball}/{ball*} was here long before Ball mode appeared. I've still logged probably 5-6x more TBD hours than Ball hours, and I'm sure other members are far beyond that.

We don't have the practiced teamwork roles or flexible builds that the more experienced clans have, but I think we can take a few of the newer teams if we play well. Especially if we can pull together enough bribe money to swing a few of you KLF+{ball/*} players, and maybe half of ACE and ||. =)

Registration ends on the 20th; how many {ball} and {ball*} members are serious about playing?

[tgleaf]

Originally Posted by Harmonica

I've still logged probably 5-6x more TBD hours than Ball hours, and I'm sure other members are far beyond that.

8-10x more BALL than TBD for me. =P

[tgleaf]

I asked Tec27 to password protect the {ball} channel on the Mumble server. I'll post the pwd on the ballstrategy site at http://tinyurl.com/mumblepwd.

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by Harmonica

Hey, give us some credit -- while we certainly have some newer members, I imagine most of {ball}/{ball*} was here long before Ball mode appeared. I've still logged probably 5-6x more TBD hours than Ball hours, and I'm sure other members are far beyond that.

We don't have the practiced teamwork roles or flexible builds that the more experienced clans have, but I think we can take a few of the newer teams if we play well. Especially if we can pull together enough bribe money to swing a few of you KLF+{ball/*} players, and maybe half of ACE and ||. =)

Registration ends on the 20th; how many {ball} and {ball*} members are serious about playing?

fLb is too expensive for you, im glad you realize this.

[tgleaf]

You've heard the rumors...

Well, Maimer is apparently working on the BALL Ladder, which should be an amazing thing. He's trying to figure out if 5v5 or 6v6 is a better format for the ladder.

6v6 allows for less 5v4 situations where a single plane loss affects the team greatly. It also may allow for more passing as there can be more receivers. It also means that random/noob players who join the ladder game won't have as much effect on the outcome. Lastly, it's the size we've played most often for matches and for the recent tournament.

5v5 is the TBD ladder size, so people are familiar with it, but it also would mean a greater likelihood of having enough players. Imagine trying to get 12 players together... it's already a pain to organize 5v5 matches in the current ladder because people leave or don't listen or ping quit. Also, some maps already feel crowded at 6v6 (and unbearable at 7v7... think planepark or grotto), so this might open the maps up a bit.

Post any thoughts you have... I'm sure Maimer would appreciate it.

[Hagnot]

just a quick thought, why can't we have both? If 12 ppl wanna play, vote a big map and play 6on6, if there are only 10 ppl or its a small map, play 5on5 and have more spectators.
Would it ruin the ladder stats?
A problem i see is deciding, if the next game is 5on5 or 6on6. This could get fixed by making 6on6 the default. So 5on5 is only played, if there are less than 12 ppl or some ppl explicitly say, they wanna spec. There should be some rule, that ppl can't get forced to spec, because the rest wants to play 5on5

[wolf'j'max]

the ladder is not so easy to make. You can't just say we need 5 v 5 AND 6 v 6.
The only thing i have to say is. TBD 5 v 5 is tournament size. Used in ladder too.
6 v 6 is ball tournament size so i would say. 6 v 6.

[tyr]

I know I'm not a dedicated BALL player but please let me write my thoughts.

Originally Posted by wolf'j'max

the ladder is not so easy to make. You can't just say we need 5 v 5 AND 6 v 6.
The only thing i have to say is. TBD 5 v 5 is tournament size. Used in ladder too.
6 v 6 is ball tournament size so i would say. 6 v 6.

That's just an arbitrary size. The debate here is : should normal ball tournament size be 5v5 or 6v6.
Why is BALL 6v6 and not 5v5 like TBD is (and has already proven to be a good size). Some of my players said that they like BALL 5v5 more than 6v6 after a few practice games and last week's tournament and I would tend to agree with them.
While 6v6 may make teamwork and grouped attack more important than in 5v5, I think it also becomes a big clusterf*** in smaller maps like cave or snow, where there's only a couple of viable ways.
5v5 emphasizes a little bit more on individual work and teamwork is even more rewarded when it happens than in 6v6 : a good pass can turn the whole match upside down. A more strategic play is also needed to win than in 6v6s because you have less firepower so you need to plan carefully where you want to go for your next offensive and consider where the enemy is and everything. I feel like it's not that big of a deal in 6v6 since there'll be planes everywhere anyway.
1 player may seem not a lot but I personally think it is.

