Introducing: The Altitude Ladder

[nesnl]

Wow, a lot of posts and a lot of information. I am going to try to address everything hopefully. If you still have an issue that didn't get addressed then post again.

110/95: We, the creators of the ladder, will take everything into account. In all likelihood it will not change unless lamster changes the default view.

Servers Lagging/Causing Disconnects: It's a VPS that isn't very good. It is the same VPS that hosts Captains' Games. When the connection goes bad and the servers go down it is the fault of the VPS, nothing we can control. It sucks, maybe one day we can move up to a better hosting service.

Ratings/Balance: As eth said, we are working hard to improve the ladder. It seems to be popular so we will continue to work on it, but we can't fix everything in a day. As for the ratings and winning/losing points, etc. We are aware the rating system is messed up. It will be fixed early this upcoming week. Maybe Monday or Tuesday. When it is fixed we will run all the games that have been played to date through the new algorithm. The new system will fix a lot of the mentioned problems. We will continue to tweak the system if it is still a problem. As for balance, eth covered that as well. We will build a balancing tool into the website, but it will always be the responsibility of the players in the server to use that information and make the teams unless lamster codes something in that allows us to make the teams via a remote program.

Server Size: I have it set to 16 players for a couple of reasons. First, the more slots that there are the more load the VPS takes. It's crappy enough as it is, we don't need another 10 spectators taking up valuable resources. Second, the vote thresholds are not currently set in a way that would be good for more spectators. Stoptournament is currently set to greater than 49%. I want to avoid a situation where 10 spectators can stop a game without anyone saying anything that is actually playing. As for the person who said the spectators stopped the game currently. It is impossible for them to do that currently unless someone in game voted yes as well.

Admins: Up until I made this post there was only 3 admins. Those admins were myself, eth and nobodyhome. This is because we created the ladder. It was not and is not a popularity contest. Today, we added two more admins: tyr and mikesol. If you have problems with them then let me, eth, or nobodyhome know. We decided to use them because they are fair and I deal with them on a regular basis. Please note that no admin should ever be using the /starttournament or /changemap command. It should all be done by vote. This is to prevent anyone from playing in a game they didn't feel like they had a say in.

I hope that covered it all. If this isn't clear, then ask for clarification. We will continue to work on the ladder. Thank you for the support and all the feedback. I am glad that me, eth and nobodyhome were able to provide something of value to the community. Keep the feedback coming, both positive and negative.

[Vi*]

It's pretty cool that you guys made this system. Obviously this is having a huge impact on altitude, the games being played, the community.

I know you're working hard to make sure that impact is a positive one. Hopefully some of the stuff people have been discussing about votes/admins/teams will help to make it so more time isn't spent in the lobby than actually playing (assuming you're picked for matches). I also hope you'll consider the positive impact you could have on the competitive scene by making the view/scale 110/95.

Some of the issues might sort themselves out, as people get used to the ladder and its rules, and no longer are overfilling it while eating or whatever because it's not novel anymore. That will hopefully also fix the issue of people not being able to find any non-bouncy non-ladder games.

I think it's pretty amazing that you guys did this, though.

[CCN]

i like the limited info personally, but i should play more 11/95 before i opinion it

[eth]

I just wanted to clarify a bit here:

- 110/95 is not gonna happen as long as there are graphics glitches. We simply can't host servers where x amount of players get artifacts all over their screen, no matter how good it is for the competitive scene.

- Better VPS is most likely not gonna happen. We are using the current VPS courtesy of lamster & Karl, me, nobo and Maimer cannot afford a VPS ourselves. So unless we get divine intervetion or something, we're stuck with these issues(and we apologize very much for that - there is simply nothing we can do about it).

[DiogenesDog]

Quick suggestion: it's be really nice if there was an option to check aliases on names in the Altitude ladder. I think Tec has already done most of the work on this here: http://tec27.com/altbouncer/

just need to plug the data into your stats screen

[tec27]

I think thats in the plans. The reason its not there yet is mostly my fault atm, so sorry

[CCN]

problem with autobalance, if you get a bad plane mix. E.g. 3 loopies or 0 whales or 3 trick vs 3 whales.

