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  #1  
Old 01-06-2011, 08:23 PM
Wyrd Wyrd is offline
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Default Sky League, not a world cup, plz fix

CCN, first of all {ARR}, the Sky Pirates, would like to thank you and your fellow SL admins for all the work you have done and do to create a ball league. Having leagues is much more fun than just scrimming, thank you.

And now it's time for the inevitable but.

Since there's no EU, or other non-American SL server and the rules don't provide another way to play on a non-American server, other than both teams agreeing to it*, we and all the other European clans currently playing in SL with us, are of the opinion that the current full title of SL, "The All World 3rd Sky league Ball World Cup", is flawed.
The repeated "World" part in the title gives the appearance of everyone in the world being on an equal footing in this World Cup tournament, which is most definitely not the case. Because all the servers are located in America, teams consisting mostly or entirely of non-American players suffer from lag, some very badly, while the American teams have hardly any. Not very "World" cup.

*: In the AH vs ARR match we played one game on an EU server (thanks for agreeing to play an EU server game, AH) after two ARR losses, resulting in a win for ARR, after which we promptly and officially returned to the APL server because AH understandably couldn't handle the lag. US teams are unlikely to agree with playing on non-official EU servers because it gives them lag, and lag sucks, do not want! AH's exclamations during the EU server match echoed our own on the APL servers, basically "WTF, I had that!" and "Lag sucks!".

I can, after some breathing exercises, handle being defeated, even, eventually, being defeated in a way that makes it seem like we dropped the soap in a prison shower (thanks Ball). I find it a lot harder to accept a loss when it's due (perhaps only partially) to circumstances beyond our control, like the lag. Especially so when this disadvantage is unacknowledged and even in a way actively denied as it is by "The All World 3rd Sky league Ball World Cup".

We kindly request you to either rename the full title of the Sky League, to acknowledge the fact that it takes place on American servers and not servers around the world, making it a home game for US teams, and an out game, with a disadvantage for non-American teams who participate; "The 3rd Sky league Ball Cup" would work just fine, even better would be "The 3rd Sky League American Ball Cup" or variations thereof.
Or, and this option is much preferred, please incorporate non-American servers into the World Sky League to make it a true World Cup. The Arr and Air private servers can be used for this purpose. Provide fair World Cup Home & Away rules that would even the playing field by giving everyone a piece of the lag cake. The Home and Away rules from Dougie's aptly named "European Altitude Ball League Cup" are quite suitable for this purpose.

Signed,
Wyrd for {ARR}

Supported by
=AIR=, F.C. & -={8}=-


TLDR:
The All World 3rd Sky league Ball World Cup is not an All World World Cup. It's an American Home Game Advantage League due to the server locations. Rename it to show this fact or rather please fix it so that everyone eventually gets a piece of the lag pie.

TLDR for people who want to troll:
Waaaah! ARR lost, I blame lag! Make lag go away.
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  #2  
Old 01-06-2011, 09:08 PM
mlopes mlopes is offline
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+1

10chars
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  #3  
Old 01-06-2011, 09:39 PM
shmo55 shmo55 is offline
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Why don't we just alternate between EU and US servers for the different tourneys
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  #4  
Old 01-06-2011, 09:59 PM
sunshineduck sunshineduck is offline
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unfortunately, this is not a problem that can be easily solved.

the ladder servers, official servers, and both ball dojos are located in the US: the only servers that I know of that have high traffic and are located in the EU are the {arr} servers, the =AIR= private servers, and ledow's football. clearly the location of the servers is an issue, but I feel that CCN handled it the best way he could - by allowing usage of non-APL euro servers if both teams agree. by sheer circumstance, EU players are consistently playing with lag on the more densely populated US servers, ladder especially so. forcing US teams to play a set number of games on EU servers is pretty unfair considering that your homefield advantage on the EU servers will be greater because US players never have to play with lag and it would thus ruin the entire team's timing. while this is no fault of yours, the fact that you consistently have to play with lag and are thusly quite used to it means that it's much more unfair for US-based teams to have to play on EU servers than the other way around.

