Pre APL balance discussion

[Evan20000]

Just posting my thoughts on the red perks as things currently stand.

Tracker: Playable, but somewhat situational. Usually outclassed by DF, but can be effective in some rolls.

DF: Fine as it is.

Acid: Fine as it is.

Suppressor: Lets face it, bombers are powerful in this game. Some people are crying for a nerf in ladder lobbies, but I think the plane is okay as it is right now. The amount of power it has makes it possible to push through multiple explodets at a time, thus greatly shortening games.

Dumb Bombs: Buffchars.

Flak: I really hate the "push" effect of the anus cannon, but it is something I can live with. Fine as it is.

Director: Viable, but feels outclassed by Thermo and Remote. I don't necessarily want it buffed, just changed so it can do things the others can't.

Thermo: Making good players crash like nubs for a few years now. Fine as it is.

Remote: Fine as it is.

Dogfighter: I've already layed down my thoughts on recoilless in the other thread and dogfighter has the same issues imo. No more weapon buffs, but it could use something to aid getting close enough to use said weapons.

Recoilless: See dogfighter.

HC: Certainly viable right now, but it is lacking close combat or getaway options that it's rival plane (The trick) has. I suppose that this is compensated with a more powerful (Can fire 2 really strong shots together) weapon than the trickster.

Trick: The bounce damage feels a bit high, but a lot of people wanted it. Fine as it is.

Laser: I really dislike the current shield/laser interaction given that firing into a shield with all the other planes = instant death, but laser somehow gets a free pass. This coupled with an obscenely powerful weapon irks me. Outside of that, that plane is fine imo.

TA: After being beaten senseless with the nerf bat over the past year and a half, this plane is fine now.

[elxir]

what if biplanes D function took zero energy but did less damage...would allow biplane to afterburn into enemies and shoot them, and run away

lol that's a stretch

EDIT: does not apply to heavy cannon

[Evan20000]

I think that would at least be worth testing O_O Even if it didn't work out it would make for an entertaining weekend, to say the least.

[[Y]]

Is it just me or do the dogfighter/recoilless variants feel like they have better turning than HC?

[elxir]

or not like zero energy, but perhaps the same amount that rev thrust takes

[elxir]

Originally Posted by [Y]

Is it just me or do the dogfighter/recoilless variants feel like they have better turning than HC?

if they don't, they should

[Evan20000]

Originally Posted by [Y]

Is it just me or do the dogfighter/recoilless variants feel like they have better turning than HC?

I'm pretty sure they do. That was one of the many buffs they have recieved iirc.

[[Y]]

Also, the HC shot disappears just beyond your screen (less than trickster I believe), meaning it's not really that long-range of a weapon. Confirm/Deny?

Originally Posted by Evan20000

I'm pretty sure they do. That was one of the many buffs they have recieved iirc.

...

Give HC the same amount of turning please.

[Evan20000]

It disappears a little bit past the screen. Still very capable of offscreen shots, but they have to be very close to the edge of your screen for it to work.

[elxir]

HC doesn't need any help...

[Evan20000]

Originally Posted by elxir

HC doesn't need any help...

Agreed. I generally meant recoil/dogfighter when I said bip needs a little help.

[elxir]

Agreedchars

[[Y]]

I suggest more afterburner efficiency + energy cost buffs.

For all variants.

edit: Good thing there are no useless, unfunny posts in the super cereal balance discussion thread.

edit2: nou

[elxir]

only if trickster can shoot two shots at the same time

edit: good thing FU is bad

[CCN]

Originally Posted by elxir

only if trickster can shoot two shots at the same time

edit: good thing FU is bad

df absolutely crushes acid, much better/more useful but they are both fine as is, lol.

[sunshineduck]

you can't cancel a laser though. every other weapon in the game can avoid getting pwned by shields by just not shooting into them, but since the laser is completely committed to using the full time of the laser as soon as he releases it it would be a really unfair disadvantage. having lasers reflect back would make a powerup the hard counter to a a plane. not sure that's a good thing.

[lemon]

Originally Posted by sunshineduck

you can't cancel a laser though. every other weapon in the game can avoid getting pwned by shields by just not shooting into them, but since the laser is completely committed to using the full time of the laser as soon as he releases it it would be a really unfair disadvantage. having lasers reflect back would make a powerup the hard counter to a a plane. not sure that's a good thing.

People keep saying this but it doesn't make any sense. When you're flying any plane except lazer and shooting at someone and they put a shield up, you die. Yes you can stop shooting but theres already shots in the air and you cant take those back, so you just die, its that simple. As of right now shield already "counters" ALL of the planes except lazer. Some to bigger degree, some to smaller, but somehow lazer is the only perk completely unnafected by shields.

[Evan20000]

Originally Posted by sunshineduck

you can't cancel a laser though. every other weapon in the game can avoid getting pwned by shields by just not shooting into them, but since the laser is completely committed to using the full time of the laser as soon as he releases it it would be a really unfair disadvantage. having lasers reflect back would make a powerup the hard counter to a a plane. not sure that's a good thing.

You can reverse, but that isn't always feasible. And while a laser is "trapped", other planes simply die if they fire. While this would make shield MUCH more effective against laser than it is against a lot of planes, this change would reward good prediction over mindless charging in because you know you can't be hurt. Also, a lot of the time a laser player can just fly through the shield and let the end of the beam damage the shield user.