[Ferret]

Originally Posted by CCN

problem with autobalance, if you get a bad plane mix. E.g. 3 loopies or 0 whales or 3 trick vs 3 whales.

Solution is for people to pick different planes because they aren't locked.

[CCN]

Originally Posted by Ferret

Solution is for people to pick different planes because they aren't locked.

I'm glad you think people here play all planes to a high level.

If they don't they should learn them right? Heck i'm surprised Jaedong hasn't learned all 3 SC races yet, what a noob.


subtext: your solution is bad

[Ferret]

Originally Posted by CCN

I'm glad you think people here play all planes to a high level.

If they don't they should learn them right? Heck i'm surprised Jaedong hasn't learned all 3 SC races yet, what a noob.


subtext: your solution sucks balls.

I don't want to indulge you too much because that's a really pathetic analogy, but the point is that he could beat anyone here with any match up because of his superior micro, macro and understanding of the game. How far off do we need to go with analogies that have little application to the situation, am I supposed to somehow argue against that with "Kasparov can play both white and black?"

In a competitive environment, if your entire team is a plane match up that is bad to play with or play against what the other team has, if none of you have the ability to play any of the other 4 planes, or any of their 3 perk variants, at a competitive level, you deserve to lose.

[CCN]

I guess if you are unwilling to accept the idea of an analogy there is no helping you.


In a competitive environment, at the margin, if you're matched up against people playing their first rate planes, your 2nd rate plane doesn't cut it. Losing due to this reason, luck, is bad.

[Triped]

Originally Posted by CCN

I guess if you are unwilling to accept the idea of an analogy there is no helping you.


In a competitive environment, at the margin, if you're matched up against people playing their first rate planes, your 2nd rate plane doesn't cut it. Losing due to this reason, luck, is bad.

Assume it benefits you as often as it hurts you. I wouldn't worry about it.

[Vi*]

Originally Posted by CCN

I guess if you are unwilling to accept the idea of an analogy there is no helping you.


In a competitive environment, at the margin, if you're matched up against people playing their first rate planes, your 2nd rate plane doesn't cut it. Losing due to this reason, luck, is bad.

If you lose because you're matched against people better than you, is it also luck? Or could it be that you lost because they're better than you?

I think it's good, even fun, to try to adapt your play style and plane build depending on the needs of your current team, and that is why it is fun to try playing competitive matches with random teammates. Or should we try to play all ladder games with only our clan teammates or others who we are used to playing with? Personally I think it's kind of dumb when people go into the ladder server and then try to turn it into a scrim of clan vs random mix.

[wolf'j'max]

I actually i like both random and captain games. I had alot of random games. We just got 10 people pressing f at the same time. Then voted the balanceteams feature and got some nice games. I have no complains and i think CCN that if you don't want a random fun game. Get 9 people out the top tier teams to play with you and have nice rapage games. I just had fun with these peeps.

[Snowsickle]

Originally Posted by CCN

I guess if you are unwilling to accept the idea of an analogy there is no helping you.


In a competitive environment, at the margin, if you're matched up against people playing their first rate planes, your 2nd rate plane doesn't cut it. Losing due to this reason, luck, is bad.

There are two issues with this analogy. One, starcraft is unrivaled in its competitive nature; there is literally no skill ceiling for any one race, so it's never beneficial to put your resources into more than one race. Don't pretend for a minute that altitude has near the strategic depth/skill requirement as starcraft; I can name a dozen people off the top of my head that play multiple planes at the top tier of play.

Second, Vi's comment on adaptation is very accurate. I can make a bad starcraft analogy too - you're a zerg player and you overpool to 5 hatch hydra every game because its the only strategy you've ever practiced and you don't believe in a need to adapt.

[nesnl]

http://www.youtube.com/v/KIzWt7wTp7Q&loop=1

[tec27]

I made an AutoHotkey script to help with some ladder functionality. It has 3/4 main functions:

- Doing /startTournament and /stopTournament votes in one keypress
- Picking a map randomly from the list (and automatically voting it if you so choose)
- Picking a random team to pick first in captain games

It's pretty easily customizable if you open it up, but by default it will automatically perform all votes and send messages to chat (you can make it not do that and put messages in the clipboard instead, if you'd like).

