Patch - Feb 20 - lots of new blue/green perks

[lamster]

The latest patch contains a bunch of test perks. The new perks have not been carefully balanced--those that are fun will stay in the game and receive a proper balance treatment based on your testing and feedback. Let's use this thread to discuss the most recent batch of changes, thoughts about which perks should be kept, and balance suggestions.

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Feb 19, 2009

Decreased afterburner effectiveness while carrying big bomb

Modified Red-Bomber "Suppressor": grenade collision size -15%, removed bounce

Added Red-Bomber "Mega Grenades": bigger, bouncy grenade with single-shot/manual-detonate mechanic

Added Blue "Ace Instincts": increases veteran bonuses by 50% (each veteran bar increases speed/turning/energy-regen/damage)

Added Blue "Reverse Thruster": doubles throttle-down rate and allows reverse thrusting while stalled

Modified Blue "Ultracapacitor": increases max energy by 35% (up from 20%)

Added Blue "Turbocharger": increases energy regeneration rate by 20%

Removed Blue "Superburner"

Added Green "Aerodynamics": increases speed by 10%

Added Green "Flexible Wings": increases turning capability by 20%

Modified Green "Repair Drone": removed 'full energy' requirement, added 'resets on afterburn'
taking damage or engaging afterburners halts the repair drone for the next 2.5 seconds (down from 3 seconds)
repairs 30 hp per second (up from 25)

Modified Green "Heavy Armor": improved armor bonus, removed speed penalty
reduces damage from weapons by 20%

Modified Green "Rubberized Hull": addded knockback reduction, improved collision reduction
reduces damage from collisions with buildings by 65%
reduces knockback from explosives by 35%
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[Ferret]

Originally Posted by lamster

Added Blue "Ace Instincts": increases veteran bonuses by 50% (each veteran bar increases speed/turning/energy-regen/damage)

This is affecting base damage from the nuke. It seems a little over the top since all of the other bonuses already make it pretty easy to get to the base.

The bomb afterburning definitely feels more reasonable.

[protest boy]

Originally Posted by Ferret

This is affecting base damage from the nuke. It seems a little over the top since all of the other bonuses already make it pretty easy to get to the base.

The bomb afterburning definitely feels more reasonable.

I don't know if it's that big a deal...it seems like if you have 3 gold bars and nuke the base it does maybe an extra ~8 HP of damage. Thats hardly anything, especially when you consider how hard it is to get to 3 gold bars, and then who's going to risk losing it by making a bomb run?

It would also help evaluate the perks is if we had info on what other players are using instead of "no icon". If someone's kicking my ass I'd like to know they have ace instincts, or turbo charger, or whatever.

[tmm3k]

Reverse thruster is the best but can you make it take up not as much energy slightly? It seems to drain all of the energy, and it also seems to take longer before you can fire again, when compared with the afterburner.

[TheCapedAvenger]

Could you be more specific about how the perks affect the planes. Like "Ultracapacitor increases max energy by __%". It would be nice to see percentages in the perks menu.

[Snowsickle]

I actually think it's probably a better idea to keep numbers off the main menu. The current descriptions are simple and tell new players what they need to know in fairly basic terms.

However, I am a big fan of looking at numbers and even optimizing for certain objectives when possible. So I do support some kind of official guide being published that contains not only the numerical modifiers for perks but base damage/speed/health etc. for each plane. I do think it should be separated though; detailed information accessible to serious/competitive players through some external means, while the in-game stuff is simple and to the point for newer players.

Not a huge deal but meh, newbie-friendliness is a hot topic lately so I figure I'll toss that in.

[argonide]

reverse thrust- redundant for biplane and miranda, about as useful as biplanes recoil is(other perks are more helpful)

turbocharger- really helps out miranda

Flexible Wings- would probably be more useful in oldschool biplanes, where games were smaller and no thrust led to lots of circling. As it is it just seems to mess up the "feel" of the plane w/o much benefit.

Also a note about the p2p(pay2play). IMO calling it a "free version"(if there is indeed no time limit for how long you can play) versus a "demo" for the version without all the perks/planes would be better; see how runescape does it. "Free" usually markets a bit better than "Free demo". In any case the current website/game is pretty unclear as to what is being offered, it offers a link to buy, but also a link to a free download??.
Of course this all in theory since I still don't really believe this game will ever be released.

