Releasing plane stats

nobodyhome · #1 08-05-2009, 10:57 PM

I think it's been mentioned multiple times now that it would be very nice to have plane stats released. The reasons that I see for this are:

1. We have a better idea of what's good strategically and what's not. I.e. with stats we would be able to see that if a dogfighter can kill an explodet in one burst of fire whereas a recoilless plane can't because of the increased energy required, then we would know it might make sense to pick a dogfighter against a team heavy in explodets.

2. We can discuss balance more sensibly, and provide hard suggestions for numbers instead of just speculation.

Now this has been mentioned in multiple threads, and from the past, it seems that lam and karl have responded pretty quickly in terms of getting good and easily satisfied suggestions satisfied. If there is a reason why stats aren't being released, could you at least tell us?

If the reason was that stats change too often (with balance patches, etc), the stats could be displayed within the game itself (maybe in the plane/perk selection screens, or in a separate stats page) so that the stats would be auto-updated with each patch. Speaking of patches, it would also be nice if patches stated hard numbers of what was changed rather than in percentages (i.e. damage from 50-> 55, instead of 10% increase, which is hard to decipher in terms of gameplay impact).

lamster · #2 08-05-2009, 11:21 PM

I think people place too much value in hard numbers(!) but they are occasionally of limited use. The main reason I haven't released them yet is that collection takes time and maintenance across balance patches is very annoying. Displaying stats in-game would probably be the best solution (especially as we could get an auto-changelog out of it) but would require a fair amount of UI work. I promise to release something this month.

DiogenesDog · #3 08-05-2009, 11:38 PM

What's always interesting to me is how much ppl's perceptions of balance change when they see the numbers. Like they'll often start ignoring their actual experiences and start thinking about it based on what they know just MUST be true, even if it isn't.

but yeah, sometimes they're nice to have. if nothing else, it helps new players leapfrog forward in skill more quickly instead of having to learn lots of random facts the hard way (such as the number of HC shots it takes to kill each plane with X bars or whatever, which is the kind of info that everyone really good will know once there are actually really good altitude players at some future date).

Ferret · #4 08-06-2009, 01:34 AM

Remember to multiply everything by 10,000 if you want people to think the game is really extreme.

"My acid just did 67,000 damage to that 320,000 hp explodet!"

Triped · #5 08-06-2009, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lamster

I think people place too much value in hard numbers(!) but they are occasionally of limited use. The main reason I haven't released them yet is that collection takes time and maintenance across balance patches is very annoying. Displaying stats in-game would probably be the best solution (especially as we could get an auto-changelog out of it) but would require a fair amount of UI work. I promise to release something this month.

Put out an XML file on altitudegame.com - that way the Wiki and any fan sites can get that auto-updating information as well.

nesnl · #6 08-07-2009, 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiogenesDog

What's always interesting to me is how much ppl's perceptions of balance change when they see the numbers. Like they'll often start ignoring their actual experiences and start thinking about it based on what they know just MUST be true, even if it isn't.

First, I want to comment on what you said Lamster. Having the numbers available can only help. With an entire community of people at your finger tips you never know what talented people out there can do in terms of crunching numbers and comparing the planes. Releasing the numbers can only help.

Second, to comment on what Dio said. I think that what you described is only somewhat true. Often times what people see in game is a horrible representation of how things should be balanced. This is definitely the case with Loopy and Bomber. If we balanced based on what we saw in game, which is 99% suiciding (sorry "crashing") new players, then we would buff those planes to the point of ridiculous over powered planes. The numbers can help by looking at the game in terms of what "ideal" play would look like (as in every shot hits) and comparing it to actual game play (difficulty of hitting, speed and turning of the plane, etc). Sometimes the numbers are the only way to truly balance the game because in order to get a true feel for the balance through game play would require a TON of games played by the best players with all of them constantly analyzing how each plane load out played versus the others.

Lastly, if you changed "Suicide" to "Crash" why not change "killed" to something like "shot down"? (as in Player123 shot down Player789 instead of Player123 killed Player789).

Golden Bough · #7 08-07-2009, 08:15 AM

Why will you not release the plane stats?

wolf'j'max · #8 08-07-2009, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golden Bough

Why will you not release the plane stats?

