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#1
07-09-2009, 08:23 PM
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Patch: july 9th, new game modes, balance adjustments, bug fixes
Please try out the new game mode and let me know what you think. I have no idea whether it will be any fun with real players, but hopefully it'll help guide future game modes even if it doesn't work out
 ================================================== =============== July 9th, 2009 new game mode Objective (obj_*) -- one life per round, attackers plant the bomb, defenders protect their bases and defuse the bomb testing: you can now see the powerups your allies are holding added spawn effect to help identify your plane added difficulty selection for tutorial missions added "Bind IP" field to Server Configurator UI ("ip" in launcher_config.xml) for manual IP selection on servers with multiple NICs (defaults to <Auto Select>) added "Spawn at Round Start" attribute to PowerupSpawners in map editor Biplane: "Heavy Cannon" - secondary is now a reduced range version of dogfighter's primary weapon "Heavy Cannon" - reduced range by 9% Long Range Gun - reduced range by 9% Miranda: Charge Shot - reduced max bounces from 4 to 2 Charge Shot - reduced range by 5% "Reverse Thrust" - loses 60% effectiveness (but is no longer disabled) while EMP'd fixed a bug that could sometimes cause the big bomb to disappear when picked up by a plane moments before that plane is destroyed fixed a bug that caused the "recently played with" list under "add friend" to stop updating fixed a few miscellaneous bugs 
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#2
07-09-2009, 08:26 PM
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Gotta try it out tho. Where can we play the new game mode, by the way ? Is there already some maps on the official servers with that game mode ?
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#3
07-09-2009, 08:58 PM
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So first impressions of the new game mode:
*I liked how it played and thought that the rounds were sufficiently fast enough as to not be annoying to have to wait for the next round to start if you die early. *However, most players were confused as to how everything worked. With a constant influx of new players it seems there should be some explanation of how the mechanics of the game mode works so they aren't constantly asking what's going on. *I think that the teams should switch sides each round so that you play alternating rounds as attackers and defenders. *There should be some indication for both teams that the bomb has been planted. I was on defense and lost the game because I didn't even know I should have been trying to defuse. If there already is an indication, it wasn't big enough for me to notice. *I didn't notice if there was a notification when you were spawning as to whether you were the attackers or the defenders, but I think there should be a big graphic so no one is confused as to what their goal is in that round. *Planes should still drop health when they die. I know the rounds are short, but since this mode can also be used for TDM it just seems you are giving more emphasis to repair drone. If you kill a plane in this mode you should still have the reward of gaining back some health to continue on. *I noticed a bug when I was playing that made my plane start turning at a constant but small rate. I think it was after I planted the bomb. I could not make my plane fly straight, it was constantly flying in a large arc pattern (downward) and when I tried to turn the other direction it made my plane fly in an opposite but equal arc (upward).
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#4
07-09-2009, 09:19 PM
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it opens up alot...
we can make maps that favor attackers and other maps that favor defenders and make it for competition 
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#5
07-09-2009, 09:23 PM
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When the bomb gets lost, there needs to be an indicator showing its location (preferably only for the attackers). Maybe we could imitate counter strike in this aspect. Do not show the bomb location to the defenders at all. Give a clear indication when the bomb gets planted.
Rounds could last longer. Maybe 1:00 or 1:30. Health should definitely drop. Right now the only viable option is repair.
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#7
07-09-2009, 09:49 PM
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Yeah, i feel like repair is a must-have in this mode.
Its really easy to grenade/bomb/everything spam in chokes if you see the bomb is near. Since there is only 1 life, this is much more important than in tbd. So I agree with game saying that defenders shouldnt see where the bomb is at all. Make rounds a little bit longer so you could have some better strategies, with waiting involved, like in CS.
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#8
07-09-2009, 10:05 PM
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- I really like the die-and-no-respawn part of it. Even if nothing else is kept from this mode, that was a lot of fun and really made you play differently. It also makes Loopy shine since 1v1 dogfights take on more importance.
