Balance of controls

[mssv]

Since lately there's a talk about balancing planes I think homogenizing controls is also needed in order to get a better balance.

To be honest I don't find fair that I have a line and a moving crosshair in front of my plane when other control types don't. I know it's needed in order to make it work but still, it's not fair.

1) The line and the crosshair should be set as an option for every type of control. When enabled on a full keyborad user for instance, the crosshair would move over the line exactly as on full mouse, including overextending the line (afterburning).

Another problem I see it's accuracy. A full keyboard user in order to snipe a far plane would slightly tap up or down to aim, that being like position 0 and 1. A mouse user can have the full range in between 0 and 1, like 0,33 or 0,55 etc if needed.

2) To improve it for full keyboard users set an option of "sensitivity" for keys (for turning and throttling) like in car games where you can set how sensitive you want your brakes, accelerator and steering wheel to respond.
Also include a acceleration option so if players want more accuracy at slight taps they can set it up at will, just like in driver simulators, where you can get pretty accurate with keys and set the right feeling for you.


Cheers

Edit: max turning speed it's the same for every control type, what im saying does not imply changing that in any way.
Edit: Also, would be fine if the line is an on/off option for full mouse users also.

[Appeltaart]

I've been playing with keyboard since 2009 and I think it's fine just the way it is.
Mouse players can have their dandy little crosshair, but I don't think it's necessary at all for keyboard users.

[blln4lyf]

Originally Posted by Appeltaart

I've been playing with keyboard since 2009 and I think it's fine just the way it is.
Mouse players can have their dandy little crosshair, but I don't think it's necessary at all for keyboard users.

Your entitled to your opinion but he's completely right, mouse has an unfair advantage due to the crosshairs and line. I still believe mouse is better against thermo but I would be completely okay with this change to balance the user controls. Plus it would be an option, if you don't want it leave the option off.

[ufo]

well put mssv, i completely agree

[soccernamlak]

Being a user of mouse+kb, I should take the moment to clarify that only full mouse users have the crosshair (for aiming) and line (for throttle control).

If you use mouse for turning only, then you lose the line, but still retain the crosshairs.

Regarding sensitivity, not sure on the key pushing end, but if I heard mikesol last night correctly, keyboard and mouse have the same turning time and positions available. In other words, a mouse user won't change direction any faster.

[DICK van DYKE]

I don't see point 2 as an issue; tapping your keys in any direction does actually result in very small movements. A sensitivity setting wouldn't really work either because the way turning works is that as long as left or right are being pressed (or your cursor is to the right or left of where the plane is facing) then the plane starts using it's full turn speed in that direction, so you couldn't make a plane more responsive without giving him free flexi wings. I guess you could make a plane less responsive by adding some sort of input delay or making turn speed ramp up the longer you have a key pressed but those would both **** you over in the long run.

Also, imo the straight thermo effect reduction for pure mouse is a bad solution to the problem because it's either going to help too much or not at all. It should also be noted that dealing with thermo is just harder as pure mouse, not impossible. You shouldn't balance the controls by changing the way the fundamental game works. Might as well add Kinect controls and give them auto-aim because of how retarded it would be to use it.

[blln4lyf]

Originally Posted by soccernamlak

Being a user of mouse+kb, I should take the moment to clarify that only full mouse users have the crosshair (for aiming) and line (for throttle control).

If you use mouse for turning only, then you lose the line, but still retain the crosshairs.

Regarding sensitivity, not sure on the key pushing end, but if I heard mikesol last night correctly, keyboard and mouse have the same turning time and positions available. In other words, a mouse user won't change direction any faster.

The line was taken away from kb&mouse to try to balance the advantages the line & crosshair give you but it didn't. kb&mouse can get the line option back as well to make the controls balanced throughout regarding the line and crosshair. As it stands the KB is at a disadvantage for not having these.

Give all controls the line&crosshair options and go from there. I believe the sensitivity control isn't needed and the thermo issue has to be tested before implemented in my opinion. A test server would be lovely..

[DICK van DYKE]

What about instead of giving everyone a line we took it away completely and gave pure mouse a cone or circle instead. Something like this:
http://i.imgur.com/uom7YS4.png

[mssv]

that could also work but the thing is so everyone have the same stuff so no one have the edge.