please don't try to argue the semantics of it being a "world" cup. the actual world cup is played in one country and one country alone every four years, and not every country participating in the cup gets a chance to host it. i don't mind if you want to argue the parity forcing US players to play on EU servers, but using the name of the tournament as a basis of your argument is rather silly. let's stick to more fundamental arguments, shall we?
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  #5  
Old 01-06-2011, 10:42 PM
Wyrd Wyrd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunshineduck View Post
unfortunately, this is not a problem that can be easily solved.
Yes, it is, let games be played on the =Air= and {Arr} private servers. We're happy to host them. And not just when both teams agree, but with the EU ABL cup Home and Away rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunshineduck
by sheer circumstance, EU players are consistently playing with lag on the more densely populated US servers, ladder especially so.
This is just not true. There's traffic on the European servers, because we like playing there, without lag, and we play on them a lot. I know plenty of European players who avoid ladder because of the lag there. Maybe you play mostly during US evenings, when EU servers are quieter, and thus those Europeans still awake and playing are forced to the US servers, and this is skewing your perception.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunshineduck
forcing US teams to play a set number of games on EU servers is pretty unfair considering that your homefield advantage on the EU servers will be greater because US players never have to play with lag and it would thus ruin the entire team's timing. while this is no fault of yours, the fact that you consistently have to play with lag and are thusly quite used to it means that it's much more unfair for US-based teams to have to play on EU servers than the other way around.
I see plenty of American players play on European servers, I'm sure they can handle ruined timing as well as European players.
Even the European ladder players are used to usually playing on a team with a mix of high and low ping, and playing against a team that is also a mix. Having their entire team lag versus a lag-free team ruins their timing just as much. And like I said, your statement that "EU players are consistently playing with lag" is just not true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunshineduck
please don't try to argue the semantics of it being a "world" cup. the actual world cup is played in one country and one country alone every four years, and not every country participating in the cup gets a chance to host it. i don't mind if you want to argue the parity forcing US players to play on EU servers, but using the name of the tournament as a basis of your argument is rather silly. let's stick to more fundamental arguments, shall we?
The actual world cup is on the internet? Where there's no hour-long flights required to switch locations, only a few mouse clicks? Please don't try to make an inept analogy.
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  #6  
Old 01-06-2011, 11:19 PM
sunshineduck sunshineduck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyrd View Post
Yes, it is, let games be played on the =Air= and {Arr} private servers. We're happy to host them. And not just when both teams agree, but with the EU ABL cup Home and Away rules.
my statement wasn't in regard to lack of servers to play on, it was referring to the fact that US players have a distinct disadvantage playing on EU servers as opposed to the opposite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyrd View Post
This is just not true. There's traffic on the European servers, because we like playing there, without lag, and we play on them a lot. I know plenty of European players who avoid ladder because of the lag there. Maybe you play mostly during US evenings, when EU servers are quieter, and thus those Europeans still awake and playing are forced to the US servers, and this is skewing your perception.
selective quoting is fun, isn't it? i am fully aware of the fact that there are highly populated EU servers, as i pointed it in the part of my paragraph that you so handily decided to leave out. as an active member of &Twisted&, i can say with confidence that not one of our members plays on EU servers consistently and typically not at all unless it is absolutely unavoidable while still playing Altitude, and playing on an EU server would bork our timing substantially. unless the entire point of this thread is to nerf us, in which case i am fully willing to accept this handicap and stomp on your faces assuming you are willing to admit you are scared of us. weenies.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyrd View Post
I see plenty of American players play on European servers, I'm sure they can handle ruined timing as well as European players.
This is just not true. There's traffic on the US servers, because we like playing there, without lag, and we play on them a lot. I know plenty of US players who avoid euro servers because of the lag there. Maybe you play mostly during EU evenings, when US servers are quieter, and thus those US players at home and playing are forced to the EU servers, and this is skewing your perception.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyrd View Post
Even the European ladder players are used to usually playing on a team with a mix of high and low ping, and playing against a team that is also a mix. Having their entire team lag versus a lag-free team ruins their timing just as much. And like I said, your statement that "EU players are consistently playing with lag" is just not true.
my internet is being pretty spotty so i can't actually run the numbers at the moment, but i'm willing to bet that the average ladder games played among the active EU teams is pretty high. internet permitting, i will have something here (or there) in the future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyrd View Post
The actual world cup is on the internet? Where there's no hour-long flights required to switch locations, only a few mouse clicks? Please don't try to make an inept analogy.
like i've said, i don't really care that you're arguing this point. i'd just prefer that you don't use the name of the league as a crutch to support your argument.

