Smurfing in ladder

[andy]

People wont do it if you dont ban them. I dont think kuja will just stop playing ladder on viborg just because it screws up the balance. If you dont wanna go for the ban at least make sure that the account is used in a serious way (example kuja plays explo not loopy on kuja900 but mixes them on viborg). Im not blaming kuja just using him as an example. My previous post was also an example didnt mean to use a smurf.

[nobodyhome]

The main issue why smurfing really shouldn't be allowed is that each ladder entry should represent one person, not just one account. It makes no sense for Kuja to be simultaneously the #20 and the #30 player (and as has been mentioned, when that happens, the 31st player is really the 30th player, and so on).

With regards to the usage of different planes for different accounts, this shouldn't matter because the ladder entries still represent a player, and not a player's playstyle. This is especially true since people can and do switch planes in the middle of a game. Switching from playing miranda exclusively to playing both randa and other planes should be treated no differently than if you were to, say, go from never bomb running to always bomb running. Your rating will drop but that is because you have made a conscious choice to change your playstyle, not because your skill is different.

[zz-]

Why is everyone ignoring this:

Originally Posted by zz-

#2, because of exactly what happened yesterday. Balln out of nowhere plays at his full capacity (on his smurf name) in games where he wants to win and can ruin any game he wants to at any time.

http://www.altitudeladder.net/match....&mode=ball_6v6

Look at those teams. Balln, whether he admits it or not, tries much harder in games against me. Theres no way our team could possibly win that game with balln playing at full (2800ish) capacity with a free 900 rating points on his team. He ended that game with like 4 goals or so, and had a part in all 6. The game ended 6-4.


Anyway, i'm surprised any of you are trying to defend what would obviously be banned in any game with REAL competition. Just because altitude is a small game with most things being player-run doesn't mean you should do everything you can get away with. In the long run it just ruins competition and drives players who are more into other games (like me) away.

---

I suppose more of you would feel the same way if you were in the top 5, chasing #1, playing against #1 on a different name with a 2000 rating where he is trying as hard as he can.

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by andy

People wont do it if you dont ban them. I dont think kuja will just stop playing ladder on viborg just because it screws up the balance. If you dont wanna go for the ban at least make sure that the account is used in a serious way (example kuja plays explo not loopy on kuja900 but mixes them on viborg). Im not blaming kuja just using him as an example. My previous post was also an example didnt mean to use a smurf.

You are speaking without understanding. I absolutely play loopy on kuja900 all the time in ladder, although I have not laddered at all in past week been too busy.

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by Smushface

This is a stupid discussion.

Use common sense people. Ladder exists so people can have a competitive outlet other than Sundays during leagues.

If your actions deliberately detract from the overall ladder experience, then what you do is in effect, bannable. Quit trying to find scummy ways to get around the rules just so you can get a leg up or for some added internet attention.

Don't use smurfs to rig games. Don't use smurfs to screw up balance. It's not that hard.

And if we are not using smurfs for either of those reasons what is the problem?

[Premier Stalin]

Why do you feel the need to use them in the first place?

Unless you were using them for detrimental purposes, why would you use a smurf?

[zz-]

There are no legitimate reasons to use a smurf account. They do 3 things:

1 - let you have two or more names on the ladder. Everyone agrees this is a bad thing.

2 - let you play games with a separate rating than your main name. Everyone should understand that this is a bad thing.

3 - play ladder with a different name. Since you can edit your name on any account once per day, this reason is hardly worth mentioning.

And for anyone saying they use a smurf so they can just mess around in ladder, well that's already a blurry line (whether or not not trying is bannable) and there are servers for playing when you don't want to harm your ladder ranking - dojo, arr servers, bouncy servers. Ladder is supposed to be competitive and smurfing damages that in like 100 ways.

[Smushface]

Originally Posted by Kuja900

And if we are not using smurfs for either of those reasons what is the problem?

Yea we both know that you're doing it for at least one of those reasons.

Regardless, even though you may claim (and may honestly believe in your demented head) that your actions are neutral, they produce negative externalities on the rest of the community.

