APL - Complaint.

[classicallad]

Wasn't sure where to post this as I wasn't certain that a forum admin would deem this 'pertinent league information'.

I'm making a public complaint about the silly nickname rule which could potentially have handed T3C a U-turn to their final standings for this initial part of APL 13.

Just want to announce that this is not an emotional response to the reaction of T3C and Leggo in particular as there is no love loss between me and them.

As pointed out in another thread, we are a small community and like or dislike personality-wise we all just muck together and hopefully create good content in game.

This can't continue if admins are enforcing silly rules that may I point out aren't even outlined in the APL rules sticky posted by Andy.

I quote:

Forfeit
- You must show up with at least 4 players to play a game, the other team can then decide if they want to play 5v4 or 4v4.
- If you show up with less than 4 players and the other team isnt willing to reschedule they will automatically win the match with the best score possible.

If altitude was serious business and a lawyer oversaw this matter, rich pockets would T3C have.

For a diplomatic solution to this almost non existent problem please see a copy of my post in the T3C thread:

This is plain silly, i would like a rematch.

I don't get what people's problem with nicks is anyway. It's 5 players versus 5 players and the best 5 win. The server logs can identify people via their vapour ID's anyway. IMO scrap the silly nick rule and admins can grant a forfit if a vapour ID doesn't check out.

Surely then we should be posting our nicks as most people know them to be plus vapour ID's for admin purposes on the registration thread.

gj admins for tainting APL.

sheesh


Not in any way trying to stir up drama but it'd be helpful if the community could give their thoughts on this.

Cheers.

[wolf'j'max]

Just to clarify, I wanted to play the games, I had no reason to take a forfeit win there. Pretty sure I made that clear as well.

Regardless, it's not that hard to abide to a rule as simple as keep your nickname the same as the one you registered with. It's only 1 day in the week. Just because it's a small community and everyone knows each other etc. etc. doesn't make you entitled to just **** all over someone else's work to create another APL. Vanishing's going out of his way to set up some sort of system with nicknames if I'm correct, Ark's organizing this APL. How hard can it be to just abide to such a simple rule?

[VAN1SH1NG]

Personally I agree with the rule except it is not very feasible because of the limitation of one nickname change every 24 hours. It should still be easy to abide by the rule, but it is understandable if one or two people forget each week and change their nick within 24 hours of APL.

We can't really except everyone to have a backup alt account and while you can level one up relatively quickly to like 20-30 and have a decent selection of perks, it does take awhile to hit 60. And then when all these alt accounts get used, without getting linked, it messes up the stats (even if having accurate stats for this APL season probably doesn't really matter much).

It probably would be easier to change the APL rule to be the same as the ladder rule, so that only you can't use another players name. Players will be less likely to break the rule since they can't change to an illegal ladder nick on Saturday / Sunday morning without getting kicked from ladder too.

[classicallad]

Fair point but its equally as effective tracking Vapour ID's, that way people can have fun with their nicks like they always have done since the dawn of time.

[classicallad]

Wow 27 views and 2 replies. Grow some balls guys lol

[VAN1SH1NG]

Originally Posted by classicallad

Fair point but its equally as effective tracking Vapour ID's, that way people can have fun with their nicks like they always have done since the dawn of time.

Ark is doing this not to prevent fun. He is doing this to remove the competitive advantage of not knowing who players are, especially when a clan purposely changes all of their nicks to things like '??', '???'. '???', etc. The ladder rule suggestion will of course not help with random nicks like that though.

We can tell fairly easily who players are for the purpose of making sure only players registered for a clan play for that clan. The rule has nothing to do with that.

[Brutal]

Originally Posted by classicallad

Fair point but its equally as effective tracking Vapour ID's, that way people can have fun with their nicks like they always have done since the dawn of time.

Vapors are just for the account. It doesn't tell you who's on the account. I know a few people were using other people's alternate accounts. It's hard to track who is who when everyone joins with a same account. It's hard to track who is who since it says everyone has played with that IP Adress with that account. I think that's another reason Vanishing wants to link the accounts. For example, let's say I played on XX2's account and he played on mine. If you checked our IPs they would say the same thing. So you would never know. Vanishing would be the only one that could actually check the current IP.