I think when you do ppl will become too good so its not fun to play
The newbs that come in the official servers will leave the game immediately cuz they get killed everyone 10 seconds after spawning. Altitude won't get bigger that way

as red as black · #9 08-07-2009, 09:00 AM

I think we all may be getting to caught up in ultra balancing everything...

I'm kinda starting to lean towards not caring. If you practice a plane long enough, you'll get good at it and kill people. All planes can kill other planes. Some are better at killing certain planes than others. Not all planes have to be on a perfectly level playing field at killing each other. I accept that mines brutally savage my miranda. Yes, heavy cannon will pierce my supple loopy. SO WHAT. It's not like [insert plane] is incapable of killing [insert plane]. It's not like [insert plane] doesn't have an advantage killing [insert plane].

however....stats would be cool because I'm a stats addict.

wolf'j'max · #10 08-07-2009, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by as red as black

I think we all may be getting to caught up in ultra balancing everything...

I'm kinda starting to lean towards not caring. If you practice a plane long enough, you'll get good at it and kill people. All planes can kill other planes. Some are better at killing certain planes than others. Not all planes have to be on a perfectly level playing field at killing each other. I accept that mines brutally savage my miranda. Yes, heavy cannon will pierce my supple loopy. SO WHAT. It's not like [insert plane] is incapable of killing [insert plane]. It's not like [insert plane] doesn't have an advantage killing [insert plane].

however....stats would be cool because I'm a stats addict.

Lolz first my score with bomber was like 0.23 after a week of practice it became 0.87.
So no stats needed

DiogenesDog · #11 08-07-2009, 01:46 PM

Maimer - when I say "your own experiences", I don't mean some kind of average of the effectiveness of every player. I just mean some kind of intuitive feeling you get about balance after playing / watching other ppl play. Obviously you weight some things more than others.

and yeah, also I didn't mean that people TOTALLY ignore it anyway. just that it's interesting how much weight they give to the numbers when they're available.

Esoteric · #12 08-07-2009, 03:49 PM

I think the most important stats are related to when bars let you kill a plane in fewer shots, most notable with bomber and heavy cannon. When you kill with 2 instead of 3 hits that's a pretty big effing deal. I have a feeling most good players are aware of this but I'm not even completely sure exactly where the point is for biplane. I'll have to test that, heh.

eth · #13 08-07-2009, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golden Bough

Why will you not release the plane stats?

Troll or something? If not read 4 posts above yours.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf'j'max

I think when you do ppl will become too good so its not fun to play
The newbs that come in the official servers will leave the game immediately cuz they get killed everyone 10 seconds after spawning. Altitude won't get bigger that way

Stats won't change player skill, lol.

Looking forward to this!

wolf'j'max · #14 08-07-2009, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eth

Troll or something? If not read 4 posts above yours.

Stats won't change player skill, lol.

Looking forward to this!

Uhm it will change eth when you see the stats there will be atleast one plane thats very good vs all others
The veterans here will become too good vs the newbs cuz they are using full version with skill and knowledge vs nothing

eth · #15 08-07-2009, 05:37 PM

What? Your logic is like.. lol. Stats being released =/= stats being changed.

The vets already know what planes are good vs others. And they already rape the **** out of the newbies(what do you expect?). What is NOT known are the exact stats, which would be cool to see. They won't affect gameplay in official #1.

Triped · #16 08-07-2009, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf'j'max

Uhm it will change eth when you see the stats there will be atleast one plane thats very good vs all others
The veterans here will become too good vs the newbs cuz they are using full version with skill and knowledge vs nothing

The only thing it'll add is a second type of mid-tier player who chooses planes based on theoretically damage. Like the current type of mid-tier player, but hampered by a much more obnoxious and persistent mindset.

Vania · #17 08-07-2009, 07:25 PM

Man I cant wait for these stats!!

I just need to see how bad biplane's long-range mgun is compared to bomber's tail-gun, and to miranda's energy shot spam.

gumbyy · #18 08-09-2009, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf'j'max

The veterans here will become too good vs the newbs cuz they are using full version with skill and knowledge vs nothing

So basically... "this is not fair because people who play the game a lot will be better than people who just started playing the game." ?!??!?!?!???

