make altitude (forums) great again

[leggomyeggo]

friends, romans, countrymen, lend me your ears. i come bearing gifts, well...rather, gift. the gift of one chat log that is sure to make some of you laugh uncontrollably, some of you filled with rage, and some of you back out of this post as soon as you see the length of the chat log i'm about to post (tl;dr at end of post). without further ado, i give you:


The Day Remote Whale Died
Chapter 1:
[17:35] t3c.leggo: oh btw woof i forgot to tell u
[17:35] TheCapedAvenger: spec chat
[17:35] t3c.leggo: looks like ur one of the 3 people allowed to play remote
[17:36] t3c.leggo: effectively
[17:36] Professional: beat it
[17:36] Blind: leggo why you always tryin to go so hard on me
[17:36] Blind: instead of listenin to da words bein said
[17:36] t3c.leggo: ok then
[17:36] t3c.leggo: say da words
[17:37] Blind: the vast vast vast majority of peeps in ball shouldnt be using remote
[17:37] Blind: but i said there were 3 players that can at least make that call
[17:37] Moon: i wouldnt go that far..
[17:37] t3c.leggo: yeah that's
[17:37] t3c.leggo: just
[17:37] t3c.leggo: incorrect
[17:37] Blind: because they have the skillset to makeup for issues
[17:37] Badgers'R'Us: who are ur 3?
[17:37] Blind: but generally
[17:38] Blind: your rate of influence will be higher with thermo
[17:38] t3c.leggo: also
[17:38] Blind: there are always situations and tactics where remote can be good
[17:38] t3c.leggo: incorrect
[17:38] Moon: id fight thermo over remote every day of the week..
[17:38] t3c.leggo: remote is a skill ceiling plane
[17:38] Moon: what are oyut alking aobut special situations
[17:38] Blind: but your effectiveness with it depends
[17:38] Blind: extremely, comparitively, to your skill with it
[17:38] t3c.leggo: ur effectiveness lies with how well you can master the plane
[17:39] Blind: like you have to have an extremely high skill with it to equalize their effective usage
[17:39] t3c.leggo: what ur saying is that
[17:39] Blind: which is why
[17:39] Blind: i picked 3 players
[17:39] Blind: at that level
[17:39] t3c.leggo: no one should ta because it's a higher skill ceiling plane
[17:39] Blind: that could
[17:39] Badgers'R'Us: doesnt remote rockets do more damage?
[17:39] t3c.leggo: and everyone else should trick
[17:39] Badgers'R'Us: ir is it just my imagination
[17:39] Blind: in theory, it depends
[17:39] t3c.leggo: Depends on
[17:39] Blind: like are you trying to improve and reach that point with the plane, or are you trying to win right n
[17:39] Blind: now
[17:40] Mr. Orange: ...
[17:40] t3c.leggo: with remote?
[17:40] t3c.leggo: you're trying to
[17:40] t3c.leggo: win
[17:40] t3c.leggo: which in turn
[17:40] t3c.leggo: improves ur gameplay
[17:40] Blind: yeah, if you're not at that level with remote, you'd be better off with thermo in ball
[17:40] t3c.leggo: i don't see what you're missing here
[17:40] Blind: in most cases
[17:40] t3c.leggo: ok if you're like
[17:40] t3c.leggo: subbing as a whale
[17:40] t3c.leggo: when you main loopy
[17:40] t3c.leggo: yeah go thermo
[17:40] Blind: and even when you're equal, in most cases you'd still be better thermo
[17:40] t3c.leggo: but if you want to learn to whale
[17:40] t3c.leggo: you should play remote
[17:40] t3c.leggo: that's
