Patch: july 15th, game mode cleanup, bug fixes, and a few balance tweaks

[Snowsickle]

I'm not really sure where all of the miranda hate is coming from; it seems to me to have probably the highest skill ceiling in the game and is, in my opinion, pretty much the best plane for deathmatch/objective play. Reverse is a great tool for making bomb runs in tbd and while it doesn't rack up kills the fastest, it contends quite well.

I would like to see bars in deathmatch awarded based on performance in the previous round. For every kill you gain during a round, you should start the next with a corresponding number of bars, whether you die or not. It removes the incentive for players to hide in a corner to preserve their bars and allows the losing team to gain a few bars so long as they don't get completely swept. For example, if I kill 3 people and then die, I start the next round with 3 bars (or maybe 6/9 so we see more than just copper bars).

And yeah, multiplayer games change constantly. If people are buying the game just because some plane (heavy cannon, laser miranda, whatever) appears overpowered, they're buying it for the complete wrong reasons. Typically you spend money because you find a game fun, not because you want access to an imbalanced setup. I know Lamster's development goals include a balanced game, not one where paying offers a distinct advantage.

[DiogenesDog]

Originally Posted by Blank

Ever play TF2? Starcraft? DotA? Any MMO ever?

Changes happen in PC multiplayer games all the time. Only those that aren't well supported or bogged down by a console version don't see the same level of support.

This.

but hey, you know what else always happens in those games? retards complaining because their BS imba class got nerfed.

seriously, folks. the game would suck if overpowered planes weren't nerfed. I know it's frustrating when something you enjoy is made less powerful, but at least try to understand that it makes the game more fun overall when all the planes are actually equally good and have a distinct role/playstyle.

[chief]

How can anyone have a problem with how the miranda is? Even with the nerfs it is still ridiculously easy to get most kills.

Miranda's still useless as ever as a bomb carrier but none of the changes ever made a difference to that.

[Stormich]

I think people forget that not every plane is designed to be able to do everything, loopy is really powerful but low HP plane (which is OP now IMO), bomber is a more defensive oriented/map control plane, explo is a map control plane, biplane is all-round and miranda is a defensive plane with really low hp but very powerful if used correctly. At least thats how I see it. And yeah, Loopy is really getting to strong, I understand that noobs die a lot using it, but people who know how to play abuse its strong points, giving it more HP was a mistake.

[chief]

I like the idea of loopy having more health but I think that should be countered the missiles being less good at tracking.

[eth]

It's good to see doublefire get some love, but I agree this mightve been a bit too much :P Doublefire+heavyarmor is a _really_ strong setup(I almost feel like Im playing biplane). I think the dps of doublefire is the main problem though, since if you play loopy you're pretty much forced into heavy armor as it is, and the hp buff was (obviously) very welcome.

[DiogenesDog]

more feedback:

* I think a notification for when a friend changes their name would be cool.

* would be nice if chase camera showed health/mana/throttle bars

* Would be cool if Kill streak in DM / Obj kept track of multiple-round streaks

* Most Helpful award is missing from TBD

* Obj time limit should probably be increased a little. Not too much tho... I actually like that there's extreme time pressure, but it's just a little too nuts right now. Esp if the standard Obj map ends up being a little larger than the current ones, which I think would be ideal.

* ok I lied, recoilless nerf is noticable. really stood out when I tried dogfighter, which seems noticably stronger now. maybe differentiate them with range instead of damage/energy usage? dunno. going to be tough!

* I think the warmup time for obj/tdm should be increased by ~2 sec.

* I think it'd be cool if there was a grace period early in obj/tdm where new players could spawn in the game even if they weren't ready at the beginning. Like just the first ~5 sec or something.

* feature request: ability to rename / add nickname to friends. this is something that trillian has that's pretty nice. so you don't have to remember the bull**** name of the day that your friend keeps switching to.

* Would be nice if I could mouseover the friend icon in the server list to see who's on there. Instead I have to go to my friends list and mouseover the little plane. Bah!

* Reminder of an old request a couple ppl have asked for: ability to click on something to see who's in a server.

* Would be nice to see some tweaks to the time warp effect so it's more clear that it's not just lag

* tiny bug: mouseover on lvl60 xp bar gives a weird result (I think it's the amount of xp you've accumulated since hitting 60)

[tyr]

Loopy is too strong.
I mean, even an explodet doesnt resist to a double fire loopy spamming from half the map away, missing completely and the missiles still comming to kill you. I second Maimer saying that a loopy should get a lock on his target before the missiles could track it. I really feel loopy is way too strong now.
It was already very strong before and its even stronger now ...