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by zz-

There are no legitimate reasons to use a smurf account. They do 3 things:

1 - let you have two or more names on the ladder. Everyone agrees this is a bad thing.

2 - let you play games with a separate rating than your main name. Everyone should understand that this is a bad thing.

3 - play ladder with a different name. Since you can edit your name on any account once per day, this reason is hardly worth mentioning.

And for anyone saying they use a smurf so they can just mess around in ladder, well that's already a blurry line (whether or not not trying is bannable) and there are servers for playing when you don't want to harm your ladder ranking - dojo, arr servers, bouncy servers. Ladder is supposed to be competitive and smurfing damages that in like 100 ways.

I do not care about harming my ladder rating and to get good games I have to play ladder, its the only server next to apl servers that I bother with these days.

[Wok3N^]

If you don't care about harming your ladder rating, then just play on your main account. That way, it doesn't make a difference and you aren't harming other people's ratings by hurting the balance. It is quite simple.

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by Wok3N^

If you don't care about harming your ladder rating, then just play on your main account. That way, it doesn't make a difference and you aren't harming other people's ratings by hurting the balance. It is quite simple.

Nah I don't care about rating at all on viborg so I can just play stress free but still optimally.

[Sunaku]

Originally Posted by Kuja900

Nah I don't care about rating at all on viborg so I can just play stress free but still optimally.

Does not compute.

[Boko]

Originally Posted by Kuja900

I paid for 2 accounts I have the right to play on whatever account I like.

Whateva! I do what I want!

Fitting picture don't you think?

[shrode]

Originally Posted by zz-

There are no legitimate reasons to use a smurf account. They do 3 things:

1 - let you have two or more names on the ladder. Everyone agrees this is a bad thing.

2 - let you play games with a separate rating than your main name. Everyone should understand that this is a bad thing.

3 - play ladder with a different name. Since you can edit your name on any account once per day, this reason is hardly worth mentioning.

And for anyone saying they use a smurf so they can just mess around in ladder, well that's already a blurry line (whether or not not trying is bannable) and there are servers for playing when you don't want to harm your ladder ranking - dojo, arr servers, bouncy servers. Ladder is supposed to be competitive and smurfing damages that in like 100 ways.

<3

great post. this is even better than my pros and cons

[-MH-CaptainVogez]

Originally Posted by mikesol

I think part of this issue could potentially be solved by having ladder rankings change over time. I don't know how many of you played World of Warcraft - but the system in there was that you had to play at least 10 games a week to get credit for it. In other words, if someone gets to their top spot and then leaves - they would be removed from the rankings until they played 10 games again. This is to prevent people from getting a great number of points and clouding up space.

Note: Let's say Kuja is at 2500 and decides not to play for a week. When he comes back his rating will still be at 2500. He just won't be listed in the actual rankings until 10 games a week have been played (or we could do like 5 games a week if people think 10 is too much).

If this system is proposed and used, in lieu of the entire discussion previous, 10 games is a tad too much every week I believe, as I rock up online a lot of the time and noone is in the servers due to it being their midnight (the day before me) and they're either getting drunk or sleeping.

Also, if nobo has a good solution to this slight problem, then i look forward to its implementation.

[CCN]

Originally Posted by nobodyhome

With regards to the usage of different planes for different accounts, this shouldn't matter because the ladder entries still represent a player, and not a player's playstyle. This is especially true since people can and do switch planes in the middle of a game. Switching from playing miranda exclusively to playing both randa and other planes should be treated no differently than if you were to, say, go from never bomb running to always bomb running. Your rating will drop but that is because you have made a conscious choice to change your playstyle, not because your skill is different.

If you are fine with players always bouncing up and down the rankings and thus making games lopsided as a result then thats you're call. I like to play my randa and loopy and switch intermittently, I guess i'll get used to always winning on loopy and losing on Miranda, and my team will have to get used to that also.

