Introducing: Official Ladder Administration Thread

[Sunaku]

Originally Posted by Smushface

I don't think anyone wants mechanical application of the rules.

Neither do I. If I wanted a mechanical application, I would just have stated the existence of the rule, and I wouldn't have argued why I think their interpretation is flawed.

That said, the nature of the rules vary. Some are intrinsically left to the discretion of the admins (omg rule 12!), while other rules are rather binary.
You either choose to play random or you don't. In opposition to, for example, failing to spec chat a single comment after being asked to. All the same, those other rules could be viewed as binary :

Originally Posted by nobodyhome

8) Acing in the middle of a game.

9) Playing a ladder game while under level 13 of any ace rank.

A mechanical application would be banning someone for randoming during a single spawn. On the contrary, banning someone intentionally playing random for several games is just being coherent.

[shrode]

Originally Posted by Kuja900

The custom random rule needs to be modified there is tactical use in custom random, for example to throw off my opponents you could fill your planes with randa/loopy setups to try and gain a small advantage bomb running.

No, you can simply switch planes yourself. dumb argument. if you need it random get a calculator with a random generator and have it pick for you. or flip a coin

[Smushface]

I keep writing long winded responses that go way beyond the scope of this issue so I'm going to be as succinct as possible.

Ryebone and Mike made a judgement call that even though what Elixer was doing technically broke rule 13, it did not really detract from the overall ladder experience and thus did not violate the 'spirit' of the rule.

Between interacting with you in game and on this forum, I know you have a good enough head on your shoulders that you weren't actually thrown off by Elixer's antics. Which leads me conclude that there is an underlying reason behind you pushing this so hard. So how about bring that up instead? I'm willing to address it either privately or publicly.

If I'm reading too much into this, I apologize. Just say so and I'll return to the issue at hand.

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by shrode

No, you can simply switch planes yourself. dumb argument. if you need it random get a calculator with a random generator and have it pick for you. or flip a coin

Custom random is far more convenient then having to manually switch your plane every time you die.

[elxir]

Originally Posted by Kuja900

Custom random is far more convenient then having to manually switch your plane every time you die.

Exactly, thank you kuja! I wanted DF loopy #4 sometimes but I didn't want to show it favoritism over the 14 other DF loopys so I played the geometry card and hoped it would work out.

[Sunaku]

Originally Posted by Smushface

So how about bring that up instead? I'm willing to address it either privately or publicly.

If I'm reading too much into this, I apologize. Just say so and I'll return to the issue at hand.

I don't have anything to hide and I'm not hiding anything. The fact that I have history with Mikesol doesn't make the concerns I express any less valid. I am not responsible for him and Ryebone being present at that moment. Had any other admins made the same call, that my posts would have been the same.

Of course, elixir's ban is secondary, the core issue is the admins' ability to ensure a clean competitive environment, hence why I question their decision :

Originally Posted by Smushface

Ryebone and Mike made a judgement call that even though what Elixer was doing technically broke rule 13, it did not really detract from the overall ladder experience and thus did not violate the 'spirit' of the rule.

Which I disagree with, and I already explained why it indeed violates the spirit of the rule. Allow me to quote myself, as I would like an answer on this part :
"Here is what I don't understand : how should I, or his teammates or anyone, know what he is or isn't randoming? How can you determine if he is playing one single plane, without paying a disproportionate amount of attention to his perks?
The reason why random was banned is because your teammates shouldn't have to worry that you're messing up with team composition. And if someone has to spend several seconds at each of your spawn to check if your random isn't so random, then you are still hurting your team.
In the end, it doesn't matter if someone is randoming one, 2 or 5 planes; the number of planes is irrelevant because the impact on his whole team is the same.

At best, a single setup random is useless, and at worst it hurts your team. So why would you condone this kind of behavior and treat it differently than any other randoming?
Banning all kinds of randoms allows your team to play in the best conditions by giving it clarity. Making an exception to this rule for the sole purpose of trolling is unnecessary and makes no sense.