[lamster]

I agree that double fire is too strong -- it will be nerfed in the next patch.

It's already the case that Loopy's missiles track if and only if Loopy has a lock. If Loopy is not pointing directly at an enemy (causing a red reticle to appear on Loopy's screen) then none of his missiles will do anything other than fly straight. Whenever Loopy has a lock (by pointing directly at the enemy) all of his missiles will turn towards the locked target. This locking mechanism requires maximal target commitment -- fire/forget locking (lock at start) requires way less target commitment. Forcing Loopy to lock before firing and then maintain the lock would make his weapon one of the hardest in the game to aim and destroy non-Double-Fire Loopy's only burst capability. My only concern with his tracking (tracker/acid forms) is that the turning rate is so high that you can spam a few shots, pick a target at the last second, then lock onto that target and any missiles that are mid-air and capable of making the turn will hit. I agree that this can feel lame to run into, but it's by far the most skill-intensive "spam" tactic out there, leaves the Loopy depleted of weapons/afterburn power, and is Loopy's only (and quite unique) burst capability.

Double fire missiles already have massively reduced turning rate and the weapon splits when fired; it is incredibly unlikely that someone could "spam missiles from half the map away" and then acquire a lock at the last second to whip them all into a target.

[Blank]

I'm not seeing this double-shot being overpowered... at least, not yet. It's obviously reached a point where it basically replaces tracker, but it's not like tracker was SUPER AWESOME.

The thing seems just as worthless as ever from long range (unless you actually get lock... whatever Maimer and Tyr are seeing is NOT what I've been experiencing)... and may be a little too easy at close range, but you're always going to run into that problem when you combine it with EMP.

I hope you give it more time before it's nerfed/buffed/re-arranged.

[Carbon]

Originally Posted by DiogenesDog

more feedback:

* I think a notification for when a friend changes their name would be cool.

* would be nice if chase camera showed health/mana/throttle bars

* Would be cool if Kill streak in DM / Obj kept track of multiple-round streaks

* Most Helpful award is missing from TBD

Agreeing with these suggestions. For the name thing I would rather be able to see a list of previous aliases instead of seeing an update every time someone changed names, which for me would be about every 5 minutes considering how many friends I have in my list.

Steam does a good job of this, you can right click anyone in your friends tab and there is a "View Aliases" option that shows you what names they have used in the past, so you can keep up to date with who everyone is even after they change their name/avatar. Here's a screenshot of it

Originally Posted by tyr

Loopy is too strong.
I mean, even an explodet doesnt resist to a double fire loopy spamming from half the map away, missing completely and the missiles still comming to kill you.

A non-armor, tracking loopy can run into 2 explodet mines and still survive, so I've been dying to demo loopys when they just hold down fire and fly straight towards me, even when not from off screen. Even if I drop 2 mines directly in their face, unless they hit a wall or I turn a corner their missiles will still hit me and kill me before I can drop a third mine.

I'm not really sure if that was a balance complaint, but it seems to happen to me several times per game, so maybe I just need to avoid places where I can't immediately turn a corner.

[mikesol]

Golden Bough -

I'm not sure I agree with your sentiments regarding the Miranda. While I do agree that the double shot loopies can be op in some instances I have seen plenty of miranda players who can wipe the walls against virtually any opponent.

I still see those miranda bomb runners who teleport back and forth with amazing speed and coordination.

Of course, I'm a demo user and I have never played the miranda. I don't know how much different it is or what is worse about it compared to the loopies. I just wanted to throw it out there that I still see plenty of experiences mirandas who wipe the walls with the double shot loopies.

[Smushface]

A non-armor, tracking loopy can run into 2 explodet mines and still survive, so I've been dying to demo loopys when they just hold down fire and fly straight towards me, even when not from off screen. Even if I drop 2 mines directly in their face, unless they hit a wall or I turn a corner their missiles will still hit me and kill me before I can drop a third mine.

I'm not really sure if that was a balance complaint, but it seems to happen to me several times per game, so maybe I just need to avoid places where I can't immediately turn a corner.

