Problems and Solutions

[lamsbro]

Purpose of this post is just to describe some problems I see with current gameplay, present potential solutions, and get everyone's opinions.

Problem: When no one has the bomb the game play feels boring and directionless. You can kill people or get killed but it doesn't really matter.

Possible Solution: More meaningful subgoals. Stars are a subgoal, but they don't really do much and discourage you from taking risks (which is in conflict with the risky main goal of landing bombs on the enemy base). A good subgoal should have the following properties: it encourages or facilitates the completion of the main goal (destroying the enemy base, something the current star system actually does the opposite of, because attacking the base is a very good way of losing bars, not gaining them), and makes the non-bomb period more meaningful (probably by making kills and deaths meaningful).

One possibility: bombs don't spawn, they have to be earned. For example, if you kill 3 enemy planes, you can go back to base and pick up a bomb.

Or: stars make your plane much stronger than currently (so that they matter) and you only lose a portion of your exp when you die, not all of it (so that risk is punished less) and damaging bases is a better source of exp (perhaps it provides both more exp, and more permanent exp? Maybe death only causes you to lose 1/4 of the exp you got from base damage for example. Those of you paying attention may notice this tends to make the winning team stronger, and could possibly lead to a feedback effect where the guys winning just get so much stronger than the guys that are losing that there's no point for the losers to continue. This wouldn't be good, but I am yet to see a feedback loop of this sort in altitude, and I think one of the reasons why is because its so easy even for a 5 star plane to be killed. As long as the losing team has a reasonable possibility of killing these experienced planes, and in so doing reversing the advantage (by transfering exp from experienced winning plane to losing plane that killed it), the game's outcome is not inevitable. I think there's a lot of room for making stars or some other exp bonus system more meaningful without stepping into the dreaded feedback loop.

Problem: Picking up the bomb is the worst thing you can possibly do if you want bars, suddenly you are a giant target, your team has little incentive to protect you (in fact they have a disincentive, since protecting the bomber is exceptionally dangerous), even if you do manage to land the bomb which is very unlikely, your chance of surviving after the bomb lands is even more infintessimaly small. By picking up the bomb you are sacrificing your exp and your ratio for your team. This is a problem because the goal of the team matches is clearly to destroy the other guy's base, with a subgoal being to get more bars. By punishing people who attempt to accomplish the main goal by hurting their ability to accomplish subgoals, you undermine the significance of the main goal, and encourage team dysfunction (part of team is getting kills part of team is trying to win), both of which detract from fun.

Potential Solution: Make exp from base damage more resistant to loss from death, give the whole team an exp bonus when the enemy base gets bombed.

Problem: Its very easy to fly into a situation of instant death where there's almost nothing you can do to survive. For example, you're flying along in explodet and suddenly 3 fast moving enemies appear, and you're dead before you can turn around. Random death = lame. Or you pick up bomb, and you're trying to decide whether to take high road or load road, you pick the wrong one and there's 5 guys waiting for you and you insta die, if you had picked the other path you would have made it past them. No way for you to know though because you dont know where they are.

Potential solution: A minimap radar like the kind in starcraft and warcraft. More information lets you make more informed decisions, and less randomness. Whether the map is always entirely revealed, or only partly depending on the locations and radar ranges of allied planes is something that we could perhaps determine experimentally. Also, larger portions of the map shown on the screen (effectively making everything currently visible smaller) would help with this.

Problem: You're flying along, someone shoots a homing missile from offscreen before you have time to react it hits you and you die. No aiming, no chance to dodge, no fun.

Potential solution: see previous solution.

Problem: You're explodet, you shoot missile at enemy and blow it up right next to them. Some of the time it stalls them, some of time it makes them go faster, some of the time it knocks them to the sides, you have no control over that though because the timing of the rocket detonation, which should determine the outcome, is within the margin of lag. Similar thing occurs with mines, sometimes you hit them and they stall you, sometimes you hit them and they seem to make you go faster.

