Ladder or Regular?

[Reu]

So, like I was there joining ladder today. To my dismay I was told it wasn't a ladder server that I had joined. To my curiosity the map that was being displayed clearly showed 'Altitude Ladder'.

Apparently setting up scrims in ladder is allowed but I am not entirely sure. I had thought ladder was available to everyone, who had wished to play on it. I'd just like to clear this up since this is pretty confusing. The server 'Ladder #4' is it or is it not a ladder server?

By which it means that all players are allowed to participate in a friendly competition based server, or is it a regular server where clans can participate in scrims.

Also redirecting me to another ladder server does not solve the crisis at hand. Is it or is it not a ladder server.

Sincerely

[Karl]

You have been conned by the immature community that is Altitude Ladder. As you can see by the follow up posts that were made in this thread.

I would suggest reading up a little more about the ladder in these forums and on their website so you can hopefully avoid being duped in the future.

FYI: The ladder servers are privately run and are not associated with Nimbly Games.

[mikesol]

Sometimes when apl servers aren't working or don't have the right maps - people take over ladder for their scrims.

[sunshineduck]

Originally Posted by Karl

You have been conned by the immature community that is Altitude Ladder. As you can see by the follow up posts that were made in this thread.

I would suggest reading up a little more about the ladder in these forums and on their website so you can hopefully avoid being duped in the future.

FYI: The ladder servers are privately run and are not associated with Nimbly Games.

fwiw, nobody was conned. his terrible english and apparent lack of knowledge of the situation may make it seem so, but what was going on was this:

- t3c, {ball}, and SBDHFBS had scrims set up for this afternoon, as seen in this post and this post.
- at the arranged time, both {ball} and t3c met up in an empty APL server for the matches. upon trying to get the game started, it turned out that none of the APL servers had any ball maps loaded onto the server. this was rather inconvenient.
- upon failing to be able to reach mikesol or aki and not wanting to play on a european server due to both teams being primarily US-based, and not wanting to invade a random public server since nobody would have admin privileges, it was decided that we would go to one of the two empty US ball ladder servers (we ended up joining ladder #3) since we had a player on each team (ryebone and myself) that had admin rights and could start/stop tournament etc. when the first game started, the only players that were in the server were members of either team.
- as the games progressed, more and more random people joined the ladder server wondering what was going on, and they were all told that there was a scrim going on, and if they wanted to play real ladder games they should migrate to the other empty server. i have no idea if they started any games on that server as i was playing essentially the entire time, but nobody asked us to clear out so they could start a second ladder so i doubt we were being intrusive.
- at some point between games, as we were deciding on lineups and a map, reu (playing under [Fat]PsycoAnimus) wandered into the server and wondered what was happening. he was then told that it was a scrim going on and that if he wanted to play ladder games he should go join the other server, as no ladder games were going to be played on ladder #3 until the scrims were over. he then refused to spectate and apparently could not wrap his head around the idea that a ladder server could be used for something other than ladder games (not the first time it's been necessary, but apparently a new concept to him).

not sure why it was even an issue as ladder #4 is identical to ladder #3 in every facet other than assigned number, but that's what happened.

[[Y]]

Originally Posted by Karl

You have been conned by the immature community that is Altitude Ladder.

Did not expect this animosity from Karl towards the thing that's retaining a good chunk of the playerbase. Simply an impassioned knee-jerk towards sunshinedick?

[Aki1024]

Due to the way this forum software works, this thread appears as though Karl is blaming the entire Ladder community, and arrogantly states that other people will soon chime in showing this immaturity. Without a convo with someone that saw the deleted post, I wouldn't have known anything the wiser. I'm disappointed that vBulletin doesn't at least keep the post numbers to their original number. The software is censorship in the worst form.

If a mod is going to delete post, please make note that there were post deleted since the software does not. I am glad that someone was able to let me know that Karl's words was not actually post #2. If he was the first responder, I feel his post would be highly uncalled for.

[Karl]

Originally Posted by [Y]

Did not expect this animosity from Karl towards the thing that's retaining a good chunk of the playerbase. Simply an impassioned knee-jerk towards sunshinedick?