[Raja]

Originally Posted by classicallad

Wow 27 views and 2 replies. Grow some balls guys lol

[classicallad]

Wait people actually do that?

Am i being naive?

Also just to clarify; are you saying the reason the rule is in place is so we can gather statistics?

Back in the day when APL was alive and kicking I allowed flb to recruit Cloud for their last 2 games against us because we wanted to play against as stronger team as possible. Don't think it actually was Cloud either, not that we cared. Admins didn't even bat an eyelid and it improved the experience for all.

@ Van1, maybe i'm in a minority maybe not about not caring who the 5 people i'm playing against are and more less their nicknames.

@Brutal, so what? All that means is if you suck you make XX2 look bad, doesn't make any difference to me as an opponent.

I'm still struggling to get this, i don't see any conflict.

When I play I want to play against 5 very good players, I couldn't give a monkey's what their nick is or who the human is pressing the keys.

[VAN1SH1NG]

I just said what the rule was for "He is doing this to remove the competitive advantage of not knowing who players are, especially when a clan purposely changes all of their nicks to things like '??', '???'. '???', etc.", which is not stats.

Ark gave an example in the registration thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAR_6BNMtmQ

This type of behavior is done by one clan in almost every season.

There are people who care enough to do this to gain a competitive advantage and also people who care about knowing the players they are playing against. If one or two players pick some random nick you can usually manage to remember who they are, but when most of team purposefully goes changes their nick to cause confusion it is hard to keep track of who they are.

You may not care who players are, but certainly you are always at a disadvantage when you don't know who a player is.

[Mr Nice]

This wasnt the first time the members in team t3c had been arguing with the admins about the name rule though. It happend in preseason and the member or members that broke the rule yesterday was present and actively playing in APL preseason last sunday so he or they knew about the rules hence why team t3c made a change in their APL roster as you can see in the registration thread. You need to take this into acount.

[Mr Nice]

And yes it can be easy to forget and then it is a question about acceptence, and by whom? Should I who forgot about the rule accept the consequences or should the admins accept my mistake? It is a give and take, we sometimes forget to give our respect to the rules, to the admins and to others perhaps?

[classicallad]

I do not in any way see myself at a disadvantage by not knowing who is who, you maybe, but not I, hence my position.

Also that link you sent, which team won? I'm guessing Red team hence the rule.

What I am getting at is that people attribute the win down to nicknames rather than the game.

I've played all my ladder/APL games recently with nicknames suppressed and have done just fine.

How does that fit in with your psychology or am I just in a small minority here?

[Knipchip]

I agree that the TBD experience, vanishing and classless as it currently is, is supposed to cast a gloom over everything else, including rules that are meant to improve fairness. APL is the withered hand protruding from a hallowed grave. Wouldn't only wolves brutally maul the dead? Anyone would do well acting a bit nicer among these forsaken halls, unless you have no opinion (certain French specimen knows who I am excluding here.)

I think most players agree that quality games are all that matter at this point. I wasn't there, but a rematch feels like a no-brainer here. My opinion, however, is that changing nicknames to gain an advantage is simply egregious, but it seems to me like more of a matter of taste. Anyone can do it so it isn't necessarily bad or unfair. Besides, as class quoted, is it even a rule for APL?

[Moon]

Well even though I'm not in APL, since there was a call-out for guys just reading...

Unlike classicallad I do feel like I am at a disadvantage if I dont know who is playing. I for one can't just play 'my own game' with every guy I face off against, at least not entirely, and have to switch it up a bit by doing stuff like being more bold or defensive with my engagements with them. I would imagine that there others like that as well, so either in APL or SL I'm in favour of having some rules in place to deter unnecessary nickname changes.

Features like /nicknames works to a degree when only having to check out a few players, but if there are too many, and there is subbing in and out going on it can quickly become exceedingly difficult to commit everyones current and original names to memory, especially if they start switching planes mid-game as well...