[17:40] Moon: wha.. i have the best whale in eu
[17:40] t3c.leggo: 100%
[17:40] t3c.leggo: not true
[17:40] t3c.leggo: Wtf
[17:40] Blind: i dont think so, not if you're trying to be a ball whale
[17:40] t3c.leggo: in practically all cases
[17:41] t3c.leggo: you can do what a thermo can do
[17:41] t3c.leggo: with better tactics in a remote
[17:41] t3c.leggo: it's harder yeah
[17:41] Blind: except you dont have the consistency of that twist
[17:41] t3c.leggo: but you can defend better
[17:41] t3c.leggo: you have the consistent pushing
[17:41] t3c.leggo: you're not making
[17:41] t3c.leggo: any logical points
[17:41] Blind: and moon your remote vs thermo comparison is in 1v1 situations
[17:41] Badgers'R'Us: IMO, it's harder to consistantly defend the goal-line with remote though. If it's a 1v1 thermo is
[17:41] Blind: which is why remote is so strong in tbd
[17:41] Badgers'R'Us: easier
[17:41] t3c.leggo: Remote is strong in ball
[17:41] t3c.leggo: tf r u on
[17:41] t3c.leggo: lol
[17:41] Moon: when scoring you often are 2v1 or 1v1 vs a whale
[17:41] Blind: its ok in ball, but take like woofy for example
[17:41] Badgers'R'Us: easier if you're not good
[17:42] 2/1 Sanis: its alot easier for me to abuse a bad thermo
[17:42] 2/1 Sanis: than a remote
[17:42] Blind: ofc
[17:42] t3c.leggo: ^
[17:42] 2/1 Sanis: but remote skill ceiling may be higher sure
[17:42] t3c.leggo: spoken from
[17:42] t3c.leggo: the offense
[17:42] Badgers'R'Us: you think so?
[17:42] t3c.leggo: himself
[17:42] Blind: ofc in situations
[17:42] Blind: remote is better
[17:42] Blind: but we're talking like a random ladder 6v6
[17:42] Blind: ball game, generally
[17:42] Moon: its still remote
[17:42] t3c.leggo: ^
[17:42] 2/1 Sanis: u can shield a thermo
[17:42] 2/1 Sanis: u cant shield a remote
[17:42] 2/1 Sanis: u can dodge a thermo, a remote mine just pops in ur face
[17:42] 2/1 Sanis: its like rape
[17:42] t3c.leggo: your defense skill ceiling
[17:42] t3c.leggo: is so much higher
[17:42] t3c.leggo: in remote
[17:43] Blind: still talking situations instead of the general makeup of the game
[17:43] 2/1 Sanis: that IS the general gameplay
[17:43] t3c.leggo: yeah by
[17:43] t3c.leggo: Defense
[17:43] Blind: and yes it is higher, but so few people have reached that
[17:43] t3c.leggo: skill ceiling
[17:43] Moon: dude whenever i see regular mines i laugh
[17:43] Blind: which is why i said
[17:43] t3c.leggo: i mean 1v1 situations apparently?
[17:43] Blind: 3 people
[17:43] t3c.leggo: but
[17:43] t3c.leggo: what you're saying is that
[17:43] t3c.leggo: instead of trying to achieve that ceiling
[17:43] Blind: what im saying is
[17:43] Blind: those 2 players
[17:43] t3c.leggo: they should switch to a lower plane
[17:43] Blind: on red right now
[17:43] Blind: if red wanted to win
[17:43] Blind: should be thermo
[17:43] 2/1 Sanis: idk evel is better at remote
[17:43] 2/1 Sanis: than he is at thermo
[17:44] t3c.leggo: you also
[17:44] Blind: maybe on an individual level
[17:44] t3c.leggo: 1. don't know the players
[17:44] t3c.leggo: 2. don't know the gameplay
[17:44] t3c.leggo: 3. aren't thinking about the development of the players themselves
[17:44] t3c.leggo: i wasn't good
[17:44] t3c.leggo: when i started playing remote
[17:44] Badgers'R'Us: so you're saying a long-term minded player should do...?