Compared to earlier when loopy would basically be killed instantly by every other plane out there? Loopy needed the buff. Double rockets is a little too strong, but listening to players complain about loopy because its closer to an equal footing to every other plane is ridiculous. Rocket spam is annoying but its a lot less annoying than other projectile spam like grenades.

edit: I'd be fine if tracking was almost completely removed from double fire if the damage was kept the same to compensate. Having to aim with loopy makes it more fun.

[Vania]

Lamster said:

It's already the case that Loopy's missiles track if and only if Loopy has a lock. If Loopy is not pointing directly at an enemy (causing a red reticle to appear on Loopy's screen) then none of his missiles will do anything other than fly straight. Whenever Loopy has a lock (by pointing directly at the enemy) all of his missiles will turn towards the locked target. This locking mechanism requires maximal target commitment -- fire/forget locking (lock at start) requires way less target commitment.

Lock and forget seems like a better solution for me.

Getting hit by loopies that arent even on the screen and appear at the last moment would be impossible this way, since the loopy would need to have the target in sight before firing. IMO the less spam the better.

And there's a benefit for the loopy too: This would make loopy a better hit & run plane, increasing it's chances of survival, which is what people complain about.

Everybody wins.

[hurripilot]

Nice Vania

[protest boy]

Originally Posted by lamster

================================================== ===============
July 15th, 2009

I'm also considering replacing the twist effect on thermobarics with significantly increased damage. I feel like director and thermobarics are too similar now: each is designed around manipulating the motion of your enemies, each is used in almost exactly the same way, and, on balance, the thermobaric effect is usually superior to knockback and is more annoying and less intuitive for targeted players to counter. Replacing the twist with +damage would open up a new Explodet playstyle focused on dealing damage rather than disrupting motion. Thoughts?

lamster, why must you tease us? This was 4 months ago! I've never heard anybody speak out in support of twisting thermobarics.

For a while it's been less of a nusiance because there's been a strong push towards remote mine. But just yesterday I was playing against 3 thermo explodets and I had completely forgotten how awful that makes the game.

You really really need to ditch the twisty thermobarics. Put back in the shrapnel missiles with chenjesu effects! Or at least the 'stall thermo'.

[nesnl]

Originally Posted by protest boy

lamster, why must you tease us? This was 4 months ago! I've never heard anybody speak out in support of twisting thermobarics.

For a while it's been less of a nusiance because there's been a strong push towards remote mine. But just yesterday I was playing against 3 thermo explodets and I had completely forgotten how awful that makes the game.

You really really need to ditch the twisty thermobarics. Put back in the shrapnel missiles with chenjesu effects! Or at least the 'stall thermo'.

It's because everyone figured out how overpowered remote mine is currently, so as a result most players, probably greater than 90%, play remote mine. I personally don't mind thermo that much. I have learned to play it and therefore have learned to play against it.

Also, the shrapnel rocket, which is just a high powered, less knockback rocket is just boring. Something better needs to be thought of than just "more damage."

[Evan20000]

Originally Posted by Golden Bough

The miranda is a dying breed. When I first played the demo, the miranda was exotic and mysterious—it was even fun to watch. Now, not so.

Before the last few changes took place, I am sure many other people, including myself, can recall hearing new and demo players loathing about how they wished they could play the miranda (they couldn't cause of the demo). Now...no one talks like this any more. It is no longer treasured. It stinks (sorry if I hurt the few miranda loyalists out there...). For the developers I think this should be of serious concern: it was the reason I purchased the full version—period. With these recent boosts to the loopy, I think the miranda is in bad shape.

The Miranda is still a monster. It's sniping abilities are absurd. The time you speak of was when it was horribly broken. Now it's balanced. Laser could use a slight buff, but overall it's fine.

EDIT: Whoah, that was an old post. Sorry. Delete this if you like.

[protest boy]

Originally Posted by nesnl

It's because everyone figured out how overpowered remote mine is currently, so as a result most players, probably greater than 90%, play remote mine.

Also, the shrapnel rocket, which is just a high powered, less knockback rocket is just boring. Something better needs to be thought of than just "more damage."

I agree with you on both points. The thing I LIKE about the shrapnel missile though is it gives the explodet user a different play style choice (control the other plane, or damage).

Originally Posted by nesnl

I personally don't mind thermo that much. I have learned to play it and therefore have learned to play against it.

In my mind, there is one critical differences between thermo and director.