[lamster]

I tend to agree with Snow on showing exact numbers in the menu -- sometimes the formulas aren't completely straightforward and it can be a bit overwhelming for new players to see a bunch of numbers that don't really mean anything to them yet.

However, even if there's never a more detailed explanation in the actual game, I will definitely put up an official website compendium of exact, detailed stats on every plane/perk/etc for hardcore players to look at. For now, I'm including exact numbers in the change log with each patch (for example, you can see that the latest patch changed ultracap to boost max energy by 35%).

Regarding reverse thruster-- I'm thinking the same thing tmm3k. In the next patch I'll significantly reduce the energy requirement to see if it works better. Stopping on a dime isn't so handy if all you can do is sit there recharging while the enemy flies by.

Regarding "free vs demo" -- the current plan is to have an unlimited "free version" which is the full game with content limitations (eg you can only use Loopy and a few of the first perks) and then if you purchase the game you get access to the rest of the content. Hopefully this will be clear once we've nailed down the specifics and added the appropriate info screens.

[Blank]

random stuff:

Vote ban please. I don't even see a point in a kick option if you can avoid it (quit/rejoin) or just rejoin after you get booted anyway. Spamming is also an issue. Very little reason to allow people to repeat their previous text entry.

The big grenadier bomb is like a very bad explodet shot. Not a fan.

Agreed with Dio that shrapnal cannon is kinda blah on explodet. It works but it's fairly boring.

If remote mine stays in, it should have a better area effect/knockback than normal mines. I dislodged a few loopies with near misses, but nothing heavier really.

Reverse Thruster is very pointless. Not even sure an energy reduction is going to save it. Increased flight speed and increased turning radius seem awfully pointless. At least combine the two so it could maybe end up being 1 semi-useful perk. I just can't imagine a situation where I'd want this perk. Mirandas don't get into circle fights like that (they can flip anyway), loopies win any loop dog fight with EMP. Biplane still loses to miranda/loopy in a loop fight... so really, who is this perk for? Biplane vrs Biplane? Meh.

Also, combine the two energy perks. I appreciate the difference between the two but I think it'll be lost on most new players. Combine them and lower the bonuses given for each or something.

Heavy Armor also strikes me as pretty damn useless. It's decent on meaty ships (explodet/bomber) but you still seem to destroyed with the quickness in the lighter stuff. Repair drone seems like an infinitely better option when it comes to hitpoints. This either means RD still needs a nerf or heavy armor needs a buff. One idea I had is make a psuedo "last stand" built into heavy armor... that is, the only way you can die is if you have 1 hitpoint... so like if loopy has 50 HP and gets hit twice for 25 damage, he'll still be at 1 hitpoint. The 3rd hit will kill him.

[tmm3k]

Originally Posted by Blank

Reverse Thruster is very pointless.

Reverse thruster is the best because you can just use it to stick to ceilings like a bat.

[nesnl]

Here are my thoughts thus far:

I am still a fan of going back to the old game mode where you can't use afterburner with the bomb. I feel like even though you are making modifications involved with how much benefit you can get from afterburner, it has had an overall effect of making the game less fun for me. This is because I feel like I have less control over the defense. In the past if someone got by you with the bomb you could feel more accountable. Now it feels like there are too many variables in bomb dropping.

This brings me to the second point which is that spawn times need to be adjusted in my opinion. Whether you change it so there aren't "spawn waves" or have the spawn times varied based on either team size or map width. It sucks if you are playing a game, especially on neutral bomb maps, you are fighting for a bomb with someone and you die only to sit there with a 10 second spawn timer to see them afterburner all the way to your base, drop the bomb, fly away, all the while you are watching the spawn timer count down. I say just get rid of the "spawn wave" aspect and make the spawn timer proportional to the team size. So the more players on a team, the longer the wait.

Mega grenades mode for the bomber seems kind of redundant. You basically are giving the bomber the explodet ability but making it less accurate and has less range. Couple this with the fact that you can only have one out at a time and it basically makes energy management worthless on a bomber with this perk. I know on explodet you can only have one rocket out, but you may also be laying a mine field. I don't know how often on a bomber you are shooting forward and using your tailgun at the same time. I say stick with your original idea and do the whole modify primary/modify secondary for the bomber. There is plenty of things you can do to make the tailgun different than it is now in my opinion.