[leggomyeggo]

[17:44] Blind: like for example matattack is an insane remote but he never really got good at ball
[17:44] t3c.leggo: i just thought it was cool and i saw mata play it
[17:44] Blind: and he sucks at thermo
[17:44] t3c.leggo: long term minded whale should play remote
[17:44] Blind: so i would still want him remote
[17:45] Blind: but if he were to have the ability to shift
[17:45] t3c.leggo: mata wasn't great with ball for a load of different reasons than
[17:45] t3c.leggo: his plane mechanics
[17:45] Blind: i would prob think he'd be more consistent
[17:45] Blind: with thermo
[17:45] XX2: his plane mechanics are
[17:45] XX2: "ok"
[17:45] XX2: inm ball
[17:45] 2/1 Sanis: no, mattattack wouldnt play better with thermo
[17:45] Blind: ya he was a tbd player
[17:45] t3c.leggo: i don't understand
[17:45] XX2: like mat can do everything with remote "ok"
[17:45] Blind: i think he would in ball, if he had ever been able to adjust
[17:45] t3c.leggo: where you're going with this point
[17:46] Blind: but he was never able to adjust
[17:46] 2/1 Sanis: he didn't play the ball well but he killed well, but that's like alot of people
[17:46] Blind: same way he never reached his tbd level in ball
[17:46] Blind: he didnt have the feel
[17:46] t3c.leggo: are you making a point here
[17:46] t3c.leggo: or just talking about matattack
[17:46] Blind: leggo you seem to have difficultly frequently when there are a lot of convos going at once
[17:47] t3c.leggo: what are you talking about
[17:47] t3c.leggo: dude
[17:47] t3c.leggo: are you just going to
[17:47] t3c.leggo: not make a point
[17:47] Blind: i mean you keep getting lost in convos cause im talking to multiple peeps
[17:47] t3c.leggo: and try to insult my ability to multitask in conversations
[17:47] Blind: the point should be easy
[17:47] t3c.leggo: then say it
[17:47] 2/1 Sanis: u never played starcraft leggo, how can u be good at thta
[17:47] t3c.leggo: easily
[17:47] Blind: 99% of players in ball would be better with thermo
[17:47] Moon: lol
[17:47] t3c.leggo: .
[17:47] 2/1 Sanis: lol
[17:47] XX2: thermo is a brain dead perk
[17:48] t3c.leggo: ^
[17:48] 2/1 Sanis: dont make general statements; makes general statement
[17:48] Mr. Orange: thermo is useless against mouse players tho
[17:48] t3c.leggo: uh
[17:48] Blind: what did i say about not making general statements
[17:48] Badgers'R'Us: KB for lyfe
[17:48] Mr. Orange: that is why several people prefer remote
[17:48] Blind: i swear you guys really need to start using the forums because you have so much trouble
[17:48] Blind: with basic convos
[17:48] t3c.leggo: ROFL
[17:48] 2/1 Sanis: uh
[17:48] XX2: k
[17:48] t3c.leggo: I'M
[17:48] t3c.leggo: CRYING
[17:48] Moon: if we moved this conversation to the forums
[17:48] Badgers'R'Us: blind throwing shade
[17:48] Moon: we would get so many new posts every dya
[17:48] t3c.leggo: you keep
[17:49] Moon: instead of 2-3
[17:49] t3c.leggo: not countering my points
[17:49] 2/1 Sanis: make the forums great again
[17:49] t3c.leggo: and instead
[17:49] t3c.leggo: go back to insulting our intelligence
[17:49] Moon: give me the pros
[17:49] Badgers'R'Us: now i cant whale too slefconscious
[17:49] Blind: except you heard me and you keep saying you dont
[17:49] t3c.leggo: how about listing a valid point for once
[17:49] Blind: sigh
[17:49] t3c.leggo: i heard what you said
[17:49] TheCapedAvenger: omg
[17:49] 2/1 Sanis: ur not 2011 leggo, u dont know what youre saying
[17:49] 2/1 Sanis: 2016 leggo is stupid
[17:49] t3c.leggo: lmao
[17:49] t3c.leggo: it's the alcoholism
[17:49] Mr. Orange: lol lag
[17:49] TheCapedAvenger: spec chat
[17:49] t3c.leggo: brain cells dead
[17:50] Blind: again another point i never made because you lose track of **** that was said
[17:50] t3c.leggo: brb gonna
[17:50] t3c.leggo: Save this part of my chat log
[17:50] /xi