from my point of view, skyleague has already done plenty to accomodate EU players. best coast US players have to show up to skyleague games at 11:00 AM and sometimes earlier with prelims on sundays when many of them have to go to church. if we do end up with designated games played on EU servers, i'd like to request a time for those games that is more fair for US players.
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  #7  
Old 01-06-2011, 11:21 PM
Ajuk999 Ajuk999 is offline
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+1 to all of what SSD said. I might type an essay later...


Especially about the times of the matches, for those of us who live on the worst coast/west coast (see what I did there) in order to make matches we would have to wake up at ridiculous times. I can't even commit to SL3 because the times are so darn early.


EDIT:



Would it be very practical if a US team joined a EU league and whined about playing on EU servers?

What do you expect a US league to do? To cater to US or EU teams and players? OF course they are going to build the league around what works best for US teams from servers to times. US leagues priority is US and likewise with EU leagues don't you think?

EDIT2: I think it's an All World Cup if teams from all over the world are playing in it. It's actually an invite to EU teams and it shows how kind us Americans are whereas a EU league was made without any acknowledging of US teams AFAIK.

If the name is changed to "The 3rd Sky League American Ball Cup" then EU teams should have nothing to do with it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you want the name of the league to be changed (silly) but you would still like to be involved in it right?

EDIT3: Weren't the games in which {arr} won SL1 played on US servers? I know they were supposed to. IF so, why should they effect you guys now? Like your loss against AH?

Last edited by Ajuk999; 01-06-2011 at 11:45 PM.
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  #8  
Old 01-06-2011, 11:46 PM
Ajuk999 Ajuk999 is offline
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Also Wyrd, the same type of attitude you created this thread with is the same type you'll get back until a mod eventually closes the thread.

Last edited by Ajuk999; 01-07-2011 at 01:05 AM.
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  #9  
Old 01-06-2011, 11:58 PM
Hoss Delgado Hoss Delgado is offline
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this is why i say someone should make servers in Greenland...
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  #10  
Old 01-07-2011, 12:01 AM
rojo rojo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajuk999 View Post
Also Wyrd, the same type of attitude you created this thread with is the same type you'll get back until a mode eventually closes the thread.
I was going to respond to some of your points, then I realized that its totally useless. Oh, and before you respond with saying tVo/// der whatever: http://tinyurl.com/39x5w6


SSD & Wyrd- I agree with both of you on points. Yes, EU players have more 'practice' playing with lag so they would have an 'advantage' of dealing with lag, but consider how silly that statement is. I, for one, wouldn't have a problem playing on EU servers or splitting series between teams. That's because I simply don't give a ****.
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  #11  
Old 01-07-2011, 12:08 AM
Ajuk999 Ajuk999 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rojo View Post
I was going to respond to some of your points, then I realized that its totally useless. Oh, and before you respond with saying tVo/// der whatever: http://tinyurl.com/39x5w6


SSD & Wyrd- I agree with both of you on points. Yes, EU players have more 'practice' playing with lag so they would have an 'advantage' of dealing with lag, but consider how silly that statement is. I, for one, wouldn't have a problem playing on EU servers or splitting series between teams. That's because I simply don't give a ****.
Oh rojo you scare me. It's useless? Perhaps if you know calling names doesn't work. Oh and rojo, last time I checked we were talking about US and EU, not rojo. In other words, it doesn't really make a difference if you are okay with it.
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  #12  
Old 01-07-2011, 12:20 AM
sunshineduck sunshineduck is offline
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I don't really care either way, I'm merely pointing out the fallacy of asking for "equal" treatment when in actuality you are asking for preferential treatment.
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  #13  
Old 01-07-2011, 12:24 AM
mlopes mlopes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajuk999 View Post
+1 to all of what SSD said. I might type an essay later...


