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#41
04-05-2010, 06:41 PM
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I did notice the changes.
Flexi biplane can pull some nice maneuvers now, I still dont think I can live without flexi though. Also the extra speed of the primary bullets helps a lot, aiming the primary is easier now. A slight energy use reduction would be nice but these buffs worked pretty well. Last edited by Vania; 04-05-2010 at 10:00 PM. 
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#42
04-06-2010, 09:16 PM
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I've played for a while now and have new insights.
Turning speed buff for biplane is noticeable but useless -Biplanes without flexi wings still suck. You need flexi to get a better turning speed than your enemy, otherwise they can avoid your burst easily. -Flexi wings biplane is now more agile but that's almost useless, since it was already able to outmaneuver all planes but loopy. Extra speed on primary is cool -but primary still sucks energy/damage wise. Also, bullets could be faster. Extra damage for primary is a joke -38 to 39... You know how hard it is to aim that thing? I only get 7 shots with a full bar and if all of them hit I get a 7 damage increase, thats like nothing. I dont get why you improved the turning rate for biplane instead of buffing some other stat, unless the use of flexi stops being a necessity an agility boost is useless. Nerfing bomber's agility was great though.
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#43
04-07-2010, 07:32 PM
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i dont even use bip but i have to admit it needs a more realistic buff a bit more anyway, if you look at apl teh bip isnt realy considered by any clans to use! the best clans (ACE FLB L* Sammich) just dont even use it cause it just doesnt help)
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#44
04-07-2010, 07:37 PM
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but imo i think in patches planes dont need to be changed much and its a bit more of a perfectionist approach editing lanes every patch! i do think they should but only where justifiable! basically my request is that the bomber is changed back in the next patch! if not please can u explain waht the reasoning was behind it? kind regards nip =]
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#45
04-07-2010, 07:51 PM
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We don't just randomly nerf or buff planes
 Lamster spends a lot of time playing in the ladder servers and listening to feedback from high skill level players. I play more casually in one of our various "official servers" and given my play style and stats balance is pretty damn good and justified. stats since patch:
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#46
04-07-2010, 08:13 PM
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I would completely change biplane.
First significantly reduce its HP, then increase its agility to like 7.2, then increase damage or reduce energy use a lot. Also by looking at those stats I get why biplane is underpowered, Lamster and Karl suck at every other plane but biplane... and balance accordingly. ==== Karl response ==== We spend a lot of time listening to our players and making Altitude a better game because of it. We are completely open to criticism as long as it is constructive. Making false rude statements is a detriment to the community and will not be tolerated. Last edited by Karl; 04-07-2010 at 08:40 PM. Reason: flaming
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#47
04-07-2010, 08:41 PM
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Just to be clear: Karl's (and my) personal stats have nothing to do with our balance changes; we'll occasionally glance over bulk stats at various skill levels (e.g. last 5000 new players' plane preferences and ratios with each plane, and similarly for veterans on high-skill servers) but those numbers have never played a key role in specific balance decisions.
Regarding the 2.9% bomber turning nerf: there was a general consensus among high level players that bomber was too effective in very-high-level play. There was also (in my opinion) a minor design flaw: with effective frontal and rear weaponry and an excellent turn radius, there was no obvious weakness for other planes to exploit -- wherever you are a skilled bomber can quickly swivel one or the other weapon into your path. By decreasing the max turn rate you get: A) A better-defined weak zone. Bombers now need to be more careful about attackers approaching from the sides -- with a slower turn rate the enemy can potentially deal serious damage without entering the engagement zones of either of the bomber's weapons. This also makes play for opponents slightly more interesting as they strategically maneuver to exploit the weak flanks. B) A very efficient skill-level-sensitive nerf. The bomber never felt overpowered at lower levels of play, and new players actually prefer a slower turning radius as it helps them steer and aim more deliberately. Meanwhile expert bombers will still utilize the bomber's turning radius to its maximum ability, they can still perfectly line up on a key battle and unload their powerful mid-range burst damage, but they're now faced with interesting and difficult choices as they maneuver to maximally exploit firepower while minimizing exposure to their weak side flanks. Of course ultimately none of this theory is important: what matters is how it actually plays. My personal experience is that the changes feel pretty good in game, but time and player feedback will tell whether further adjustments are appropriate.
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#48
04-07-2010, 09:12 PM
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#50
04-07-2010, 10:35 PM
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From my perspective the Bomber nerf was completely justified; in Ladder and other more competitive TBD matches it had definitely become the plane of choice for many players based probably on its huge potential radius of turn and high damage ability.