[sunshineduck]

Is your argument really "well we knew what plane he was going to play because he was custom randoming on a single plane, but we didn't know what plane he was going to play"?

Are you implying that only playing one plane an entire match (and, presumably, other matches) and refusing to play a different plane to mold to what someone else on the team feels is the optimal plane composition is bannable? I wasn't there, but with the information that you've given that's pretty much how I envision it happened.

I'm assuming not, as you're not stupid (just amazingly stubborn), so you're either trolling for the sake of trolling or you're trolling to get some sort of personal satisfaction out of the entire scenario. Your "well we have to check every time he spawns to make sure he's not randoming into a different plane" premise is laughable, as if you were actually that worried about the plane composition you would check their plane regardless of whether or not they're playing random.

[elxir]

He wasn't on my team.

[shrode]

elixer was trolling, so he should have gotten told to stop custom randoming by the admin but not banned as this issue has never been brought up before. sunaku has a point tho, that there is clearly no point to allow custom randoming of one plane.

don't let your guys' dislike of sunaku get in the way of rational thought

[Smushface]

Originally Posted by Sunaku

Here is what I don't understand : how should I, or his teammates or anyone, know what he is or isn't randoming? How can you determine if he is playing one single plane, without paying a disproportionate amount of attention to his perks?
The reason why random was banned is because your teammates shouldn't have to worry that you're messing up with team composition. And if someone has to spend several seconds at each of your spawn to check if your random isn't so random, then you are still hurting your team.
In the end, it doesn't matter if someone is randoming one, 2 or 5 planes; the number of planes is irrelevant because the impact on his whole team is the same.

Fine, I'll respond to this.

You are over-exaggerating the harm done by Elixer's actions. The impact is not the same. SSD's rambling, drawn out post hits all the main points. That is our difference in interpretation.

Reminder of why the rule exists:

Originally Posted by ryebone

The problem with playing random lies not in individual, but with team psyche. The basic principle is that a single player's role is partially determined by what his teammates' roles are; when even one person's role isn't set, it affects everyone else on the team.

Say I'm playing a bomber. In ballmode, that basically makes me the jack of all trades. Sometimes I go for the ball when nearby allies are whales, sometimes I sit back and shoot if nearby allies are loopies/randas. If my team is five whales, I know I'll probably be the primary ballhandler, and will be going after the ball 100% of the time. If my team is five loopies, I'll be content going after the ball 0% of the time. Obviously, that percentage should be somewhere in the middle. If the team composition stays the same throughout the game, I can keep the same mindset the entire game, which helps me get used to (and thus be effective in) the role I'm playing, whatever it happens to be.

Now imagine I'm a bomber, and my team is five randoms. Now I have absolutely no idea what my role is, because I don't know what any of my teammates' roles are. Sometimes I should be going after the ball, other times I should be sitting back, but I don't know when. Sure I could just press tab, but why the **** would I want to do that when its much easier for my teammates to just stop being bitches and just pick a plane and stick with it?

The tl;dr version: playing random doesn't make you suck. It makes your teammates suck, but it's because of you that they suck.

You are right though. Elixer was somewhat out of line, so I'll do this:

OFFICIAL ADMIN DECREE: Elixer, stop custom randoming one play you ****tard.

[drunkguava]

Originally Posted by Smushface

OFFICIAL ADMIN DECREE: Elixer, stop custom randoming one play you ****tard.

seconded. It really isn't necessary to allow custom random.

Originally Posted by Kuja900

Custom random is far more convenient then having to manually switch your plane every time you die.

Suck it up.

[Evan20000]

I just talked to Hurri. Butthurt report forms will be here in 2-3 days.

[elxir]

Originally Posted by Evan20000

I just talked to Hurri. Butthurt report forms will be here in 2-3 days.

gonna need a whole stack!