Golden Bough · #19 08-10-2009, 06:38 PM

Something like this would be good:

Loopy:
health: xx
double shot: xx
emp: xx
acid: xx

etc...

eth · #20 08-10-2009, 07:06 PM

Read the thread before you post maybe? :E

Kuja900 · #21 08-10-2009, 10:50 PM

Would be really nice to be able to compare things like flak/tailgun ect ect, cant wait ^_^.

TomBRowkaH · #22 08-10-2009, 11:20 PM

Stats would be nice to see. Of course they aren't going to really change how the game is played, but there's no reason why they should NOT be displayed.

Stormich · #23 08-11-2009, 09:28 AM

I think stats would be nice just to compare the numbers with mental images of stats.

TheCapedAvenger · #24 08-11-2009, 02:51 PM

great, release the stats right as i'm finishing up the next edition of pro manual. *sigh*, this will never get done.

Golden Bough · #25 08-11-2009, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheCapedAvenger

great, release the stats right as i'm finishing up the next edition of pro manual. *sigh*, this will never get done.

(TheCapedAvenger—diligent author of "the pro manual". Seen here working hard on the latest edition.)

Rechtschaffen · #26 08-12-2009, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golden Bough

(TheCapedAvenger—diligent author of "the pro manual". Seen here working hard on the latest edition.)

I didn't know Caped had Down's Syndrome. It's very impressive that, with excellent educational establishments such as Pathfinder Village, there's nothing to stop people who were previously classified as 'retarded' to take part in online communities.

What a stirring example of human progress.

CON · #27 08-13-2009, 03:07 AM

Well at least Lam will update something for us this month!
So count your blessings! sheesh...

Golden Bough · #28 08-31-2009, 04:55 AM

Bump. Bump. Bump.

Beagle · #29 08-31-2009, 06:23 AM

GGGGGGRAAAAAAAAAAAAAVEDIGGER

Golden Bough · #30 08-31-2009, 08:32 AM

I'll see your grave digger Beagle, and raise you a macho-man randy savage.

lamster · #31 08-31-2009, 10:28 PM

Here's a partial data dump. Some stuff (remote mine, flak explosion stats, etc) is still missing and will be added later. Feel free to suggest additional data that you'd like to see, formatting improvements, and a good place to integrate this data into the game UI.

Code:

Biplane
      health: 250.0
       speed: 9.87
        turn: 6.5
      weight: 1.02
  Dogfighter
      primary
        cooldown: 0.16666667 sec
          energy: 260.0
          damage: 38
    secondary
        cooldown: 0.06666667 sec
          energy: 115.2
          damage: 27
  Recoilless Gun
      primary
        cooldown: 0.16666667 sec
          energy: 260.0
          damage: 38
    secondary
        cooldown: 0.06666667 sec
          energy: 120.0
          damage: 26
  Heavy Cannon
      primary
        cooldown: 0.4 sec
          energy: 630.0
          damage: 109
    secondary
        cooldown: 0.06666667 sec
          energy: 120.0
          damage: 20
Bomber
      health: 275.0
       speed: 9.0
        turn: 7.0
      weight: 1.15
  Suppressor
      primary
        cooldown: 0.21756 sec
          energy: 380.0
          damage: 56
       explosion: 30 damage, 0.5 knockback, radius 78
    secondary
        cooldown: 0.1296 sec
          energy: 225.0
          damage: 35
  Bombs
      primary
        cooldown: 0.21756 sec
          energy: 380.0
          damage: 56
       explosion: 30 damage, 0.5 knockback, radius 78
    secondary
        cooldown: 0.136 sec
          energy: 380.0
          damage: 30
       explosion: 60 damage, 0.5 knockback, radius 85
  Flak Tailgun
      primary
        cooldown: 0.21756 sec
          energy: 380.0
          damage: 56
       explosion: 30 damage, 0.5 knockback, radius 78
    secondary
        cooldown: 0.29700002 sec
          energy: 445.0
          damage: 55
Explodet
      health: 295.0
       speed: 8.916
        turn: 5.6
      weight: 1.25
  Director
      primary
        cooldown: 0.33 sec
          energy: 300.0
          damage: 0
       explosion: 83 damage, 1.8 knockback, radius 93
    secondary
        cooldown: 0.46 sec
          energy: 550.0
          damage: 30
       explosion: 94 damage, 1.8 knockback, radius 94
  Thermobarics
      primary
        cooldown: 0.33 sec
          energy: 300.0
          damage: 0
       explosion: 83 damage, 1.8 knockback, radius 93
    secondary
        cooldown: 0.46 sec
          energy: 550.0
          damage: 30
       explosion: 94 damage, 1.8 knockback, radius 94
  Remote Mine
      primary
        cooldown: 0.33 sec
          energy: 300.0
          damage: 0
       explosion: 83 damage, 1.8 knockback, radius 93
    secondary
        cooldown: 0.35 sec
          energy: 550.0
          damage: 30
Loopy
      health: 190.0
       speed: 10.947
        turn: 8.4
      weight: 0.98