I can't really comment on the Biplane changes as my lifetime kills with it is still somewhere in the low hundreds.
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#51
04-07-2010, 10:49 PM
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much altitude obsessed love nipple nipnip
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#52
04-08-2010, 12:15 AM
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after re-learning how to aim with the HC after the patch, i did notice it's easier to kill some planes. Mirandas especially and loopies, and ace instincts is really usefull now.
I see alot more biplanes in games now, where before we were 1 or 2 max.. I don't think biplane needs more killing power.. it's powerfull enough right now. What it needs is that little something that will make it desiarable in a pro 5v5 match.. Since i see the devs are reading this, and they are apparently really thinking through the finer points of alt strategy and balance, i will ask them this: Is there anything planned to make the bip competitive in League play, or do you feel it's where it should be?
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#53
04-08-2010, 02:39 AM
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#55
04-08-2010, 11:12 AM
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I wouldn't be surprised if it still needed another small bump, but I think it's getting pretty close.
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#56
04-09-2010, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
rawrwawrarawr LVOELVOLEOLV RARWRWQRARA LICK MEEMEMMEEMEMEMEM hope you enjoyed nipple
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#58
04-09-2010, 02:35 AM
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Allright, still hoping the devs read this, and i don't see a point in opening up a new thread in the suggestion forum.
AS i see it: explodet- pushes planes around, AOE damage, area control with mines, bomber- pushes planes around, AOE damage (front AND back with tail cannon) Loopy- AOE area control AND DAMAGE( acid) or AOE massive debuff (EMP) Miranda- area control bounce shot, teleport damage , anchor, instant reverse, plenty of things to keep it usable Biplane- It shoots in front. Long range. Good burst damage. Some pierce on HC ( area control?? but too small a chance to be really feared/usefull). Thats it. No serious AOE damage/buff/debuff, no area control. No effect other than damage on the target. As i see it, the biplane is an efective hunter killer of 1 target. What's it's specialty? is it Burst damage? Then it;s not enough to instantly kill anything other than loopies or mirandas( if lucky). Is it Pierce? too remote a chance to hit, doesn't involve any player skill but luck, for the enemy to be positioned just right, or if they bunch for a push. Hell some might call this a "buff my plane" whine. Yes, biplane is my plane, i play it almost exclusively. I do ok with it.BUT I think it's powerfull enough now, damage wise, agile enough. It doesn;t need more of that. what i think it needs is an "effect". I don't feel usefull in ladder,or a high skill TBD game.. except that i kill alot. Mostly because they focus on the other guys. If they focus on me, i'm usually dead. And sometimes, i manage that last second snipe that gets the bomb carrier.. if i'm lucky. Looking at what the others have and extrapolating. AOE damage- Bip is a 1 tgt at a time killer. One way for it to have AOE effectiveness is with a KILLER pierce. and i do mean KILLER. The enemy should FEAR to bunch up if a HC is in the way. This doesn;t do much for the DF and recoilless unfortunatly. -how about the HC shot is more like the bomber tailgun? As in explodes on Impact. No pierce of course, but that would be interesting with a small push effect, just like the tailgun cannon has.. imagine shooting at the wall next to an enemy.. i'm not sure i would like this change over how HC is right now, too radical but it would solve some issues( but probably create dozens more.. Unfortunatly does nothing for the DF/recoilless. Pushing planes around- what if HC would have a small push effect on the first hit? smaller or equal than what a bomber has? Would be intersting, and i think not so IMBA. unfortunalty again, no love for reco/DF. What about an effect on tgt? Like a debuff. This could be applied to all biplane red perks. For example primary weapon hit adds a slowdown effect? or just cuts ability to use afterburner? or decreases turnrate? I'm not talking here about a MASSIVE debuff, like what that everpowered EMP does, and not such a long duration as well.. but it would make things mighty intersting. df/reco who have a high primary ROF could have for example a smaller duration, HC a longer one. It would reward aim.. keeping a tgt under fire and such unable to afterburn/evade for reco/df would be satisfying, Also nailing a HC shot, and having the target crippled just enough for you to setup you second shot.. In fact, that should be a good limit for the effect.. the time it takes for the 2nd shot.. or close( something like 0.2 secs for fast primary, 0.5 for HC? i dunno i'm just guessing here). Again, just to be clear.. i'm NOT talking about a massive debuff. 10% less speed, or turning for example, or afterburner cut-off, for a VERY short period of time. THis would secure the bip in the role of hunter-killer of the battlefield, weakening it's prey, and give it a role in a team, debufing the enemy. Sorry for the long post, these are things i've thought over a long while. Please refrain from flaming, i don't mind criticism but please keep it decent.