That said as with many other complaints made in the past regarding the rules in leagues or ladder, I think they can be avoided if there is some leeway given when it comes to people 'breaking' these rules. To begin with these rules are supposed to be fixing issues, not creating them. If the majority of the team has recognisable names and there are one or two guys 'breaking' the rules it is well within bounds of reason to allow the games to go ahead as it does not in any major way impact the faireness of the game. If there is a pattern emerging and the admins can detect malicious/trolly intent behind people balancing on the gray line of good and wrong as outlined by the rules they can go ahead and deal with it, but still allow this gray area to exist. As others already poitned out mistakes happen and this is too small of a community to be going down with the full force of the "law" on the offenders. Most people want to simply play the best games the community can muster up so there is no point on technicalities stopping them. You can only manage to anger everyone by having them wait for who knows how long simply to get the game canceled on something that the majority cant even perceive as unfair, but the rules outlawing it.

I have something to say about the rules quotes by class:
---
Forfeit
- You must show up with at least 4 players to play a game, the other team can then decide if they want to play 5v4 or 4v4.
- If you show up with less than 4 players and the other team isnt willing to reschedule they will automatically win the match with the best score possible.
---

Now I understand that teams rescheduling causes various issues for people participating in it, as well as people managing the league, potential extensions to the duration of the league, etc. etc. Nonetheless I think the teams should be allowed one or two reschedules (overal) before the other teams (or league manager) can force them to forfeit the match.

[Winters Ark]

The nickname rule, as well as the tag rule, are new rules to help make things more fair and to prevent confusion. As it has already been stated the nickname rule was put in place to prevent players from purposely gaining a competitive advantage.

Let me give you an example: let's say you're playing against Dragon, ssd, Clapon, tpain, and rdm. All of them change their name to something extremely similar, like a barcode. The only way to tell them apart is to either memorize all of their names, use the /nick function, or to write them all down and reference it when necessary. This means that you don't know who you're fighting against in any given situation: when you're fighting a bomber it could be Clap or it could be tpain; and when you're fighting a randa it could be either ssd, Dragon, or rdm. The way you'd approach each of these players differs depending on who they are, the situation you're both currently in, and their playstyle. You wouldn't attack Dragon the same way you'd attack rdm or ssd, and vice versa.

This is why the nickname rule was put in place. People were given ample time to read the rules and ask any questions if they had any. Honestly, I don't care if people want to troll with nicks, just as long as you can easily determine who is who. If I bend the rules for one team I have to bend the rules for all teams. I didn't want to forfeit the games against RD or KLF, but my team decided they didn't want to listen to anyone. They put in players that didn't have correct nicks despite multiple warnings that it would result in a forfeit. A few people threw a hissy fit because they didn't want to follow the rules and save a nick change for one day a week. They also didn't want to listen to Van when he said he was linking accounts.

I have been on both sides of this before. I've been on the team changing their nicks to troll the rest for a week, and I have been the team playing against the trolls. Sometimes it's in good taste and quite fun, but most of the time it's frustrating and annoying. Multiple people complained about what Ball did last SL with their nicks, and for good reason. Before I took over as head admin for APL and SL I had already decided that I didn't want to see that **** again.

[classicallad]

Fair enough, I see your points. So if T3C agree to fall into line with this rule from henceforth can we replay the 2nd game to make it fair? Obviously I can't speak for KLF and I have no idea weather or not my own team are behind me on this but I'd sure as hell prefer to win by winning as opposed to forefitting.

[sunshineduck]

there are 4 (3?) teams in the entire league. if you can't prevent 4 teams from abusing names for a competitive advantage with 3 admins (each of them on a different team) why bother hosting a tournament?

acting like you had to make this rule change for the betterment of the game is silly and just makes you look petty af

[Winters Ark]

There were eight teams last SL with five admins, including yourself ssd, and they didn't stop {ball} from abusing nicknames. The number of teams, nor the number of admins, has anything to do with it. This has been going on for years and no admin has seriously stepped in to stop it from happening. That has now changed. The rule was made for a reason: that reason is it gives an unfair competitive advantage to one side. Look at any other tournament in any other game; it's only in Altitude that you have people complaining that you have to play under the nickname you registered under. It's absolutely absurd that this rule had to be made in the first place.