[bradgillis]

Hi, I got banned for 14 days because i made a "Stop Tournament" vote. I know that I'f im specing I can't make a vote and that's why I asked people before I made this vote. The onley people who answered was Nip, he was playing and said yes, so I decided to make the vote and an admin banned me for 14 days :'(

[mikesol]

Originally Posted by bradgillis

Hi, I got banned for 14 days because i made a "Stop Tournament" vote. I know that I'f im specing I can't make a vote and that's why I asked people before I made this vote. The onley people who answered was Nip, he was playing and said yes, so I decided to make the vote and an admin banned me for 14 days :'(

According to the documentation this is your 6th reported offense. By now it should be clear what is and is not acceptable. 14 days is pretty light for a 6th offense. Just because a random player said that you can stop vote does not mean you can. Why were you trying to stop it anyway?

[nobodyhome]

Scene: a basketball court. A bunch of players are playing a 5v5. CCN is one of the players--he hands look blurry and he seems to be blocking shots in places where he isn't and is able to literally pass the ball through people to his teammates. You hear the loud sound of Tyr raging at his teammates in a thick french accent. Braiden, who is not one of the players, comes in and saunters to the side of the court alongside Nipple, who is already watching the game.

Braiden: Hey Nip, do you think I could run in there and tell everyone to stop?
Nip: Lolz sure why not.

Braiden rushes to the middle of the court and waves his hands frantically, jumping up and down.

Braiden: STOOOP! EVERYBODY STOOOOP!

Everyone stops and stares at him quizzically. Tyr stops raging. A man with pie smeared on his face who is standing on the sidelines with his arms crossed wearing a black leather jacket with "LADMIN" emblazed on the back comes in and beats Braiden with a stick and removes him from the court.

Braiden: ??? wtf did I do wrong?

[leggomyeggo]

Originally Posted by bradgillis

Hi, I got banned for 14 days because i made a "Stop Tournament" vote. I know that I'f im specing I can't make a vote and that's why I asked people before I made this vote. The onley people who answered was Nip, he was playing and said yes, so I decided to make the vote and an admin banned me for 14 days :'(

IIRC, it was a changemap vote, and that's why it got denied so fast. Then, I don't remember who, but he said that you couldn't call votes as a spectator, and the only other people who had called votes had been playing.
But, I'm seeming to have a bad memory lately, so idk.

Originally Posted by mikesol

According to the documentation this is your 6th reported offense. By now it should be clear what is and is not acceptable. 14 days is pretty light for a 6th offense. Just because a random player said that you can stop vote does not mean you can. Why were you trying to stop it anyway?

I think the game he's talking about is this one. I don't know who left, but someone on our team left pretty much before the game even started and never came back. But then we bombed and people started to vote 2 I guess. I think that he called a vote after 1 or 2 full hits so maybe that sparked the ban? I dunno.

[EDIT: What nobo said]

P.s. Still not 100% sure of what I just said, but maybe someone else will come along and can confirm.

[ryebone]

Originally Posted by nobodyhome

Scene: a basketball court. A bunch of players are playing a 5v5. CCN is one of the players--he hands look blurry and he seems to be blocking shots in places where he isn't and is able to literally pass the ball through people to his teammates. You hear the loud sound of Tyr raging at his teammates in a thick french accent. Braiden, who is not one of the players, comes in and saunters to the side of the court alongside Nipple, who is already watching the game.

Braiden: Hey Nip, do you think I could run in there and tell everyone to stop?
Nip: Lolz sure why not.

Braiden rushes to the middle of the court and waves his hands frantically, jumping up and down.

Braiden: STOOOP! EVERYBODY STOOOOP!

Everyone stops and stares at him quizzically. Tyr stops raging. A man with pie smeared on his face who is standing on the sidelines with his arms crossed wearing a black leather jacket with "LADMIN" emblazed on the back comes in and beats Braiden with a stick and removes him from the court.

Braiden: ??? wtf did I do wrong?

You made me LOL in the library. I hate you.