Also to quickly to answer to Hagnot, I don't think two BALL ladders is a good idea. It would divide a playerbase that is already not big, and if you want to merge 5v5 and 6v6 into a single ladder, I think it's even worse since it's absolutely not the same gameplay as I already said before.
Plus Maimer has only a single VPS so having like 10 servers running on it would cause much more lag and other technical difficulties than there currently is.

[Hagnot]

Just to be clear, i wanted to play 5on5 or 6on6 on the same server, depending how much ppl wanted to play, so yeah, have a merged ladder with 10 and 12 player games being counted.

I agree that the gameplay is totally different, but why exactly is that bad?
Do u play better, when u play 5on5 than when u play 6on6? Shouldn't a skilled player be able to adapt to both gameplay styles?

Its understandable, that ppl want to play 6on6 in the ladder, because they are used to the ball tournament game size. But will the next ball tournament be with 6on6? Like tyr said, its an arbitary size, and if we would have more smaller maps, the debate would probably be 4on4 or 5on5. So unless we can't agree on some standart for official ball game size thats gonna stick at least until the ladder reset, i don't see why merging a 5on5 and 6on6 ladder would hurt

edit: should we move that into the ladder thread?

[nesnl]

Just a quick response: First, tgleaf said that I was making a ball ladder when in reality most of the work is being done by eth and nobodyhome. Just wanted to make sure credit was given where credit was due.

Second, I think that we will start with 6v6 and if we decide to go to 5v5 then we can do that at the end of the first season. (March 15th). My main concern with 5v5 is that one player can drastically impact the game, while in 6v6 it feels like that impact is significantly less. Just think about playing ladder games, not with all your squad members, but with random teams of both pros and noobs. In a 5v5, one person who makes a really bad move, throws the ball back at their own goal, does loops with the ball, can really make a 5v5 game bad.

Also, I know that certain maps were brought up (cave, snow, etc). Right now, the maps for ball are less than ideal. Most of the maps are either too big (mayhem, grotto) or too small (cave, snow). New maps are coming out that are going to be designed to specific size standards because it seems that map size is much more of an issue than in TBD. An important note is that this size and the balance surrounding ball is going to be centered around 7v7 play, which is much different than the balance of TBD maps, which is centered around 5v5 play.

[tyr]

Originally Posted by Hagnot

I agree that the gameplay is totally different, but why exactly is that bad?
Do u play better, when u play 5on5 than when u play 6on6? Shouldn't a skilled player be able to adapt to both gameplay styles?

Yes, a skilled player will be able to adapt. Like Usain Bolt won both 100m and 200m sprint at Beijing. Does that make 100m and 200m the same thing ? Absolutely not.

It's just different stuff and merging them would make absolutely no sense in my mind. The only thing they have in common is that you have to score goals with a ball.

[Harmonica]

Originally Posted by tyr

Some of my players said that they like BALL 5v5 more than 6v6 after a few practice games and last week's tournament and I would tend to agree with them.
While 6v6 may make teamwork and grouped attack more important than in 5v5, I think it also becomes a big clusterf*** in smaller maps like cave or snow, where there's only a couple of viable ways.

As you point out, it depends a LOT on the map -- but I believe the more direct factors are the passing game and ball management (which are determined by both the map and the players). With a team of good ball players on a strong Ball map that provides good passing and attack routes, multi-pronged attacks and other spread-out formations emerge, and those games tend to be more competitive 6v6 than 5v5.

Today, however, "good ball players on a strong Ball map" is the exception rather than the rule: few maps support good ball teamwork, and most players just clump together en masse and rely primarily on combat (doubly so with players who are TBD pros, as such unified pushes work so well when bombing).

Really great Ball teamwork results in a lower player density and more passing, and 6v6 better supports the more strategic play (although 5v5 is still decent). Sloppy Ball teamwork results in densely-packed players, where 6v6 is horrible and even 5v5 often ends up as a crowded mess. I think many of the observations you describe are symptomatic of the latter.

However, the latter is also more likely to happen on in Ladder games, I believe: it takes strong team telepathy to make the more strategic formations work, and no clan -- Ball or otherwise -- seems to achieve it with any real consistency. The random Ladder teams definitely aren't going to have the team cohesion necessary to pull off a 6v6 game without it devolving into a crowded mess.

So, my vote is 5v5 for Ladder games -- but, at least for now, retain 6v6 as the target for most matches and tournaments.

[tgleaf]

Don't want to de-rail the current conversation about ladder, but if anyone needs to connect to the {ball} channel on Mumble for voice chat, I have complete instructions at http://tinyurl.com/ballmumble. For non-{ball/*} members, you can direct them to Tec's thread at http://tinyurl.com/gomum.