[blln4lyf]

The crosshair would have to be removed as well. The crosshair essentially provides more aiming abilities than the line does. These discussions have been had in the past and the outcome was ineffective. I think giving everyone a line/ extended out crosshair is an easier fix.

I suggest you give this thread a read, mattman outlined the issues at the time and a lot of the existing ones.

http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5577

[DICK van DYKE]

Right, but the line shouldn't be there at all if it doesn't have to. A cone, or even a circle around the plane, could still serve as a reference for your throttle, which is the intended purpose of the line anyway.
Then if we slap a crosshair at some fixed distance from the plane for kb users we would all be working with basically the same on-screen information.

[blln4lyf]

Originally Posted by DICK van DYKE

Right, but the line shouldn't be there at all if it doesn't have to. A cone, or even a circle around the plane, could still serve as a reference for your throttle, which is the intended purpose of the line anyway.
Then if we slap a crosshair at some fixed distance from the plane for kb users we would all be working with basically the same on-screen information.

They still have the ability to move it all over the the screen..if you had an option of how far you wanted to set it, it would be more balanced at least but I think if you make a change you should truly balance it.

[classicallad]

whatever happens with regard dev attention to this id strongly advise also putting an option to remove any of that stuff too, i personally wouldnt want it.

[Aki1024]

Dropping the cross hair would mean flying blind.

[mssv]

Originally Posted by blln4lyf

They still have the ability to move it all over the the screen..if you had an option of how far you wanted to set it, it would be more balanced at least but I think if you make a change you should truly balance it.

The crosshair can't disappear otherwise we cannot play as full mouse.
Also, "When enabled on a full keyborad user for instance, the crosshair would move over the line exactly as on full mouse, including overextending the line "
And the overextending is meant for balance.

[DICK van DYKE]

Originally Posted by blln4lyf

They still have the ability to move it all over the the screen..if you had an option of how far you wanted to set it, it would be more balanced at least but I think if you make a change you should truly balance it.

Complete balance is not possible with any suggestion put forth so far without making the game too dumbed down or boring to play. For example, having a line drawn from where the plane is facing to the end of the screen would make aiming completely fair, but retardedly easy.

If kb gets a crosshair at some distance from the plane you'll still have a disadvantage on stabilized shots at long ranges, sure. (It is now a slighter disadvantage though) But since your crosshair would be following your plane's orientation perfectly, kb would actually get the advantage when shooting while turning.
For those that haven't played mouse much, a lot of your shots are actually made while turning to somewhere else and in those instances your crosshair is not used as a reference for your shot, you're not even looking at it, as it's strictly for flying.

What do you think about adding the fixed crosshair for kb and restricting the mouse cursor so it can't move further away from the plane than the kb crosshair? This would actually nerf the kb/mouse hybrid a bit as it'd make controlling the plane a bit harder and take some getting used to but at least the long range shot advantage would be gone.

[blln4lyf]

I didnt suggest removing the crosshair by the way as I know it would be hard to balance without. My point was that if you were to balance the controls by removing the line you wouldn't actually be balancing it as the crosshair provides more aim than the line ever will. Therefore you'd need to remove the crosshair which becomes very tricky, making it easier to fix by giving keyboard a line&crosshair than finding a whole new way for mouse to operate. I did suggest we come up with a better balancing idea than a crosshair for the keyboard user at a fixed location.

PS mattman did suggest a cursor less mouse would work so maybe fixing the cursor length on the mouse to the full length of the line would work. That way you could fix a crosshair on the end of the line and have it adjust with throttle for both mouse and keyboard, and then the user controls would actually be balanced in regards to aiming. If you tried to push the crosshair beyond the end of the line it would simply not extend further out but it would be responsive to movement up and down and pulling it in to control throttle.

In response to mssv's point, the crosshair would go slightly past the line when after burning on all user controls, KB, KB&mouse, and mouse.

[blln4lyf]

Originally Posted by DICK van DYKE

What do you think about adding the fixed crosshair for kb and restricting the mouse cursor so it can't move further away from the plane than the kb crosshair?

This is very Simular to what I suggested and agree an action like this would be the best fix. I'm behind this.

[Ribilla]

Cursorless mouse would be impossible to play.

I think the nicest 'fixes' that' I've heard are converting the line to a cone and giving KB users the option to adjust small amounts as J suggested.

The cross hair by itself isn't as big of a problem as the line because you are almost never in a position where you are flying in a straight line towards the goal, which is the only time your crosshair and your shot line up (and even this is only over short distances).

