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#42
07-10-2009, 04:47 AM
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I actually like the direction HC is going here. Having both the big gun and the more accurate secondary is great. Now, if I'm chasing the bomb and I've used up too much energy for that last HC kill shot, I can just chew his tail with the secondary.
I also find that I kill up close a little more consistently now with the new HC. Instead of having a bullet hose that just shoots little rounds everywhere for a secondary, I have a secondary that lines up with my primary shots, so if I'm hitting with the big gun, I'm actually hitting with the little one too. It takes some minor getting used to in terms of aiming, but overall, HC seems to be moving in a good direction from where I stand. I say take away most, if not all of the range nerf to make the HC a true sniper's plane, if that's what you want it to be. Also, add a little range increase to the secondary. 
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#43
07-10-2009, 06:55 AM
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I just don't like the direction that the balance adjustments have gone going back to when you removed pierce from Miranda. (which was probably 6-8 months ago). I think that in any game you look for an advantage over other players (obvious) but it just seems like the balance keeps going in the direction of removing any possible advantage. And I don't mean advantage from one plane to another, I just mean an advantage in terms of tactics, flying ability, energy usage, etc. I know that this is not your (lam/karl) intent but it continually feels like the ability to gain an advantage through skill has been severely diminished.
The reason being that whenever a plane is deemed "over powered" the reason has always been because it does "too much damage" or "kills people too fast." The reason is never seriously looked at as being because the players that use it tend to be plain better at the game. A good example is the Miranda. I am not saying that it didn't need minor adjustment, but the reason people complained about it was not because it was grossly over powered but because the people that used it were far more skilled than the players they were killing. This was back in beta so anyone could use the plane and most of the people who complained that it was "easy mode" were unpleasantly surprised when they realized it wasn't as easy to play as they thought (once they had unlocked it and were able to use it). This happened again with the bomber. For what seemed like no other reason than the fact that it was abused by under skilled demo players who liked to spam choke points, it had it's fire rate reduced by 40%. In any normal game (non-demo players) you wouldn't see more than 1 or 2 bombers prior to that change. Now that plane is in my mind is basically unplayable. If you take any of the planes with burst damage and line 5 of them up then it's going to look overpowered! That doesn't mean you should nerf it until it's usefulness is destroyed. Every plane seems to have received the nerf that removes it's ability to gain an advantage in the game. (except the loopy because it's really the only plane without a "burst option") Even the explodet can't explode a missile within any reasonable distance from itself because it will just cause a suicide which then leaves the plane sitting there like an idiot sometimes fumbling to get mines out in order to destroy the plane that's pounding on it from 25 pixels away. And now the biplane gets its nerf. The problem isn't that it's overpowered, it's that the people who use it are good at aiming. The cost is already paid in the fact that with a full energy bar you get 2 shots! If you miss then that's the cost of using an increased damage shot. But now it has lost it's short range gun. This is the one thing the biplane had going for it which was the fact that if it got in close enough it could pump out a lot of damage. So what this all means to me is that basically the game is slowly turning away from skill based tactics. I liked the planes when they could kill another plane when each was in their unique situation that provided them the chance to strike with their strengths. But each seems to be reduced to some middle form of not being able to do too much damage and not being able to damage someone too fast. This basically means that even if you are leaps and bounds above your enemy in skill, you often times still take 50%-75% or more of your life in damage because the other player was still able to shoot you while you slowly killed him. I didn't intend to write this much and I am looking at it now and it has become a sizable rant! I am just tired of the skilled players getting penalized so that the planes they use are brought down to an equalizing level with lesser players! The balance shouldn't be designed around the gripes of Demo users! I am not sure but maybe the whole system of health and damage of all the planes needs to be reworked, but what I do know is that the current road of balance is making the game feel pretty lame. Bring back the old laser, give bomber back it's old fire rate, don't make explodet missiles affect their own planes, and give heavy cannon back it's short range gun! I even want the return of smart bombs except change the bomb firing rate to the current grenade firing rate. At least make bombs useful and not just some novelty. As far as Loopy goes, it might be FUBAR, forever reserved for the influx of demo noobs to spray and pray with. But one of my biggest gripes with the Loopy is that the missiles will track even if they are fired without a "lock." (basically if you fly within range of a string of loopy missile that were just spammed then they all turn towards you) I would support much stronger tracking of the missiles if they needed a lock prior to firing for the tracking to work with the missiles that are fired without a lock only having the ability to fly in a straight line and not track. END RANT
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#44
07-10-2009, 07:23 AM
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I think it's much better now. Before you would get randomly 1 shot and die by who knows what, now you have to think more about your energy and it takes more skill to kill people. Also the planes weren't overpowered because skilled people were using em, they were overpowered in the first place and the skilled people made it even worse by being cheap and abusing that imbalance to the max.