Ace instincts is an idea that I like in that it rewards stringing together kills, but it also encourages playing a style of game that I don't like in which players play more of a solo "pick off weak players" kind of game and don't really want to go into situations where they might be needed to help the team. Nothing worse than someone sacrificing the team goal in order to preserver their bars. Also, it isn't even clear that the bars do anything to a new user. I didn't even know they did anything until I was playing the game for like 3 months and I asked someone. I think it needs to be more clear that the bars give you bonuses in the final version.

Reverse Thruster is fun to use but I have yet to really use it in a fashion that makes it seem worth it. If you reduce energy cost like you posted earlier then maybe it will work better. Also, maybe if you added more thrust to it it would seem more useful.

I like the idea of keeping ultracapacitor and turbocharger separate. If you combined them it would be all too powerful. Some planes obviously favor one over the other but the values seem fairly balanced as they are in relation to each other from what I have been able to see in testing them.

Aerodynamics and Flexible Wings both were perks that I felt like I couldn't find enough of utility in them to justify taking them over one of the energy perks. Maybe combining these into one perk would make it better like someone said earlier.

Repair Drone just seems too good to not take at this point. I don't say this because the other perks aren't powerful enough but I say it because things like rubberized hull and heavy armor, while great for when they are actually used, end up leaving you at a disadvantage. It's great that heavy armor helps you win a fight, but what good is it if you either engage your next fight with less health or have to fly all the way back to your base (assuming you can't pick up any health packs). Maybe if there was a standard repair drone feature for all planes and repair drone perk was just for "improved repair drone" it would justify picking one of the other green perks. Maybe the regular standard none perk version could be if you are at full energy and haven't used your afterburner for something like 5-10 seconds. I am not really sure if there is any other way to make repair drone not be the obvious choice. Might need to be taken out of the game entirely.

Regarding your idea that you want to make a "free version" that allows the full game with limitations on content. I think this is a bad idea because it will basically end up creating a certain population of players, whether they just don't have the money to buy (young kids or whatever) or they just don't find enough incentive to buy the whole game. These players will only play Loopy (as you defined) and will basically infest the games with an over abundance of Loopy planes. I don't know about the rest of the players, but it gets rather annoying when you are playing a game with a lot of new players and it's 14 planes in the game and 12 of them are Loopy. I am not saying that you should give players access to more planes without paying, but there needs to be some incentive to buy the game outside of just accessing other planes if not to keep the rest of us sane.

-Maimer

[Snowsickle]

Originally Posted by nesnl

Here are my thoughts thus far
This brings me to the second point which is that spawn times need to be adjusted in my opinion. Whether you change it so there aren't "spawn waves" or have the spawn times varied based on either team size or map width. It sucks if you are playing a game, especially on neutral bomb maps, you are fighting for a bomb with someone and you die only to sit there with a 10 second spawn timer to see them afterburner all the way to your base, drop the bomb, fly away, all the while you are watching the spawn timer count down. I say just get rid of the "spawn wave" aspect and make the spawn timer proportional to the team size. So the more players on a team, the longer the wait.

...

Ace instincts is an idea that I like in that it rewards stringing together kills, but it also encourages playing a style of game that I don't like in which players play more of a solo "pick off weak players" kind of game and don't really want to go into situations where they might be needed to help the team. Nothing worse than someone sacrificing the team goal in order to preserver their bars. Also, it isn't even clear that the bars do anything to a new user. I didn't even know they did anything until I was playing the game for like 3 months and I asked someone. I think it needs to be more clear that the bars give you bonuses in the final version.

First, I do agree that spawn times are not fun in small games. However I think a design decision has been made to balance around 4v4ish games and above. In that regard, I don't have a problem with the current system. There needs to be a point where you can kill the entire other team and drop a bomb. This ensures that dogfighting actually matters, rather than just plowing through a couple players and hoping you pull off some stupidly unlikely lob.

