Patch: Feb 15th, map updates, ace tweaks, bug fixes

[nesnl]

I am going to respond here to the myriad of posts, threads, and PMs that have come my way in regards to this issue. I will try to keep it short and concise. It seems like so many people want to jump on me and try to paint me as the bad guy instead of actually addressing the issue at hand.

First, I want to address the bans. I may have been the one actually implementing the bans (as in the one who typed the VaporID into the servers), but that doesn't mean I acted alone. I consulted others before I banned and they were in agreement. Sure, I run two servers by myself, but all of the other bans required a consensus of people. This is not me acting alone because I am mad or outraged that someone "beat me to rank 10" (I am not even doing Ace ranks).

The bottom line is that abusing the ace ranks destroys the integrity of the system. The idea behind Ace ranks has been outlined fairly well by others. However, when people defend their abuse they never choose to address the actual intention of the system, they deflect and instead address pointless issues like "there is no rule against it." It is a common tactic someone will use in an argument when they know they are wrong. They deflect to a point that is completely irrelevant to the actual discussion.

Ace ranks were implemented to give people a "reason" to keep playing by giving them a goal to work towards. Even if the goal may seem ridiculous and get responses from some like "you only earn an icon" they fail to see that to other people these icons are something they will invest their time into earning. So it brings up the important issue of the time needed to invest in something to earn it versus the end result of that time spent earning it. No one is going to do something if the end result of the time spent doing it isn't worth it. Again, this is assuming that the icon and the "prestige" of that icon is appealing to someone. So, in the case of the Ace ranks, they are appealing because they are a graphical representation of the time spent achieving that goal. Would Luke and Stack and whoever else spend all those wasted hours farming skirmish mode if there was no actual indication to the rest of the community that they had done it? Absolutely not. People aren't doing this because they find it self fulfilling, it's for the "prestige," for some kind of indication to the community of what you have done.

So the end result of abusers is it takes something designed to keep players playing the game by offering them a goal to work towards and then trivializing that goal. It makes that goal less attractive to other players. If another player sees Luke or Stack in the servers and they have rank 10 after 1 day they are less likely to attempt to achieve that goal. So the abuse destroys the goal of the system.

What if me, nobodyhome, and eth all just decided to go into the database and give ourselves 3000 rating each on the ladder? There is no rule against us doing it, right? Or what if we just used 9 demo accounts and power leveled our ratings up to 3000? Do you think anyone would play ladder? No, because the ratings would become worthless, the goal of actually working towards something on an equal playing field would be destroyed.

So in the end, if the game had 1 million players and there were a few bad apples like Luke and Stack who were abusing then maybe we would be more lenient, but what they and most other people fail to realize is that their impact on this community and this game can be fairly large. By abusing a system just "because they can" they are affecting the long term success of the game in my opinion. As a result I banned them from a few select servers in order to respect the integrity of the system that Lamster and Karl designed. However, I do not have control over a majority of servers and unless those admins decide to ban them then they are welcome to play there.

And in response to Class, yes I was the one who thought up using a ball map to farm points. However, as I stated before, I never intend to do Ace ranks and I was testing this to actually see if it would work. Look at the actual patch notes for this patch and you will notice that it says "Aces can only level up in multiplayer, single player skirmishes and bot kills don't generate XP" which was due to my efforts of bringing those loopholes to the developers. Apparently, a few were missed and it was acknowledged that if someone is determined enough, a loophole will always be there. The question is, do those people really want to live with the consequences of abusing those loopholes?

[Luke]

Originally Posted by GGQ

Can you explain to me why you DON'T think abusing is dumb and wrong?

It's just using the system in a way it wasn't thought of, so I don't condemn it.

Originally Posted by GGQ

Is it really just that you want the little symbol by your name?

No, actually i was hoping to discover some hidden reward after Ace 10.

Originally Posted by GGQ

What about the things I pointed out?

I agree that it breaks the purpose of the prestige system. That's why i think that a patch and a rollback are desiderable.

[Smushface]

I think this issue has gone on a bit too long.