Especially about the times of the matches, for those of us who live on the worst coast/west coast (see what I did there) in order to make matches we would have to wake up at ridiculous times. I can't even commit to SL3 because the times are so darn early.


EDIT:



Would it be very practical if a US team joined a EU league and whined about playing on EU servers?

What do you expect a US league to do? To cater to US or EU teams and players? OF course they are going to build the league around what works best for US teams from servers to times. US leagues priority is US and likewise with EU leagues don't you think?

EDIT2: I think it's an All World Cup if teams from all over the world are playing in it. It's actually an invite to EU teams and it shows how kind us Americans are whereas a EU league was made without any acknowledging of US teams AFAIK.

If the name is changed to "The 3rd Sky League American Ball Cup" then EU teams should have nothing to do with it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you want the name of the league to be changed (silly) but you would still like to be involved in it right?

EDIT3: Weren't the games in which {arr} won SL1 played on US servers? I know they were supposed to. IF so, why should they effect you guys now? Like your loss against AH?
Did you even read what wyrd wrote or you just started making noise to avoid
playing on EU servers? None of the things you speak are refered by wyrd on his post. HE complains about the ping, not about the time, and the fact that the league assumes itself as World, not US.
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  #14  
Old 01-07-2011, 12:31 AM
Ajuk999 Ajuk999 is offline
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Of course I don't want to play on EU servers! He doesn't want to play on US servers either though! That's what I'm arguing against.

Did you read my post?
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Old 01-07-2011, 12:31 AM
sunshineduck sunshineduck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlopes View Post
Did you even read what wyrd wrote or you just started making noise to avoid
playing on EU servers? None of the things you speak are refered by wyrd on his post. HE complains about the ping, not about the time, and the fact that the league assumes itself as World, not US.
he was responding to my post when talking about the time of the games, and he actually does have a point in regards to this tournament being open to the world as opposed to a US-only tournament. it's pretty impossible to balance it perfectly in regards to timeslot/ping considering that the perfect time for US-based players (early evening) is well past midnight in most euro countries. i feel that the fact that we are in a terrible time slot is compensated by the fact that we don't have to play at 120+ ping, and forcing both upon us isn't quite equal. this is why i suggested that the US gets a preferable time slot if we do have a euro server-based tourney or matches in SL3.

Last edited by sunshineduck; 01-07-2011 at 12:36 AM.
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  #16  
Old 01-07-2011, 12:53 AM
Goose Goose is offline
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Since ball matches are conducted as 6v6, i propose that in Skyleague 4 every team is required to have at least 3 US players and 3 Euro players playing for their team during each match. This way the lag is evenly distributed for each team and the tourney is as fair and balanced as possible.
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  #17  
Old 01-07-2011, 12:54 AM
Wyrd Wyrd is offline
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EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajuk999 View Post
Also Wyrd, the same type of attitude you created this thread with is the same type you'll get back until a mode eventually closes the thread.
A politely worded request? I can't believe this thread has not been locked already!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajuk999 View Post
Of course I don't want to play on EU servers! He doesn't want to play on US servers either though! That's what I'm arguing against.

Did you read my post?
No, I want to play on both. Did you read my post?

EDIT2:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajuk999
Would it be very practical if a US team joined a EU league and whined about playing on EU servers?

What do you expect a US league to do?
So it is a US league? Thanks. I wouldn't complain about lag if I joined a US league. But SL calls itself a world league.

EU cup did not invite US teams (I think, I cannot speak for Dougie with certainty) because he did not want them to have to deal with the lag, and because he wanted to keep his first tourney small. He said something along the lines of it being fine for tvo to field a team with US players if they really wanted/needed to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajuk999
If the name is changed to "The 3rd Sky League American Ball Cup" then EU teams should have nothing to do with it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you want the name of the league to be changed (silly) but you would still like to be involved in it right?

EDIT3: Weren't the games in which {arr} won SL1 played on US servers? I know they were supposed to. IF so, why should they effect you guys now? Like your loss against AH?
Yes, I think the name should be changed, you read that correctly. I guess just dropping the world bit would be better than adding American, since that does somewhat indicate no EU involvement, you have a point there.