Second, as the resident kill whore, I'm going to have to disagree with most of the comment about Ace Instincts. One, there is a decent portion of the community that thoroughly enjoys the dogfighting aspect and plays almost exclusively to more or less set personal records as far as ratio/kill streaks/whatever. Two, I really don't understand the attitude that people who sit back and farm bars/pick off weaker planes are detrimental to the "overall goal". I've found that games definitely tend to trend toward the team that has players with this mindset. More often than not when I refuse to cross the middle it's because the minute I do someone slips by and bombs our base.

Also, I should add that I don't think Ace Instincts actually impacts how many people have this mindset. 3 gold is nice to have, whether it be 150% effectiveness or not. I do agree that bars should probably be explained better to newer players, though I'm not sure of a good way of going about that. Also if you do want to add more incentive for gold players to play offensively, I'd personally suggest upping the gold bar bonus to bombs (45 exp damage at 3 gold maybe? Might be a bit much but that should still result in typical 3 bomb games but leave more room for partials.)

[protest boy]

Thoughts:

Ace instincts:

I never knew until the Ace Instincts perk was added that the bars did anything at all besides give other players more exp for killing you.

Ace Instincts needs to be boosted. I've been playing with it almost exclusively and it's hard to tell it's making a difference at all. On top of that, it's a perk that doesn't do a whole lot until you do get multiple bars so I feel that once you get up there, you should be well rewarded for essentially playing without a perk for a while.

I agree with Snowsickle that there's nothing wrong with people going for lots of kills, no deaths. Whatever floats your boat. Ace Instincts makes that a whole lot more fun, and it makes it more fun to kill someone who you know has been building to 3 bars for the bonus. I think it's a great addition.

Repair drone:

Still way too powerful. There are situations where you might choose heavy armor (i.e. big ffa games where you won't live long enough to repair anyway) but the vast majority of the time repair drone wins hands down.

When comparing RD to flexible wings or aerodynamics, there's even more of a discrepancy.

Decrease RD by half.

Heavy armor: It's hard to tell how good it is without data. i.e. it takes one extra loopy missile to kill you. But it does seem at least noticeable when it's equipped. Might need a slight buff.

Flexible wings:

I like them, and if repair drone is nerfed you might see players opting for survivability due to superior maneuverability.

[nesnl]

Another thing I forgot to mention in my previous post is the current red perks for the explodet.

First, I like the the shrapnel missiles option. The way I see it, the original version of the rocket is more of a defensive rocket: a lot of knockback but not a lot of damage. However, sometimes you want to play explodet more offensively and that's where the shrapnel rocket works well. You can do more damage and not have to worry about hitting someone with 4 rockets and not getting a kill (like what may happen with the original rocket).

Second, I don't like the remote mine. I don't think it's worth the trade off to be able to detonate one mine at your choosing over laying 3, 4 or 5 mines at a time. Also, when you select remote mine you basically take "energy management" out of the equation for the plane. I feel like a lot of the game is how you manage your energy with each type of plane. Explodet already has its first attack limited in that you can only have one rocket out at a time. This basically means you can never run out of energy shooting rockets (unless you basically blow yourself up in the process). The reason this is bad is because you basically end up with "wasted energy." I feel like in any plane you should be able to dump all your energy into your firepower if you decide. This is the exact problem I described with the "mega grenades" with the bomber. You remove the option to let the user dump their energy into firepower which I think is bad. I think you should experiment with that "trip lines" idea or just have that red perk do something other than remote mines. Maybe a variation on the idea of giving the mines more damage/less knockback or doing something like "stall mines" that do no damage but make enemy planes stall if they get hit.

Also, wanted to add that I think the explodet mine ejector seems overpowered. I can't tell if it's just me, but it seems like they eject even farther than they used to with the old perk. I think that the distance of ejection should be reduced or make it so the mines don't arm until they reach the ejection distance. (so you can't just spray mines into someone's face who is chasing you. if they are too close the mines will go by them before they arm).

[protest boy]

Originally Posted by nesnl

I can't tell if it's just me, but it seems like they eject even farther than they used to with the old perk.

I was thinking the same thing.

[Blank]

Originally Posted by nesnl

Second, I don't like the remote mine. I don't think it's worth the trade off to be able to detonate one mine at your choosing over laying 3, 4 or 5 mines at a time.