May I propose a solution?
-Developers roll back the abusers rank to the original 5 star lvl 60
-Abusers repent their ways
-Abusers get unbanned from ladder and proleague servers.

We need to put this behind us.

[Sarah Palin]

7 Stages of Cheating, As Demonstrated By This Thread

1. Feigning Innocence: "What do you mean I'm a cheater? I'm Ace 9 because I'm just that good! Why have you all banned me? *bambi eyes*"

2. Rules Lawyering: "Is there or isn't there an explicit rule forbidding me to play on my own private server and do whatever I want there?"

3. Relativism: "Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. Who is to say my behavior is cheating? Don't tell me how to play the game! It's just a stupid lil icon anyway."

4. Melodrama: "I'm *sob* so frustrated that this *sob* issue is tearing the community apart! Why are you antagonizing me? THINK OF THE CHILDREN"

5. Retarded Philosophy: "Confucious say: in fundamentally flawed system, human nature is to cheat."

6. Pretending To Be A White Knight: "I only cheated for four hours a day to show the devs there is a loophole. I was doing everyone a favor!"

7. Acceptance: "OK I cheated, I'm sorry."



Stillll waiting for stage 7...

[matattack]

wowzors
so yea..i play the game a lot and all, but really..i havent seen this much flaming for such a basic ranking concept.

although I think that sure, maybe those who have abused the system should be punished, however, it should not be by those who moderate the game, but by those who actually created the system. as much as some of us feel like we are really part of making this game better, i feel that taking on the roll as a police officer does no good to our community.

Banning also does not seem as the most logical way of even a punishment from an individual outside of the creation of the game. if anything, he/she should just post on forums of farming and possibly PM lam/karl for their behavior. i mean really..banning doesnt solve any communitive issues because it starts flame wars, and now those who are getting upset are leaving the game, hurting the game more so.

games are games, so why cant we have fun in a more competitive manner? ladder creates competitions and ranks are produced, yet it does not prove which player is best at all. some players play better with others, some dodge, some play too much. these badges are basically the same thing. sure it can promote a sense of pride getting there first, but then what? the second guy gets level 10..the 3rd..and next thing you know, you arn't really all that special anymore. who..would..have..thought..
the whole thing should not be taken so critically because all it serves is a way of seeing how much time you really spend leveling up and that should be a respected idea. whether you do it through cheating or not seems to be very evident so why would the ones who try hard and get it right the good way care about those who obviously abuse the system?

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by Smushface

I think this issue has gone on a bit too long.

May I propose a solution?
-Developers roll back the abusers rank to the original 5 star lvl 60
-Abusers repent their ways
-Abusers get unbanned from ladder and proleague servers.

We need to put this behind us.

This really needs to stop, its just getting out of hand. So some people did abuse, they admitted it however that has nothing to do with their ladder or APL status. I say repeal the bans, reroll their ranks back to rank 0 prestige and lets just all forget about this. Is splitting the community worth something as frivolous as a fancy icon next to your name? Its true what they did was wrong, deplorable and just plain senseless but it just is not worth all this.

[_micro]

Just what some random think of the new Footballl......


I totaly agree, It's too small now.

[Sarah Palin]

Originally Posted by Kuja900

This really needs to stop, its just getting out of hand. So some people did abuse, they admitted it however that has nothing to do with their ladder or APL status. I say repeal the bans, reroll their ranks back to rank 0 prestige and lets just all forget about this. Is splitting the community worth something as frivolous as a fancy icon next to your name? Its true what they did was wrong, deplorable and just plain senseless but it just is not worth all this.

The amount of drama surrounding the bans (people leaving, clans withdrawing from APL3 and disbanding) is idiotic.

I was banned from Maimer's servers for no other reason than I pissed him off. I sent him a nice PM apologizing and he undid the ban. It's his server, he can ban whoever he wants.

Unfortunately the devs are not around to rollback the exploiters so this situation has gone on longer than it should have.

On the other hand, some of the players might not have been banned if they hadn't kept insisting in a bunch of threads that their behavior wasn't cheating or an exploit when it obviously, obviously was. Chutzpah like that tends to get people mad.