tl;dr:
1. vip says that there are only 3 people who can play remote whale effectively right now (EDIT, forgot to include who: woofy, mata, and xx2)
2. everyone else in the server argues against that point
3. vip fails to make any valid point that's not refuted by someone else in the server
4. vip resorts to attempting to insult my intelligence and inability to debate by telling me i can't keep track of multiple conversations at once
5. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6hx1nXe41A

[XX1]

Is this how we are gonna make the forums great again

Comparing these two perks isn't really fair imo Director vs Remote Mine would be better

TL;DR of thermobarics / remote mine: Thermo is kind of hard to **** up, remote is really easy to **** up.

Remote Mine has a very high skill ceiling but it also has a high skill floor. (Close with Time Anchor here as the highest in the game imo)
Thermobarics has a very low skill floor and a not really high skill ceiling. Picking up the basics of thermo is very easy compared to remote.

The Thermobarics missile is very straight forward: Press F to shoot, press F again to detonate when the missile is very close to the enemy. Remote Mine/Director complicates this process a lot. GUESS WHAT, NOW YOU HAVE AIM YOUR MISSILE BETTER, DECIDE WHETHER STALLING/BOOSTING/SLAMMING IS BEST, AND CONSIDER LAG SO YOU DON'T BOOST THE MF - all in the moment.

Remote Mine is one of the most micro intensive perks in the game (Similar to Time Anchor?). Thermobarics is silly stupid easy. AI controlled mines that detonate on contact and chase, twisting missiles versus a human controlled mine with no AI chasing or detonation on contact that you have to ^read caps lock above^ and missiles that you have to ^read caps lock above^.

You don't have to be good at Explodet to be effective with Thermobarics, but you have to have a ****ing clue when using Remote Mine.

I think there are more than just 3 players who can play remote in ladder effectively

Matattack: My boyfriend Matattack has like the most hours on Remote Mine (and Explodet?) out of any player in altitude. He can do every part of remote mine in ball ok. I'd tell a new person to watch someone like mat to just learn the basics of the perk and also tell them that you can do pretty much everything he does but better.
I don't know if I have ever seen him have any crazy performances. He doesn't really have games like this

His missile stalling is/was the most consistent overall I think. His mine hopping is worth noting since that mechanic hardly gets used in ball, and pretty much never by thermo/director players. It's just very standard, consistent play mostly? you may be asking, "is that bad?" well, kinda. With the amount of time and work Matattack has put into his plane he should be a ridiculous god and not even worth comparing to the rest of the Remote Mine/Explodet players. He isn't though and worse than woofy and myself. I'm pretty biased though

Woofy: My boyfriend Woofy, actually I haven't seen this bic play Explodet since SL semifinals. From what I remember/taught though he played more of the traditional "defensive" Explodet kind of like how mat plays and I used to. Just overall better than mat, but I've never seen the guy do any mine hopping. That's so not hot k?

XX2: D U N K


HEY
YOU
WACHYA GOIN DO

[VipMattMan]

Originally Posted by leggomyeggo

tl;dr:
1. vip says that there are only 3 people who can play remote whale effectively right now (EDIT, forgot to include who: woofy, mata, and xx2)
2. everyone else in the server argues against that point
3. vip fails to make any valid point that's not refuted by someone else in the server
4. vip resorts to attempting to insult my intelligence and inability to debate by telling me i can't keep track of multiple conversations at once

I mean, when you have every single person who was pro-remote also saying it's a high skill-set plane, telling me repeatedly that you don't get the point as if anything was refudiated is just getting silly. It's right there on display. Effectively every point made could have been "countered" by simply repeating the same thing over and over again, back and forth for eternity. Nothing said ever nullified anything I said.