We have gotten several players since SL1 whose ping is way in the red on US servers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunshineduck
i can say with confidence that not one of our members plays on EU servers consistently and typically not at all unless it is absolutely unavoidable while still playing Altitude, and playing on an EU server would bork our timing substantially.
And I'm saying the same is true for many/most(?) European players, and that all our timings should be borked in turn, and neither get preferential lag-treatment.

Regarding the inconvenient time slots, I'll grant you that those can suck. Don't have a good idea how to solve that. Maybe games start a bit later and fewer of them in a day?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goose View Post
Since ball matches are conducted as 6v6, i propose that in Skyleague 4 every team is required to have at least 3 US players and 3 Euro players playing for their team during each match. This way the lag is evenly distributed for each team and the tourney is as fair and balanced as possible.
But this means we'll have to recruit Americans, and they keep leaving the clan to found their own...

Last edited by Wyrd; 01-07-2011 at 01:21 AM. Reason: Done editing now...
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Old 01-07-2011, 01:03 AM
MajorPayne257 MajorPayne257 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goose View Post
Since ball matches are conducted as 6v6, i propose that in Skyleague 4 every team is required to have at least 3 US players and 3 Euro players playing for their team during each match. This way the lag is evenly distributed for each team and the tourney is as fair and balanced as possible.
Absolutely not. I like the effort though.
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Old 01-07-2011, 02:50 AM
drunkguava drunkguava is offline
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Lag blows. When we scrimmed arr the week before SL3.1, we got manhandled the first couple games because we were not used to playing with that lag as a team. I play on the arr servers a decent amount, but I never really play much with my {ball} team. We got better at it and played arr a lot closer the next few games, but there is an obvious disadvantage when most/all of your players have orange/red pings (considering the result on US servers during SL3.1).

At the same time, Euro players definitely have a lot more practice playing with high pings than US players, that is not debatable. With dojo and ladder servers in the US that's a fact. However, Euro players don't play as a team (or even with so many other orange/red pings) very often at all.

So while I do think that Euros have some advantage playing with high ping, I don't actually know how great it is because they rarely if ever play as a team on US servers. I don't know dougie's home/away rules, and I'm too lazy too look them up (or scroll up to reread your post to see if you mentioned them), but I think I'd be ok with doing a US-EU-US split in bo3s and US-EU-US-EU-US in bo5s. I think this would be a good compromise.

Last edited by drunkguava; 01-07-2011 at 03:04 AM.
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  #20  
Old 01-07-2011, 02:56 AM
Mortva Mortva is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunshineduck View Post
please don't try to argue the semantics of it being a "world" cup. the actual world cup is played in one country and one country alone every four years, and not every country participating in the cup gets a chance to host it.
Well, teams have to move their butts to the host country but then they play under equal conditions. AFAIR I've seen neither the US nor Germany's team lag when they played in Africa, nor anywhere else.

---

However, the tone of some of the above postings suggests that some of you might have the impression that we were just whining about lag and how badly we were treated etc. Yet that is not the case, respectively not the intention of the OP. Let's please try (and I'm not looking at anyone specifically) to keep this debate open-minded.

---

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by drunkguava
However, Euro players don't play as a team (or even with so many other orange/red pings) very often at all.
That's an interesting point because IMO playing with a non-lagging team while oneself (as a single player) is lagging seems not as bad as playing with the whole team lagging like hell.

Last edited by Mortva; 01-07-2011 at 03:00 AM.
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Old 01-07-2011, 03:03 AM
drunkguava drunkguava is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortva View Post
That's an interesting point because IMO playing with a non-lagging team while oneself (as a single player) is lagging seems not as bad as playing with the whole team lagging like hell.
that's my point . That's why I'd be willing to compromise.