[JackShaftoe]

Originally Posted by Harmonica

Really great Ball teamwork results in a lower player density and more passing, and 6v6 better supports the more strategic play (although 5v5 is still decent). Sloppy Ball teamwork results in densely-packed players, where 6v6 is horrible and even 5v5 often ends up as a crowded mess. I think many of the observations you describe are symptomatic of the latter.

However, the latter is also more likely to happen on in Ladder games, I believe: it takes strong team telepathy to make the more strategic formations work, and no clan -- Ball or otherwise -- seems to achieve it with any real consistency. The random Ladder teams definitely aren't going to have the team cohesion necessary to pull off a 6v6 game without it devolving into a crowded mess.

So, my vote is 5v5 for Ladder games -- but, at least for now, retain 6v6 as the target for most matches and tournaments.

Harm, I usually agree with you on most things, but I'm worried about this. If I understand your argument here you are claiming that "less strategic play" is more preferable than the the possibility of "crowded mess." While I understand (and in fact agree with!) your underlying reasoning, I think that choosing 5v5 actually undermines your core values, that is strategic ball play.

If the possibility of ball matches resulting in poorly strategized formations is just as likely in 6v6 and 5v5, wouldn't you want to allow the possibility of strong strategized team play (i.e. 6v6) instead of the increased possibility of rewarding strong independent operators (i.e. 5v5)?

The underlying tension here may be (keeping in mind I'm not entirely sure of the details of how the ladder will work) that ball is by its nature a team endeavor, while ladders are measures of individual play? The question that should be determined is this: Do you want ladder play to emphasize the value of team work (however inconsistent) or individual talent (however consistent).

Personally, I think a 6v6 ladder will encourage the type of play we WANT ball teams and players to have. But the nature of ladder play may be antithetical to that type of play. As someone who is fairly ignorant about ladders in general, I'm not sure, but if my goal for the game mode is quality play then I want game environments where quality play is encouraged even at the structural level.

I hope that made sense.

[CCN]

So eventually maimer you hope to move the ladder to 7v7 when enough maps come out?

Or is it a design for 7v7 pub and see if it fits 6v6 competitive sort of thing?

[classicallad]

haraay! Ball ladder! My sacrifices to the gods payed off!

[tgleaf]

Originally Posted by classicallad

haraay! Ball ladder! My sacrifices to the gods payed off!

Whatever you did, thank you.

Originally Posted by nesnl

Just a quick response: First, tgleaf said that I was making a ball ladder when in reality most of the work is being done by eth and nobodyhome. Just wanted to make sure credit was given where credit was due.

And yeah, didn't mean to forget the fine work those two guys have done. A million thanks (or Merci mille fois) for all the hard work, eth and nobodyhome!

[CCN]

bad news, can't play effective randa due to prestige system, so apologies and GL i'll be sitting this one out ._>

[mikesol]

Just wanted to say great games ball. You guys are amazing sports and very respectful players

To those of you who didn't know we only had 4 show up and ball had more than 6. Ball agreed to play 5v5 and let a random person join our team. If it wasn't for that we would've surely lost the tournament match.

<3

[Harmonica]

Thanks Mike. =)

{ball} played || for the 6v6 tournament's bronze match today. Here are the game results.

Cave: || 5-3
Snow: {ball} 3-5
Maze: || 6-0
Mayhem2: || 6-3

|| won the series 3-1.

Playing for ||: Matattack, Mikesol, Shiro, UFO ("bepboop"), and special guest cannibalsock
Playing for {ball}: awesome3, CCN, Harmonica, LeKai, Nikon, and wolf'j'max (CCN and LeKai alternated between games)

Both teams were affected by schedule conflicts and Ace/Prestige, but the match played very well, with many great plays from both sides. Great games, ||.

[tgleaf]

Hey guys, I'm sorry I couldn't be there today, but thanks for fighting the good fight. And congrats to || for the win.

{ball} takes 4th place in the 6v6 BALL Tournament. Good work and let's get 'em next time.

[Kuja900]

Well I'm glad we could all be civil

[Evan20000]

Really guys? I should have F5'd the things said after Kuja left.

[tgleaf]

Anyway, Kuja. Get a mic and we can talk instead of trading barbs via text.




And Nikon, no more of these for you:

[drunkguava]

LOLOLOLLLLLLLL
<3 u tg.