There are very very few people in ball who are actually better off with remote than they are thermo. You can play whatever you want. I play remote for the fun of it too, but I'm not under the illusion that it's superior to thermo on a frequent-case basis in ball, in ladder.

The effective mechanical and tactical usage of the plane in ladder by 95% of the userbase is extremely low, and extremely prone to mistakes being exacerbated, in conditions which thermo serves a similar effective usage, lower mechanical requirement, and far lower risk. The difference in risk is significant enough that even with people who are much closer to the skill-cap of remote, in most conditions I'd still prefer them as thermo. However, due to the tactical potential of it, I think those people can make that assertion in regards to likelihood of it increasing their odds of winning the game.

There are always fringe cases of anything. Circumstantial, tactical, and skill based.

Circumstantially you might wish you were remote in 1v1 situations where it notably has an advantage over thermo. There are other situations where people would rather face a thermo than go against a remote. I don't think the scale of those circumstances or others like it out pace those of more frequent cases in ball where the team would have been better served by players using thermo.

Tactically you may want a thermo and a remote to create inconsistency of expectation for the other team and for other various benefits. That's fine, especially in league play where there's more organization. I just think there are very few people in ladder who are making that decision well in relation to their own skill level and in regards to the larger strategic conditions of the current game on the fly.

As for the circumstances where someone is simply better with remote than they are with thermo, I allowed for that when I mentioned Matattack, who has pretty high range mechanics with remote and unfortunately never really got the feel for thermo in ball. Others, like Evel, I expect would be better served with thermo unless their thermo play is just that much lower than their remote play. Not too long after you guys mentioned him as an example, he boosted two people into the goal in one game.

Insulting your ability to discern the argument came from two things. The first thing, again, was that the point was obvious, and in fact made by effectively everyone regardless of their position in the argument. Remote is a high skill-cap plane. Either you believe enough people have the skill to use it properly or you don't. From there it's just pure conjecture. It should be obvious where I believe people's general skill with the plane lay. If you want me to analyze your personal capability with it, as it compares to with thermo, against the greater scheme of Ball Ladder, then I can try to pay more attention to you, but I make no promises.

The second reason I slightly went off on you keeping up with the argument, is that it's becoming a daily occurrence that you and several others have a habit of trying to engage me on various things based on perceived slights, and as other people come in and out of the argument, believing that something has been said or done, various strawman arguments begin to take place, discussion diverges, and I end up engaged with 5 different people who all think they're on the same side but may not be, engaged in their own arguments, thinking that something I've said or done has nullified something else. Worse than that I may be responding to someone else and then someone thinks I was talking to them and then I have to explain something else all over again. Add on a person who won't even acknowledge an obvious point, who has continuously called me egotistical simply because I have strong opinions that sometimes go against the current grain, and it gets tiring.

You can do whatever you want to do. You can think what you want to. I simply don't agree with you. I think the majority of ball ladder would be better served using thermo. The only way that stance will change is the same way I formed the opinion in the first place. I have to see something different. You wanna say it's all due to my incapability to properly perceive the game, then so be it. More power to you.

I'm tryin' to focus more on my 2016 Make Mattman Great Again tour than arguing all the time. It's hard cause I enjoy this kinda thing, but I'm trying to cool it.

[Winters Ark]

Originally Posted by VipMattMan

There are very very few people in ball who are actually better off with remote than they are thermo.

The effective mechanical and tactical usage of the plane in ladder by 95% of the userbase is extremely low, and extremely prone to mistakes being exacerbated, in conditions which thermo serves a similar effective usage, lower mechanical requirement, and far lower risk. The difference in risk is significant enough that even with people who are much closer to the skill-cap of remote, in most conditions I'd still prefer them as thermo.