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#59
04-09-2010, 09:19 AM
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And no improvement on flakgun? // {arr} Iderik Last edited by idk; 04-09-2010 at 09:35 AM.
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#63
04-09-2010, 11:22 AM
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#64
04-09-2010, 11:32 AM
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See: http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3158 and http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3159
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#65
04-09-2010, 07:04 PM
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Killing a loopy or miranda in one burst is not easy, only monxy and tyr can do it regularly.
Considerably reduce biplane's secondary energy use, so we dont have to be completely flawless to get a kill. Maybe so that we can even kill bigger targets in one burst. Biplane's secondary is NOT SPAMMABLE, it's the only weapon in the game that isnt, it requires great precision, reducing its energy use wont make it OP. I think its only fair considering biplanes have to use thrusters a lot to keep up with their targets, thus wasting a lot more energy than other planes.
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#66
04-09-2010, 07:25 PM
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And on a totally unrelated topic, it was also nice getting love from you! Thanks!
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#67
04-10-2010, 07:14 PM
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#68
04-12-2010, 05:10 PM
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#70
04-13-2010, 12:30 AM
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I'll take a debuff to biplane's HP in exchange for an agility and/or damage buff. This is why biplanes extra HP doesnt help much: -When a Miranda doesnt kill you with Warp+Shot it just reverses and finishes you off: and there's usually nothing you can do about it. -HP doesnt help when you're emped. Loopy has plenty of time to kill you. -If an explo kills you its usually by making you crash. -When a bomber hits you in the face with its grenades you die anyway cause its just too much damage. -Since the biplane has to get very close to its enemies, getting stalled by an explo or bomber usually means death by the rest of the team. No amount of HP is going to save you. -The high HP doesnt allow biplane to stay in the fight for long. It has to hit and run anyway. -So, plenty of HP is only useful for bombing, which TA miranda does better anyway... Plus a drop in HP and agility increase would make heavy armor and repair drone interesting choices. I'll take a lighter, more aggresive biplane anyday.
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#71
04-13-2010, 01:08 AM
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But isn't that what you're doing when using flexi?
You're suggesting decreasing the biplane's health and increasing its agility/turning speed. When you opt for flexi wings as your green perk, you're decreasing your plane's potential health (heavy armor) in exchange for better agility/turning speed (flexi). If your idea put into effect, then we would see a migration of the general biplane population from flexi wings to heavy armor, resulting in the exact same plane that we all have now.
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#73
04-13-2010, 12:51 PM
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Here's a thought: increasing biplane energy stores or regen might address a few of these issues in a way that keep the current feel of the plane. It gives you more energy for both afterburning (closing distance) and more leftover for machinegunning dudes down once you get up close.
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#74
04-13-2010, 02:49 PM
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while afterburning you never regen, so that would not help you you ab then want to start shooting immediatly.
the greater energy would, but it would mess with other balances, like shots fired/energy etc Lowering afterburner energy usage( dunno if it's possible) or machinegun energy usage would be the "least invasive" in my oppionion
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#75
04-13-2010, 04:10 PM
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On the other hand, players whose playstyle is more agressive and kamikaze like would still go with flexi and get a super agile plane, still not as agile as a loopy but close. Some other players might choose repair drone. The thing is, it would make all the perks viable, instead of just flexi. And dont forget about the secondary damage buff.
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#78
04-14-2010, 03:15 AM
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For me, the Biplane change was what I'd call an ideal buff - a tiny modification that looks miniscule on paper but is just enough to make a real difference in practice. That's what I call carefully considered balance.
Thanks K&L, keep up the good work.
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#79
04-14-2010, 04:50 PM
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The reason its not good in TBD is because the biplane works best against lone enemies who stray from the pack, that doesnt happen in TBD with skilled players. One role the biplane could fill would be that of an item hunter, a biplane could scout the map for items while the rest of the team controls an area, it would be ideal for that since its very good 1v1. When it gets an item it could go where his team is and 'pass' it so they can take it, thus giving them an edge. If it were allowed to pass the bomb too, a biplane could carry the bomb near the enemy base and then pass it to a miranda.
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#80
04-15-2010, 02:57 AM
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Biplane was always useful in TBD, it's just the mob got a whiff of a good player's opinion that Biplane wasn't as good as the other planes and suddenly it became gospel that the plane was useless.
If you'd like to argue it needs more buffs, though, I won't mind :3
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