IMHO the only advantage mouse users really got in terms of shooting was those low shots, which agree was a lot easier than using keyboard. For the other shots I think it's a bit of a non issue. The reason that these shots are made easier is because they are almost vertical and so the 'drop' as the ball flies through the air doesn't actually change the direction of the shot, merely it's velocity, so this is the only case where the line shows the actual trajectory of the ball. Take the line away and you lose the trajectory, so the shot becomes much harder to pull off even if you have a crosshair because you can't estimate whether it's going to hit the bottom of the goal or not.

I also want to point out that saying mouse users can move their crosshair anywhere whilst shooting is bullcrap, if you're close to the goal but at an odd angle then your crosshair needs to be well beyond the goal, moving it close to see exactly where you'd be shooting would mean you'd turn your throttle off and stall out.

[blln4lyf]

It's an advantage no matter how you spin it. It's extra cues you can use. Once you learn how to use them at odd angles its a huge advantage. It's not balanced, it's really that simple. There are some good solutions in here, hopefully this is fixed once and for all. Your suggestion will not fix the balance.

[Ribilla]

Originally Posted by blln4lyf

It's an advantage no matter how you spin it. It's extra cues you can use. Once you learn how to use them at odd angles its a huge advantage. It's not balanced, it's really that simple. There are some good solutions in here, hopefully this is fixed once and for all. Your suggestion will not fix the balance.

There will never be true balance in controls, you may as well argue that mouse should get a turn speed buff or extra damage in close quarters because it's harder to get an immediate turn when compared to keyboard.

If you take the line and make it a cone you move in the right direction and I believe it would solve the vast majority of the problem, why not be happy with that, especially as you have pretty much zero experience with the mouse line compared to me. It's not like I play enough to even be bias.

[blarg]

i would like to point out two things. first, there are actually two varieties of mouse control: pure mouse, where cursor's distance from plane controls throttle; and hybrid, where you steer with mouse and use up/down keys to control throttle. in the hybrid style, there is no line, just a crosshair, and the crosshair's distance from your plane has no effect. i mention this because some of the suggestions i see here would work for one style but not the other.

second, there is a huge disadvantage to using mouse that nobody has brought up. usually(?) mouse players play with the camera centered on their plane (this is an option; i'm not sure what portion of mouse players do it, but i would guess it is most due to the difficulty of dealing with a non-centered camera). this means that if you are at the top or bottom of the map, kb players that are in the middle will be able to see you, but you won't be able to see them. i consider this a pretty big disadvantage due to how critical game awareness is at high levels of play. it could mean the difference between seeing a teammate getting clear for a pass when running a top or bottom lane, or you might miss what your team or enemies are doing while trying to flank (meanwhile they see you trying to be sneaky).

[blln4lyf]

Originally Posted by Ribilla

There will never be true balance in controls, you may as well argue that mouse should get a turn speed buff or extra damage in close quarters because it's harder to get an immediate turn when compared to keyboard.

If you take the line and make it a cone you move in the right direction and I believe it would solve the vast majority of the problem, why not be happy with that, especially as you have pretty much zero experience with the mouse line compared to me. It's not like I play enough to even be bias.

Because the crosshair is by far more of an advantage.

[DICK van DYKE]

Originally Posted by blarg

second, there is a huge disadvantage to using mouse that nobody has brought up. usually(?) mouse players play with the camera centered on their plane (this is an option; i'm not sure what portion of mouse players do it, but i would guess it is most due to the difficulty of dealing with a non-centered camera).

You should try playing without camera centering in 1dm servers now that takes some getting used to

[blarg]

Originally Posted by DICK van DYKE

You should try playing without camera centering in 1dm servers now that takes some getting used to

due to the non-standard camera scale i take it? that must be irritating... truly we mouse users are spoiled 8)

[classicallad]

Yeah i played laser with mouse for an hour last night. Although i struggled to get to grips with using weapons on the mouse as i used turning & throttle, i noticed a dramatic increase in ease of aiming and maintaining my laser on an enemy. Now this doesn't say it's OP, it just hints that its easier to aim with. Regardless, i'm sticking with ma keyboard :3

[Tekn0]

I disagree that the crosshair/line is only useful for flying and not for making shots. Sure there are quick turns + shots where the line would be offset momentarily until your plane stabilizes, but there are tons of shots where both kb and mouse users have fully stabilized plane which gives the mouse users a distinct advantage.