Circumstantially you might wish you were remote in 1v1 situations where it notably has an advantage over thermo. There are other situations where people would rather face a thermo than go against a remote. I don't think the scale of those circumstances or others like it out pace those of more frequent cases in ball where the team would have been better served by players using thermo.

As for the circumstances where someone is simply better with remote than they are with thermo, I allowed for that when I mentioned Matattack, who has pretty high range mechanics with remote and unfortunately never really got the feel for thermo in ball. Others, like Evel, I expect would be better served with thermo unless their thermo play is just that much lower than their remote play. Not too long after you guys mentioned him as an example, he boosted two people into the goal in one game.

The first two points above are plain wrong and show how disconnected you are from the playerbase. There are actually very few players currently that I'd rather have as Thermo than Remote. Void is the only player I can think of off hand that I'd prefer as Thermo over Remote. Clam, Evel, DDP, Brutal, hell even P1 I'd rather have as Remote. There are more maps and situations where a good Thermo just isn't effective at all, especially since all the new maps that Van added to ladder before the last SL. Too many maps these days are extremely open and have multiple flank routes with no cover for the whale to use effectively. Add on the fact that Thermo is pretty much useless against a shield and you get a bunch of really ****ty situations as Thermo.

The good players in ladder know how to work around a Thermo effectively, whereas the bad players (and some mousers) get absolutely destroyed by Thermo. But again the problem arises: a good player needs to be hit with either the missile+mine combo from Thermo or they need to be hit 2-3 times with a Thermo missile to kill them. Both propose different problems depending on the situation so unless you have help from you team or you're a god Thermo is going to be ineffective against good players most of the time.

You're also completely ignoring the fact that players use ladder to get better quite often. People that are competent with a plane and want to get better at it hop in ladder to learn more. Remember when Mulu first joined and started TAing? At first he was a ****ing terrible TA and if you got him on your team it was pretty much an auto loss. Everyone was really mad at him for quite a while, but as time went on he got much better, and became one of the better Randas in bladder. Just because Evel boosted players that allowed for two goals doesn't mean he is bad or that he should switch to Thermo. It means he made a mistake and misjudged the lag. Learning from your mistakes and correcting them for next time is what good players do. Evel is actually a pretty decent Remote, and I'd rather have him on my team playing Remote than Don playing rubber whale.

[VipMattMan]

Originally Posted by Winters Ark

You're also completely ignoring the fact that players use ladder to get better quite often. People that are competent with a plane and want to get better at it hop in ladder to learn more.

I'm not going to respond to most of the rest of your post, because we're getting into heavily opinion based things and everyone will have their own, and my post already represents how I feel in that regard.

I will however clarify one main thing, and that is that I'm not suggesting people not play whatever the hell they want to play. People can play rev on my team for all I care. I mostly made a "there are way too many remote players now" observation while speccing as a general statement, in regards to the belief that most people are tryharding to win right now and I think they'd be better off with thermo if that's the case.

You'll probably see me playing remote too, because I find it fun to play and I constantly test to see if I can find the right combination of factors in different conditions to get things going. Like I said, I'm not closed to different thoughts, trying different things, being proven wrong or proving myself wrong.

Your thoughts on the current selection of maps are interesting. I've always felt like remote was more effective in closed in maps than open maps (in regards to the missile), because it's harder to "miss" and put someone where you don't want them or end up doing nothing at all, and pushing/zoning is significantly easier. Maybe others feel differently about it.

[Winters Ark]

Originally Posted by VipMattMan

I've always felt like remote was more effective in closed in maps than open maps (in regards to the missile), because it's harder to "miss" and put someone where you don't want them or end up doing nothing at all, and pushing/zoning is significantly easier. Maybe others feel differently about it.

It has always been a fact that Remote is better in open maps whereas Thermo is better in more constrained spaces with lots of walls. A map like Maze is amazing for Thermo, whereas Cross is much better for Remote. A Thermo generally has a harder time getting kills in more open maps because it relies on making people crash with their missiles. In more open maps they have to rely more on the missile+mine combo or hitting people multiple times with their missile to kill them. Remote is amazing in every map because it doesn't necessarily need a tight map to kill enemies. Stalling them is generally enough to either prevent them from being useful for the next 10 seconds or will allow your teammates to clean up the kill. This is Whale 101.