By default, the hotkeys are:
F6 - Start tourney
F7 - Stop tourney
F8 - Choose captain
F9 - Choose map

To customize it, just open up the script in a text editor (notepad, etc.) and read from the top, there are instructions as to what each section does and what to change if you'd like to customize it.

This script will only work on Windows, but that shouldn't be much of a problem because really only 1 person needs to be running it in any given ladder server.

DL Link: http://tec27.com/LadderHelper.ahk

And if you don't have AutoHotkey installed, you can get it at: http://www.autohotkey.com/

[DiogenesDog]

Originally Posted by Snowsickle

I can name a dozen people off the top of my head that play multiple planes at the top tier of play.

Hm, this was also true of SC until about 2 years after release. With a community as small as Altitude's, you're always going to have people who are able to make up for practicing suboptimally by just playing more / being more talented. It's not until people get COMPLETELY INSANE with a game that specialization becomes really vital.

I mean, actually I agree with your overall point, but it's honestly hard to be completely sure. I don't think anyone's maxed out the skill ceiling with any of the planes just yet. Until that happens, we won't really know how high it is.

[CCN]

Originally Posted by Vi*

If you lose because you're matched against people better than you, is it also luck? Or could it be that you lost because they're better than you?

I think what you're trying to say is if you lose while matched against better people it's not luck.

However the nature of a team game means you rely on teammates - so you can, by luck,, have a team that beats another team that has a player stronger than you or is in general stronger than you.

Analogy: Basketball:
Lebron best player but his team still loses. Even though his team was considered better then the Orlando Magic last season they still lost fairly regularly to them due to the player matchup.


In the end all i'm saying is balanced teams are fun, but having a good plane mix also makes for better games.

[Sarah Palin]

The difference from Starcraft is Alti is a team game. Better players with less cooperation and teamwork will lose. In fact, players who have poor teamwork are poor players. Part of the teamwork is flying what your team needs even if it's not your #1 plane.

It's a pain on Core when you have 5 loopies and randas and nobody is willing to fly whale or even bomber. You're pretty much doomed in that scenario.

Every map needs heavy planes, if you don't have them you're gonna get muscled around. Even a noob whale laying mines everywhere can alleviate this.

Having no heavy planes is probably the most common imba scenario... the second most common would be having only one bombrunner, especially on team bomb maps like Asteroids. But this is easier to fix. The third most common would be, I'd guess, having no miranda control. Again not a problem because Tracker and Acid are easy.

The solution is teamtalk it out, and get everyone to do what they need to get the team to win. If you can't do this I agree with Ferret, your team is doomed.

[Herodadotus]

Originally Posted by Sarah Palin

The difference from Starcraft is Alti is a team game. Better players with less cooperation and teamwork will lose. In fact, players who have poor teamwork are poor players. Part of the teamwork is flying what your team needs even if it's not your #1 plane.

It's a pain on Core when you have 5 loopies and randas and nobody is willing to fly whale or even bomber. You're pretty much doomed in that scenario.

Every map needs heavy planes, if you don't have them you're gonna get muscled around. Even a noob whale laying mines everywhere can alleviate this.

Having no heavy planes is probably the most common imba scenario... the second most common would be having only one bombrunner, especially on team bomb maps like Asteroids. But this is easier to fix. The third most common would be, I'd guess, having no miranda control. Again not a problem because Tracker and Acid are easy.

The solution is teamtalk it out, and get everyone to do what they need to get the team to win. If you can't do this I agree with Ferret, your team is doomed.

Yeah, today I was involved in a game where one of the guys on our team left. We continued playing, and we won. We won because we had a wide array of planes, while the other team was a loopy-fest.

[CCN]

Loopies are the plane that add the least to any team. Unless it's a good acid player. Generally if you have more then 1 loopy on your team you have a huge redundency.