Even after all the Miranda nerfs it's still the only plane in the game that you can consistently have abnormally high k/d ratios. Luckily it's not of that much use in terms of teamwork (unless you're bomb running with time anchor) so it's not too bad. The hard cannon was always the preferred choice in any serious game and it clearly has much more going for it than recoiless though of course there are plenty of good recoiless players out there but it's definitely not the optimal choice. Bomber was never really used by many good players, from what I've seen Shyney still does very well with it and I'm sure so will any good player if they actually choose to play with it. Explodet is the laziest plane out there, you get tons of kills for barely doing anything and thermabolics obviously deserved a nerf, I think most would agree. Personally though, I've played some games competitively and yea if you want to be on top you have to use every edge possiblle (be it imbalances, video settings, controls or w/e) cause others will so I don't blame the skilled players choosing to play the planes/setups they do. But at the same time we're lucky to have developpers who listen to the community and try to make this as much of a balanced game as possible and I'm all for it! Last edited by NomNom; 07-10-2009 at 07:41 AM.
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#45
07-10-2009, 07:55 AM
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Hey guys, I don't know if it's possible (well, i guess everything is possible), but it would be really awesome to have an alternate version of Altitude for those who have bought the game, with all the old stuff in it.
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#46
07-10-2009, 08:29 AM
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[ there is going to be alot of whining , even for mirandas... why degrade planes?... kinda paid for the originial planes not pay for degraded planes, whats the point of paying if its like that?]
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#47
07-10-2009, 08:32 AM
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but since changing secondary it caused the shooting to be less than a huge burst of HC and SC together... making it impossible to kill in a one shot ... the advantage for others is greater like that..
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#49
07-10-2009, 08:47 AM
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I'll write up a longer piece after I've had more time to play with the new toys but the new gametypes are awesome. Really good stuff to be able to have that sort of variety in the game. Obviously still kinks to be worked out but it's real good stuff.
As for the heavy cannon changes can't say it really affects me much as a reverse thruster. I like that the range has been reduced down to a more manageable level and honestly I've been using far less secondary as of late. Against lightly armored loopies and mirandas it was better just to fire two heavy shots than double fire unless you had ultracap. The new patch just enforces this and makes ultra cap slightly worse for it (and reverse thrust better in comparison!) Further, the lack of recoil for the secondary fire makes reverse thrust better in comparison. And then there's there's the beautiful, beautiful EMP change making reverse thrust look even better. All in all my reverse thrust biplane is looking about the same while other heavy cannon biplanes suffer a good deal. My secondary biplane setup is going to switch from heavy armor/heavy cannon to recoilless and flexi because I can't imagine playing heavy cannon without secondary recoil to get out of tough spots. Morale of the story: Reverse Thrust is better. And it's a wonderful thing when fun options are made more viable. On that note, I would halt biplane and miranda nerfs around nowish. I feel that part of the reason so many pros go to them is that they are the two "precision" planes. They let you feel more in control of exactly what is going on, make you feel like your skill is a necessary component. I'm of the opinion that explodet is probably the best overall plane but not many pros play it, almost none play loopy and a pro bomber is the white whale of altitude. They need a precision red perk option. Not like they can't spare the red perk slot. I think the addition of a "precision" option of some kind would go a long way towards pro appeal, even if it's slightly worse in the abstract than the other options available. Something to think about. A cannonball for bomber instead of a nade with less range and no splash. Double missles for loopy which have no tracking but meet each other a certain distance from the plane before going different directions. An explodet option with smaller splash and considerable less knockback but able to chain remote mines (hold button down to let out multiples) and/or fire dumbfire missles. Give every plane at least one "accuracy required" perk and we'll see more pro variety. Those are just examples off the top of my head but really anything will do that requires more accuracy if it has some minor benefits. Again, it doesn't even need to be better than the existing options. That's enough rambling from me. But yah: Good patch.