Let's use the scenario of a bomb runner vs an explodet:

While both thermo and director have the ability to stop someone dead in their tracks, director still requires careful aim and detonation. Hit them in the wrong spot and you may actually boost them towards their goal, or you just might not have much effect at all. In contrast, detonate a thermo missile anywhere in the vicinity (above, below, behind, or in front) and you'll send them slamming into a wall. The player really has no way of countering it other than slowing to a "dead" stop before it hits.

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by nesnl

It's because everyone figured out how overpowered remote mine is currently, so as a result most players, probably greater than 90%, play remote mine. I personally don't mind thermo that much. I have learned to play it and therefore have learned to play against it.

Also, the shrapnel rocket, which is just a high powered, less knockback rocket is just boring. Something better needs to be thought of than just "more damage."

Thats just simply not true, 50% maybe. The overpowerdness of things like trickster/anchor/remote is all overhyped imho, the devs should be focusing on real issues like how useless dumbbombs/thermo are.

[nobodyhome]

Originally Posted by Kuja900

The overpowerdness of things like trickster/anchor/remote is all overhyped imho, the devs should be focusing on real issues like how useless dumbbombs/thermo are.

Agreed. If the goal in balance patches is to be to increase the variety of plane/perk setups being used, then the slight overpoweredness of remote/trickster/anchor is overemphasized. Sure, these planes are slightly better than others, but they aren't so much that people eschew using other planes just because these are too good.

The more important issue is to raise the viability of the more useless perks. That is to say, dumb bombs, dogfighter, and director, and to a lesser extent, thermo and laser.

[DiogenesDog]

Btw, just want to say once again that I'm all for trying out chenjesu style shrapnel. For people who didn't play Star Control I/II (HERETICS), it's basically just that on detonation it'd send out additional damaging projectiles in preset directions, like an asterisk: *

this isn't super interesting to use the way the normal explodet missile is, but I could see it being pretty cool in the following situations:

- On bouncy servers, the extra damage is an obvious win

- On wide open maps, it's also nice

- If the shrapnel travels far, it might be a way to "shoot around corners"

- In close quarters fights, you can use it to hurt flanking enemies

- it'd place an extremely high premium on dead-center detonations, which would be a unique skill to hone in the game

[eth]

Just gotta say it's pretty much impossible to get a dead-center hit on an aware enemy, as there is more than enough time to spot missile+move a bit out of the way. Also why are people complaining about laser and dogfighter? Dogfighter has a tad more damage already, but the real gem is the recoil - a biplane burst can kill anything regardless of recoil or not, and the recoil can get you out of a lot of ****. Try it out sometime instead of just assuming it's terrible. Laser.. why exactly is it a lesser perk? A laser+warp can take out explodets EXTREMELY fast, and any other plane for that matter. If you're having problems with the hitscan, that's your fault, not the perk. Hit better and you will see the damage is more than enough already.

[Stormich]

As a fan of thermo I don't agree with scrapping it, people used to play thermo all the time before remote imbalance was found out. Thermo is a really nice perk and it's hard to master (try shooting point blank). I don't see any of these high power missiles working except if you make it shoot >120. I still think thermo should be left alone or maybe some changes made to it cause once the remote mine is nerfed people will flock back to it.

[nobodyhome]

More on ideas for explodet: someone once brought up an idea here that instead of mines, explodet can lay down trip wires. The things you lay down will be pivots, and strings will be connected between the lines in the order you placed them. If enemy planes fly through the wires, they get stalled.

I think this idea was definitely unique, and it definitely falls in the style of altitude (if there's such thing as globs of acid in the air, insta-reversing alien laser ships, floating EMP walls, and regular mines that follow you around, why not trip wires?).

[AtomikPi]

Originally Posted by Stormich

As a fan of thermo I don't agree with scrapping it, people used to play thermo all the time before remote imbalance was found out. Thermo is a really nice perk and it's hard to master (try shooting point blank). I don't see any of these high power missiles working except if you make it shoot >120. I still think thermo should be left alone or maybe some changes made to it cause once the remote mine is nerfed people will flock back to it.

I think part of the reason for the move from thermo to remote (for those of you who remember, back in beta the majority of explos used thermo) is that the new thermo (twist) is not as effective as the old (stall) and is also less powerful (used to have a 10% damage boost). In addition to those nerfs, thermo also got nerfed to effect the launcher. Let's not forget that at that time remote was actually buffed because it couldn't compete with thermo.

