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  #1  
Old 01-20-2010, 10:05 PM
nobodyhome nobodyhome is offline
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Default Introducing: The Altitude Ladder




Tired of endless 7v7s spamfests on the official servers? Hate ratio whores and want a game where everyone plays to win? Want to have a real way of determining individual skill so that you can show the Altitude community that you really are the best player? Itching to play competitive games but don't want to bother with the hassle of joining a clan or with dealing with Proleague's scheduling?

Announcing: the Altitude Ladder, brought to you by Maimer, eth, and myself. Our servers are open to all and everyone is encouraged to participate!



How it works:

1. Go on one of the two Altitude Ladder servers (Ladder #1 - 5v5 TBD or Ladder #2 - 5v5 TBD).

2. Wait till there are enough players on the server (10 for tbd, 12 for ball).

3. Use the /vote custom start_<map_name> in the ladderlobby map once you have enough players not spectating.

4. Play the match out. The results will be posted in the Altitude Ladder webpage once the game is finished.


Sounds easy? It is easy! However, before you begin, because of the way the system works, some procedures must be followed in order for games to count. Read carefully, or forever hold your peace when your hard-earned win turned out not to have been saved!

1. The match must be a 5v5! No exceptions!

2. The startTournament must be called in the ladderlobby.

3. The startTournament must not be called off for the entire duration until the match's end. If for some reason a stopTournament must be called, then you must return to the ladderlobby and call another startTournament there.

4. If you want a rematch after finishing your game, you must call a stopTournament and then call another startTournament in the ladder lobby before beginning another. This is to prevent players from being "locked in" to multiple games and unable to leave without risking losses.

5. If someone disconnects in the middle of a game, do not worry. They can return to the game at any time and continue playing, the system only cares about the players that are present at the startTournament.


As with any tournament, there's going to be some rules. But don't worry, let's keep it short here; a more detailed description of the rules will be in the rules page.

Some Basic Rules:

1. Don't be a douche. This includes abuse of any kind, being exceptionally rude on the servers, or obstruction of games in progress in any form.

2. Follow the procedures to make sure your game counts. We will not be recording games missed by the system if the procedures were not followed.

3. Have fun! Climb high! Get serious.


But but, how is the scoring going to work, you ask? Aren't people going to try to stack teams in order to gain an advantage? Fear not!

Rating system:

The rating system will take into account everybody's rating and assign points accordingly. It is a team based adaption of the Elo rating system. In this system, beating a lower rated opponent will result in a smaller rating gain than if you beat a higher rated opponent. Conversely, losing to a lower rated opponent will result in a larger rating loss than losing to a higher ranked opponent. So as a result it is in everybody's advantage to try to decide teams as evenly as possible.


What about prizes? Well, we've got this area covered too:

Prizes:

Maimer, by courtesy of Lamster, has offered to donate 1000 of his community points towards prizes for this later. How they will be given is yet to be announced. It won't just be number 1 on the ladder, as their will be a variety of ways to earn the points!



So what are you waiting for? Go on the ladder and play some games! It's time to get serious.

Much thanks to tec27 for being our coding god and advisor. Thanks to Stormich for advice, suggestions, and general moral support. Thanks to everyone who helped us work out the bugs while doing our test runs on the servers.



FAQ

My game wasn't counted!

Read the Procedures section of this post to see if you followed all the right procedures in playing your match; if you did not, the ladder will not count your game (and it will never be counted). If you
believed you followed all the procedures correctly and your game still wasn't counted, PM the ladder admins (nobodyhome, eth, or Maimer) with a description of the match (the players present, the winner, the map played, and most importantly, the time and day it was played on).

What happens if someone leaves in the middle of a game?

The game will go on, since by being present at the tournament, the leaver had agreed to play a game. The match will be counted even if at the end of the game it is a 4v5. If everyone agrees, a stopTournament can be called and another game can be started with new teams, but the leaver's opposing team is not obligated to do so.

Are there plans to incorporate ball or other modes in the future?

Depending on demand, we may or may not incorporate other modes in the future. Stay tuned, the ladder is going to be in constant development.

What is the rating system exactly?

Code:
New Rating = Old Rating + [ 50 * ( S - E ) ]
Where S is 1 if you won and 0 if you lost, and the value of E is calculated for each team as follows.