I've had some limited success with it. It's much better as an attacking explodet than a camping one. You can eject it right into people same as normal mines, or you can whiff it but still knock a guy off course/into a wall on a miss. Absolutely worthless in open areas most of the time though. Could probably use more damage/knockback and I still think it should stay out longer than "normal" mines. I dunno, it's growing on me cause I've managed to kill a few people with it but I certainly wouldn't mourn it's loss.

Also, when you select remote mine you basically take "energy management" out of the equation for the plane.

I don't see this as a problem. I mean really, do you have energy management issues with any other explodet variant? Seriously? You've got to be doing some serious random mine spam to even give a ****, or some afterburning shenanigans and that applies to remote mine explodet as well.

I think that the distance of ejection should be reduced or make it so the mines don't arm until they reach the ejection distance. (so you can't just spray mines into someone's face who is chasing you. if they are too close the mines will go by them before they arm).

I'm okay with the 1nd idea (though, I don't really consider it a problem) but a huge **** NO to the 2nd. Might as well put a giant "RAPE ME AT CLOSE RANGE" sign over every explodet you see. It's not like explodet can dog fight worth a ****.

[DiogenesDog]

Originally Posted by nesnl

I am still a fan of going back to the old game mode where you can't use afterburner with the bomb. I feel like even though you are making modifications involved with how much benefit you can get from afterburner, it has had an overall effect of making the game less fun for me. This is because I feel like I have less control over the defense. In the past if someone got by you with the bomb you could feel more accountable. Now it feels like there are too many variables in bomb dropping.

Eh? I don't see how this gives you any less control as a defender? Could you explain more... feel like I'm missing something here.

That said, I tend to like having afterburner with the bomb. Adds a little more decision making to bomb carries and also keeps the basic control mechanics more consistent.

Originally Posted by nesnl

Ace instincts is an idea that I like in that it rewards stringing together kills, but it also encourages playing a style of game that I don't like in which players play more of a solo "pick off weak players" kind of game and don't really want to go into situations where they might be needed to help the team.

Although I agree that it's unfortunate that some people play like this, I don't think this perk really influences them that much. There are two things I like about it actually:

1) It's a perk that naturally benefits defenders, which makes it sort of role-specific without adding some weird, very artificial bonus for hanging around the base or something.
2) It's a subtle reminder of what the bars do.

My biggest gripe about it is actually just that it only really benefits good players, so the perk may as well not exist for something like 80% of the community.

Originally Posted by nesnl

I like the idea of keeping ultracapacitor and turbocharger separate. If you combined them it would be all too powerful. Some planes obviously favor one over the other but the values seem fairly balanced as they are in relation to each other from what I have been able to see in testing them.

I'm going to disagree with everyone and say that one of these should be cut. I don't see a balance problem with combining them, but I think you get a more interesting feel from having one exaggerated characteristic instead of two diluted ones. Not that it matters much in this case since it wouldn't feel much different, but... why bother?

But yeah, I figure you might as well cut one to make room for a more unique perk. No need to have two that are so similar.

Originally Posted by nesnl

Aerodynamics and Flexible Wings both were perks that I felt like I couldn't find enough of utility in them to justify taking them over one of the energy perks. Maybe combining these into one perk would make it better like someone said earlier.

IMO Flexible Wings is underrated so far.

Originally Posted by nesnl

Repair Drone just seems too good to not take at this point. ... Might need to be taken out of the game entirely.

I'd be all for taking it out. There's already a LOT of healing in the game, and I always liked the dynamic where wounded players have to make a decision between staying out in combat or retreating to the base/powerup locations to heal.

But it IS a really unique/interesting perk, much more so than the straightforward stat boosts of most of the others. I dunno. Maybe just needs a bit of a nerf.

Originally Posted by nesnl

Regarding your idea that you want to make a "free version" that allows the full game with limitations on content. I think this is a bad idea because it will basically end up creating a certain population of players, whether they just don't have the money to buy (young kids or whatever) or they just don't find enough incentive to buy the whole game.