- Maps need to be bigger or something. Right now it seems almost impossible to plant successfully without wiping out almost the entire other team first. When someone does rarely win by planting, they could have won just as easily by killing the toher team. - a lot of people wanted the defenders to be able to see where the bomb is. those people are dumb. - the attackers should have a bomb indicator when the bomb is dropped, however! - it'd be interesting to see a hp tweak on planes for this mode so planes last a little longer. not sure if that'd end up feeling horrible, but worth a try I think. - the bases are very confusing. I know this is just kind of a quick hack in without art, but it really is confusing now. especially since it's so deadly when the defenders try to land to heal. :P - agree that more frequent switch off of defender/attacker roles would be nice. - round time limit feels a little short. - heal seems too strong in this mode. - disagree that planes should drop health on death, but I'd love to see neutral heal runways or dedicated heal powerup spawn points. other feedback: - I actually like the new heavy cannon biplane. can't say much about the balance, but it makes it feel more distinct from the dogfighter, which is really nice. people are going to bitch like crazy, but I think it's the best kind of nerf possible - it really reinforces the intended role instead of just weakening its most powerful weapon. I'd consider even increasing the range a bit on the secondary, make it more of a midrange weapon. - spawn effects are nice - reduced bounces on charge shot makes it less random/chaotic, but that was part of the fun! t.t
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#9
07-09-2009, 10:17 PM
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I just noticed it now (in that case you can insult and don't consider me xD) or when you are EMPed now you can't use afterburner? O_O
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#10
07-09-2009, 10:46 PM
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you know, a combination of the CS bomb mode and headquarters from CoD4 might be kind of cool. IMAGINE THIS:
Defender team gets all the powerups spawn on their side, and they can land to heal. They get points for every second that goes by. This team ONLY does not respawn - only 1 life each round. Maybe extra hp tho? Attacking team can land on a base to plant the bomb. If they blow the **** up, they win. I think this would help address one of my issues with the current mode, which is that there's really almost no incentive to try to complete the objective. or maybe this could just be a different game mode in the future, I dunno.
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#11
07-09-2009, 10:49 PM
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a few more notes:
-In a mode like this (team deathmatch as well), the scoreboard needs a much more effective way of indicating how many people are dead. The red Xs are too small to see at a glance, especially in this kind of game where every split second counts. -I'd like the killcounts to last through a match, resetting only during mapchanges. As it is now, it serves no purpose to see a whole list of 2-0, 1-1, 0-1, and then having it wiped out the next game.
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#12
07-09-2009, 10:55 PM
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stuff on new game mode:
1- Teams should be swapping from attacks/defenders and you should be locked into your teams (no switching unless to balance). 2- Scores should persist until the game ends, not reset at the end of every round. 3- Rules need to be displayed or something. 4- I think health needs to drop from planes. All this mode does is make me want to slap repair drone on everything so I can play it. Alternative, there could be fixed heal powerup points. 5- Health powerups should probably be disabled otherwise (even better, set powerups should spawn at certain points and not be random). 6- 2-3 minute time limit IMO. 7- Should be able to land (even if it doesn't repair) on your own runway without taking damage/dying. 8- Bomb needs indicator when it's lost for attacking team. 9- Disable free look/chat when dead. 10- When bomb is being defused, a warning message should be displayed for attackers. 11- No bars should carry over. Promotes retarded attacker camping. Last edited by Blank; 07-10-2009 at 12:04 AM.
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#14
07-09-2009, 11:27 PM
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This is a fun new mode, thanks for implementing it! That being said, my thoughts for improvement are:
-More health powerups need to be scattered across the levels, and/or killed enemies drop health. -More maps would obviously be great, some larger too. Maybe increase the player limit and have more that 2 bases per map? (EDIT: I just played for a while on official #1, and I'm confused by the inclusion of the big bomb and the new plantable bomb. Why the inclusion of the former? The fact that they take time to spawn is both good and bad. On one hand, you need to wait and defend yourselves, but there's also the problem of being half out of time by the time the bomb spawns.) -Unlimited lives for attackers. Some games I played the defenders worked quickly and slaughtered the attackers, while other players had done nothing more than fly in circles for a few seconds. Keep defenders are 1 life, but with health dropped from the attackers, it could make the game longer (but then the clock will need increasing.) -On that note, how about a powerup for the attackers that extends the time limit by a set time (eg 30secs). Obviously this only benefits the attackers, but if you place it in an open and accessible area (like the big bomb on TBD_Core) then it's something else for the defenders to protect. Of course, that's only useful if the attackers have unlimited respawn, and it might be too hard for the defenders to last the extra time without allowing a base to be bombed. -Also, the new respawn animation is excellent, especially for the new mode where the team spawns simultaneously. Thanks, Jake. Last edited by Jayfourke; 07-09-2009 at 11:52 PM.