Possible solution: Decrease the variability in the push effect of explosions so that its not so sensitive to timing and lag. Another possible solution, substitute a different effect for the current explosion push effect. For example, one possibility is a shake effect where the plane briefly vibrates after being hit by an explosion disrupting aiming and turning to some degree.

[Blank]

raar, big post.

Originally Posted by lamsbro

Problem: When no one has the bomb the game play feels boring and directionless. You can kill people or get killed but it doesn't really matter.

Don't like your bomb spawn idea. It'll slow gameplay down and it's really just an unfun way to go (go out get 3 kills, fly ALL the way back for a big bomb you probably don't want to carry anyway :|).

As far as more stars/perma-stars for attacking base: That really just encourages bomber mindless spamming or mindless drone attacking... something I personally hate with every fiber of my being.

I'd think the simpliest solution would be if there isn't a big bomb in play for your team, there will be one spawned at your base. That way, there'd always be that option for big bombing/escorting/defending against it. Just need some mother****er to do it.

Problem: Picking up the bomb is the worst thing you can possibly do if you want bars

This I agree with It'd be nice if stars/bars got rewarded when you respawn and weren't "instant" upgrades.

Problem: Its very easy to fly into a situation of instant death where there's almost nothing you can do to survive.

I had a thought for a 'radar' powerup. Basically a (rare?) powerup that as long as it's in your inventory, your team gets radar (arrows). Using it does nothing but "wastes" it but you lose the radar (obviously). Could also make it star related. Kinda torn on this issue cause I really enjoy arrow-less combat, but there was a certain skill/talent with off-screen shooting.

On a semi-related note, I also thought it'd be cool to have a powerup that acted as a big bomb indicator even if you didn't have a big bomb (a decoy if you will :P). Would be kind of a niche powerup... maybe when you use it, it gave you another random powerup or something... meh.

Problem: You're flying along, someone shoots a homing missile from offscreen before you have time to react it hits you and you die. No aiming, no chance to dodge, no fun.

I think Radar/Arrows would only make this more an issue, not less. People will know where you are and shoot accordingly.

Problem: You're explodet, you shoot missile at enemy and blow it up right next to them.

I'm okay with current mechanics. Maybe it's cause I don't have squad-lag, but when I detonate an explodet missile I 99% of the time know what the outcome will be on my opponent.

[lamsbro]

As far as more stars/perma-stars for attacking base: That really just encourages bomber mindless spamming or mindless drone attacking... something I personally hate with every fiber of my being.

I hate that too, but I think its really a problem with bomber more than anything else. Maybe shields on bases (shields like protoss have, that regenerate, to discourage small raids) will solve this aspect of it.

This I agree with It'd be nice if stars/bars got rewarded when you respawn and weren't "instant" upgrades.

As long as there's a penalty for dying. Its much harder to bomb a base and escape than to bomb a base and die.

I'd think the simpliest solution would be if there isn't a big bomb in play for your team, there will be one spawned at your base. That way, there'd always be that option for big bombing/escorting/defending against it. Just need some mother****er to do it.

What I don't like about this is that it makes bombs very expendable. It also makes it impossible for one team to have 2 or more bombs, which I think is a cool strategy.

I think Radar/Arrows would only make this more an issue, not less. People will know where you are and shoot accordingly.

That's a good point. To clarify, I'm not a fan of arrows, I prefer a minimap style radar. The best solution for this specific problem is probably larger viewing area. I still like minimap because it lets you know if you're flying into a bad situation or not, removing a big source of randomness.

[DiogenesDog]

Originally Posted by lamsbro

Problem: When no one has the bomb the game play feels boring and directionless. You can kill people or get killed but it doesn't really matter.

Honestly, I feel like the gaps in between bomb spawns are small enough that this isn't a problem. It's actually kind of a nice interlude for me - gives you a chance to screw around a little and maybe go grab a powerup or heal without pressure. And it also adds a little more meaning/tension to the bomb carries once the bomb respawns.