You're right I should not have included the entire Ladder community in my statements but the first 5 posts to this thread were highly uncalled for. My apologies to the greater ladder community whom are respectful to others.

I was taken off guard by the insulting posts by respected players of the Altitude community. I will not tolerate such animosity towards a forum member.

Thank you for clarifying the situation ssd.

[Urpee]

I took no offense there at all. It's plainly true that some parts of the ladder community can be quite immature to put it politely. That a word like "some" may have gone missing is easy enough to fill in, and I took it as implied.

[elxir]

i mean the first two times i tried to join the game i got dropped by admin, i didn't come to forum and make a lengthy ragepost...instead i read the words being written by the three clans and admins present and got it through my head that the server was being used by 30+ players from 3 different clans and multiple admins for ball scrims (due to lack of alternate server), not ladder matches

not sure what purpose of the OP is, other than to state the obvious (especially since ryebone who is basically nobo was there according to ssd)

[Urpee]

Seems to me that the lesson learned here is that ladder is not an ideal place for scrimmages. If APL servers could have ball maps ready there wouldn't be confusion, or if clans had a server to host scrimmages etc etc etc.

It isn't all that surprising that people get confused when they walk into ladder and suddenly it isn't ladder. Who gets to decide if ladder is ladder or something else? In short OP makes a legitimate point. It seems to me that all this is indeed best avoided.

[elxir]

why is that the lesson learned? the scrims worked out great from what i hear

it's just a matter of ppl with thick heads not letting words enter them

[mikesol]

For what its worth i added all official ball maps to apl.

[yankinlk]

Originally Posted by elxir

why is that the lesson learned? the scrims worked out great from what i hear

it's just a matter of ppl with thick heads not letting words enter them

Are you not demonstrating thick headedness yourself right thar

[elxir]

Originally Posted by yankinlk

Are you not demonstrating thick headedness yourself right thar

no, i mean if i join ladder and 30 players are using 1 of the FIVE available ladder servers for a scrimmage because they can't play anywhere else, i'm not going to be like WTF GUYS STOP IT NOW YOU HAVE TO PLAY LADDER GAMES WITH ME

i'm gonna be like, o balls, whatevs


now if for example ball and spfdaufnwugnwrinstupidlongname were to go into a server that already had players in it, and force specced them, that would be something else

but this server was just chillin empty and had ladder admins go-ahead to use it

[sunshineduck]

ya i mean there was no ladder running at all when we started playing, and if anyone had asked us to leave to make room we would have obliged and played in europe or something. the reason we use phong's servers is because they're super stable and important people have admin on them. we ended up switching to sbdhshj's "scrim server" which is really just hosted off number 3's laptop on his home internet connection. it was not only really unstable, it was basically unusable due to my inability to make fun of acegunner's weight in server chat.

[Reu]

Originally Posted by Karl

You're right I should not have included the entire Ladder community in my statements but the first 5 posts to this thread were highly uncalled for. My apologies to the greater ladder community whom are respectful to others.

I was taken off guard by the insulting posts by respected players of the Altitude community. I will not tolerate such animosity towards a forum member.

Thank you for clarifying the situation ssd.

I find it to be the players whom are trying to hop onto the band wagon one after another.

Originally Posted by sunshineduck

refused to spectate

I have to stop you there. I was asking all these questions AS I was spectating. For asking these questions in ladder, I was also dropped by a server admin without breaking any rule whatsoever. Could you answer that, possibly with some real hard evidence.

Also the OP is not a complaint, it's a question. Did anyone answer the question level headed with some competence, not really. The only admin to post was ssd. No help here was provided. Is it or is it not a ladder server. All you did was describe me your events of the day of which I have no interest in.

To deter confusion in the server I'd suggest you guys pay for your own server to hold your own scrims on as the ladder servers are for public use, not for admins to host scrims on. As nowhere on the ladder thread does it state that.