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#50
07-10-2009, 09:17 AM
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New patch:
Fixed a few bugs Adjusted objective game mode: - stats are now persisted over the entire round - bomb indicator is always shown for attackers unless it hasn't been picked up or it has been planted - games left in current round is visible in the top-left HUD - players alive on each team is visible in the top-right HUD - round XP bonus is doubled - planes drop health packs worth 60% of normal health packs (20% heal) - repair drone heals at 60% of normal rate - reduced plant-bomb time from 3 seconds to 2 seconds (defuse still takes 3 seconds) "Heavy Cannon" - increased recoil by 10% "Heavy Cannon" - secondary changed back to dogfighter machine gun (but deals 30% less damage) Do you like this "accentuated recoil" version of Heavy Cannon better than the "sniper/pistol" version from last patch?
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#51
07-10-2009, 12:25 PM
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I think that, as a dogfighter player who often scraps with HC biplanes, it will be more fun to fight them with this accentuated recoil. However, maybe the pros will actually want a sniper biplane. We'll see. And, as a reverse thruster, I now think you are AWESOME.
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#52
07-10-2009, 12:56 PM
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The miranda bounce reduction was fine as it breaks the "enemy plane is in a tunnel, time to fire and forget it because this is a sure hit."
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#53
07-10-2009, 12:59 PM
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#54
07-10-2009, 03:01 PM
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#56
07-10-2009, 03:43 PM
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Hey lam, I just played around with the new HC secondary and I like it better than the one we had before sniper/pistol. I was just wondering, did you increase the range of the secondary any? It seems like it shoots a little farther now, and with a little more focus than it used to.
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#57
07-10-2009, 03:49 PM
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You guys must have never left the building between patches.To make dogfighter balance, what about increasing the primary's bullet speed? That would increase its long-range deadliness but have little or no impact on short-range deadliness.
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#59
07-10-2009, 05:59 PM
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just want to say that I VERY VERY strongly disagree with pretty much everything maimer said in his rant. virtually all the changes he's complaining about made the game more skill-based imo, and many of them really had nothing to do with this stuff, they were just nerfs on overpowered planes. if anything, I'd want to push the planes more in the direction that loopy is in, with less instakills overall.
I also think the people whining about the new (now old?  ) HC are being silly, but I expected that and it may have been the right decision to change it back just to appease their craziness.
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#60
07-10-2009, 06:42 PM
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I really like where the Miranda is now. I think the laser has finally been made effective, but not TOO effective. The only change I would make is to give the plane a bit more climbing ability but that's another can of worms.
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#61
07-10-2009, 06:53 PM
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I disagree, obviously people capable of instakilling someone are well experienced guys that have reached a certain skill level with that plane.
As a reward they are able to kill very quickly someone if they made a mistake (you have to know your ennemy : if you know that guy can instakill you in a certain situation, make sure to never be in that situation). When i'm playing against very good players I always try to not get too close to them in a way i don't want to, because I know they wont hesitate and just kill me right there, which is really cool because it creates a micro-hide'n'seek situation, if you know what I mean. I would be lame to remove this aspect of the game.
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#63
07-10-2009, 07:30 PM
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I think a good example is Quake. When people started getting really good at the railgun they were hitting at higher than 80% accuracy to which an underskilled or newer player would think that it is way overpowered. Your idea, Dio, would be to ignore the ability of the players and assume it needs to be nerfed regardless of the players using it, based on what you are saying you would want to nerf the damage to let's say 10 dmg per rail rather than 100 dmg per rail. But to me that is just ineffective balance by trying to bring all the weapons in a game to some middle of the road level. So that there is no ability to really dominate. That to me is just mediocre, unexciting gameplay. How do you plan on attracting good and competent players when you can't even offer then a gaming environment where they feel like they have control of certain aspects of game play? After thinking about it I would like to see an overall increase in instakills. Make the price of missing high, and the reward of hitting high as well. Dio, maybe we can make a version of the game where all 5 planes shoot Loopy missiles and you can play it and tell me how much skill based it was for you.
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#64
07-10-2009, 07:45 PM
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Change Heavy Cannon so that choosing it removes your wings, tail, cockpit, fuselage, and anything else that isn't the Heavy Cannon, you riding it, and two little wheels on either side.