[Sarah Palin]

Well 5v5 is too small to have more than one loopy, or maybe Acid + Tracker if the enemy has 3 or 4 Mirandas. It all depends on the enemy team makeup. But I wouldn't say Loopy adds little to the team, I'll take good use of Acid and EMP over biplane damage any day.

[CCN]

i'd take an acid as often as I can, but a tracker I would wish upon my enemy.

[Evan20000]

Loops are also efficient bomb runners. Doubling up supoort with your runner plane means you have an additional slot for another heavy plane.

[cynwulf]

Hi Guys,

Awesome work - thanks for implementing.

One suggestion for fixing the inflation problem is to introduce the degredation of points over time..

Cheers,

Cyn

[Ajuk999]

I have no idea if anyone has said this or not, but I have noticed dozens more people on Altitude Lately. Normally when I log in to Altitude, there is maybe five-ten of my friends on, but now there is at least 25 plus of my friends on! I think The Altitude Ladder has helped boost Altitude's activity, by a huge margin. And for that, a Special Thanks to eth, maimer, and the rest of you guys that put this thing together!

[GMAC]

I've just come off from playing my first game on the ladder. Very fun, very sporting.

It does usually take a long time to get a game in order, but well worth the wait when it finally does start

[[Y]]

I'd like to make an analogy (might be a bad one, tho).

Until the new balance teams function is implemented, joining a ladder server is like getting on line for a rollercoaster that you've never been on before. You often wait a ridiculous amount of time while the teams get sorted, and when they're finally finalized, you could either play an awesome game of competitive altitude fun, or you could get screwed over by stacked teams (good coaster ride, bad coaster ride).

But once again, many thanks to eth/nobo/maimer for all the hard work they've put into this. We greatly appreciate it.

[Flight 666]

Where's slots for spectors?

So...captains game on Ladder is over =/

[DMCM]

About the use of planes...

I only play Biplane and Loopy. Considering the actual fighting skill and map control they're the 2 least useful planes in a 5v5 in my opinion. But they're also the 2 best planes for bomb running (which is mostly what I do) and they have their uses. EMP and acid can be used to control an area from relatively long distance, that's always an advantage. Double Fire is great for defending too, I've stopped countless bomb runs with it. Biplane gets too much punishment from heavy planes and long range weapon requires so much aim, you can't use it for spamming effectively either. So you need to get in close range and fire both weapons to take out heavy planes. That's HARD because they can both attack from front and behind plus they can keep you at long range with their weapons. And that's why I bitch so much about teams with 4 heavy planes (2 explo 2 bombers or 3 explos 1 bomber). They make my light planes utterly useless and for a bomb-runner it's even worse, ruins all the fun in the game. As long as the team doesn't have too many heavy planes, then DF, acid and biplane are all useful, if only at bombing decently like myself.

[wolf'j'max]

i had to leave in game yesterday without knowing that when we strated. eso told me it would be a 2 day ban.
i won't play today and toorrow in the ladder server.

cya,
-wolf-

[tyr]

You can play - just read all the rules next time.
And don't do it again. ^^

[hurripilot]

Originally Posted by DMCM

About the use of planes...

I only play Biplane and Loopy. Considering the actual fighting skill and map control they're the 2 least useful planes in a 5v5 in my opinion. But they're also the 2 best planes for bomb running (which is mostly what I do) and they have their uses. EMP and acid can be used to control an area from relatively long distance, that's always an advantage. Double Fire is great for defending too, I've stopped countless bomb runs with it. Biplane gets too much punishment from heavy planes and long range weapon requires so much aim, you can't use it for spamming effectively either. So you need to get in close range and fire both weapons to take out heavy planes. That's HARD because they can both attack from front and behind plus they can keep you at long range with their weapons. And that's why I bitch so much about teams with 4 heavy planes (2 explo 2 bombers or 3 explos 1 bomber). They make my light planes utterly useless and for a bomb-runner it's even worse, ruins all the fun in the game. As long as the team doesn't have too many heavy planes, then DF, acid and biplane are all useful, if only at bombing decently like myself.

