Loopy double fire balance

[agouti]

I'm not as old as some of the players, but I'm not new either - ace 8 - but I just can't get past the feeling that Loopy's are broken.

Double Fire has no real "con" to make Tracker worth picking. Every other red perk you loose something to gain something else, however Double Fire is just a free buff. The missile spread isn't even worth mentioning since the missiles snap-lock to any target anyway.

It wasn't so bad before EMP did damage on direct hit, but it seems that Double Fire is the #1 used perk, bar none. For all the other planes, each perk has a pro and a con, but Double Fire vs Tracker - virtually nobody uses Tracker, except if they don't have Double Fire unlocked. It seems silly to have Tracker as the only perk in the entire game that is treated as "only use because you don't have anything better unlocked".

While Loopy's are balanced in 5v5 or 7v7, as soon as you start play low player games, like 3 or 4 player FFA or 1dm, or get a team full of them on an open map like Football...

The burst DPS of Double Fire, with EMP doing damage, is almost as good as any other plane. Certainly enough to kill a non-Heavy Armour Loopy/Bip/Randa in one pass, and have enough time to kill anything else from the effects of EMP.

Anyway, I would like to see Double Fire take a hit in some form, either increased energy usage - each shot uses 2x the energy of Tracker/Acid Bomb (which makes sense, 2x missiles = 2x energy) or a nerf to Double Fire EMP, such as vastly increased cooldown - which I think all Loopy's need anyway, I don't think you should be able to perma-EMP someone. Could we have Rubberized Hull provide a decent form of EMP-protection?

Another possibility is having the "lock on" range or maximum missile range reduced down, or in some other way nerfed, which would make sense since you are giving up Tracker.

I like the idea of replacing the Double Fire perk with one which increases the damage done by the missiles (and size of the sprite) but stops them from homing in, or vastly reduces the turn rate of the missiles and slightly increases the energy used per shot. Kind of like a Big Missile perk.



I understand a lot of people don't feel that Double Fire is overpowered or if it gets nerfed then it will stop being a competitive pick, so perhaps it needs reworking/replacing instead of just nerfing.


*waits for flame*


*edit*
Also, is anyone else irritated that EMP slows your turn speed to the same speed regardless of whether you have Flexible Wings?

[elxir]

I would like to respectfully disagree. Tracker is extremely useful versus certain planes on certain maps.

At first yes, everyone thinks twice as many bullets is twice as awesome. However, the increased seeking ability and damage of single bullets can be monumentally effective in the right scenarios.

Double fire is really not very effective if you are not in a tight corridor or straight line with your opponent.

[tgleaf]

Originally Posted by agouti

While Loopy's are balanced in 5v5 or 7v7, as soon as you start play low player games, like 3 or 4 player FFA or 1dm, or get a team full of them on an open map like Football...

It's impossible to balance all of the planes for every conceivable playing size and map. As an example, we've banned time-anchor mirandas from the Street Ballaz tournament because in 3v3 BALL, TA is way overpowered. But I wouldn't ask for TA to be nerfed because of it.

It's been pointed out before that at the highest competitive levels, DF loopies -- or any loopies for that matter -- are few and far between. It's rare to see two or even three loopies per team in most high-level matches. So it seems that loopy is pretty well balanced, all things considered.

Is your main concern really 3v3/4v4/Football, or did I miss something?

[Greekjr14]

As a reply to the edit post, I do find it quite annoying. It doesn't matter if I have on flexi or heavy armor on my biplane because once I end up against an emp loopy, flexi does nothing imo.

[agouti]

elxir: could you elaborate on

However, the increased seeking ability and damage of single bullets...

The seeking ability seemed, to me, exactly the same - the missiles have the same speed and near-infinite turn rate, the range for lock-on seems the same etc... ? Does anyone have figures for damage between the 2? I still rarely see Tracker used, in any situation.

tgleaf:
I know Loopy's are not OP, I was mainly referring to yes 3v3 or 3/4 player FFA type situations.

If I'm wrong about Tracker vs DF I guess my main irritants are the cooldown of EMP being so much lower than the effect time, letting you easily perma-EMP someone (I think reducing the time EMP affects you or increasing the cooldown would be reasonable, Loopy's are about run and gun anyway) in conjunction with the damage a direct hit deals.

It used to be much better before they added damage for EMP, because if you wanted to perma-EMP someone you took a giant hit to your DPS in doing so. With the huge damage it does now, it is a bit over the top.