[tgleaf]

omfg!!! How did I miss this???

http://www.altitudeladder.net/

[Harmonica]

That was rather rude of me; I apologize for it. I'd blame the booze, but I don't think I was boozed up then. ;-) Either way, I certainly don't speak for {ball} or {ball*}.

Even so: if a team member in a Ball game is primarily trying to kill others, and not passing and receiving the ball effectively, then they are no better than the players who only chase the ball and never win in combat -- or, for a TBD comparison, the noobs who instantly drop the bomb any time they pick it up, regardless of the situation.

The best ball players are those who strike a balance between the three (imo) key skills in ball: combat/killing, ball handling, and ball-zone management. Most of the TBDers who don't play ball regularly -- which includes many, but not all of FLB -- do excel at combat/killing, but are generally a net detriment to their team due to unpracticed skills at ball handling and ball-zone management.

I have a great deal of respect for the members of TBD clans who have embraced Ball mode as a distinct strategic environment, and who have learned and advanced the level of play there. While FLB is certainly a sight to behold in TBD, the level of Ball strategy and play I've seen from most of their members had dissolved the level of respect and awe I once had for your group.

[Nikon]

Originally Posted by tgleaf

Anyway, Kuja. Get a mic and we can talk instead of trading barbs via text.




And Nikon, no more of these for you:

Why not? I still have a hole bucket of them! hahahaa

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by Harmonica

That was rather rude of me; I apologize for it. I'd blame the booze, but I don't think I was boozed up then. ;-) Either way, I certainly don't speak for {ball} or {ball*}.

Even so: if a team member in a Ball game is primarily trying to kill others, and not passing and receiving the ball effectively, then they are no better than the players who only chase the ball and never win in combat -- or, for a TBD comparison, the noobs who instantly drop the bomb any time they pick it up, regardless of the situation.

The best ball players are those who strike a balance between the three (imo) key skills in ball: combat/killing, ball handling, and ball-zone management. Most of the TBDers who don't play ball regularly -- which includes many, but not all of FLB -- do excel at combat/killing, but are generally a net detriment to their team due to unpracticed skills at ball handling and ball-zone management.

I have a great deal of respect for the members of TBD clans who have embraced Ball mode as a distinct strategic environment, and who have learned and advanced the level of play there. While FLB is certainly a sight to behold in TBD, the level of Ball strategy and play I've seen from most of their members had dissolved the level of respect and awe I once had for your group.

Quite a number of us (about half) dislike ball that is true, but regardless you greatly underestimate what we are capable of. We beat your team three times last Friday in near blowout games, and we will happily play you all again if your need further convincing of our ball capabilities. I firmly believe you overestimate the nuances of ball and am willing to put my money where my mouth is.

[CCN]

Originally Posted by Kuja900

Quite a number of us (about half) dislike ball that is true, but regardless you greatly underestimate what we are capable of. We beat your team three times last Friday in near blowout games, and we will happily play you all again if your need further convincing of our ball capabilities. I firmly believe you overestimate the nuances of ball and am willing to put my money where my mouth is.

I think we can take you, by how much I don't know.
however can you wait for a few of our members to not have lost their planes to the cursed Ace.

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by CCN

I think we can take you, by how much I don't know.
however can you wait for a few of our members to not have lost their planes to the cursed Ace.

You didn't come close to "taking us" last time we played but fine, let me know when you all are capable of playing us again.

[Harmonica]

Originally Posted by Kuja900

We beat your team three times last Friday in near blowout games, and we will happily play you all again if your need further convincing of our ball capabilities.

I've yet to see or hear of any such games except from you. Does anybody have evidence that such games actually occurred, or that there was even a moderately-reasonable group of {ball} or {ball*} members present on a particular server at the time? To date, every single {ball/*} defeat has generated a flurry of discussion and strategic analysis, yet nothing of the sort has occurred.

Originally Posted by Kuja900

I firmly believe you overestimate the nuances of ball and am willing to put my money where my mouth is.

Many of the noobs in public Ball games fail to see any nuance, teamwork, or strategy in TBD games. I do not believe your perspective, as a Ball noob, is any different.

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by Harmonica

Many of the noobs in public Ball games fail to see any nuance, teamwork, or strategy in TBD games. I do not believe your perspective, as a Ball noob, is any different.

I am no noob at ball, I have played it extensively and excelled.

[CCN]

Lets all relax. Proof comes on the pitch not on the forums.

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by CCN

Lets all relax. Proof comes on the pitch not on the forums.

Hey I tossed the gauntlet, whenever your all ready to accept let me know.