Try Heavy Cannon, DMCM. Long range is it's specialty and I can eat Explos and Bombers for dinner with it. In fact, I usually take on the role of Explo counter in Ladder and League games, which is why I play HC and Bomber. There's too much strategy to discuss in one reply, mayhaps I should write a temporary non-reverse HC guide until someone who's better at it like Eso or Nobo writes a better guide for it. For now, here are some tips.

Using Biplane as a support plane doesn't always mean killing your enemy. Wounding him can also be effective, as it can soften him up for other players to pick off, or force him to go off and hunt for health instead of controlling an area or covering a run.

When escorting, Biplane, and HC Biplane in particular, can be highly effective at sapping, taking out or severly damaging Explodets, Bombers, and Loopys, as well as finishing off those last few stragglers hanging out over the base. It's a quick, clean, and efficient weapon.

When defending, Biplane handles a similar role. When facing a concentrated push, the defending Biplane can position himself above the action, near a choke point. When the attackers pass, the Biplane can swoop in (or snipe, with HC) on the unsuspecting Bomb runner, who is likely at the rear of the enemy formation, and take him out or leave him very badly damaged and highly vulnerable.

These tactics also work for map control. Trying to blast every enemy player in a certain area is just not Biplane's forte. That's what Bombers and Explos are for. Biplane hangs out on the edges of the territory, setting up a run, killing or damaging a key player (Explo, Bomber), then running out of the area to regroup, recharge, and head back in for another pass.

Using tactics like these, I've seen a marked increase in my effectiveness as a Biplane in Ladder and other competitive TBD games. Just something to think about. It's basic stuff when you think about it, but the key is thinking about it and applying it in real time.

[wolf'j'max]

Originally Posted by tyr

You can play - just read all the rules next time.
And don't do it again. ^^

ok thanks i'll just hope next time my mom won't shout "stop in 5 mins" when we're in the middle of a game :S

[eth]

Hurri I think the real problem is that, while biplane/hc is definitely good, it's just outshined by bomber. Lately I've noticed ladder games often end up being pure bombers/explodets with one other plane for bomb carrying. Bomber/explodet simply offer superior map control to _every other plane_ out there, so there's not much reason to pick anything else unless you're extremely good with it. Especially neutral bomb maps turn out to be cluster****s where both teams are forced to pick heavy planes to control the bomb spawn. Not very fun.. hopefully the devs are aware of this problem.

[[Y]]

Even if lam/karl were aware of this problem (if it even is one), how would they go about fixing it? They would either have to heavily modify the currently existing planes, or introduce a new plane altogether (something that we all know isn't going to happen for years or ever).

I suppose some new red perks for biplane/loopy/randa could alleviate the issue a bit, but I'll leave that for someone else to address in the suggestions forum.

[Esoteric]

I think a good amount of plane balancing is through map design. I've noticed biplane to be more effective on grotto than other maps, for instance (and bomber/explodet slightly less effective.) We need fresh maps.

[DMCM]

I don't wanna be THAT GUY and say explodet is overpowered, but a plane that can shoot fast rockets with huge radius that take half your health and stall you... it's kinda obvious why every team wants to have 3 of them. And then to counter those explodets the teams must also have bombers so it's basically a cluster**** of heavy planes where a recoiless biplane, a trickster or a loopy will get destroyed in a fraction of a second.

5v5 is the standard game mode and I agree it's the best, but if out of 10 planes 8 are heavy (like one game I just played on ladder) it'll be less fun and half the players on the game will have no place in those games. Instead of nerfing explodet (which wouldn't be such a crazy idea by the way, it's still by far the most powerful plane) I suggest teams have some control and try to play a more balanced set up... 1 of each plane for example is actually a fun plane build.

[nesnl]

Hopefully one day in the future we will be able to get a full list of stats from games on the server such as planes and perks selected and the entire combat log. Once we get this then we can actually post stats on the most used planes and the most used perks.

But I agree with Esoteric that the game itself is balanced enough and that in order to get a mix of planes you need to do the final balancing on the map design. Current maps lend themselves to certain planes.