[[Y]]

+1

Palin succeeds only in pissing everyone off.

[Sarah Palin]

Bull**** excuses are bull****.

Stack in one breath said that "it's a fundamentally flawed system and you should point the finger there," and in the next breath admitted he set up a macro to farm for him.

And in the next breath said he didn't care about Ace levels and that it's a joke.

And in the next breath that he did it all to point out to the devs that there was a problem.

All in one post!

Excuse me if I don't buy any of his rotating carousel of excuses.

[Jacques Strap]

All this over an icon?

Come on people. No need to boycott APL, ban people, start huge arguments, and freak out over a small graphic next to your name. Yeah, I admit that I did care about ace ranks and cheating at first, but now I realize how retarded all of this really is.

To the cheaters: I don't care if you choose to drop bombs on bots all day. It's not fun and a lot of people really wouldn't give a sh*t about your ace ranking. Some will, and I respect that. By cheating, you are only making people mad, but as many said; there is no rule against bot farming.

To the people freaking out over this: It doesn't matter. It's just a damn icon. Stop banning people, stop arguing, stop getting worked up over this. Yes, the system may be flawed. Yes, the cheaters are being dishonorable. But really, there is no reason to rage over ace ranks. Also, if you play in official servers, APL, Ladders, etc. and get a high ace rank, that's a good accomplishment. That is a much better accomplishment than the people that kill bots for 6 hours a day.

To the people that obsess over ace ranks. Altitude is a GAME. GAMES are for FUN. Not for freaking out over who is better than who. Altitude is much more fun if you don't worry about exp or ace ranks. I'm not telling you to stop trying to reach your goal. Just try to realize that Altitude is a game that is meant for fun. It is something that you (probably) want to do. Not a chore that you do not look forward to.

That is just my two cents. Please don't flame me or anything over my opinion. The whole Ace Ranks system is creating much more drama than it needs to and is hurting the community.

[Evan20000]

Luke: You used an exploit that others deem immoral. The APL and ladder servers are privately run, so you don't need to come here and make a big deal when nobody is going to unban you in the near future.

This thread is just getting downright silly, and I request closure.

[Herodadotus]

Originally Posted by Sarah Palin

Bull**** excuses are bull****.

Stack in one breath said that "it's a fundamentally flawed system and you should point the finger there," and in the next breath admitted he set up a macro to farm for him.

And in the next breath said he didn't care about Ace levels and that it's a joke.

And in the next breath that he did it all to point out to the devs that there was a problem.

All in one post!

Excuse me if I don't buy any of his rotating carousel of excuses.

I don't understand why people take this so seriously. I regret starting ace when I did, and I now see it as a hassle.

For all of this drama, this will just alienate and dissuade potential buyers. How can this possibly be for the greater good? I find it depressing that such vehemence exists over a game. Yes, a game.

The quicker this thread closes, the better.

[mlopes]

Originally Posted by _micro

Just what some random think of the new Footballl......


I totaly agree, It's too small now.

I agree with that, football used to be fun because you couldn't just grab the ball and run to the goal, the field was long enough for you to get killed before reaching it. This used to force the teams to be more organized on the field.
Now it is too short, you can shoot the ball from the middle field and score a goal.

[gemigemi]

Originally Posted by mlopes

I agree with that, football used to be fun because you couldn't just grab the ball and run to the goal, the field was long enough for you to get killed before reaching it. This used to force the teams to be more organized on the field.
Now it is too short, you can shoot the ball from the middle field and score a goal.

I think that the current filed length is closer to optimal than the original, but I agree that it's too short.

[mlopes]

Originally Posted by gemigemi

I think that the current filed length is closer to optimal than the original, but I agree that it's too short.

The problem with football is that it has no obstacles, if it is too short it turns into a throwing game where people will just throw the ball to the goal as soon as they get it. I'm not sure I agree with you on it beeing closer to optimal now, I though it was funnier to play with the old measures, now I don't like it.