[sunshineduck]

Originally Posted by ryebone

You made me LOL in the library. I hate you.

you're ryebone

i hate you

[Evan20000]

Nobo, can you do ban writeups more often?

[Ingbo]

ye that one was pretty funny nobo

[andy]

Yeah i want one every time

Also i think voting changemap (which has a lower threshold than custom_stop) should be bannable also if your in game, it is clearly used to get around the 80% threshold.

[Distraction]

Ok, I'm posting here because Pieface told me to post here.

Early I got banned by Ingbo for "throwing games" I haven't been throwing games at all. I never throw games. I admit, I was having a bad day today, but everybody has there bad days. Before I got banned from Ingbo I got kicked from ladder by SSD. I got disconnected from a game and went to reconnect and when I reconnected the game had just finished. SSD told me to spectate the next game. I was currently in the lobby waiting to see if I was going to be put on a team. I was about to spectate and SSD kicked me. After the 2 minutes were up I missed several ladder games, because ladder was full. Now, back to the ban, when I addressed Pieface of the issue, he asked SSD and Wok3n, they both backed up Ingbo. Coincidentally they have all been on mumble with each other today. They have also been hating on me saying Distraction is bad and such, more than they usually do. I also was playing viable plane setups, I wasn't playing a useless plane.

On the last game I played I was bomb running and I was asked to switch so I did, and I accidentally picked up the bomb so I crashed so Wok3n pick it up ( the current bomb runner ) but he got killed before he picked it up. Then he said Distraction you're banned after this game. After the game had ended Ingbo banned me and Wok3n private messaged me and said get owned. I feel that there was no reason for me to get banned, I could see if I was playing a bad plane setup and not listening to the team at all. But, I was not doing either of this, I thought I was being cooperative with my team, when I was asked to either switch planes or stop running I did. This is why I feel I should not have been banned. I hope something can be done about this, If not so be it I'll serve my 2 day ban.

Distraction

[mikesol]

Originally Posted by Distraction

Ok, I'm posting here because Pieface told me to post here.

Early I got banned by Ingbo for "throwing games" I haven't been throwing games at all. I never throw games. I admit, I was having a bad day today, but everybody has there bad days. Before I got banned from Ingbo I got kicked from ladder by SSD. I got disconnected from a game and went to reconnect and when I reconnected the game had just finished. SSD told me to spectate the next game. I was currently in the lobby waiting to see if I was going to be put on a team. I was about to spectate and SSD kicked me. After the 2 minutes were up I missed several ladder games, because ladder was full. Now, back to the ban, when I addressed Pieface of the issue, he asked SSD and Wok3n, they both backed up Ingbo. Coincidentally they have all been on mumble with each other today. They have also been hating on me saying Distraction is bad and such, more than they usually do. I also was playing viable plane setups, I wasn't playing a useless plane.

On the last game I played I was bomb running and I was asked to switch so I did, and I accidentally picked up the bomb so I crashed so Wok3n pick it up ( the current bomb runner ) but he got killed before he picked it up. Then he said Distraction you're banned after this game. After the game had ended Ingbo banned me and Wok3n private messaged me and said get owned. I feel that there was no reason for me to get banned, I could see if I was playing a bad plane setup and not listening to the team at all. But, I was not doing either of this, I thought I was being cooperative with my team, when I was asked to either switch planes or stop running I did. This is why I feel I should not have been banned. I hope something can be done about this, If not so be it I'll serve my 2 day ban.

Distraction

So while I wasn't there - I must say this is one of the few complaints that is actually thought out, polite, and respectful. Props for being a good sport about it and doing what this was meant for. The admins will talk more about it and get back to you.

[Ingbo]

Ye was just gona thank you for not creating an entirely new thread about it too. The reason i banned you was because you were asked several times in that game to not pick up the bomb and continued to do so. The last time you picked it up they had a bomb run close to our base and woken told you again not to pick the bomb up as they were coming and you replied "fine you do it then" and crashed while they were running into our base both giving up a bomb hit by not trying to nuke or defend properly and losing a bomb for us = throwing a game.