Edited original post to make it more clear that that's what I was trying to say.
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  #22  
Old 01-07-2011, 03:04 AM
elxir elxir is offline
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{ball} lost two scrims to {arr} on euro servers

{arr} lost to {ball} on USA servers

lol lag amirite
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  #23  
Old 01-07-2011, 03:16 AM
Mortva Mortva is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elxir View Post
{ball} lost two scrims to {arr} on euro servers

{arr} lost to {ball} on USA servers

lol lag amirite
On that evening, {ball} played better than us anyway, no matter what the ping. The latter made it only very much worse.
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  #24  
Old 01-07-2011, 03:32 AM
Ajuk999 Ajuk999 is offline
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AH lost to {arr} on our worst map and on their server, not by far, but we did. If it was a different map we would've won. So I can understand how they feel about us winning on US servers and them winning on EU servers.
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  #25  
Old 01-07-2011, 03:42 AM
banana banana is offline
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Lag is a double edged sword. Use its advantages and they should help mitigate the disadvantages.


If everyone is still raging just hold a tournament held on US servers. Next season hold it on EU servers.
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  #26  
Old 01-07-2011, 03:44 AM
sunshineduck sunshineduck is offline
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i think since this sky league is all about individual tournaments that we should just have a couple all EU server tournaments if we're gonna compromise.

the biggest issue with using EU servers is that the =AIR= and {arr} server administrators are numerous and that none of the skyleague admins to my knowledge have admin powers in these servers. this will definitely be problematic as far as crowd control and general admin powers go.
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Old 01-07-2011, 03:50 AM
CCN CCN is offline
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If this is peoples biggest complaints over skyleague then I think its doing a great job.
Honestly I chose the name to be a bit of fun, and naming conventions (ergo. miss world, World Series of Baseball) arn't strictly literal.

Please take it in such a sense. If you can't, take it in the sense that Skyleague is a ball tourney with players and teams from all over the world.

The high level game has been developed and played on US servers, with people playing on US timings for a long time now. The kind of move to a split server set is a big one, and one that I feel is disruptive as no team can get into a rhythm with their team members ping on a week to week basis.


However, on its 3rd season I have become a bit attached to the name.

Last edited by CCN; 01-07-2011 at 04:01 AM.
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  #28  
Old 01-07-2011, 05:07 AM
Tekn0 Tekn0 is offline
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People often make it (not pointing to anyone here) that only the person who is lagging has an advantage but it is not so. I've been playing for the last 3 months from Asia with pretty high pings (200-300) and many times you cannot pick up the ball, you score a goal it hits the inside of the goal and bounces and an opponent simply picks it up and throws it like it never went in and you can no longer receive or send passes with accuracy. Last minute Randa goal steals no longer work, And NO, you do NOT get used to it after time, it is STILL a pain when such things happens, what you get used to is handling the bounce off walls and collecting the ball which is out of sync with the screen to a certain degree.

The plane that I find the most difficult to lag is Randa (not just TA) because I rely on bursts of speed with frantic fast wall bounce passes etc. No other plane needs lower pings like a Randa. I've played the loopy, biplane, and exploded and definitely "easier" (comparitively) with higher pings. But with Randa, even after months of playing I still miss some bounce pickups compared to when I had 20-30 pings. Randa being the fastest ball mover definitely needs lower pings.

Again I'm not accusing anyone in particular at all, but many times people think the person who is lagging has a huge advantage which isn't true.

The worst part is whenever you -do- something like a score a goal people immediately look at your ping and shout "hey nice ping, lagger" even though it wasn't clearly a ping spike. This is probably the most irritating aspect of lagging. I can't wait to get back to my 30-ish pings in EU servers.

Again I'm just venting some frustration from playing in pubs and the distant intertoob connects.

End rant :P

Last edited by Tekn0; 01-07-2011 at 05:12 AM.
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  #29  
Old 01-07-2011, 11:04 AM
beefheart beefheart is offline
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FACT1: US-based teams currently have an advantage over EU-based teams

FACT2: Fact 1 is due to US based teams play with less lag.

FACT3: To say, like SSD, that threating teams equal, is actually not threating teams equal is logically wrong.

Fact 4: guava's compromis of playing us-eu-us (bo3) or us-eu-us-eu-us (bo5) will not threat clans equal.

Solution: Arrange the tourney according to home-away rules.