[sunshineduck]

is it an extremely difficult concept to grasp that the ladder servers are privately run and are perfectly viable as backup options to scrim on should the go-to apl servers not be ready? like, do you not understand that the people that actually run the server might have a better idea of what the server can and can't be used for than you do?

i don't get at all what you're even complaining about. if the other ladder had been started and you wanted us to clear out so you could start a second ladder we would have happily obliged, but the server wasn't being used so there was really no reason not to use it. clearly we weren't interested in playing ladder, and we told the people that did want to play ladder to migrate to the other unused server. at no point did we go "oh hey we're shutting down ladder for like four hours while we play a scrim, you're not allowed to play ladder games until we're done".

re: you being dropped, i most definitely have you muted so i did not drop you for asking questions, and i highly doubt ryebone did. i dropped elixir twice when he tried to join a team, and i believe i dropped someone to make room for unbreak since the server was full. in hindsight that was probably you since i vaguely remember dropping someone i had muted, but i couldn't tell you for sure.

[sunshineduck]

actually at one point both teams even switched servers to save everyone trying to start ladder the hassle, and everyone in the previous server left and joined the one we switched to

[darknietzsche]

Reu you are correct (99% of the time) ladder servers are there for ladder. However, in rare cases they can be used for other purposes. For example, this past APL actually used 2 of these servers for hosting APL matches on sundays because the APL servers were down. And to my knowledge no one complained that they were being used because there were still other ladder servers for use (also I believe this was still before euro ladder but I may be wrong). So this past sunday when to the surprise of the 3 "US-based" ball teams using the ladder server no APL server had ball maps meaning no stable US private servers were available on such a short notice. These teams decide to use 1 of 6 ladder servers to scrim on. I see no harm in this since there are 2 other ball ladder servers that can incorporate up to ~60 players between them. Plus there was no interest of the near full ladder server that was being used for the scrim to actually play ladder, so I do not see the harm and letting everyone know what was going on and suggesting you guys move the other ladder servers if you actually wanted to play ladder. If I recall correctly there were a few people dropped by the server and this was only because after numerous people suggesting and telling those what was going on, those certain people refusing to spec and allow us to prepare for skyleague. I would have been happy to move other servers (which we eventually did anyways) if that server actually needed to be used for ladder purposes, but I see absolutely no harm or cause of concern for what happened during the time as no ladder servers were actually being used and if people wanted to start ladder they still had the opportunity to.

Edit: SSD got to my main point before me :|

[phong]

Do I still host APL? I know when we moved ladder to a new server we forgot the move APL (oops), but I sent mikesol the info to set it back up.

[Aki1024]

Originally Posted by phong

Do I still host APL? I know when we moved ladder to a new server we forgot the move APL (oops), but I sent mikesol the info to set it back up.

Yep, you are hosting both sets of servers. The issue was that we didn't add any ball maps to the APL servers when they were setup. Mike noted that he fixed this problem earlier in this thread.

For a while, we had to take down ladder during APL so that APL had port numbers on that box. You also got that problem resolved in short order once we asked you about it.

[ryebone]

Originally Posted by Reu

The only admin to post was ssd.

I thought about posting, but I figured ssd already covered the main points. Yes, ladder servers are supposed to be used for ladder games only. However, on the rare occasions that other servers are unavailable for whatever reason, it's up to the admins' discretion to use the ladder servers for something other than ladder.

Had there been actual ladder games going on, I would have absolutely not permitted this. However, they were empty. And really, there was no point not to use it.

[Reu]

Originally Posted by ryebone

I thought about posting, but I figured ssd already covered the main points. Yes, ladder servers are supposed to be used for ladder games only. However, on the rare occasions that other servers are unavailable for whatever reason, it's up to the admins' discretion to use the ladder servers for something other than ladder.

Had there been actual ladder games going on, I would have absolutely not permitted this. However, they were empty. And really, there was no point not to use it.

You see, I was unaware of this due to the fact that this is not stated anywhere for the altitude community to know.

Simply in ladder I was told it isn't ladder, and also I was dropped for asking things I presume or just dropped for the heck of it.
I have a screen shot which I can upload if I active my imageshack account if needed for proof, but I'd like to get down to that also.

[nobodyhome]

Originally Posted by Reu

You see, I was unaware of this due to the fact that this is not stated anywhere for the altitude community to know.