[sunshineduck]

i was under the impression that the shield absorbed the tip of the laser and kept going down the shaft (like you're having sex with it) as you flew through it, is that not true? o_O

EDIT: oh, i see what you mean. that really only works against players that aren't shooting you as you fly through the shield though, and is not really feasible if you enjoy living through it.

lemon, if you're a bomber/loopy/biplane and you spam over a choke and it's reflected by a shield, you have plenty of room to maneuver away from your deflected projectiles before they hit you. the explodet has the awesome power to actually stall people by exploding their missile/remote mine in front of the shield. if we're talking strictly within the range of a laser (which, mind you, is the only real weapon laser has), then it's still extremely unfair. if you're literally any plane but miranda, you have that split second where you can let go of the f key and stop releasing self-damaging projectiles if you have the reflexes. with laser, there's no room for skill involved. if you laser and it reflects, you are dead. as far as i know, there isn't a plane that can kill itself in the time it takes me to realize that i'm shooting into a shield and stop shooting.

EDIT2: also, i always remembered that biplane/trickster/explodet shots as well as emp/acid/flak were the only shots that returned at the same speed and direction they came from when reflected off a shield. loopy missiles spread farther out so they're not nearly as damaging as one would suppose, and bomber nades and mines just get deflected slowly. i don't think any of those but trickster really instakill you in the time that it takes to realize there's a shield and you should stop shooting. if you're flying HC and fire two rapid shots at someone in shield distance, you're playing stupidly as you should just f then d them when they're close.

[lemon]

Originally Posted by sunshineduck

i was under the impression that the shield absorbed the tip of the laser and kept going down the shaft (like you're having sex with it) as you flew through it, is that not true? o_O

EDIT: oh, i see what you mean. that really only works against players that aren't shooting you as you fly through the shield though, and is not really feasible if you enjoy living through it.

lemon, if you're a bomber/loopy/biplane and you spam over a choke and it's reflected by a shield, you have plenty of room to maneuver away from your deflected projectiles before they hit you. the explodet has the awesome power to actually stall people by exploding their missile/remote mine in front of the shield. if we're talking strictly within the range of a laser (which, mind you, is the only real weapon laser has), then it's still extremely unfair. if you're literally any plane but miranda, you have that split second where you can let go of the f key and stop releasing self-damaging projectiles if you have the reflexes. with laser, there's no room for skill involved. if you laser and it reflects, you are dead. as far as i know, there isn't a plane that can kill itself in the time it takes me to realize that i'm shooting into a shield and stop shooting.

Why would you auto die when you get lazer reflected? It takes a bit less than a second for lazer to kill a randa, so it should be perfectly manageable to hit D in that time no?

[sunshineduck]

Originally Posted by lemon

Why would you auto die when you get lazer reflected? It takes a bit less than a second for lazer to kill a randa, so it should be perfectly manageable to hit D in that time no?

if you always have full energy (minus cost for the charge) when engaging any enemy that potentially has a shield and they never shoot at you while holding a shield, then it's very plausible that you escape from that situation, sure. however, i find that situation to be very rare. as it is, i find it very hard to engage pretty much every plane in this game directly head-on regardless of whether or not they have a shield. i think the majority of laser kills are from flanking from top/bottom/behind, and that adding a shield reflect would make engaging head-on an impossibility rather than an irregularity.

[Stormich]

I'd like biplane to be immune to EMP and have REALLY fast stall recall in every setup, not just dogfighter. That way you just might pass all the explodets and emps everywhere

[trendy11one]

Biplane fine. Since biplane still can shoot down planes from distance, with each perk. Ofc mindless f+d cant help to kill every plane.

About lazer, if u shoot 3 or 4 nades before enemy use his shield, according to ur and his momentum, u will probably take all damage, because u just flight into converted nades layed on shield. If u try to dodge it, he can simply move to same direction. Lazer doesnt kill instantly, so yes, u can simply stop aiming shield to stop taking damage.

[Boko]

Suggested buff for biplanes: MOAR SPEED

Makes them able to get in and out even FASTER

Compensate HC by taking off some of the dmg slightly or some of the pierce.

[Tosconi]

imo - make the radius, when mines react to a bypassing planes bigger, so that the stable mines can be harder avoided => will make director a good option for a thermo whale.

[[Y]]

Originally Posted by [Y]

I suggest more afterburner efficiency + energy cost buffs.

Yeah, needs more speed to get closer + make it more viable as a bomb runner.

Atm non-remote mines are extremely easy to dodge. Maybe make director's mine fly faster once it's begun tracking?

[elxir]

Originally Posted by Tosconi

imo - make the radius, when mines react to a bypassing planes bigger, so that the stable mines can be harder avoided => will make director a good option for a thermo whale.

this isn't a bad idea

[Smushface]

Originally Posted by Evan20000

You can reverse, but that isn't always feasible. And while a laser is "trapped", other planes simply die if they fire. While this would make shield MUCH more effective against laser than it is against a lot of planes, this change would reward good prediction over mindless charging in because you know you can't be hurt. Also, a lot of the time a laser player can just fly through the shield and let the end of the beam damage the shield user.

You can do the same thing with any other plane aka wait until you're within the shield to do damage.

I actually thought about it and I don't really care that much if lazer gets affected by shield. Assuming standard altitude physics, lazer would only be reflected back to its originator only if the lazer was attacking the shield head on. And like every other miranda, that rarely happens.

On that note, its not like shields rape tricksters. Really only wrecks non-remote xplo mines and loopies. Every other plane can beat a shield if you do it correctly.

edit: also, if shields did affect lazers, the lazer would also have to be in <50% range to get damaged.

[dr. carbon]

I think dumb bombs should have a slight curve. Would greatly solve the aiming difficulty and give it more use.