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#41
10-01-2010, 05:58 AM
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Second thoughts:
* Would like to see time anchor pushed back from 30% -> 20% but it's really not a *huggee* deal * Biplane is actually very viable. I'd contend that it's almost *too* viable. I feel like it could surpass time anchor in bomb running but I'd have to experiment more with it. I guess we'll see how it is when you reduce it slightly. I question why biplane can beat loopies in speed and maneuverability though. 
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#42
10-01-2010, 05:59 AM
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Hmmmm this is a very intresting patch.... Speaking from the perspective of a whale, personally I am not as scared of loopies anymore at all. Now biplanes can run in faster before I have time to readjust and defend myself, which is something I have to watch for a lot more now...
Also, a circling/protective biplane on my team has found it quite easy to take out loopies who dare to be aggressive while a biplane has enough health to withstand a bit to get off his damage. If I had to think about it the more supportive loopy role can fit, but they’d need increased manuverability – or a health buff so they can play flexi – to allow them to play this role and hurt biplanes who come in their area (instead of being slower and less manuverable to a flexi biplane) – as well as dodge mines and such when assaulting a whale from the back.
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#43
10-01-2010, 06:09 AM
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buffing a double fire loopy would make it too strong though - it still emp spikes **** down. I can see tracker/Acid for reals though as their dps can't come in such a burst to end a fight right there.
Last edited by CCN; 10-01-2010 at 06:12 AM.
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#44
10-01-2010, 06:31 AM
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My impressions after some (non-competitive) play testing:
1) Reduced energy on dogfighter/recoilless secondary feels unnecessary; partial rollback likely 2) Topspeed on dogfighter/recoilless feels too high now, but the extra burner on dogfighter really opens up the plane for its intended role. Dogfighter can now commit to dirty close-range dogfighting, particularly deliberate stalls for ideal kill angles, now that its buffed burners provide hope for recovery (before a random loopy whisks by to finish it off). I'm considering rolling back the burner buff on recoilless altogether and re-implementing the dogfighter burner as a velocity-dependent engine: at low speeds it'll provide significantly enhanced efficiency with the bonus acceleration disappearing as velocity reaches cruising speed [so instead of +30% at all times he'll get +60% at dead stop, +0% at cruise speed -- providing even better stall recovery but eliminating the current top-speed bonus]. This would also help differentiate recoilless/dogfighter a little more: dogfighter would excel in pitched battles / deliberate stalls while recoilless would remain more dependent on maintaining velocity. 3) HC pierce felt a little strong in ball matches (where plane stacking is very common) -- perhaps 75% / 40% would work better? 4) Have to agree with Vi that offscreen snipes from the new Trickster feel annoying; any ideas for a replacement buff? Thoughts? I'm looking to implement a followup patch tomorrow: competitive playtesting results and additional feedback would help!
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#45
10-01-2010, 06:45 AM
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Reduce trick buff to 8% or something?
If not, scrap it entirely. It was just brainstorming and trick really never needed a buff anyway. It sort of pains me to say that because shooting people landing on their base from the middle of roids is so fun :3
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#46
10-01-2010, 06:50 AM
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For trickster, rollback the whole ranged buff and replace it with the old nerf so one shot can hit a person more than once, that is what it was intended for, no? =]
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#49
10-01-2010, 07:23 AM
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I got an idea for HC pierce. Would it be possible to adjust the piercing damage depending on the plane that gets hit?
For example, the Explodet would soften a shot on a plane behind it better then a fragile loopy would, being full of twinkies and all... Anyway, just an idea to play around with.
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#50
10-01-2010, 08:23 AM
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2 HC + acid stack is looking scary...
Edit: I misread at first and thought I was imaging that HC secondary was mega-powerful tonight. Yes, definitely remove that. Wayyy too much damage when you're up close. Last edited by elxir; 10-01-2010 at 08:27 AM.
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#51
10-01-2010, 08:25 AM
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I always play HC/flexible wings/reverse thrust and i think that this change will encourage creative play with the biplane. HC:s secondary have some pretty cool usages in combination with reverse thrust. It increases breaking power and increases reverse thrust steering in small spaces with high speed. It is also the thing that saves me from going into walls when EMP´d using reverse. The problem with it has been that it drains too much energy making the use of the secondary fire pretty risky until i get some bars.