Simply in ladder I was told it isn't ladder, and also I was dropped for asking things I presume or just dropped for the heck of it.
I have a screen shot which I can upload if I active my imageshack account if needed for proof, but I'd like to get down to that also.

When you went into the server, you were told by a ladder admin (ssd) that at the time, the server was being used for scrims. This should be sufficient warning for you to figure out that it wasn't used for ladder at the moment.

[Reu]

Originally Posted by nobodyhome

When you went into the server, you were told by a ladder admin (ssd) that at the time, the server was being used for scrims. This should be sufficient warning for you to figure out that it wasn't used for ladder at the moment.

Considering it was in particular THIS server admin, I'm pretty weary what to believe. Numerous times has he been singled out for bias opinionated decisions and to this matter and to this day I still don't trust his judgement.

Had it been someone else, I'd have probably been more inclined to believe it.

[Radium]

Originally Posted by Reu

Considering it was in particular THIS server admin, I'm pretty weary what to believe. Numerous times has he been singled out for bias opinionated decisions and to this matter and to this day I still don't trust his judgement.

Had it been someone else, I'd have probably been more inclined to believe it.

yeah it would've been better if someone like rye was there

[Aki1024]

0d 13h 34m Player Joins (27): [Fat]PsycoAnimus (0:60) 90.212.131.185:27278 6f53d989-51d5-4b2d-afd9-497455078cc5
0d 13h 34m [Fat]PsycoAnimus: ffs
0d 13h 34m [Fat]PsycoAnimus: Wtf is going on?
0d 13h 35m [Fat]PsycoAnimus: Isn't this ladder?
0d 13h 35m DN likes Sammiches: this isnt ladder please sit
0d 13h 35m SBDHFBS| Kaizen: no this is a scrim
0d 13h 35m [Fat]PsycoAnimus: How the **** is it.
0d 13h 35m [Fat]PsycoAnimus: It says ladder?
0d 13h 35m slender: haha, is this even allowed?
0d 13h 35m [Fat]PsycoAnimus: I don't think it is.
0d 13h 35m nOtClApT3C: why wouldnt it be allowd?
0d 13h 35m Ryan Braun: no one cares what you thing
0d 13h 35m Ryan Braun: think
0d 13h 35m [Fat]PsycoAnimus: Because it's ladder.
0d 13h 36m [Fat]PsycoAnimus: Everyones allowed to play.
0d 13h 36m nOtClApT3C: its not ladder
0d 13h 36m Ryan Braun: not right now
0d 13h 36m nOtClApT3C: its a scrim
0d 13h 36m [Fat]PsycoAnimus: Why is there a background map saying Altitude Ladder?
0d 13h 36m nOtClApT3C: if you want ladde go to the other server
0d 13h 36m [Fat]PsycoAnimus: Can't you guys go to APL or some ****.
0d 13h 36m nOtClApT3C: we arnt stoping you from playing ladder
0d 13h 36m slender: could've used apl 1 imo
0d 13h 36m DN likes Sammiches: apl servers have no ball maps
0d 13h 36m slender: o
0d 13h 36m t3c.clap: IT HAS NO BALL MAPS
0d 13h 36m DN likes Sammiches: that is why we are here
0d 13h 36m {eH} Fluffy: is this still scrims or is it actually ladder now?
0d 13h 36m [Fat]PsycoAnimus: Probably not.
0d 13h 37m [Fat]PsycoAnimus: You guys are retarded enough to use ladder.
0d 13h 37m af.beep: get a load of this guy
0d 13h 37m [Fat]PsycoAnimus: So whose like the server admin allowing this?
0d 13h 37m t3c.clap: me
0d 13h 37m nOtClApT3C: this is allowd
0d 13h 37m [Fat]PsycoAnimus: Because it's ladder.
0d 13h 38m nOtClApT3C: we arnt stoping you from playing ladder
0d 13h 38m tc3.Clapon: there is 3 other ladders you can play on
0d 13h 38m [Fat]PsycoAnimus: Get your own server to play scrims on.
0d 13h 38m [Fat]PsycoAnimus: Doesn't matter.
0d 13h 38m [Fat]PsycoAnimus: Besides the point.
0d 13h 38m af.beep: get your own server psycho