[leggomyeggo]

Originally Posted by VipMattMan

I mean, when you have every single person who was pro-remote also saying it's a high skill-set plane, telling me repeatedly that you don't get the point as if anything was refudiated is just getting silly. It's right there on display. Effectively every point made could have been "countered" by simply repeating the same thing over and over again, back and forth for eternity. Nothing said ever nullified anything I said.

i understand that it's a high skill-set plane, i've been playing it since the game mode was added back in 2009. but, just because it's a high skill set plane doesn't mean that 95% of ladder shouldn't play it. this is what you're failing to get across to me. as ark has already gone into detail with (thx bud), there actually are quite a few players that play remote far more effectively than they would thermo.

in my opinion, remote is the ultimate defensive perk. if you want to learn how to become a defensive whale, you should be playing remote. that's not to discredit anyone playing thermo, you can still impact your team while using thermo, but explicitly as a defensively minded player, remote is better. void, in particular, does extremely well in ball as a thermo, but that's because he's a very offensive whale. which is why he and i always clicked so well: i could lay back and defend while he pushed, but i still had a cushion of that second whale to fall back on if i died and needed someone to defend. with remote whale, you can control their offense. you can push them where you want them to go and block lanes that you don't want them to cut through. so let's go ahead and stop saying that we're playing remote "for the fun of it". i play remote because i know that with a little bit of support, i can control their push and stop them on a dime. i also play it because i'm good at it, and i'm much more effective with it than i would be with thermo.

this isn't about fringe cases or random 1v1 situations (even though that does make up a good chunk of defensive strategy), what i'm talking about is defense in its most general definition.

Originally Posted by VipMattMan

If you want me to analyze your personal capability with it, as it compares to with thermo, against the greater scheme of Ball Ladder, then I can try to pay more attention to you, but I make no promises.

i honestly don't value your current opinion on my capabilities very highly right now, so don't bother.

Originally Posted by VipMattMan

The second reason I slightly went off on you keeping up with the argument, is that it's becoming a daily occurrence that you and several others have a habit of trying to engage me on various things based on perceived slights, and as other people come in and out of the argument, believing that something has been said or done, various strawman arguments begin to take place, discussion diverges, and I end up engaged with 5 different people who all think they're on the same side but may not be, engaged in their own arguments, thinking that something I've said or done has nullified something else. Worse than that I may be responding to someone else and then someone thinks I was talking to them and then I have to explain something else all over again. Add on a person who won't even acknowledge an obvious point, who has continuously called me egotistical simply because I have strong opinions that sometimes go against the current grain, and it gets tiring.

if you want to talk about why you end up getting in all these arguments on a daily basis, that's a topic for another thread

[VipMattMan]

Originally Posted by leggomyeggo

i understand that it's a high skill-set plane, i've been playing it since the game mode was added back in 2009. but, just because it's a high skill set plane doesn't mean that 95% of ladder shouldn't play it. this is what you're failing to get across to me. as ark has already gone into detail with (thx bud), there actually are quite a few players that play remote far more effectively than they would thermo.

this isn't about fringe cases or random 1v1 situations (even though that does make up a good chunk of defensive strategy), what i'm talking about is defense in its most general definition.

There's a huge difference between theory and application. In theory lots of this sounds great. The reality, to me, is that most of the players I see using the perk misuse the plane in application to a large enough extent that I think they would be better off with thermo.

There are tons of trade offs between risk/skill/strategy, and I place enough weight on the risk/skill aspect that I think an "above average" remote's risk offsets the tactical and applied usage, in regards to immediate success in ball ladder.

We can go back and forth on this until we're blue in the face. I simply don't think people's ability with the perk in MOST cases is so abstracted from thermo that they wouldn't have success with it after adjusting over a few days, while I do think their risk with remote offsets their tactical intention and lowers their value with the plane.