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#15
07-09-2009, 11:59 PM
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Thank God I dont use heavy canon biplane because its useless now...
The range of the secondary gun is too short. I mean, biplane's long range gun is the worst weapon in the whole game, was nerfing it really necessary? Poor heavy canon users.... Last edited by Vania; 07-10-2009 at 12:19 AM.
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#16
07-10-2009, 12:34 AM
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i respect that you guys are putting a lot of thought into gameplay, but if i had known that the heavy cannon gameplay would be changed this dramatically this far into development, i probably wouldn't have bought the game.
-moxie and yes, i would like some cheese with this whine.
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#17
07-10-2009, 12:40 AM
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New spawn effect is great. Are there new official OBJ maps, if so what are they?
Saw some errors after relaunching the server, does the xml file need to be updated with anything? Server still ran, seems to be working fine. Code:
INFO : Starting server on port 50001
ERROR : java.io.IOException: No handler for 73.
java.io.IOException: No handler for 73.
at CH.a(SourceFile:390)
at GW.a(SourceFile:18)
at CH.c(SourceFile:384)
at CH.d(SourceFile:328)
at CH.a(SourceFile:321)
at iG.b(SourceFile:223)
at iG.a(SourceFile:211)
at hr.run(SourceFile:149)
at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)
INFO : Changing map: tbd_lostcity
ERROR : java.io.IOException: No handler for 73.
java.io.IOException: No handler for 73.
at CH.a(SourceFile:390)
at GW.a(SourceFile:18)
at CH.c(SourceFile:384)
at CH.d(SourceFile:328)
at CH.a(SourceFile:321)
at iG.b(SourceFile:223)
at iG.a(SourceFile:211)
at hr.run(SourceFile:149)
at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)
ERROR : java.io.IOException: No handler for 73.
java.io.IOException: No handler for 73.
at CH.a(SourceFile:390)
at GW.a(SourceFile:18)
at CH.c(SourceFile:384)
at CH.d(SourceFile:328)
at CH.a(SourceFile:321)
at iG.b(SourceFile:223)
at iG.a(SourceFile:211)
at hr.run(SourceFile:149)
at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)
INFO : FPM: initializing bot on port 1
INFO : FPM: initializing bot on port 2
INFO : FPM: initializing bot on port 3
INFO : FPM: initializing bot on port 4
INFO : Starting 1 game servers
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#18
07-10-2009, 12:44 AM
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The problem with the heavy canon setup is, when would you use the the secondary weapon? If I have the option of firing a high damage piercing bullet and a weak ass one I'll always go with the strong one. The only advantage I see with the long range gun is that it uses less energy, but then you also need to land more shots to get a kill.
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#21
07-10-2009, 01:02 AM
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it just seems obvious to me that to nerf the heavy cannon's secondary is to concede the point that dogfighter's primary is close to useless*, so it's ridiculous to replace HC's useful burst secondary with a NERFED version of dogfighter's primary, the job of which. if you need to nerf heavy cannon, find away to nerf its primary, because the mid-range machinegun secondary is completely redundant if not useless.
-- *if you don't believe me, think about what percentage of your dogfighter/recoilless damage comes from secondary or primary+secondary used simultaneously. AT LEAST 75%. Last edited by ham; 07-10-2009 at 01:16 AM.