0d 13h 38m af.beep: u cereal?
0d 13h 38m [Fat]PsycoAnimus: I'm bowl.
0d 13h 38m Ryan Braun: its not besides the point
0d 13h 38m [Fat]PsycoAnimus: Really noone asked your opinion, go dig a hole.
0d 13h 38m UKNPLR# 2: technically if we leave, there's no one left here for ladder anyway...
0d 13h 38m nOtClApT3C: no one asked yours
0d 13h 38m [Fat]PsycoAnimus: Then leave.
0d 13h 39m Ryan Braun: we were here first
0d 13h 39m af.beep: go qq on forums
0d 13h 39m nOtClApT3C: ^
0d 13h 39m [Fat]PsycoAnimus: I am.
0d 13h 39m af.beep: enjoy wasting your time
0d 13h 48m Ryan Braun: ladder is being played in ladder 3
0d 13h 48m DN likes Sammiches: this is not ladder guys
0d 13h 48m Apathee: ladder 3 for ladder
0d 13h 49m [Fat]PsycoAnimus: Isn't this ladder?
0d 13h 49m [Fat]PsycoAnimus: The server name is Ladder #4
0d 13h 49m Ryan Braun: LADDER 3 FOR LADDER
0d 13h 49m Player Leaves (27): [Fat]PsycoAnimus 90.212.131.185:27278 6f53d989-51d5-4b2d-afd9-497455078cc5 Reason: Dropped by server admin., Message: dropped by server
0d 13h 50m Player Joins (27): [Fat]PsycoAnimus (0:60) 90.212.131.185:27278 6f53d989-51d5-4b2d-afd9-497455078cc5
0d 13h 50m [Fat]PsycoAnimus: Urm, why'd I get dropped.
0d 13h 50m af.beep: forums, go, qq
0d 13h 50m [Fat]PsycoAnimus: I didn't break the rules?
0d 13h 50m Player Leaves (27): [Fat]PsycoAnimus 90.212.131.185:27278 6f53d989-51d5-4b2d-afd9-497455078cc5 Reason: Client left., Message: left
(different server)
0d 13h 50m Player Joins (8): [Fat]PsycoAnimus (0:60) 90.212.131.185:27278 6f53d989-51d5-4b2d-afd9-497455078cc5
0d 13h 50m VipMattMan: is other server broken?
0d 13h 51m AssaultCookie: no, they're scimming
0d 13h 51m [Fat]PsycoAnimus: No
0d 13h 51m [Fat]PsycoAnimus: They are using it for scrims
0d 13h 51m [Fat]PsycoAnimus: I've posted on the forums asking about it
0d 13h 51m [Fat]PsycoAnimus: I also got dropped by a server admin without breaking any rules, so I do intend for someone to lose
0d 13h 51m [Fat]PsycoAnimus: their admin status hopefully.
(by 0d 14h 1m it appears that normal ladder games are being played.
Convo not about the incident removed.)

You were repeatedly told that scrims were being done by multiple people, and that the other ladder was open for use. You continued to harassed the players that were on the server, and eventually was dropped from the server, which is the equivalent of being slapped on the wrist.

[darknietzsche]

In retrospect, we could have probably been more polite in how we explained the situation although I do not think most of the people mentioning were being overly exhausting their feelings, but as aki mentioned there is really no reason to respond the way you did.

Also, it seems in your conversation that your main point that we should not be using that server as a scrimming server, so lets just say ladder was up in a different server with everyone who was scrimming not there anyways. And we decide to use another ladder server as a scrimming place. Would you have even had a problem then? It seems you were angry because we were not starting ladder which if we did not want to scrim could have easily been achieved, but we had no intention of starting ladder, so trying to get ladder started even if we were not there would have been the same issue you were facing anyways.

[Fartface]

The thing is rue, they weren't preventing you from doing anything whatsoever

So are you just complaining here on principle? Because the word "ladder" appears in the background and you wanted to stir up trouble?

[Urpee]

Originally Posted by mikesol

For what its worth i added all official ball maps to apl.