[Distraction]

Wok3n only told me to lay off and said that he was running. He only told me once not to bomb run, I just checked the chat logs. And when he said this:
[21:19] [Team] ACE.Wok3N: im running
[21:19] [Team] ACE.Wok3N: i won't hop
[21:20] [Team] {balL|}'n: i say try it
[21:20] [Team] ACE.Wok3N: distraction
[21:20] [Team] ACE.Wok3N: lay off
[21:20] [Team] ACE.Wok3N: u are awful

is when I crashed so he could get the bomb. I understand that this was not the right move, but I was just fed up with people hating on me today, and wok3n wanted to run so I was giving him the oppertunity. It's not like other people dont have bad days. I feel that this wasn't a reason to ban, otherwise a lot more people should be banned.

[Ingbo]

Thats not the instance im talking about. That was said earlier. Gimme the source of the entire team convo and ill see if i made a mistake or not. You can pm it to me or post it here either is fine.

[Distraction]

Here it is:
[21:11] [Server] Starting ladder game...
[21:11] [Server] Tournament started. Only players currently on a team will be allowed to spawn.
[21:11] Walls: normal
[21:11] Map: tbd_fallout
[21:11] [aya]G00SE: aya, did u know wok3n only made varisty on his tennis team his senior year?
[21:11] servili007: gl hf
[21:11] ACE.Wok3N: thats not true
[21:12] ACE.Wok3N: i made it freshman year
[21:12] servili007: fin randas
[21:12] [aya]ingbo: :
[21:13] [aya]YorK15k: lol
[21:13] servili007: >_>
[21:13] [Team] {balL|}'n: b
[21:13] ACE.Wok3N: Don't
[21:13] ACE.Wok3N: U guys
[21:13] ACE.Wok3N: just ****ing let
[21:13] ACE.Wok3N: servi
[21:13] [aya]ingbo: gj
[21:13] ACE.Wok3N: run right by u
[21:13] servili007: hahahahaha
[21:13] [aya]YorK15k: gw
[21:14] [aya]YorK15k: so pro
[21:14] [|2] Distraction: !
[21:14] [aya]YorK15k: wait
[21:14] L (\\) l i: ghost bais
[21:14] [aya]YorK15k: that hit
[21:14] [aya]YorK15k: lol
[21:14] ACE.Wok3N: wait
[21:14] ACE.Wok3N: that hit?
[21:14] ACE.GGQ: after going through me
[21:14] [aya]YorK15k: ytes
[21:14] ACE.Wok3N: and it didn't get
[21:14] [aya]YorK15k: hahaha
[21:14] [|2] Distraction: ye
[21:14] ACE.Wok3N: oh
[21:14] [aya]YorK15k: smacked the base
[21:14] Cloud: no it went tru base
[21:14] [aya]YorK15k: in teh face
[21:14] Cloud: ladder doesnt allow wokhop bombs obv!
[21:14] [aya]YorK15k: must be
[21:14] ACE.Wok3N: tyr was looking for u cloud
[21:15] Cloud: when?
[21:15] ACE.Wok3N: 6 hours ago?
[21:15] [Team] {balL|}'n: dude lol
[21:15] Cloud: ..
[21:15] [Team] ACE.Wok3N: dis
[21:15] Cloud: D:
[21:15] [Team] [|2] Distraction: lol
[21:15] [Team] ACE.Wok3N: ur pathetic
[21:15] [Team] [|2] Distraction: shh
[21:15] [aya]YorK15k whispers: putting ur anchor in 1 spot
[21:15] [aya]YorK15k whispers: is useless
[21:15] ACE.Wok3N: gg
[21:15] [aya]YorK15k: woken, do more hops
[21:15] ACE.Wok3N: shh
[21:16] servili007: ffs
[21:16] {balL|}'n: ow
[21:16] [Team] {balL|}'n: nt
[21:16] [Team] [aya]ingbo: mb
[21:16] [Team] [aya]ingbo: na ****ed that up
[21:16] [Team] [aya]ingbo: easy hit
[21:17] ACE.sunshineduck: typicaya
[21:17] {balL|}'n:
[21:17] [Team] ACE.Wok3N: flank him
[21:17] [Team] ACE.Wok3N: u lights
[21:17] ACE.GGQ: sheild what
[21:17] [Team] ACE.Wok3N: u circling does nothing
[21:17] (||)Typicaya: ****
[21:18] ACE.GGQ: manwalls
[21:19] ACE.GGQ: are teh worst
[21:19] [Team] ACE.Wok3N: im running
[21:19] [Team] ACE.Wok3N: i won't hop
[21:20] [Team] {balL|}'n: i say try it
[21:20] [Team] ACE.Wok3N: distraction
[21:20] [Team] ACE.Wok3N: lay off
[21:20] [Team] ACE.Wok3N: u are awful
[21:21] [Nickname Changed] Cloud is now [TYR[Cloud
[21:21] IL|HC: lol
[21:21] [TYR[Cloud: OM;F
[21:21] [TYR[Cloud: G
[21:21] [Team] ACE.Wok3N: distraction
[21:22] [Team] [|2] Distraction: get it than
[21:22] [Team] ACE.Wok3N: distraction
[21:22] [aya]ingbo: oh hji
[21:22] ACE.GGQ: its ok
[21:22] [Team] ACE.Wok3N: u are banned
[21:22] [Team] ACE.Wok3N: after this game
[21:22] ACE.GGQ: one hit
[21:22] ACE.sunshineduck: praya
[21:23] (||)Typicaya: ...