Code:
E = 1 / [1 + 10^ ([(Avg rating of your opponents)-(Avg rating of you and your teammates)] / 400)]

Last edited by nobodyhome; 04-10-2011 at 12:39 AM.
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  #2  
Old 01-20-2010, 10:17 PM
Triped Triped is offline
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Very good idea. Can't wait to play.
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  #3  
Old 01-20-2010, 10:19 PM
eth eth is offline
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HOW AWESOME IS THIS? THANKS A LOT GU-

oh wait
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  #4  
Old 01-20-2010, 10:27 PM
Blue Blue is offline
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Awesome idea cant wait thx man
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  #5  
Old 01-20-2010, 10:38 PM
Massi Massi is offline
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I am now an honorary first game ever played ladder person.
And I lost. ACE!!!
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  #6  
Old 01-20-2010, 10:51 PM
eth eth is offline
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Our apologies, due to some unforeseen technical difficulties(shock horror), we won't be able to launch the servers for another ~4 hours. Please bear with us

edit: The ones that played a match already will have their match recorded manually by us, so you didn't lose anything.

Last edited by eth; 01-20-2010 at 10:55 PM.
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  #7  
Old 01-20-2010, 10:53 PM
Pieface Pieface is offline
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This is such a great idea, I can't wait to check it out!
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  #8  
Old 01-20-2010, 10:55 PM
hurripilot hurripilot is offline
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I can see my e-esteem taking a hit from this....
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  #9  
Old 01-20-2010, 10:57 PM
combat combat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Massi View Post
I am now an honorary first game ever played ladder person.
And I lost. ACE!!!
Me too, 0-1 for Combat!!
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  #10  
Old 01-20-2010, 10:59 PM
GGQ GGQ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Massi View Post
I am now an honorary first game ever played ladder person.
And I lost. ACE!!!
+tec! winning bomb drop!
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  #11  
Old 01-20-2010, 11:04 PM
[Y] [Y] is offline
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epic finish by tec
meh we never had a chance against ACE
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  #12  
Old 01-20-2010, 11:06 PM
GGQ GGQ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [Y] View Post
epic finish by tec
meh we never had a chance against ACE
You guys got close, and pulled off a couple of really good attacks.
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  #13  
Old 01-20-2010, 11:15 PM
[FN]MONXY FIST [FN]MONXY FIST is offline
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Guy's i love you.
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  #14  
Old 01-20-2010, 11:43 PM
DMCM DMCM is offline
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Guys I have a question.

The other day I was in a couple of test games in that server.

I lost both but the ladder said I had 66.6% wins. Why was that so?
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  #15  
Old 01-20-2010, 11:58 PM
nobodyhome nobodyhome is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DMCM View Post
Guys I have a question.

The other day I was in a couple of test games in that server.

I lost both but the ladder said I had 66.6% wins. Why was that so?
At the time of the test, the database was filled with dummy data extracted from the games played in captain's game server in the month of december.

You likely had won 4 games in the captain's game server then, so when you lost two more games it made it out to be 66.6% wins.

Neither the test games nor the captain's game data will be counted toward the real ladder.
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  #16  
Old 01-21-2010, 12:08 AM
matattack matattack is offline
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So much for waiting a week eh guys? What was that 30hrs? xD
can't wait to try it!! Great work~
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  #17  
Old 01-21-2010, 01:10 AM
porpus porpus is offline
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awesome job! Good work nobody and crew!

Can't wait to get in there and play with extreme mediocrity.
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  #18  
Old 01-21-2010, 01:27 AM
eth eth is offline
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Okay guys! We finally fixed our technical problems, and the ladder servers are now up and running. Get out there and play!
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  #19  
Old 01-21-2010, 03:24 AM
combat combat is offline
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A question, will the ladder update our nicknames if we decide to change it?

And, I wanted to add my thanks to this system, finally somewhere where everybody (tries) to be a team player and win games. I can't wait to put up some more wins!
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  #20  
Old 01-21-2010, 03:25 AM
GGQ GGQ is offline
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In the beta, the system was designed to change your name on the ladder only if you play five consecutive games with your new name. I imagine that's still how it works.
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  #21  
Old 01-21-2010, 03:32 AM
nesnl nesnl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by combat View Post
A question, will the ladder update our nicknames if we decide to change it?

And, I wanted to add my thanks to this system, finally somewhere where everybody (tries) to be a team player and win games. I can't wait to put up some more wins!
Most questions, such as these, can be answered on the Rules page on the Altitude Ladder website. GGQ is correct in that if you change your name you must play 5 consecutive games with that name for it to reflect on the website.

Make sure you take the time to read all the rules!
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  #22  
Old 01-21-2010, 03:50 AM
combat combat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nesnl View Post
Most questions, such as these, can be answered on the Rules page on the Altitude Ladder website. GGQ is correct in that if you change your name you must play 5 consecutive games with that name for it to reflect on the website.