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#65
07-10-2009, 07:58 PM
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#66
07-10-2009, 08:12 PM
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Actually I do listen to his balance suggestions; he's played the game a ton, understands it well, and I respect his viewpoint. That said, I disagree with moving the game towards insta-kills, though I might add an experimental server option (like CoD4 hardcore mode) if there are ever enough people that want it. Regarding the balance complaints above, I believe that most of those changes have either moved the game towards higher skill, or towards better balance without significant damage to unique differences. Better balance (without watering down core concepts) leads to more options, battlefield variety, and tactical interactions for all players; overpowered configs force everyone to play the same few broken loadouts.
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#67
07-10-2009, 08:27 PM
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Maimer, I can understand why someone might enjoy the game more with faster kills, but you really are mistaken if you think it increases the skill needed to do well. I mean, there's no way for either side to prove their point, but what I CAN say is that I've played a version of the game (the old Alt) where the hp:dmg ratios were a little higher, and it absolutely was just as skill-based or more than the current version. you'll just have to take my word for it. uh, and the word of everyone else that played it back in the day, since we're all basically on the same page.
and bringing in other competitive games doesn't prove anything since the dynamics are so different from game to game. as a silly example, I could say, "omg would you want to play street fighter if every punch killed someone in one hit?!?" it's not a proper comparison, and the quake comment is just as irrelevant.
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#68
07-10-2009, 08:30 PM
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You know, I think we need to relax a little bit and just play the game. Every time a patch has come out lately, the forums have gone ape **** with people talking about how much they hate this or that. The sniper/pistol HC wasn't even out 24 hours before lamster had to change it because people were griping so much. Many of the people who complain about stuff that's just come out are the same ones who tell other players that they need to give a new plane time, so they can develop a strategy for using it, not just play around with it a little bit, get frustrated, and throw it out. You might want to follow your own advice. Give new things time, develop strategies for them. If you still can't get results after that, then start the ranting
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#69
07-10-2009, 08:46 PM
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For you youngsters out there, the entire ship was a large cannon whose only means of propulsion was from the recoil you got from firing. As I recall, in order to gain more energy to shoot, you had to sacrifice a crew member into the furnace. lamster, if you could get working on a Star Control version of Altitude, that would be super awesome. I await the next patch. Thanks.
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#70
07-10-2009, 09:38 PM
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trivia: this game was pretty heavily influenced by starcon2.
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#71
07-10-2009, 09:49 PM
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Maybe an alternative business model could be to go after Frungy endorsements. I hear the developers of sc2 made millions.
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#72
07-10-2009, 10:09 PM
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what's really sad is that they just make ****ty licensed games now. from the makers of star control: 102 Dalmatians!
 btw, more feedback: - TDM really needs something that forces an endgame, it gets pretty lame flying around chasing the last guy sometimes - showing allied powerups is nice! - most helpful is a nice addition, but I liked the old Most Robbed better. there was something more fun about that. - I wish my stats on the awards screen would stick around after the first second, it's annoying if you miss them and then can't see how close you came
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#73
07-11-2009, 12:06 AM
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#74
07-11-2009, 12:26 AM
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Team deathmatch. Oh man. This is so much fun I can't believe it's only just been implemented.
I like dead people being able to talk because they can help you find that last hiding guy so that games don't get boring at the end. More teamwork, even from ghosts, is always welcome. I think I prefer the old-new HC to the new-new HC. Not for killing people, but for the game. What if secondary were a small bullet with the same range as the HC, but faster and pretty weak, mostly good for testing your aim but also good for getting in a few last shots during HC cooldown? Also, Lamster is the best. I mean holy **** that was a fast patch.
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#76
07-11-2009, 04:02 AM
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i pretty much agree with everything maimer has said, except the claim that miranda was not OP before the nerfs.
bip instas are NOT just "holding s" as blank oh so ****ing blithely suggests. it may feel like that to him because he's been playing bip since before i hit puberty, but dealing heavy damage with bip is a seriously complex set of actions that starts several seconds before a dogfight with good positioning and speed and involves accounting for angles, recoil (if pertinent), timing, and serious throttle manipulation. i've been playing the beta since before perks (or even powerups) were implemented and i still haven't mastered it. of course maimer's getting annoyed, he's put in the time and effort to get really good, only to have to watch his finely honed skills get mistaken for OP planes.