[tgleaf]

Originally Posted by mikesol

So while I wasn't there - I must say this is one of the few complaints that is actually thought out, polite, and respectful. Props for being a good sport about it and doing what this was meant for.

Agreed. What a refreshing change.

[Ingbo]

Think this could go either way tbh... Def see a reason to ban u but since youve been so classy about ur apeal (esp that u didnt try to blurr out the "get it then" part) im gona give u a 2nd chance. If pieface is still on just have him revoke it, or whatever other admin is still on cause im tired and its 5 in the morning and im going to bed. i suggest u be more careful about stuff like this in the future and if u do end up in a situation feeling frustrated wanting to act on that feeling plz feel free not to do so when they are running a bomb right next to your teams base

[Distraction]

Thanks for taking time to read this all and give me a second chance. I will make sure next time that I do not make the same decision and play defense. Thank you again Ingbo.

[Ingbo]

Ait man np thank you too for not having to deal with another rant apeal post. Def a first for me gn

[mikesol]

Not sure if someone else got it or not - but your ban has been repealed. You should be able to get in now. If you can't please send me a pm.

[Evan20000]

A civil ladder ban appeal? This is history in the making, folks.

[Jrathje]

Originally Posted by Evan20000

A civil ladder ban appeal? This is history in the making, folks.

He wasn't quite the first.

[Evan20000]

Yeah, but that was the equivalent of apologizing to a monarch after carpet bombing his country.

[Boko]

I got unbanned from a permban before and the good part is: I didn't even have to make an appeal!

[Wok3N^]

Yea sorry distraction. I was on a 7 game losing streak and I was a bit ragey.

[York]

SSD will always hate on you distraction. He will do whatever it takes to ban people that he doesn't like.


He was playing reverse biplane and I asked him to change, he didn't. Not saying he has to, because it's not a rule that he can't play reverse. But he was playing super awful and basically throwing the game. He can't get kicked or banned and he knows it. Let the haters hate, distraction.

[Jayfourke]

Elixir kicked me for no reason. We'd just played a very long core that he'd raged through most of. 2 on our team were playing dumb bombs, so I tried RevWhale. I later switched to Sniplane. If those were his reasons for kicking me, that's lame.

But I suspect there was no reason, and he was just being a jerk.

Proof:



I'd appreciate it if you could do something about it, thanks.