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#52
10-01-2010, 10:50 AM
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I'd like to throw out a word of caution to those who think that this patch makes the biplane too overpowered: remember the last biplane buff? Everybody thought that the biplane was OP immediately after it was buffed too, then a week passed and people realized it still wasn't.
On loopy vs biplane: sure biplanes can destroy loopies now when they position themselves well, but remember that since the major change here was the afterburner energy usage, biplanes are still pretty much the same way they were pre-patch when emp'ed and unable to afterburn: dead meat for loopies. It's just now loopies actually have to be careful when approaching a biplane. Good thing, imho.
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#53
10-01-2010, 10:58 AM
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I don't think a rollback should be made for the biplane energy usage buff. The extra speed brought by this buff, finally gives biplane a role in the game.
Loopies still have the missile spam, the EMP to reduce enemies mobility and more turning ratio. Also I'm with nobo on this one, loopies now have to be careful when approaching a biplane, but why shouldn't they?
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#54
10-01-2010, 11:09 AM
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Also if a rollback is to be done for the biplane, I'd rather it be for the secondary energy usage than for the afterburner. The reason is that the main reason why biplane wasn't good in competitive tbd wasn't because of its lack of damage, but its inability to survive in large scale multi-plane battles. It definitely had enough damage to hold its own in 1v1 engagements, but with larger scale fights it needs the afterburner buff to be able to dart in and out effectively. Also I feel that the afterburner buff has less of an impact in the dm modes than does a damage buff, which is desirable since the biplane is fine in dm.
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#55
10-01-2010, 11:24 AM
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Also I would prefer a rollback to the weapon damage from one previous buff some months ago than to the afterburner energy usage. Cause this may finally create a role for biplane while the weapon buff didn't brought much to the biplane.
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#56
10-01-2010, 12:05 PM
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Haven't played it yet, but looks like a crazy/interesting patch. Some random thoughts:
- I agree with Nobo's words of caution: if we don't like the FEEL of the new Biplane, then that's a good reason to roll things back and try something else. However, we should wait until some more games are played before declaring it overpowered. - I don't really get why Trickster was buffed, it seemed fine to me. - Base health bar change is going to be great to have.  - Base damage recommendation: why not just round the actual damage value to the nearest integer? It'll only make a difference in like 1% of games and will solve the problem where there's a mismatch between reported damage and the % indicator next to the base health bars (which could actually be important, since now it'll be very clear how many more hits a base needs to be destroyed... in edge cases players might get screwed by this if the two numbers don't match up).
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#57
10-01-2010, 02:06 PM
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please don't roll it back
i'm so happy if anything roll back damage and leave the new mobility; as nice as it is to finally have a hc secondary that is actually useful, and as amazing as it is to herald the return of pierce as more than a visual effect, the new mobility feels amazingly right and flying rev bip has never felt more fun or agile. please don't though, having two buttons to consider on hc instead of just one is AMAZING and having pierce actually work is AMAZING, thank you for the patch
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#58
10-01-2010, 02:18 PM
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I think most people waving the OP flag this early are a bit crazy, lets at least wait a week to let the new changes sink in before we start asking for rollbacks to be implemented.
Last edited by Kuja900; 10-01-2010 at 02:47 PM.
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#59
10-01-2010, 02:33 PM
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Nice buff, but it doesn't change much in the end. It still doesn't match TA's unpredictability, pace control and sheer amount of choices in terms of bomb running. Explodets still control everything. Loopy is still a valid choice due to emp and auto aim and bomber always better for choke control. So in the end nothing really changed, it still has no real role in competitive play.
It is however better for running around in pubs and engaging in 1v1s getting gold bars but that's not really the point. The big difference between pubs and league games is in real games you can't always pick your spots, do what you want and have the time to do it. In real matches, often times you have a big blob of planes coming towards your base and you must engage to protect it. Here's what happens: As an Explodet you can slow down, and oftentimes completely nullify a 5man attack on your own. As a bomber you can spam from range or use flak while blocking your base/net from an easy bomb drop/goal at the same time. As a loopy you also spam from range, use emp to destroy momentum and though you might not kill much, you disable the opponents and serve them on a platter to your teammates. Miranda Snipes from range, warps through everyone and then also has the ability to instantly change direction and block a bomb/catch a ball. HC with the improved pierce can now do good damage from long range and actually be effective, although due to versatility, Miranda would still be a better choice for sniping and bomber still more useful for choke control. As for the recoiless, what happens is you get in close to the blob get tossed around by explodets and owned by random spam, might kill a plane and do some damage to others and you're simply not really helping the team nearly as much as you could if you played any of the actual useful planes. This also applies when you're on the attacking side not just for defending. There's simply a better plane to fill any role you need. Bomb running is still the same story, when there's a plane that can consistently run circles around multiple opponents and is considered "cheap" to use when it's less than a 5v5 because it simply goes through everyone like they weren't there, that's always going to be your bomb runner. Last edited by NomNom; 10-01-2010 at 02:35 PM. Reason: spelling
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#60
10-01-2010, 02:58 PM
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Does the Miranda's trickster shot maintain it's damage level regardless of range? It seems to me that once the shot reaches a certain distance, it should lose it's strength at an exponential rate before disappearing. So while you may hit a plane at the furthest reach of it's shot, it won't do much damage.