US teams will have to get used to not be threated preferential, this is called adaptation. Adaption can be reached by more often scrim eu teams on eu servers, so you get used to playing with lag like the europeans do (guava is right that its about team experience with lag, not individual lag). This takes time, so start with it in SL4.

Yours sincerly,

Beefy
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  #30  
Old 01-07-2011, 11:46 AM
sunshineduck sunshineduck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beefheart View Post
FACT1: US-based teams currently have an advantage over EU-based teams

FACT2: Fact 1 is due to US based teams play with less lag.

FACT3: To say, like SSD, that threating teams equal, is actually not threating teams equal is logically wrong.

Fact 4: guava's compromis of playing us-eu-us (bo3) or us-eu-us-eu-us (bo5) will not threat clans equal.

Solution: Arrange the tourney according to home-away rules.

US teams will have to get used to not be threated preferential, this is called adaptation. Adaption can be reached by more often scrim eu teams on eu servers, so you get used to playing with lag like the europeans do (guava is right that its about team experience with lag, not individual lag). This takes time, so start with it in SL4.

Yours sincerly,

Beefy
I don't think fact means what you think it means.

as pointed out earlier in this thread, the fact that US teams have a godawful time slot is a huge disadvantage that is balanced by the fact that we get to play on US servers. forcing us to play at a crappy time while euro players play in early evening along with playing with 30 ping is extremely unfair.

you have to understand that from my point of view this thread is nothing but stupid lagwhine. you signed up your team under the rules written far in advance of the first tournament games played. you had no such objections prior to losing in the first round to a team you felt bested you only because of ping, and all of a sudden the US teams have an unfair advantage. you agreed to playing on US servers unless both teams agreed otherwise when you signed your team up to play, suck it up or don't sign up for future tournaments imo.
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  #31  
Old 01-07-2011, 12:00 PM
mlopes mlopes is offline
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About 90% or more of the scrims =AIR= ever played were in EU servers, and we scrim a lot.

nuff said about euro clans being used to play on US servers.

PS: I played on dojo 1 time (and I play altitude for 1 year and almost 3 months) and that was because krawz told me that the only way I had to check if one of his maps was the last version was to compare it to the dojo version.
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  #32  
Old 01-07-2011, 12:02 PM
mlopes mlopes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CCN View Post
If this is peoples biggest complaints over skyleague then I think its doing a great job.
And that's your conclusion from this thread... that's really perceptive, you should be a police detective.
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  #33  
Old 01-07-2011, 12:08 PM
Premier Stalin Premier Stalin is offline
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Jeez how about you create ur own league then. Oh wait.

I dont see why this is a massive problem, lag works both ways.

CCN&co. bothered to make the tourney, I'd just stop complaining.
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  #34  
Old 01-07-2011, 12:12 PM
beefheart beefheart is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunshineduck View Post
US teams have a godawful time slot is a huge disadvantage that is balanced by the fact that we get to play on US servers.
So far US teams has had no problems what so ever to come up with approximately their strongest teams at current times. So that argument does not stand imo.

EDIT:

@ stalin: It is just a suggestion to make the tourney more fair, i would not call it complaining. And ssd ofcourse its lag whining for Americans, for you guys its fine the way it is.

Last edited by beefheart; 01-07-2011 at 12:16 PM.
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  #35  
Old 01-07-2011, 12:15 PM
mlopes mlopes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Premier Stalin View Post
Jeez how about you create ur own league then. Oh wait.

I dont see why this is a massive problem, lag works both ways.

CCN&co. bothered to make the tourney, I'd just stop complaining.
If it works both ways why so much resistance about playing a few games on non-US servers?
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  #36  
Old 01-07-2011, 12:19 PM
Goose Goose is offline
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There is no solution that can be implemented this season in Skyleague 3 to accommodate both teams equally and fairly, as stuff like this takes time to develop and the first tournament has already been conducted. As a former player of a European based ball clan i can sympathize with both sides of the argument, however i think the rule set in place now in which teams can agree to play their matches on a EU based server is still the best solution at the moment. Guava brings up an interesting idea, but there is no way to rationally implement that sort of thing right now with the limited servers at our disposal, as well as the admin problems which would clearly occur that SSD mentioned.