Most of the kits are rock-paper-scissors type situations vs other kits, but EMP works so well against everything - and as a randa it makes me cry :'(

[elxir]

Tracker is much more maneuverable than double fire.

Additionally, tracker bullets deal more individual damage. If you miss with some of your double fire bullets, it is not as effective as tracker.

[Evan20000]

If you're a randa, you should be eating loopies for breakfast.

[Mandrad]

Randas eat everything at breakfast... their so OP

[agouti]

In a 1v1 situation it's quite difficult to kill a good loopy with randa. They get a spammable AOE - EMP - as well as having better burst damage head to head and being impossible to dodge in the open. An EMP and 3 or 4 pairs of rockets will kill a randa, and stop you from doing a dash combo as they hit you.

Randas do less damage, turn slower, and are just as paper thin. The only thing which makes them better is using reverse/TA and dash - EMP gets rid of dash and all you have is reverse (I don't have TA unlocked atm) so if they are smart and give themselves enough space to stop you reversing around them then there isn't much you can do. Wall hugging and corner sniping will only get you so far.

[Evan20000]

Originally Posted by agouti

They get a spammable AOE - EMP - as well as having better burst damage head to head.

I think there has been a serious miscommunication. We were talking about Loopy vs Miranda matchup, which that is blatantly false. Laser can kill an armored loopy in one shot, as can a flourished dash combo. Not getting hit by EMP is a matter of learning to dodge. Also, your spamshots can kill an unarmored loops in one salvo.

[agouti]

I was wondering when the old "Learn to " line would come out. When they are AOE and can be fired every second, constantly, in your direction, it only takes one hit. The DPS of laser is lower in addition to having shorter range compared to EMP + DF - missiles can be stacked as well.

I was merely responding to the 2 off topic posts saying that randas are OP.


/closed imo.

[Evan20000]

Originally Posted by agouti

I was wondering when the old "Learn to " line would come out.

I can't wave a magic wand and make you good at dodging EMPs. Sorry to burst your bubble.

When they are AOE and can be fired every second, constantly, in your direction, it only takes one hit.

Actually, EMP has a fairly long cooldown time. You mentioned you're a miranda; if you warp out of the way of the initial EMP, they can't do anything but hold F as you dash warp them. Also, if you're up close and do end up getting EMP'd, then you can use your reverses to make sure you're constantly behind them and shoot them from behind.

The DPS of laser is lower in addition to having shorter range compared to EMP + DF - missiles can be stacked as well.

Laser has one of the highest DPS in the game, and the range while annoying, can be closed with a dash leading to a near guaranteed kill.

I was merely responding to the 2 off topic posts saying that randas are OP.

Not off topic at all. You stated the problem you were having (Loopies with DF). The competitive community sees them as balanced as a whole, so it's very unlikely they will be changed. Instead of calling you a noob and sending you on your way, we're giving you tips for the plane you said you use and clearing up misconceptions about the loopy. Why you are rejecting them is beyond me.

/closed imo.

Replies in bold.

[Sarah Palin]

Double Fire has no real "con" to make Tracker worth picking.

Completely untrue, Tracker's increased seeking makes it much better against Mirandas than Double Fire.

The problem for Tracker is that, once you learn Acid, that's even better against Miranda opponents.

Also if you're looking for perks to buff because nobody uses them start with Biplane's Dogfighter and Bomber's Dumb Bombs.

[DMCM]

Double Fire tracks too and does more damage than Tracker.

If you alraedy have the target EMP'd (which is how loopies get most kills) then Double Fire is much better than Tracker.

DF is better for spamming too.

[tgleaf]

Originally Posted by Evan20000

If you're a randa, you should be eating loopies for breakfast.

Actually, they eat Fruit Loopies.

[Stormich]

Didn't read of all of the thread but as to the main problem of randa vs DF in 3v3 doesn't randa rape anything when there's small numbers of planes? You have the most mobile plane and you have enough time go get to cover considering DF has smaller lock on range than tracker. You should just keep an eye on the playing field better.

Regarding anything DF or any other plane for that matter I really feel all the other planes are pretty balanced except biplane cause it has no exact role.

[Fartface]

Originally Posted by agouti

For all the other planes, each perk has a pro and a con, but Double Fire vs Tracker - virtually nobody uses Tracker, except if they don't have Double Fire unlocked. It seems silly to have Tracker as the only perk in the entire game that is treated as "only use because you don't have anything better unlocked".