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#62
10-01-2010, 03:16 PM
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I happen to disagree with NomNom. Although in TBD the bomb carrier is pretty much one player, in ball, there's a lot of passing, so the ball pretty much cycles trough the whole team.
With this in mind, in a ball team biplane is now one of the best options for a runner. It can run longer cause it has more health than a loopy, it has more capacity to engage in close combat (recoilless) wich happens a lot in ball, and now, it has more speed. So I would say that this buff, brings biplane into competition, at least in ball mode.
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#63
10-01-2010, 03:18 PM
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TA is one of the easiest planes to predict, you just need to make him use the anchor when YOU want and not him. Im tired of hearing people complain about TA v_v Imo biplane has always been and will always be a better bomb carrier. Now it's even better obv. Last edited by tyr; 10-01-2010 at 03:21 PM.
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#64
10-01-2010, 03:22 PM
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#65
10-01-2010, 03:23 PM
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#67
10-01-2010, 03:25 PM
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Last edited by Kuja900; 10-01-2010 at 03:50 PM.
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#68
10-01-2010, 03:28 PM
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#69
10-01-2010, 03:28 PM
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I don't see why it's a problem
Biplane and TA are two completely different types of runners so obviously it requires a different strategy to stop them. What's wrong with that ? That being said, I think the strategy to stop TAs is easier to do (even if it is more intense/stressful) than the more normal battle against a biplane runner. Especially if the TA team relies a bit too much on their runner.
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#70
10-01-2010, 03:28 PM
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#71
10-01-2010, 03:31 PM
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#72
10-01-2010, 03:35 PM
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Yes it is, if you play as a team, as you can basically make him be in a certain spot precisely at the moment that you want, and act accordingly to kill him/make him lose time.
Loopy is a bad comparison as it's too fragile and the force required to make the TA go where you want would simply kill the loopy. The others are more solid but as I said it requires a different strategy and you won't use a loopy the same way you use a TA.
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#74
10-01-2010, 03:43 PM
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In my opinion the best albeit unreasonable thing to do is to save the anchor for last and let a heavy keep him still while the defense focuses on his support first before engaging the anchor.
Last edited by Kuja900; 10-01-2010 at 03:51 PM.
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#75
10-01-2010, 03:46 PM
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#76
10-01-2010, 03:56 PM
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One competent explo can stop ta. Give an acid or an hc and its most likely over.
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#77
10-01-2010, 04:02 PM
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Last edited by NomNom; 10-01-2010 at 04:12 PM.
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#78
10-01-2010, 04:11 PM
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#79
10-01-2010, 04:33 PM
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#80
10-01-2010, 04:38 PM
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However, if you wish to argue that TA is harder to stop than biplane - that's an entirely different story. I'd point out that every plane should not be equal. Should a bomber be as good at bombing as a TA? No. The game would be boring. Is a TA harder to stop than a bip? Maybe if you've never practiced against one. It seems to me that the average player (or even the better than average player) has not played against TA enough times with their own team to make an actual qualified judgment on it. Biplanes require a completely different skill set both to stop and to play. If it just so happens that the average players skill set is more in tune with a biplane then that doesn't make TA op. Of course, with the latest buff, biplane has certainly gotten a whole lot easier. I also practiced 1v1 and 1v2 with the new biplane. Considering I rarely if ever play it - I did very well (although not as well as TA which I've played for months). I feel like biplane has the potential to be a better runner than TA with the current buffs (not that that's a bad thing). Last edited by mikesol; 10-01-2010 at 05:17 PM.
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