At least for me, with the mounting nerfs on thermo, I had to find something else, and since remote was a more potent and skill-centric perk compared to director, I started using it.

My suggestion is bring back the old thermo (without the damage buff), and see how that works out.

[[FN]MONXY FIST]

Originally Posted by Kuja900

Thats just simply not true, 50% maybe. The overpowerdness of things like trickster/anchor/remote is all overhyped imho, the devs should be focusing on real issues like how useless dumbbombs/thermo are.

Hi my name is kuja and i like to make up stats.

After looking through the top 5 planes list there was 17 explodets who put on peoples list, only 3 of them were primarily thermo users ( Maimer, Uberknarf, Texas). The comes to 83% for remote users and 17% for thermo. Now this list includes only a small portion of the playerbase. However i think you must balance a game based on the best players, since they are the players who abuse any imbalances, set the new trends, etc. As you can see a SIGNIFICANT amount of the best explodet users prefer remote over thermo. Im sorry but thermo is not underpowered, its just not as powerful as remote. You want thermo to be used more? Well you could either buff thermo, or nerf remote. In order to buff thermo it would have to be underpowered, a good thermo user can do very well with thermo as players such as Maimer and Texas have shown. If you do not consider thermo underpowered, then the only option outside of changing thermo completely would be to nerf remote.

[Evan20000]

Originally Posted by Kuja900

Thats just simply not true, 50% maybe. The overpowerdness of things like trickster/anchor/remote is all overhyped imho, the devs should be focusing on real issues like how useless dumbbombs/thermo are.

And where are these statistics coming from? If it's from the "Top 5 players" thread, then remember that that thread is guided by personal opinions.

[nesnl]

Originally Posted by Evan20000

And where are these statistics coming from? If it's from the "Top 5 players" thread, then remember that that thread is guided by personal opinions.

Go ahead and take a sample in game. The "top 5 players list" merely mentions players names. And of those players 83% play remote mine. Go ahead and take your own sample, but it's going to heavily bias remote mine. It is overpowered and needs to be fixed.

[Ferret]

Originally Posted by [FN]MONXY FIST

After looking through the top 5 planes list...

That's probably worse than just pulling **** out of your ass.



Never liked this iteration of thermo. Shrapnel was never tried with a player base this large, maybe in a 7v7 it'll have an actual variability on play style as opposed to when we were stuck testing it in 3v3s.

Miranda spamability is still ridiculously bad. Give the uncharged shot some kind of real cool down or else serious damage penalty for lack of charge and it would significantly reduce the effectiveness of play styles that lend to it being imbalanced.

Remote mine needs at least one thing nerfed on it; the cool down, radius, damage, or the amount of 'stall effect'. Any of those prevent the positive feedback loop of being hit by one guaranteeing that with little effort from the attacker you'll take 2 more without much you can do in most planes to counter or break out.

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by [FN]MONXY FIST

Hi my name is kuja and i like to make up stats.

After looking through the top 5 planes list there was 17 explodets who put on peoples list, only 3 of them were primarily thermo users ( Maimer, Uberknarf, Texas). The comes to 83% for remote users and 17% for thermo. Now this list includes only a small portion of the playerbase. However i think you must balance a game based on the best players, since they are the players who abuse any imbalances, set the new trends, etc. As you can see a SIGNIFICANT amount of the best explodet users prefer remote over thermo. Im sorry but thermo is not underpowered, its just not as powerful as remote. You want thermo to be used more? Well you could either buff thermo, or nerf remote. In order to buff thermo it would have to be underpowered, a good thermo user can do very well with thermo as players such as Maimer and Texas have shown. If you do not consider thermo underpowered, then the only option outside of changing thermo completely would be to nerf remote.

Ok I was referring to all explodets not the "best" as you put it. Why should a circle jerk thread in the water cooler have any implications on balance?

[DiogenesDog]

the only thing that I think is OP about remote mine is the frickin ejection distance. it's like having a backwards-facing gun practically. if it didn't eject, director would probably be better imo.

[Evan20000]

Originally Posted by DiogenesDog

the only thing that I think is OP about remote mine is the frickin ejection distance. it's like having a backwards-facing gun practically. if it didn't eject, director would probably be better imo.

I agree. How about increasing the time between the drop and detonation?