Ladder entries represent a play style. If you want to change that to represent a player then you are making sure people can't reach their equilibrium rating. I.e. Idra doesn't terran on his zerg account so he gets appropriate level games on his zerg and terran account

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by shrode

<3

great post. this is even better than my pros and cons

That point made no sense there are absolutely no good games in those servers ever in the history of their existence. I do not play public servers anymore for the most part, ladder is pretty much all I do when I play and its because it is the only place I can find good games.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Kuja900

That point made no sense there are absolutely no good games in those servers ever in the history of their existence. I do not play public servers anymore for the most part, ladder is pretty much all I do when I play and its because it is the only place I can find good games.

In my opinion there are good games in some public servers, but if you don't play in those ones you can't know it.

And if you want to play good games, that means you have to play good right ? Therefore why are you not playing with only one account ?
(Dont give me the "Stress free" excuse)

Don't care about rating just play stress free

>Not in ladder< imo

Val.

[CCN]

Originally Posted by Valandil

In my opinion there are good games in some public servers, but if you don't play in those ones you can't know it.

And if you want to play good games, that means you have to play good right ? Therefore why are you not playing with only one account ?
(Dont give me the "Stress free" excuse)


>Not in ladder< imo

Val.

No........................

[Boko]

Kuja is referring to good TBD games (Dojo and Arr are ball servers and I won't get into the bouncy part. ugh)

[shrode]

i also agree that there are not good games outside of ladder and leagues, but still, the reasons that people play on smurfs that zz pointed out are terrible, and everybody agrees that they have at least a little negative impact. (even kuja stated once in-game that smurfs mess up game balance for at least a little while)

selfishly wanting to play 'stress free' or have two high rated accounts to make your e-peen bigger is simply less important than the should-be right of having the number next to your name be the number of people that are doing better than you + 1.

[Boko]

I think smurfs should be disallowed, but I don't think there's a bulletproof way of filtering them out. How will you ever know if a certain account is someone's smurf?

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Boko

Kuja is referring to good TBD games (Dojo and Arr are ball servers and I won't get into the bouncy part. ugh)

Oh 'kay I was referring to Ball games .

I had already forgotten there was a TBD mode

[VipMattMan]

Smurf accounts are definitely going to have to be banned for season 2, if not sooner. I said this before i saw this thread today, but Balln's second account was influencing too many games with that much lower rating.

When Ball'n got #1 a couple of weeks ago i told him he should play his smurf until someone got his spot. I viewed it as the equivalent of a new player coming in who was incorrectly rated, and thought he'd try to quickly get the smurf to where his main was for bragging rights purposes. Instead it became an account that was lacking in incentive for him to play his hardest on.

The account floated around #30 despite him playing all the time. He said it was correctly rated because he wasn't as focused on that account. That would be all well and good if he was consistently "unfocused" on that account. The truth is it seemed he played to his capacity more frequently when there were specific challengers going against him, and less so when there weren't.

I don't think he was consciously sabotaging anyone. He's been encouraging of me while i try to get #1 back, and did seem to play to his full capacity occasionally while on my team. It's just human nature to not try as hard when there's no incentive, and to try harder when the incentive is there.

To see the level of influence that account had, all you have to do is look at what happened in the past day or two. Balln said he got tired of people talking about the smurf account being rated too low, and instantly shot up the ratings to #12. What games were lost and won while he floated around #30 were almost at his discretion.

Now that the account is starting to get more appropriately rated i don't have as much of an issue with him playing on it for right now. Even though the incentive still isn't totally there for him, at least the teams won't be completely skewed. But smurfs definitely need to be banned in the future.

[CCN]

I agree smurf accounts where people are playing their same style serve no purpose other then to distort rankings.

[beefheart]

Yeah, so everyone just stop playing with your smurfs.

[CCN]

Originally Posted by beefheart

Yeah, so everyone just stop playing with your smurfs.

unless ur playing a different plane style setup.

Agleed.

[drunkguava]

Originally Posted by CCN

I agree smurf accounts where people are playing their same style serve no purpose other then to distort rankings.

Yup ccns splitting of accouts is the only way that makes sense to me. Though if we do decide to ban smurfs, I don't know if we will differentiate.