I see a constructive solution for the future...

[nobodyhome]

Originally Posted by Reu

Considering it was in particular THIS server admin, I'm pretty weary what to believe. Numerous times has he been singled out for bias opinionated decisions and to this matter and to this day I still don't trust his judgement.

Had it been someone else, I'd have probably been more inclined to believe it.

SSD was an admin appointed by me and approved by several others, and to this day he still receives my continued support (this should be obvious to anyone who's noticed that SSD is still admin). When he is admin anything he does on an official admin capacity (banning, warnings, making decisions to use one ladder server for scrims) is done on behalf of all admins. Whether he has done anything wrong is to be determined by admin review on a later time, but it doesn't invalidate anything he does at the moment. Saying that you don't trust him means you don't trust any of the admins, and if you think that, then you might as well not play ladder.

[Tekn0]

0d 13h 51m [Fat]PsycoAnimus: I also got dropped by a server admin without breaking any rules, so I do intend for someone to lose
0d 13h 51m [Fat]PsycoAnimus: their admin status hopefully.

The most important person has been unjustly kicked, remove admin status immediately!!

[SlenderMan]

I gotta agree with DN, Para simply deserved a respectful reason of why the server was being used as a scrim server. Like me; I said "could've used apl 1 imo" and DN kindly told me that it was because there were no ball maps in APL and I was like "ok".

Respect to others is what most lost in the server and some on the forums.

[leggomyeggo]

Originally Posted by Reu

Considering it was in particular THIS server admin, I'm pretty weary what to believe. Numerous times has he been singled out for bias opinionated decisions and to this matter and to this day I still don't trust his judgement.

Had it been someone else, I'd have probably been more inclined to believe it.

think what you want about ssd, but i've been playing ladder for a long time now and i have never seen him make an opinionated decision on a ladder ban or any other decision pertaining to ladder issues. i think you're just assuming that he would drop/ban you because he hates you. while i wasn't there, it's obvious that you knew what was going on and why the ladder servers were being used. even if it didn't come from an admin, since so many players were telling you that the ladder server was being used for scrims since apl didn't have ball maps, you should have figured out he was telling the truth.

[Urpee]

Originally Posted by nobodyhome

Saying that you don't trust him means you don't trust any of the admins, and if you think that, then you might as well not play ladder.

Quite a weird thing to say. I trust most admins though not SSD. In fact he is the only admin I had to mute because of his constant harassment.

[Radium]

Originally Posted by Urpee

Quite a weird thing to say. I trust most admins though not SSD. In fact he is the only admin I had to mute because of his constant harassment.

Maybe it's because math is bad

[SlenderMan]

Originally Posted by leggomyeggo

even if it didn't come from an admin, since so many players were telling you that the ladder server was being used for scrims since apl didn't have ball maps, you should have figured out he was telling the truth.

While that is true, he was still treated in a very poor way from the begining.

[Urpee]

Originally Posted by Radium

Maybe it's because math is bad

Math is friend not food.

[Clapon]

Originally Posted by SlenderMan

While that is true, he was still treated in a very poor way from the begining.

How was he treated very poor? read the chat log, only one thing said by mj could even be considered bad and even then that is day to day stuff. He was told quite politely that it was a scrim and if he wanted to play ladder games he was welcome to go to ladder 3 and that there were no ball maps on apl. As slender said himself once he was informed of what was going on he said "ok" where reu decided to cause more trouble just for the fun of causing trouble. Now when he does this people start getting annoyed and then the insults start flying, because people expect when others are given sufficient reason, for a normal person to comprehend, that they accept it and move on whether its to the other ladder or to stay and spec the scrims. On top of all of this there were at least two admins in the server at the time and the fact that they were allowing it should be enough for him to figure it out alone. After rereading the chat long if it isn't obvious to everybody that he is just trying to start **** then I have lost all respect for you.

P.S. I also expect apologies from karl for jumping to conclusions and degrading the community.

[Urpee]

Originally Posted by Clapon

P.S. I also expect apologies from karl for jumping to conclusions and degrading the community.

He's already apologized. Not that he has degraded the community at all.