  Tracker
      primary
        cooldown: 0.25 sec
          energy: 307.0
          damage: 39
    secondary
        cooldown: 1.25 sec
          energy: 250.0
          damage: 20
             emp: 30% energy drained + no afterburners and reduced turning for 2.0 sec
  Double Fire
      primary
        cooldown: 0.25 sec
          energy: 369.93503
          damage: 2 x 29.25
    secondary
        cooldown: 1.25 sec
          energy: 250.0
          damage: 20
             emp: 30% energy drained + no afterburners and reduced turning for 2.0 sec
  Acid Bomb
      primary
        cooldown: 0.25 sec
          energy: 307.0
          damage: 39
    secondary
        cooldown: 0.87 sec
          energy: 600.0
          damage: 10
            acid: 67.0 damage over 3.0 sec + 33% damage amplification
Miranda
      health: 180.0
       speed: 9.374
        turn: 7.0
      weight: 0.98
  Trickster
      primary
        cooldown: 0.1 sec
          energy: 130.0
          damage: 26
    secondary
  Laser
      primary
        cooldown: 0.1 sec
          energy: 130.0
          damage: 260.0 over 0.8045 sec, length 273.0
    secondary
  Time Anchor
      primary
        cooldown: 0.1 sec
          energy: 130.0
          damage: 26
    secondary

eth · #32 08-31-2009, 10:42 PM

Awesome!

e:all caps :<

Vi* · #33 08-31-2009, 10:44 PM

remote mine explosion stats please!

Kuja900 · #34 08-31-2009, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vi*

remote mine explosion stats please!

Yes please

Niko0olas · #35 08-31-2009, 11:02 PM

hm... would like to have a bit longer laser on my miranda...[another 1cm?]
length is a problem sometimes...
=]

yoshi · #36 08-31-2009, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niko0olas

hm... would like to have a bit longer laser on my miranda...[another 1cm?]
length is a problem sometimes...
=]

Get some Extenze
Edit:I'd like to see how the charge up affects the miranda shots.

Blank · #37 09-01-2009, 01:30 AM

I've always liked my idea of plane specific veteran bonuses.

Vania · #38 09-01-2009, 02:10 AM

Miranda's primary spam and biplane's long range gun are basically the same weapon with different graphic, but miranda's gun is a lot better. I knew it!!

Recoilless Biplane
primary
cooldown: 0.16666667 sec
energy: 260.0
damage: 38

Trickster Miranda
primary
cooldown: 0.1 sec
energy: 130.0
damage: 26

Biplanes damage/sec: 228
Mirandas damage/sec: 260
(miranda's damage is 1.14 times better)

Biplanes energy usage/sec: 1560
Mirandas energy usage/sec: 1300
(miranda's energy usage is 1.2 times better)

Miranda is able to dish more damage using less energy,
that means miranda's gun is 1,368 times better than biplane's gun.

Now, why is miranda's spam so good?
Or why is biplane's long range gun so bad?

Smushface · #39 09-01-2009, 02:24 AM

That wasn't a biased used of numbers at all.

Snowsickle · #40 09-01-2009, 03:56 AM

I've wanted trickster mirandas shot cooldown increased for a very long time. I don't feel like it should be a spammable weapon - it goes completely against the planes niche as a precision/sniper plane and feels skill-less all around. I'd advocate changing the cooldown to around 0.33 or even higher, depending on how it plays out. (Assuming cooldown applies while a shot is charging - I don't believe there should be a delay between firing a fully charged shot and charging a new one, only between spammed uncharged shots)