I don't think anyone would disagree with the downsides, but... is there a better option? You have to have a demo, and imo it would be a terrible idea to exclude those players from the main game. Not only does that make them less tempted to buy the full version (since they're not being exposed to the other planes and seeing the cool **** they can do), but it also dilutes the community and makes it less likely to hit critical mass. Which is just a scary scary thing for a PC indie multiplayer-only game.

Oh and I can't find the quote, but I wholeheartedly agree with just jacking up the respawn timer based on the number of players on each team. It's a nice, elegant solution... it slows things down to alleviate the chaos of huge games and speeds things up to keep the action high even in small games.

[Triped]

Most of the changes in the current patch are good. The demo should be timed. Also, what if one of the bombers had a perk/alt fire to launch a little drone with a gun? Too much?

As far as people being too chicken to cross over, I blame poor mapmaking. I see it happening on one map (orange rocks, very wide, forget the name) and not the others.

[Blank]

Any map without a neutral/middle bomb is prone to "side camping". Even neutral bomb games can get some form of "camping" going on.

It should be noted: camping isn't a BAD thing. The problem only stems for when the entire team decides to camp and either not bomb or leave the bomb runner by himself.

[Smushface]

Reverse thrusting is fun and all, but has anyone found a decent use for it?

This is what i think reverse thruster can be used for in its current state
-camping the bomb by alternating stalling and reverse thrusting because you essentially stay still
-getting out of a really bad spot, but this happens so rarely for it to be useful.

Which is to say, reverse thrust is pretty much useless. Correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm assuming the idea behind reverse thrusters was similar to the use of the "brakes" in starfox 64. That is, you suddenly are going much slower and the people who were chasing you are now in front of you.

The problem with this, is that reverse thrusters automatically puts you in a stall and uses up a pretty ridic amount of energy. So if you do try to switch the roles of cat and mouse you have to a) get out of the stall and b) regain your energy, by which time, any competent player would have turned around or escaped.

So for this to be useful, I think that stalls should be removed from reverse thrusters and the energy requirement should stay the same. Also to balance it, maybe when the plane runs out of energy, the plane "runs out" of reverse thrusters and then goes into a stall? Thoughts?

[nesnl]

Originally Posted by Smushface

Reverse thrusting is fun and all, but has anyone found a decent use for it?

I have experimented with Reverse Thrusters a bit and I tried to find situations where I found it effective in combat. The planes that I think it is most important in combat are loopy and the biplane because they have no rear attack and it is the most important to be behind the opposing plane. Obviously for Miranda the reverse thrust is kind of redundant and with the bomber and explodet having a rear attack, it makes the reverse thrust less needed.

My 'tests' were done in the old version with the high energy cost (I think lam lowered the cost in the new patch). The idea behind me tests were to use the reverse thrust to quickly stop and then position myself behind an enemy that was chasing me. As you know, if you are being chased you often die if you try to slow down because the opposing player either shoots you down or slows down with you and therefore it never let's you get behind them.

Basically what I found was that it was hard to get any good results when I was traveling downward. This is because if I used the reverse thruster to get behind someone, all my energy was being drained in using the thrusters. This is because you are fighting the 'gravity' in the game and need more energy to go back up the screen.

The best results were when I was traveling straight up and someone was in chase. I was able to slow down and then reverse thrust for a quick duration which allowed me to often times get behind the enemy plane. I think this was partly due to the fact that the opposing plane wasn't expecting me to get thrust in the reverse direction so they didn't adjust their speed fast enough. This worked rather well on the biplane because if I used the reverse thrust just enough to get behind them, I often had enough energy remaining to get off a quick burst of both my weapons. I will admit that in the process I would often take a fair amount of damage because the other plane would often shoot as I was slowing down. In the end, sometimes I got a kill out of it and sometimes I died. I never really mastered the technique. After the maneuver was complete, the second benefit to doing it while traveling upward was that when i went into the stall after I shot at the opposing player I could just turn my plane downward and then fly away.

I think that I will try this method again with the new reduced energy cost and see if I can't get it to work when flying in a downward direction. Also, it could work really well if you are being chased and you do this while going around a corner. That way the opposing player can't fire on you while you are slowing down and by the time they approach your position you will be reverse thrusting to an area behind them and hopefully doing the bulk of the damage.

[Triped]

I like having some ineffective perks. Can we get a perk that pops up a surrender flag when health gets too low?