And Matt I agree 100%

[blln4lyf]

Originally Posted by drunkguava

Yup ccns splitting of accouts is the only way that makes sense to me. Though if we do decide to ban smurfs, I don't know if we will differentiate.

And Matt I agree 100%

The plan originally was to play other planes on my smurf, aka TA/loopy, maybe some other plane if I wanted to learn it. That faded though. My smurf is not really underrated anymore though so most of the issues that could be are eliminated for the time being. Once S2 comes along I'm sure they will be banned, and I clearly won't be playing ladder with it, unless for some reason the differentiating is done, then I will only TA/loopy with it, or something along those lines.

[Sunaku]

I don't get that different playstyles argument. As Nobo said, the rating is there to represent a player. Assuming the rating's intent is to show the skill of a player and even if the result is questionable (not to say crazy), why would playing a subpar setup not be reflected on your rating ? Either you play an uncomfortable setup and you must be ready to face the consequences, or you play it elsewhere than ladder.

And to underline the fact that the rating is not synonym to playstyle, I'll submit to your consideration the plane composition factor. The competition in ladder is more than camping on your favorite plane and perks, it's also adaptating to an ever-changing environment. As a result, sometimes your team might use your ability to differ from your monolithic playstyle.

Originally Posted by VipMattMan

But smurfs definitely need to be banned in the future now.

Fixed. Really, the ladder balancing, which is the system essence in its current form, is ruined at the moment. Which is why action is required right now, not in the future.

[Boko]

How are you tuff bois gonna know which accounts are smurfs?

[matattack]

Yea unfortunately I think kujas smurf has already done the damage. Now viborg is probably rated at it's correctish rank..the only issue as nobo said it it shifts everyone else below viborg down 1 rank. Which I guess could mean srsbsns for a lot of you guys. Tho I see that's bad, I think the damage in fairness of ladder already got messed up and that issue can't really be all that bad now. Balln's case I don't know much about but if it is in the process of screwing with ranks I would stop it sooner rather than later..

I guess there arnt many ways to make this fair in the end tho..smurfing is bad because it's a conscious understanding that you know how you are effecting the balance of games and yet it doesn't matter because it does not effect yourself but in all honesty if you really did not care about ranks kuja, you wouldn't need that casual account..just play kuja casually if that's the case right? Well obviously that wouldn't happen as much as you say you do just to make people think you play better then how you normally play..anyways im pretty sure kuja and any other smurfers know what theyre doing is wrong so either ban em for a certain time when that account is for sure a smurf account, or just let it be and eventually everything shifts back into place..cause in the end, people will play drunk, high, or anything that could potentially screw it up for the team..so it's not like the ladder rank defines exactly where you are.

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by matattack

Yea unfortunately I think kujas smurf has already done the damage. Now viborg is probably rated at it's correctish rank..the only issue as nobo said it it shifts everyone else below viborg down 1 rank. Which I guess could mean srsbsns for a lot of you guys. Tho I see that's bad, I think the damage in fairness of ladder already got messed up and that issue can't really be all that bad now. Balln's case I don't know much about but if it is in the process of screwing with ranks I would stop it sooner rather than later..

I guess there arnt many ways to make this fair in the end tho..smurfing is bad because it's a conscious understanding that you know how you are effecting the balance of games and yet it doesn't matter because it does not effect yourself but in all honesty if you really did not care about ranks kuja, you wouldn't need that casual account..just play kuja casually if that's the case right? Well obviously that wouldn't happen as much as you say you do just to make people think you play better then how you normally play..anyways im pretty sure kuja and any other smurfers know what theyre doing is wrong so either ban em for a certain time when that account is for sure a smurf account, or just let it be and eventually everything shifts back into place..cause in the end, people will play drunk, high, or anything that could potentially screw it up for the team..so it's not like the ladder rank defines exactly where you are.

I am pretty sure you did not read anything I or anyone else said before you typed this ignorant piece of work.

[ufo]

Originally Posted by matattack

but in all honesty if you really did not care about ranks kuja, you wouldn't need that casual account..just play kuja casually if that's the case right?

I read the whole thread and I couldn't have worded this any better myself. kuj grow the **** up