I personally, don't care much for the crosshair/aimbot balance only because it's not easy to come to a solution that everyone agrees as "balanced" nor do I have any immediate solutions (no I don't like the idea of adding line/crosshair to keyboard users, that reduces the skillbar a lot), my main gripe with mouse vs kb currently is the thermo-resitance buff, IMO the thermo resistance buff was a bit too much.

As many have already stated, it's impossible to perfectly balance both input modes as they are fundamentally different, but we are all trying to offer suggestions to reduce the margin of difference between the two.

[mssv]

When, general speaking, it comes to the point to change something the solutions never happens by removing or changing something from the X group of ppl so Y is happy. That's because X is going to be unhappy and at the end the problem becomes a problem. The solutions always happens by giving something to Y so they have no matter of complain.

In this case, the only solution I see it's giving to everyone a line and a moving crosshair. Why? Because you are complaining about 3 ppl having a line and a crosshair, so, get it then, be happy with your new "aimbot" as you called it.

But then, you say you don't want the line and crosshair because you don't want to "reduce the skillbar a lot", hence I understand You like challenges, but then, again, why complain if you like to keep your skillbar high so you face a challenge? Maybe you need a cookie, or a dog, or a new keyboard and we are talking about balancing a game, and... You seems confused. Also, how hard can it be to understand on and off, if you don't like it, turn it off! Things were never that easy huh!?


Cheers

[Aki1024]

This problem has played out before in other communities. The solution for them is to not let the console players (controller = kb) play with PC players (mouse) because a controller is inferior for aiming.

All hail:
TBD Ladder Keyboard #1
TBD Ladder Keyboard #2
Ball Ladder Keyboard #3
Ball Ladder Keyboard #4
TBD Ladder Mouse #1
TBD Ladder Mouse #2
Ball Ladder Mouse #3
Ball Ladder Mouse #4
EU TBD Ladder Keyboard #1
EU TBD Ladder Keyboard #2
EU Ball Ladder Keyboard #3
EU Ball Ladder Keyboard #4
EU TBD Ladder Mouse #1
EU TBD Ladder Mouse #2
EU Ball Ladder Mouse #3
EU Ball Ladder Mouse #4

[DICK van DYKE]

The impact of the crosshair visual is exaggerated. Mouse/kb is just a very intuitive way of playing and easy to get good at because hitting a target is basically the equivalent of clicking on a desktop icon. You don't actually look at your cursor waiting for it to reach the icon and then click, it's one smooth motion built into your muscle memory.

[classicallad]

Originally Posted by Aki1024

This problem has played out before in other communities. The solution for them is to not let the console players (controller = kb) play with PC players (mouse) because a controller is inferior for aiming.

All hail:
TBD Ladder Keyboard #1
TBD Ladder Keyboard #2
Ball Ladder Keyboard #3
Ball Ladder Keyboard #4
TBD Ladder Mouse #1
TBD Ladder Mouse #2
Ball Ladder Mouse #3
Ball Ladder Mouse #4
EU TBD Ladder Keyboard #1
EU TBD Ladder Keyboard #2
EU Ball Ladder Keyboard #3
EU Ball Ladder Keyboard #4
EU TBD Ladder Mouse #1
EU TBD Ladder Mouse #2
EU Ball Ladder Mouse #3
EU Ball Ladder Mouse #4

lol! Can't see that being a problem here at all!

[Tekn0]

Originally Posted by mssv

When, general speaking, it comes to the point to change something the solutions never happens by removing or changing something from the X group of ppl so Y is happy. That's because X is going to be unhappy and at the end the problem becomes a problem. The solutions always happens by giving something to Y so they have no matter of complain.

In this case, the only solution I see it's giving to everyone a line and a moving crosshair. Why? Because you are complaining about 3 ppl having a line and a crosshair, so, get it then, be happy with your new "aimbot" as you called it.

But then, you say you don't want the line and crosshair because you don't want to "reduce the skillbar a lot", hence I understand You like challenges, but then, again, why complain if you like to keep your skillbar high so you face a challenge? Maybe you need a cookie, or a dog, or a new keyboard and we are talking about balancing a game, and... You seems confused. Also, how hard can it be to understand on and off, if you don't like it, turn it off! Things were never that easy huh!?