The players in Altitude have a really poor attitude when it comes to rules these days. No one cares for the rules in ladder or league play, and haven't for quite some time. The rules exist for a reason, and are meant to be followed. If people don't want to follow the rules then they will face the consequences. At no point have I said that people can't change their nicks: all I've said is that people must play under the nick they signed up with. If it is too difficult to keep your nick change for one day then play under an alt. If you don't want to do either then don't play. It's that simple.

As for the proposal, class: if the teams in question agree to it, and teams start abiding by the rule, then I'll make an exception this one time. It left a poor taste in everyone's mouth. As a competitor I'd like to see the best team come out on top; as an admin I understand that this may take some getting use to. I'll be staying out of the decision on t3c's side, though. So I'll say it once again clearly: if the teams in question (t3c, [RD], and KLF) agree to it, and teams start abiding by the rules, the matches between t3c/[RD] and t3c/KLF can be replayed as if it was rescheduled.

[tomato man]

Originally Posted by sunshineduck

there are 4 (3?) teams in the entire league. if you can't prevent 4 teams from abusing names for a competitive advantage with 3 admins (each of them on a different team) why bother hosting a tournament?

acting like you had to make this rule change for the betterment of the game is silly and just makes you look petty af

I think Wolf said all. The rule isnt dumb as you said, and it's made to make games more enjoyable. I dont have problems with 1 or 2 players having strange names, but when a whole team uses similar nicknames it gets hard to understand who is who. Considering Ark its organizing APL, we should just respect a simple new useful rule ( even if you think it's stupid) and have fun.

And also thanks Ark for organizing APL and we shouldn't make problems about a simple rule that isn't gonna ruin your games.

[wolf'j'max]

Originally Posted by sunshineduck

acting like you had to make this rule change for the betterment of the game is silly and just makes you look petty af

Acting like this simple rule preventing you from changing your name is going to kill all the fun of the game, is petty af.

[sunshineduck]

In the skyleague match you are discussing the head admin and organizer of the league was on {ball} so I did not have the authority to singularly override his decision even if I wanted to, which I wouldn't have anyway because I don't care about whatever competitive advantage is gained from it.

If the rule was banning a team wide name change to gain a competitive advantage then nobody would care either. You constantly contest a point that nobody is arguing against. The issue arose because t3c wanted to use completely harmless names just for fun. Not being able to have fun with nicknames isn't the end of the world and not once did I imply I even cared about the rule either (note that both I and my entire team have been playing under our registered nicks the entire tournament) but why even raise a fuss over LAMARRA and croiboi? What purpose are you serving by threatening to disqualify a team for using those nicks and how do they violate the spirit of the rule?

I just don't get why you have to be so stubborn about things like people are constantly breaking minor rules just to mess with tournament organizers. Do I want teams to start barcoding for a competitive advantage? Obviously not, and neither does anyone else posting in the threads about the issue. The reason there is a fuss about it is because the rule that you created to solve an actual problem is being enforced to combat a different issue that is nonexistent.

I feel like I shouldn't even have to write about why saying "rules exist for a reason" as a defense for a rule existing is silly.

[ex~]

this whole thing is so dumb. there are what like 40 - 50 players left in this community? BOTH sides are being petty.

class / leggo / myself come from the stone of old players where people who smurf and it was no big deal, Lindqvro anybody? fake BG1? and honestly it was a lot of fun because it made the games better in my personal opinion.

i can also see why the rule exists to prevent unknown teams, i guess that's personal preference, i could care less if i did not know who i was playing against. heck, one might even play better if they were unaware that their opponents are supposedly better than them.

i will say that these rules are more applicable to a game that has a competitive scene, this game unfortunately does not and has not for a while. i seem to gather that most people just wanted to get a group of good games in, and it's unfortunate that even with a measly 4 teams, that some people could not play over a nickname lol.

[Ingbo]

i personally think its annoying not being able to recognize whos playing under what nickname, rly dont see what the big deal is having to keep an offical name 1 day of the week, its not like its during random dates that ppl dont know beforehand. either way i dont really give a f*** if ppl arent going to play if they cant have w/e nicknames then sure go ahead, think its pretty silly to make this big a deal out of it tho... inb4 tons of hate.