I just don't agree with you guys on the perceived skill level of most of the people using the perk vs the risk. It's a judgement call and it's obvious we're not going to agree on it.

Originally Posted by leggomyeggo

if you want to talk about why you end up getting in all these arguments on a daily basis, that's a topic for another thread

Was responding to #4 on your second post.

[Winters Ark]

Originally Posted by VipMattMan

There's a huge difference between theory and application. In theory lots of this sounds great. The reality, to me, is that most of the players I see using the perk misuse the plane in application to a large enough extent that I think they would be better off with thermo.

There are tons of trade offs between risk/skill/strategy, and I place enough weight on the risk/skill aspect that I think an "above average" remote's risk offsets the tactical and applied usage, in regards to immediate success in ball ladder.

We can go back and forth on this until we're blue in the face. I simply don't think people's ability with the perk in MOST cases is so abstracted from thermo that they wouldn't have success with it after adjusting over a few days, while I do think their risk with remote offsets their tactical intention and lowers their value with the plane.

I just don't agree with you guys on the perceived skill level of most of the people using the perk vs the risk. It's a judgement call and it's obvious we're not going to agree on it.

There are plenty of times when I use Thermo on certain maps where it's pretty good but just can't seem to get kills. Those are the times I switch to Remote and start destroying people. Other times I get some of the most ridiculous kills with Thermo that save the game. The more time passes the more people learn how to play around Thermo, which means Thermo is effectively weaker over time. This is the fact of the matter. What you're saying is you want people to play a perk that is effectively weaker, and a perk that they may not have a whole lot of experience with, because you don't see them having the ability to get better. That's why we don't agree with it and also part of the reason why you're so disconnected with both the meta and the playerbase.

[VipMattMan]

Originally Posted by Winters Ark

There are plenty of times when I use Thermo on certain maps where it's pretty good but just can't seem to get kills. Those are the times I switch to Remote and start destroying people. Other times I get some of the most ridiculous kills with Thermo that save the game. The more time passes the more people learn how to play around Thermo, which means Thermo is effectively weaker over time. This is the fact of the matter. What you're saying is you want people to play a perk that is effectively weaker, and a perk that they may not have a whole lot of experience with, because you don't see them having the ability to get better. That's why we don't agree with it and also part of the reason why you're so disconnected with both the meta and the playerbase.

I don't want people to do anything. At the end of the day I don't care what people do. It's an observation that I believe to be true. At no point have I said anyone should never try to get better at a hard plane. I might suggest that they not all do it at the exact same time, but again I don't really care.

There are lots of times that one feels way better than the other, and playing at an ideal max people would be able to make judgement calls that were within their skillful capability and switch between the two on the fly, as I've suggested the people that are closer to the skill-cap of remote are able to do more effectively (besides mata). Also factoring in here is people's ability to discard temporary anecdotal evidence of performance and make those choices rationally in accordance to overall performance.

As for your proclamations that I just don't get the meta or the players, I personally think that's baseless.

If we're to believe that ladder is a moderately accurate measurement of skill, as far as I can tell for the past two seasons pure thermo players have far and away been more frequently higher placed than the pure remote players. Most of the top players that sometimes use remote subsidize it with other planes, including and frequently preferring thermo when they play whale.

If remote is such a superior perk in this meta, and pure remote players have such a good hold on it, shouldn't you much more frequently see them competing at the top rungs of ladder vs the pure thermo players? I seriously don't think it's a matter of the number of players doing one vs the other. I see tons of people primarily using remote.

You can probably better identify the players that do purely one or the other than I can:

https://planeball.com/ranked/beta/season-4/

https://planeball.com/ranked/gold/

[Brutal]

#makeremotegreatagain

[Slender]

Matt can you be my thesis adviser? I have 23TB of info gathered on this.

Thank you for considering.

[TAYLOOP]

spec chat guys