With the recent success of Dougie's 1st EuroCup Ball League, i believe for the future we could divide the entire Altitude ball community into 2 separate sections:
-European based clans which only compete in Dougie's 2nd EuroCup Ball League

and

- US based clans which only compete in SkyLeague 4

Then we take the winner of each tournament and have them face off in a B05 or B07 Championship Duel, that rotates between EU and US servers.
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  #37  
Old 01-07-2011, 12:27 PM
sunshineduck sunshineduck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beefheart View Post
So far US teams has had no problems what so ever to come up with approximately their strongest teams at current times. So that argument does not stand imo.
this is certainly not true, at least not for twisted.

we barely managed to field a team of 6 for our first round freebie against cyber ballers (no disrespect intended, they're great guys who showed up en masse and graciously sat one when one of our players kept dropping) and had the games been an hour earlier, i'm almost certain that we would have had to forfeit. we had members absent for reasons related entirely to the crappy time slot (several were asleep, one was at church) that would have shown up had the games been early evening for us. i don't see how you can say that waking up at 9:00 AM to play in 10:00 scrims without warmup games is not a disadvantage.

you claim you want a "fair" compromise, but you completely ignore the fact that alternating servers between US and EU players heavily favors the EU unless the time slots are changed. i don't care about having to play with lag, but i'm for damn sure not waking up early on a sunday and skipping church so you can play without lag.
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  #38  
Old 01-07-2011, 12:29 PM
Dougie Dougie is offline
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EU teams have had to deal with the lag problem throughout the sky league history. I have previously voiced my opinions on this, and was pointed out that the US servers are central for all players. Asians and south Americans get better ping rates in US servers than they do on the EU servers.

I don't see a reason to change this setup in sky league (well certainly not in this season anyway). The US servers are better catered for the community as a whole. I'm not certain splitting games US-EU-US would work, as each match becomes more of a mission having to change servers all the time. A home and away system could work, but in a knockout cup tournament, its difficult to allow a balance of all teams having an equal number of home and away matches.

Lag offers very little advantage, its only when you spike, you can cause serious problems, which can happen to either team. Lag however effects reactive times, and seriously effects timing of passes. It is something I have learnt to adjust to, although it is overall still a disadvantage.

On a side note, I am looking into the possibility for expanding the EABL with an AABL (American Altitude Ball League) running alongside it with the winners facing each other in a two leg match to be played in both the US and EU. I will be looking to speak to a few people about it to decide on the best format over the coming couple of months.
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  #39  
Old 01-07-2011, 12:33 PM
Dougie Dougie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goose View Post
There is no solution that can be implemented this season in Skyleague 3 to accommodate both teams equally and fairly, as stuff like this takes time to develop and the first tournament has already been conducted. As a former player of a European based ball clan i can sympathize with both sides of the argument, however i think the rule set in place now in which teams can agree to play their matches on a EU based server is still the best solution at the moment. Guava brings up an interesting idea, but there is no way to rationally implement that sort of thing right now with the limited servers at our disposal, as well as the admin problems which would clearly occur that SSD mentioned.

With the recent success of Dougie's 1st EuroCup Ball League, i believe for the future we could divide the entire Altitude ball community into 2 separate sections:
-European based clans which only compete in Dougie's 2nd EuroCup Ball League

and

- US based clans which only compete in SkyLeague 4

Then we take the winner of each tournament and have them face off in a B05 or B07 Championship Duel, that rotates between EU and US servers.
Really like this proposal...

+1

BUT there is an obvious disadvantage, that a few clans have a good mixture of both EU and US players (tvo and ball).
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  #40  
Old 01-07-2011, 12:37 PM
mlopes mlopes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dougie View Post
On a side note, I am looking into the possibility for expanding the EABL with an AABL (American Altitude Ball League) running alongside it with the winners facing each other in a two leg match to be played in both the US and EU. I will be looking to speak to a few people about it to decide on the best format over the coming couple of months.
Love the idea, and judging from the 1st EABL, it has all the conditions to go well. Looking forward for it.
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