[gemigemi]

Originally Posted by mlopes

The problem with football is that it has no obstacles, if it is too short it turns into a throwing game where people will just throw the ball to the goal as soon as they get it. I'm not sure I agree with you on it beeing closer to optimal now, I though it was funnier to play with the old measures, now I don't like it.

The truth is that it will never be too great a map. It would probably play a lot better if the game had no gravity, as currently gravity makes players stack into the bottom. The new smaller field makes play spread a bit more than what was usual on the old field, but I think the map will never be really popular.

[Ajuk999]

Originally Posted by Evan20000

Luke: You used an exploit that others deem immoral. The APL and ladder servers are privately run, so you don't need to come here and make a big deal when nobody is going to unban you in the near future.

This thread is just getting downright silly, and I request closure.

This thread most likely won't be closed, it is an Official Thread. The users that inflame and continue to argue, will most likely receive warnings or infractions. TO request this thread be closed is quite silly, lamster made this thread for people to share their thoughts, not to insult one another.

Also this update, and new system seems to me to be working and making people play more. Check this Picture I took earlier today, almost all of the popular servers were full.

[[Y]]

I was hoping the discussion would stay on the new ball maps. Why, ajuk, why?

[r87]

lol

football SUCKED before

now it is at least amusing to play, and takes half as long

[mlopes]

Originally Posted by gemigemi

The truth is that it will never be too great a map. It would probably play a lot better if the game had no gravity, as currently gravity makes players stack into the bottom. The new smaller field makes play spread a bit more than what was usual on the old field, but I think the map will never be really popular.

I used to really like football when I first started playing altitude, it was the only map where I wouldn't spend more time on the ground than on the air. Not only that as it felt familiar cause it looks like... a football field (the one played with feet and a ball). It's always good to remember that everybody has to start playing before becoming a 5* pilot, and football although it can be fun for more experienced players, specially with two very organized teams, it is probably the best map for new players to start. That being said, the new size can be a bit frustrating.

[tyr]

Originally Posted by mlopes

and football although it can be fun for more experienced players

It's not.
The laaaaaaarge (99-100%) majority of experienced players find that this is by far the worst map (often played) ever made for BALL.

[mlopes]

Originally Posted by tyr

It's not.
The laaaaaaarge (99-100%) majority of experienced players find that this is by far the worst map (often played) ever made for BALL.

Still, It seems I'm not the only one who thinks the map is worst now.

Regarding the ACEs stuff, I think I'll stay by the ACE 1, I like to much of my perks to forfeit them 10 times.

[r87]

I think the new football is a great size.

Previously, everyone hated it and nobody took it seriously.

Now everyone thinks it's fun, and nobody takes it seriously.

[eth]

Originally Posted by r87

I think the new football is a great size.

Previously, everyone hated it and nobody took it seriously.

Now everyone thinks it's fun, and nobody takes it seriously.

Really? Everyone I know thinks it's a terrible map, i.e. neither have fun or take it seriously. It's barely even a map, it's just an open space with a background graphic.

[[Y]]

In my opinion, the old football map kind of made up for its lack of obstacles and big openness by being huge. Making it smaller only made it worse.

[r87]

Originally Posted by eth

Really? Everyone I know thinks it's a terrible map, i.e. neither have fun or take it seriously. It's barely even a map, it's just an open space with a background graphic.

Yea really. I used to be annoyed whenever football rotated in. Now I am just ambivalent.

[mlopes]

Originally Posted by [Y]

In my opinion, the old football map kind of made up for its lack of obstacles and big openness by being huge. Making it smaller only made it worse.

That's my point too, now is kjust a game of throw the ball to the opponent side and hope to hit the goal. I think Labyrinth was better as it was too.

I think I should add the reason why I think Labyrinth was better. The old Labyrinth had the goal backwards to the attackers, forcing the attacking team to control the area in order to be able to go up (coming from above was harder and most attacks were made from bellow, so you would have to go up on most occasions) and turn to shot into the goal (yes I know we could shot into the opposing wall and bounce the ball into the goal, but it still required some skill to do it with success and that no one would be in the way). Now more or less from the middle of the scenario, is possible to shoot the ball straight into the goal, you just have to turn the planes nose up a little.