Cheers

Hah.. I have not once mentioned I want an aimbot for the keyboard, but the aimbot line for mouse is clearly an advantage. The visual clue aids as a hit-confirm trigger for muscle memory while it is absent for the keyboard. No matter how you argue around this mouse offers an undeniable edge for more consistent shots. I'm not complaining about it and I accept it's part of how the controls are.

If ppl feel this is the aspect of mouse that needs balancing, the worst case scenario is to add a line to the keyboard, I personally don't want it and feel there can be ways to tweak the existing controls to reduce the disparity between the two control modes.

It's not a question of turning off the line if it were added for keyboard. If I wanted to make things harder for myself I'd just play using other body parts than using fingers on the keyboard... pun intended.

[Aki1024]

Originally Posted by Tekn0

If ppl feel this is the aspect of mouse that needs balancing, the worst case scenario is to add a line to the keyboard, I personally don't want it and feel there can be ways to tweak the existing controls to reduce the disparity between the two control modes.

The alternate solution of a cone in front of the player that doesn't necessarily show the pointing direction but still shows throttle would reduce it's "you are aiming here" function. Someone previously created a concept for this.

[LewisH]

I'm (surprisingly) kind of agreeing with DvD.
I play flexi loop, with mouse + keyboard, and without the cursor I might as well be flying blindfolded.
It's NOT a matter of 'point and click', as tekn0 seems to be implying*.
When I'm playing my cursor is almost always near the edge of the screen, as oppose to where I'm shooting, and in the middle of a fight the last place i want to be looking is at my cursor. It's there, in my peripheral vision, so if I'm moving i have a point of reference so i know how to move my mouse to go where I want.

Ok, that was a really bad explanation, but that brings me nicely onto my next point. I can't analyze how the controls effect me, because it just works! It's intuitive, especially for people coming from fps like me(Quake 3 to be specific) you don't think about the mouse in your hand, you want to go somewhere or you want to turn to shoot, and your muscle memory takes care of the rest, flicking your hand to the right place and waiting for your plane to turn.
I do however understand the concerns about shooting in ball.
If you've practiced enough you'll know the ball dynamics, and having a reference point like the cursor might be a slight advantage to lining your shots up.

I'm so used to flexi loop that when i shoot i don't line my shot up, i just sort of flick my hand where i want to be, then release the ball AS my plane is turning, when it's in the right place (again, kinda hard to explain, this sometimes messes up my bounce shots, but i much prefer playing like this, and having fun's what i care about). I understand this might not be the case for many people, but one thing i am sure of is that no matter what control method you're using the shooting's often the easy part, it's getting there and working with your team to kill the others as quickly as possible that's hard.

Ok, many experienced ball players are probably annoyed ay me for saying that, many shots and passes need to be perfectly precise as to just skim the enemy planes, but personally I'd argue that latency can be way more important here than a cursor on the edge of your screen showing the position your plane is turning toward. (it's so frustrating when a bounce shot perfectly skims an enemy on my screen, then a fraction of a second later they're flying past me, holding the ball -.-)

Also, I'd like to (again) bring up the massive disadvantage of using mouse (both modes). When near the top, bottom, left or right of a map, you have LESS map vision than a keyboard user.
Often (if you have good map awareness) you know where your team members will be, and can accurately off screen pass, but when an enemy kb user's HC or trick shot comes from directly above or below you, it can be difficult to dodge. They can see you, you can't see them. Disregarding this is pure ignorance.

Bringing me to my final point, how can three(please stop categorizing the two mouse modes as one) control methods which are so different be accurately, objectively balanced?
They cannot. there will always be an aspect of personal preference, as it is i think the controls are balanced, and think no changes are necessary.

Evidently I am just one person, many people disagree with me, after all, it's a very Subjective topic.

tl;dr: Don't take my cursor D: (but seriously, if you care just read it )

Continue discussing.

* please correct me if I'm mistaken, I'm not even sure what mode you're talking about (I'm assuming pure mouse, as you reference the throttle line, but then how would the proposed 'balances' affect mouse+keyboard?)

edit:
as for the mouse/thermo thing I don't have much to say. if my position's bad I'll get screwed over and die, if i properly anticipate the shot, with flexi I can (mostly)easily move so it has minimal effect.
I haven't played keyboard properly since early 2012, but i think i remember it being pretty much the same (?)