I agree that tracker is generally useless. I wouldn't mind seeing some of the updates you mentioned, either. But if they don't update it, I suggest putting flexible wings and reverse thrust on tracker to change it from a bad plane to a bad yet fun and hilarious plane.

[wolf'j'max]

Originally Posted by Stormich

ASDF double post

you can delete your post by going to 'edit' next to save there is 'delete'
do it.

[Flight 666]

again,again and again.

[Zombi]

[s]

Originally Posted by Flight 666

again,again and again.

People will continue opening threads like this until the problem is solved.

Originally Posted by agouti

For all the other planes, each perk has a pro and a con, but Double Fire vs Tracker - virtually nobody uses Tracker, except if they don't have Double Fire unlocked. It seems silly to have Tracker as the only perk in the entire game that is treated as "only use because you don't have anything better unlocked".

^This is the crux of the matter... OK, once more, but this time without hatred against loopies:


Remove the tracking from the double fire

[Sarah Palin]

People will continue opening threads like this until the problem is solved.

Or until you learn to fly, soooo I guess for a long tiemz.

[Sunaku]

Telling people to "l2fly" against a plane that totally negates piloting is comedy gold. Let me give you a hint with these 3 letters : EMP.
Oh credibility, where have you gone ?

[drunkguava]

those rockets are so fricking slow that removing tracking would make them useless

[Zombi]

Originally Posted by Sarah Palin

Or until you learn to fly, soooo I guess for a long tiemz.

I have not opened this thread


P.S. I don't need to freeze my enemies and tracking to kill them

[agouti]

I've been thinking a little on it and I think replacing DF with a perk which makes the rockets do more damage (still in a single fire type fashion) but removes the homing component would be good. It makes the plane technically better, but harder to use - which is the idea behind a number of other perks.

It would still be useful, but turns the loopy into more of a close range damage dealer like the biplanes. There would need to be some balancing, EMP duration might need tweaking if their DPS goes up to far, but it would be more inline with the way perks work on other planes.

Originally Posted by Sarah Palin

Also if you're looking for perks to buff because nobody uses them start with Biplane's Dogfighter and Bomber's Dumb Bombs.

I use both those perks... dogfighter does conciderably more damage close range then recoiless, and you can use it as a reverse thrust if you either don't have that unlocked or prefer ultra (as I do).
The bombers bombs are brilliant for point guarding in TBD, and are exceptionally useful vs loopies as well.

Originally Posted by Sarah Palin

Completely untrue, Tracker's increased seeking makes it much better against Mirandas than Double Fire.

In what way? For all loopy perks the missiles have near-infinite turn speed and home in the same way, over the same range, at the same velocity...

DF just seems to stand out as being odd - all other perks you very clearly give something up to gain something else. The only other perk close is Recoiless vs Dogfighter but there it just does less damage while being easier to manage, so becomes a personal preference.

Bombers, whales, mirandas - every perk you lose a specific ability or weapon to be replaced with something else. Tracker/Double Fire is the one exception (not counting Dogfighter/Recoiless, which is balanced regardless).

[MajorPayne257]

Originally Posted by agouti

Also, re: people who say Tracker "homes" better, in what way? For all loopy perks the missiles have near-infinite turn speed and home in the same way, over the same range, at the same velocity...

If you do look closely with tracker, you'll notice that it has a lot more flexibility than DF. It has better overall tracking, which really helps against those randas.

[agouti]

I must admit never been a huge loopy user, so you may be right. I still think replacing double fire with a higher damage, non-homing rocket in single fire mode would be a really good change.

[nobodyhome]

it's incorrect that "double the missiles" is better. each DF missile has reduced damage from the tracker one and also costs less energy. this is in addition to the added tracking that tracker has, which makes them much more useful in hitting faster opponents.

the real reason why people don't use tracker is that if you're in need of better tracking on your missiles, you might as well go acid. acid is definitively more powerful than EMP when you have only one missile.

[Zombi]

Originally Posted by agouti

The only other perk close is Recoiless vs Dogfighter but there it just does less damage while being easier to manage, so becomes a personal preference.

Some people use Dogfighter because of the "recoil fake reverse". It can be very useful (and I love it )

[Sarah Palin]

I must admit never been a huge loopy user

Hmm and yet you and other non-Loopy users keep discussing Loopy pros and cons, in the abstract.