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#77
07-11-2009, 05:16 AM
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I think in general my problems with the balance have been slightly misunderstood. My basic idea of what I think should be the basic premise of the game is: if you convert all of your entire energy supply (when it's full) into damage output and all of that output hits a specific plane, then that plane should die (with exception to maybe explodet w/ heavy armor). So for example: if a biplane manages to gain an advantage on another plane by being directly on top of it AND it has a full energy bar, then in my mind that should equal an instant kill (assuming all the shots hit). Once this premise is violated then I think the game has become too soft, too forgiving to new players, and generally not geared towards maintaining any type of long term serious player base. This idea translates to all planes (mostly). If a loopy shoots its entire energy bar in the form of missiles and all the missiles hit one plane, that plane should die! If a Miranda directs a laser for its entire duration on a plane, that plane should die! If a bomber shoots you in the face with a barrage of grenades then you should die! The exception is the explodet because it cannot quickly dispense it's energy, but that it made up for in the fact that if you shoot a smart enough shot, the enemy plane hits a wall, and that plane should die!
I think you get the idea. It's not about pushing the game towards everything being an instant kill, it's about letting players use the things that are in their control to a maximum advantage. If I am playing Miranda and I get an entire laser shot on a plane and it doesn't even die but rather just shoots me in the face then what was the point?! This game quickly evolves (once you learn how to fly and not hit walls) into a game of tactics, positioning, learning flight patterns of other players, the flow of battle and then using those things to best position yourself to strike. If striking then means that I can't even kill a plane with an entire energy bar then what did it really do for me except put me in a compromising position? In all seriousness Dio I would actually like to hear why exactly you think that makes the game more skill based? Because as far as I can tell if you use all your skill to maximize an advantage and receive a small rewards for it (a damaged enemy plane) then I don't see where the skill is really increased. But if you cannot agree with the idea that a plane should die (roughly instantly) if I put any of the planes in a position of maximum advantage and then convert an entire energy bar into damage then you and I are never going to agree. To me that is the backbone of how this game should be balanced and anything less creates a less than desirable game to play.
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#78
07-11-2009, 06:05 AM
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Well honestly you're slightly exaggerating, it's really not that bad now. You can still get kills easily in one run, you just get punished the more you miss which imo is where the increase in skill comes in.
The problem before is that there were several planes/setups that allowed you to kill too fast by just spamming without much punishment. Any new player could take those planes and after a day of practice do much better than they should simply because of how overpowered they were. I think now there's a much higher requirement in terms of proper positionining, accuracy, picking your spots, using your energy to its max effectiveness and making the best use of your powerups. You can't just run around like Rambo with the laser miranda killing everything in sight anymore or endlessly spamming bombs across the map at every choke without much thought and I think that's a good thing. Of course even those things required some skill and definitely the skilled players did it much better than newbies but at the same time it was still highly overpowered. I think you need to give this some time and maybe you'll appreciate the changes more. I'm not a big fan of changes either, I like consistency and it's not that fun to get used to something new when you already got so used to the old. But at the same time I think this is the right path for the game, better balance, less randomness = better competition. Last edited by NomNom; 07-11-2009 at 07:23 AM.
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#79
07-11-2009, 06:10 AM
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I don't know where this "thermo shouldn't have a self effect because explodet never had a self effect" idiocy came from because director has always and forever since every version of the game ever had an effect on the explodet, as has flying through your own mines. The explodet is a long range plane, its the only plane with weapons that can travel the entire distance of the map, and it has a radius around the point of detonation. To say that this should be usable in a melee fight with absolutely no repercussions is just ****ing crazy.
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#80
07-11-2009, 10:04 AM
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But really, that's not the REASON I like slightly higher hp. The reason is just because drawn out dogfights are freaking fun. Obviously this is just opinion, but I've played it both ways and I slightly prefer the slower deaths. I don't think it's so weird that you disagree, but yeesh, you haven't even tried it the other way. have an open mind! oh, and really I think we're talking about very very small differences in how fast stuff dies. I mean, biplanes could wreck **** by holding f/d even in the original game, I just think it took your whole bar instead of only like 2/3 or something. actually, what baffles me the most is that you think the altitude of 6 months ago took more skill than the one now. what are the big changes? bomber and miranda nerfs, basically. and come on, you have to admit that both those planes were crazytown. it's not like you were the only one owning **** up with them, every decent player could go in and rock people. and the bomber actually moved from being a plane where noobs used to be able to do much better with it than any other plane to a situation where new players actually seem to prefer loopy now because they can't master the bomber. and yet you can still get near-instant kills with it if you aim properly. that seems like a pretty ideal direction for it to move in to me.
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