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#22
07-10-2009, 01:04 AM
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Thoughts on objective mode:
1. The rounds are a little bit too short. The attackers are under a lot of time pressure, and the defenders aren't under nearly as much. Adding about 10 seconds to round length shouldn't bee too bad, I think. 2. Can we keep the scores from all rounds until the end? Then the red/blue score can be displayed like 3-2 or 4-1 or whatever, and the cumulative score for all the players. 3. How about switching attack/defense every round? It would provide variety, and if the teams were kept the same, it would really help with balance testing. 4. I think players dropping health when they die can stop some of the repair drone madness. Maybe decrease the amount of health dropped? 5. I don't think landing on your own base should kill you that quickly. 6. Since this format really, really, really favors repair drone, people who bought the game will have a large advantage over demo users. Intentional? 7. It's cool that the bars transfer over, but it doesn't give you an opportunity to change planes. Would it be reasonable for people to lose their bars for changing planes? 8. Going back to time limit, how about having each map with it's own time limit? That way, large and small maps could both be played reasonably. Also, if a map has it's own time limit, then the map editers would tweak the times, and people could find out what time limit they like the most. 9. Other thoughts: - I don't really like the heavy biplane nerf, because I really liked the recoil from the former secondary fire in a lot of situations. Does the current secondary fire provide any recoil at all? You're going to make me into a well-rounded player, and I don't appreciate it :P - How about a team deathmatch mode? I suppose someone could remove the bomb from tbd maps, and add a server timer, but that limits tdm to only two teams. - I had something insightful to say here, but I forgot it. Quote:
- I love the new spawn graphic.
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#24
07-10-2009, 01:35 AM
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New game mode is a lot of fun. I really like it.
- I agree that dead players dropping health would be good for the repair drone problem. - Bars should carry over whether you die or not. As a random, getting the same plane again if you live is interesting to me. I think I like it. - Personally I would prefer longer rounds, but I see how that would be terrible for new players and public servers. I would like to see the time limit be configurable, even if it just had a couple discrete options, so that we can make long format league play maps or something. I forgot what else. But I love the reverse thrust. I love it with all my heart. Heavy cannon: We want to keep the powerful sniping properties of the HC. Make the shot "bloom" so that it cannot be used at short range, keep the secondary fire how it is now, and then buff them both (or un-nerf, rather) a tiny bit.
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#25
07-10-2009, 01:38 AM
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Place the base and infiltrator outside the game bounds (so noone can see either) and voila, team deathmatch.
Re: objective game mode, please keep the feedback coming -- I'll make a bunch of adjustments soon. Re: heavy cannon, this nerf is an attempt to add some variety to the biplane perks. I'm sure the balance will have to be adjusted, and maybe even the concept too. The goal is to allow heavy cannon to be really strong (a significant upgrade to primary, which I think it already is, though with 2ndary nerf it could perhaps be buffed) without making all other biplane loadouts obsolete. The normal biplane is built around his secondary which provides the best burst damage in the game. To give biplane the heavy cannon (making him a great long-range sniper) without taking away his uber-strong close-range weapon just can't work. Either we keep nerfing heavy cannon until its power level is the same as dogfighter's primary -- the only effective way I found to do this was with mega-recoil, which almost everyone hated -- or we replace the uber-secondary with something else; this patch is the first attempt at finding that "something else". I hope even the diehard heavy cannon users can agree that this is the right direction to allow the plane they want (sniper/long range version of biplane) that isn't broken in the overall balance perspective. Please post your balance feedback so that I can figure out how to bring his power level back up to where it should be while keeping him unique.
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#26
07-10-2009, 01:44 AM
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I'm testing a dethmatch version of mayhem. 5min round time, first team to eliminate the other team. If blue (counter-terrorists heh ), don't kill red (terrorists) red wins by default.
Added additional powerups (only 1 health) to speed up matches. Definitely a good addition, with some additional options opens up a ton more modes in itself. Last edited by phong; 07-10-2009 at 01:46 AM.
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#27
07-10-2009, 01:49 AM
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#28
07-10-2009, 01:53 AM
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#29
07-10-2009, 01:55 AM
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I'm not opposed to putting recoil back on heavy's secondary, but insane burst damage (old heavy was even better than dogfighter for short range burst damage) can't work without insane recoil on his primary too, such that the heavy cannon's overall power level is comparable to or weaker than dogfighter's primary.
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#30
07-10-2009, 01:56 AM
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Dogfighter: has recoil, has short range burst, lacks speed and long range capability Recoilless: has short range burst, allows user to maintain speed Old Heavy: had recoil, had short range burst, had long range dominance, moderate to low speed disadvantage The previous version of the heavy cannon, as you said, had all three of the above, making it a fairly obvious choice over the other two setups. The new heavy cannon is essentially trading in short range dominance for a long range sniper plane. It's a different playstyle, maybe it will need some tweaking to add a little something beyond long range supremacy, but overall I think it's a pretty valid change.