Make sure you take the time to read all the rules!
Thanks Maimer, I didn't think to luck under the rules section, will look through it thoroughly. And just to clarify, that means once you change it, you have to play 5 more games with the new name, then it will change on the website? And those 5 will still count towards your record and such?
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  #23  
Old 01-21-2010, 04:14 AM
Tank Tank is offline
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can you make it count experience points earned? that would be more of a fair indicator of personal skill level.
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  #24  
Old 01-21-2010, 04:21 AM
Varonth Varonth is offline
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A really nice idea, in also worked out very well.

There is just one think i don't get:

Quote:
The use of /vote stopTournament is strictly prohibited during a Ladder match. If anyone is found to be trying to avoid a loss by using the /vote stoptournament to avoid a loss please take a screenshot and post it along with a description in the Altitude Ladder Thread on the Official Altitude Forums.
Why should it be strictly prohibited?
Just let a 100% vote stop the tournament.
If everyone agrees, or at least doesn't disagree, then they should be allowed to stop a match.
Often someone disconnects during a match due to a problem with their connection or something else.

If now both teams decide to abort the match, they should be allowed to do so in my oppinion.
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  #25  
Old 01-21-2010, 04:41 AM
classicallad classicallad is offline
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this is the best thing that has happened ever, ever. <3
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  #26  
Old 01-21-2010, 04:45 AM
CCN CCN is offline
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great job guys.
Love it.



However if you havn't maybe consider upping the admin count a bit to make games smoother to start?



Reguarless, this, is, awesome.
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  #27  
Old 01-21-2010, 04:48 AM
CDRdude CDRdude is offline
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This looks like a very good idea, but I have one concern. From the rules:

"Any player who is on a team at the start of a match will have results recorded even if they leave the game. This means that leaving a game will not prevent a loss. As a result everyone is encouraged to finish every game they start and to report anyone who habitually leaves games early in the Altitude Ladder Thread on the Official Altitude Forums.

The use of /vote stopTournament is strictly prohibited during a Ladder match."

I was spectating a scrim between ACE and FN, and it looked like tyr had connection problems and was disconnected for a couple minutes. That made me think; if he wasn't able to rejoin the game, his team would have been at a disadvantage, playing 4v5. So it's possible that a whole team can get a loss because of one player leaving.
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  #28  
Old 01-21-2010, 04:56 AM
nobodyhome nobodyhome is offline
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About stopTournament and disconnects:

The point is noted. From now on, stopTournament is allowed at the discretion of the players. If there is a problem with one or more of the players and the other team agrees to restart, they may call stopTournament and restart the game appropriately (remember to call the startTournament in the ladderlobby, however, else the game will not be counted).

However, if the match is already started and a player on your team disconnects, it is up to other team to decide whether they want to allow a restart or not--they are not obligated to do so. Remember, when you are present in a team during a startTournament, you agree to play out the match in full. Also keep in mind that if you do disconnect, you can rejoin the game at any time and keep playing. In addition, if you disconnect and never come back, you will still receive a win if your team happens to win the ensuing 4v5.
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  #29  
Old 01-21-2010, 04:57 AM
nesnl nesnl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Varonth View Post
A really nice idea, in also worked out very well.

There is just one think i don't get:



Why should it be strictly prohibited?
Just let a 100% vote stop the tournament.
If everyone agrees, or at least doesn't disagree, then they should be allowed to stop a match.
Often someone disconnects during a match due to a problem with their connection or something else.

If now both teams decide to abort the match, they should be allowed to do so in my oppinion.
The command stopTournament will cause the matches results to be invalidated. If everyone agrees to stop because of whatever reason then it can be allowed. However, if one team chooses to stopTournament because they are losing, well then that's abuse of the system.

Just make sure that if you are going to stop a match that the other team agrees before you do it. There shouldn't be many cases where this is needed. This is because subs are not allowed. Attempting to sub a player in by stopping and starting a tournament will cause the results to be invalidated. startTournament must occur in the ladderlobby.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tank View Post
can you make it count experience points earned? that would be more of a fair indicator of personal skill level.
Experience points earned currently isn't supported in something we can do. And I think that it actually isn't a very good indicator of skill in a particular game mode, although it might be a good indicator of skill in 1v1 dog fighting. However, in team games you often sacrifice your own stats so that your team can win. I assure you that the mathematical equations used to determine your personal rating on the ladder are a very fair and accurate way of determining skill in a team based game. Give it a shot and you might like it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CCN View Post
great job guys.
Love it.



However if you havn't maybe consider upping the admin count a bit to make games smoother to start?