TRY PLAYING loopy and you will see that Tracker is way better against Mirandas than Double Fire.

[Madnesss]

From what I've seen and played, with mostly experienced players on the server, everythig seems to be quite balanced and fair no matter what planes people fly. Sure, if you keep getting killed by emp loopies, you will complain and say they are op. You just need to develop your tactics more. If ur a randa it is up to you to dodge the emp.

Madnesssz0r

[agouti]

Sarah, 4500 life time loopy kills, 3600 lifetime loopy deaths. Please take your trolling elsewhere.

madness: I'm not necessarily saying that the loopy is OP, merely that the way the DF perk works seems silly and out of place. What I think would be best is not a nerf but a rework.

At the same time I think Tracker could use a little buff.

On a side note, I'd like to see Rubberized Hull given a huge buff vs EMP, to both make it a more viable pick and help out the nubs.

[Evan20000]

I would think tracker is the one in need of a buff. It's not useless, but certainly doesn't have much of a place in competitave games. Hell, DF doesn't see a ton of play because Acid is usually better. I think the problem with tracker is that it doesn't do anything that DF or Acid can't. :x

[agouti]

Originally Posted by Evan20000

I would think tracker is the one in need of a buff. It's not useless, but certainly doesn't have much of a place in competitave games. Hell, DF doesn't see a ton of play because Acid is usually better. I think the problem with tracker is that it doesn't do anything that DF or Acid can't. :x

+1, close to what I've been trying to say. The hardcore loopies are saying that tracker is better in some places, but really, compared with the differences that all other perks offer it's still pretty lame. A tiny buff to tracker (something like +10% damage +5% energy usage), and a rework of DF would make the loopy a much more versatile plane.

Not sure if Tracker really needs a buff, I think it's unused mainly because for most people if they don't want acid they will take DF. For me, playing on random, I'm kind of undecided between the 2, but I find DF easier to deal out the DPS with over Tracker... however Tracker doesn't feel particularly underpowered. Hence my initial statements saying that DF was over rather than Tracker being under.

Actually, one thing that gets me is Loopies are kind of undecided about what they are. On one side, they make great crowd control and support, with EMP and acid, but their primary is set up for miranda style camping/sniping and run-and-gunning/chasing. Seems a little strange :s

[Evan20000]

The reality is that tracker is better in some places, but not enough places imo. I can't speak from the perspective of other planes, but as a Miranda, I have never been afraid of a tracker. Not once.

[agouti]

Yeah, to be honest DF scares me more than Tracker, just from extra DPS to take advantage of a EMP hit. Tracker is usually easy enough to get away from, it's EMP + DF up close and personal that takes me down.

[Evan20000]

As annoying as EMP is, I'm way more afraid of Acid then any other loopy type. Acid turns your armor to paper, and it keeps killing you even if you try to get away.

[agouti]

but at least with acid you can still run

Anyway, hopefully one of the devs sees the thread, can be bothered skipping all the trolling, and maybe the seed for a bit of loopy reworking is planted


Oh, reminds me (might put this in it's own thread at some point)

Would it be too much of a nerf to make it so that pure acid damage will not kill you? Like, it will take you down to 1 HP but not actually finish you off?

[Sarah Palin]

Originally Posted by agouti

Sarah, 4500 life time loopy kills, 3600 lifetime loopy deaths. Please take your trolling elsewhere.

Yeah ok we can play the e-peen measuring game (but note that I didn't pull out mine till you started)



(ball kills ratios )

I'm far from the most experienced loopy btw.

But since I'm 11x more experienced than you you're gonna have to take my word for it that Tracker is better than Double Fire in some situations, such as TBD vs a lot of Mirandas. Tracker is one option in your Loopy toolbox.

In most other situations Acid is far superior to Double Fire OR Tracker, and that's ok because Acid takes more skill and experience to use well. It SHOULD be better. Tracker is a stepping stone to pro mode, just like Director is a stepping stone to pro mines or pro missiles. Very few experienced players use Director once they've mastered Remote or Thermo. That doesn't mean Director needs a buff.

Loopy doesn't need any kind of reworking. Whale, Biplane and Miranda have been fiddled with quite a bit over the past 3 patches but Loopy has stayed the same because it's already very well balanced.

[Evan20000]

I partially agree. Tracker is pretty UP. Not horribly bad, just UP. Can we work on dumb bombs next?