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#33
07-10-2009, 02:07 AM
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How about turning it into a tailgun? Or maybe giving it slight tracking ability?
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#35
07-10-2009, 02:32 AM
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old HC definitely did not render all other biplane loadouts obsolete. i played recoilless just as much as i played HC.
didn't we have a thread like a month ago in which numerous hardcore bip players agreed that recoilless was just as good of a loadout as HC? nerfing HC just makes recoilless the only viable biplane loadout. if anything, dogfighter needed a slight buff so it could hang with HC and recoilless.
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#37
07-10-2009, 02:46 AM
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I'm more concerned that the other team can tell the players that are alive where the bomb has been planted. Or dead offenders with not enough time to plant telling the remaining offenders where the last defender is "hiding" so they can kill him before time runs out (a valid Counterstrike strategy anyway). Also, if the bomb is planted with 2 seconds to go or something the game shouldn't end. It should be up to the defenders to defuse the bomb (or let it explode and lose the round). You might as well set the matches at 30 seconds unless you plan on killing off the entire other team as it stands now.
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#38
07-10-2009, 03:14 AM
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Even if you just made a button where I could drop powerups, and a feature where picking up a healthpack when you're at full health stores it, and then I could fly around giving that healthpack to people who are about to die - that would still be satisfying.
Also, I've played a bit now so: The new Reverse Thrust EMP Buff looks, feels, and is amazing, thank you. I don't really get why you nerfed Heavy Cannon again, after removing pierce, then putting it back in while taking away any use it had (One other target, and that 50% barely does anything). However, the WAY in which you nerfed it is what I really don't like... taking away the recoil machinegun takes away a lot of strategic options, which makes playing HC that much less interesting. I don't see why any sane developer would want to REMOVE choices like that. I don't know where all the people complaining so hard about HC are, but if you really must nerf the perk, putting in a totally useless secondary weapon is not the way to go about it. Now we only have one option for all situations - hit F. Booooring. How about a new and interesting secondary that actually COMPLIMENTS Heavy Cannon instead of just being a throw-in from Dogfighter? Like a harmless but very useful targeting laser that takes energy to run as you hold it down, making us choose between spending energy on improving our accuracy or keeping it all for more rapid firing. Or the secondary could be a different type of ammo for the Heavy Cannon - a shot with less damage but a some AoE applied, or an arcing shot that starts out fast, and quickly slows down and starts falling to earth. That could make Heavy Cannon REALLY interesting as you try to shoot over obstacles with it and be an artillery plane  It'd be a bit wierd without being able to choose the power of it, but I'm sure it'd still be quite useful.Or, a telescopic sight secondary! Hold D and it shifts your view one entire screen to the forward, showing you what's coming. As I understand it, HC's range got nerfed anyway, so it's not like we'd be able to snipe with it that much, right? Oh, and finally, there's a really wierd bug relating to landing on the base in the new patch. Depending on how you land, or perhaps just randomly, your plane will start to 'pull' up and down unwillingly when you take off and continue to do so until you die or land again and get a different random 'pull' effect. I've had as little as a slight twinge in the controls, and as much as... well, let's just say enough to make a very pretty rave spinner with Laser Miranda. It's really annoying for me in particular because I'm one of the few players that doesn't use repair drone on every single plane, so it takes away the old fallback of being able to go home and repair if I run out of healthpacks. Please look into this?
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#40
07-10-2009, 03:53 AM
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toyed around with the new Heavy Cannon and yeah, it's pretty retarded. I'm not really sure what you were trying to nerf here. Up close damage? Recoilless and dogfighter still do this fine. If you felt it was too much, you could always make the MG cost more energy/deal less damage (or heavy shot cost more).
IMO, the problem never really was the up-close damage. That's sort of the staple thing the biplane does. The problems always been that HC (or recoilless) straight up replaces dogfighter. Then again, we also have this problem with Explodet (thermo/remote replaces director). If you're looking for ways to "balance" a set, try some variables outside of the weapons. Maybe make the dogfighter turn faster than the others, fly faster, have more HP, better regen/energy (or alternatively, HC and/or recoilless turn slower, fly slower, have less HP, or better regen/energy).
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Linear Mode