Reguarless, this, is, awesome.
The admin count is low on purpose. This is because the admins should never be using the /starttournament or /changemap commands themselves. As far as I am concerned this is important to prevent cases where an admin might change a map to something that they wanted instead of what everyone agreed upon. Votes ensure that everyone knows whats going on and results will be as fair as possible.
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  #30  
Old 01-21-2010, 09:07 AM
nobodyhome nobodyhome is offline
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Updated the FAQ to include the formula for the rating system.
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  #31  
Old 01-21-2010, 10:51 AM
-MH-CaptainVogez -MH-CaptainVogez is offline
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I must say I really like this guys - it makes the game seem so much more real for all the players out there!

Is this intended to be a system reserved for those who play in the certain servers only? Because if later on if this could be developed into a generic option for all servers it would be amazing.

Pros:
*Rating of all players who are interested in rankings (me!!!)
*A good rewards system and tournaments can be arranged through this.

Cons:
*Bot farming would be impossible to notice (due to personal servers)
Solution: enable this system also for the Official Servers and Tournament Servers when there is 10 players
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  #32  
Old 01-21-2010, 11:15 AM
Stormich Stormich is offline
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This is working only on the servers that the guys are running. ATM there are 2 servers with ladder capabilities. What happens later depends on the reactions of the playerbase. As of now I think a lot of people like it, the only problem is getting a game started, it takes a lot of time for people to decide

Last edited by Stormich; 01-21-2010 at 11:18 AM.
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  #33  
Old 01-21-2010, 11:32 AM
TAYLOOP TAYLOOP is offline
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Yeah no one wants to take a chance on the losing side. >.< That's the only problem I've seen with this so far, had some great games earlier on it. Thanks to Nobo, Maimer and eth for making it possible
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  #34  
Old 01-21-2010, 12:38 PM
Sarah Palin Sarah Palin is offline
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Yes, it's generally been about 10 minutes playing, then 20+ minutes waiting for people to sort out teams.

One feature you could add to the website is a game matchmaking widget.

A person could type in the ladder ID numbers of 10 players, and the site would compute the most even possible ELO matchup & print it onscreen.

As an example, say the following players are in a ladder server:

tyr (1615)
Maimer (1561)
GGQ (1525)
Class (1520)
Palin (1496)
Luke (1475)
Kombat (1475)
Vi (1473)
Eso (1450)
Sinstar (1418)

The sum is 15,008. So a perfect team will have 7504 ELO.

I picked a few teams of 5 at random. A team of Maimer, GGQ, Palin, Vi, and Eso has an ELO of 7505, while their opponents will have 7503 ELO. Game on!
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  #35  
Old 01-21-2010, 03:02 PM
eth eth is offline
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Realtime autobalance(no need to type in names/IDs) is in the works. At first it'll be on the website, but we'd like to make an Altitude Ladder Launcher later on which displays autobalance in-game.

Also CaptainVogez thats probably not gonna happen since we run a program in parallel with the altitude servers, which tells the website about what's happening etc. Anyway I'm glad most people are enjoying this!

Last edited by eth; 01-21-2010 at 03:06 PM.
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  #36  
Old 01-21-2010, 04:25 PM
VeRiTaS VeRiTaS is offline
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this ladder thing is great...Even the rank list updates the moment the match is over...it is awesome...let's hope it will last for ever :P
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  #37  
Old 01-21-2010, 04:48 PM
Flyngbanana Flyngbanana is offline
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It was working before, but now when i click on someone's name on the ladder this appears...

Database::Error: Database query failed: You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the manual that corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use near '\r\n FROM player_accounts WHERE id=236' at line 1 Query reads:SELECT username,id,vaporid,rating_tbd_5v5,rank_tbd_5v5,wi n_tbd_5v5,match_ids_tbd_5v5,loss_tbd_5v5,streak_hi ghest_win, streak_highest_lose, streak_current, streak_is_win\r\n FROM player_accounts WHERE id=236
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  #38  
Old 01-21-2010, 05:02 PM
eth eth is offline
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Haha sorry Banana, I was just fixing some (potential) SQL injections. It's working now.

edit: Flight, countries are on the to-do list. Autobalancing has priority for now though.

Last edited by eth; 01-21-2010 at 06:32 PM.
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  #39  
Old 01-21-2010, 05:42 PM
Flyngbanana Flyngbanana is offline
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Okays Thought I broke it. :P
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  #40  
Old 01-21-2010, 06:06 PM
Flight 666 Flight 666 is offline
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Would be cool, if possible put a "flag" to show the nationality of each player
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