Originally Posted by lamsbro

Possible Solution: More meaningful subgoals. Stars are a subgoal, but they don't really do much and discourage you from taking risks (which is in conflict with the risky main goal of landing bombs on the enemy base).

...that said, I agree with pretty much everything you say in this section (including the part I cut out after this to save space).

Originally Posted by lamsbro

One possibility: bombs don't spawn, they have to be earned. For example, if you kill 3 enemy planes, you can go back to base and pick up a bomb.

Agree with Blank - this would be more of a hassle than it's worth.

Originally Posted by lamsbro

Or: stars make your plane much stronger than currently (so that they matter) and you only lose a portion of your exp when you die, not all of it (so that risk is punished less) and damaging bases is a better source of exp (perhaps it provides both more exp, and more permanent exp?

I think pretty much everyone agrees that stars should be stronger. Personally, I think they should also have some crazier effects so you see a real visual impact here (even just changing the visual appearance of your projectiles when you have a few stars I think would help reinforce the idea that you're a badass to ppl).

Keeping xp is an interesting idea, especially given the name. Right now it feels strange to me that it's called xp but is so temporary... it's not a big enough issue to worry about, but it's definitely contrary to my associations with the term. Uh, went off on kind of a tangent there, but anyway I think this is worth trying. My main worry is that everyone's just going to have 5 star planes if the game goes more than 10 minutes. And it seems a little confusing.

I like though that damaging the base is the best way to gain xp. This would not only give ppl incentive to attack the base (which can be boring), but more importantly would give them incentive to SURVIVE when they attack the base (which could be fun!)

Originally Posted by lamsbro

Problem: Picking up the bomb is the worst thing you can possibly do if you want bars... By picking up the bomb you are sacrificing your exp and your ratio for your team... By punishing people who attempt to accomplish the main goal by hurting their ability to accomplish subgoals, you undermine the significance of the main goal, and encourage team dysfunction (part of team is getting kills part of team is trying to win), both of which detract from fun.

Agree that this is a bit of an issue. It feels lame right now that the winning team often (usually?) has a completely ****ty ratio. And since a good ratio is basically an indicator that you're participating in the most fun part of the game (dogfighting and trying to stay alive), that worries me. That said, I don't mind it so much if there's a clear split between offense and defense, with the former basically meaning you're sacrificing your ratio to do base damage. What I DO mind is that it seems like this is happening on a grand scale, where the entire team benefits from sacrificing their ratio as a whole.

Honestly though, I think a lot of this is just a side effect of the game being so offensively oriented. Back when the respawn time for both planes and bombs was higher, being a really good defensive player made you much more of an asset to your team.

Originally Posted by lamsbro

Potential Solution: Make exp from base damage more resistant to loss from death, give the whole team an exp bonus when the enemy base gets bombed.

The first solution makes me worry about suicide runs. The second solution though I think is a really cool idea.

Originally Posted by lamsbro

Problem: Its very easy to fly into a situation of instant death where there's almost nothing you can do to survive.
Potential solution: A minimap radar like the kind in starcraft and warcraft

I think this would be cool, or even just a return of the arrows. It's been so long since I played with them that I'm not even sure if I like the current way or the old way better.

And if this means that we can keep the current plane sizes without ****ing gameplay (which look much better than smaller planes would), then that's absolutely fantastic.

Originally Posted by lamsbro

Problem: You're explodet, you shoot missile at enemy and blow it up right next to them. Some of the time it stalls them, some of time it makes them go faster, some of the time it knocks them to the sides, you have no control over that though because the timing of the rocket detonation, which should determine the outcome, is within the margin of lag.

Agree with Blank - I think this is fine. Most of the time it works as expected, and the alternatives seem much worse to me. Bouncing people around with your shots is the most fun part of being an Explodet, and something like just making them shake or get debuffed wouldn't be nearly as exciting and funny.

[tmm3k]

On some of these problems, you're assuming that everyone has the same goal in mind--to gain the experience points and bars. The main objective of the base vs. base battle is to attack the enemy base. Anyone fighting to gain bars is being selfish and should be playing Rolling Hills instead. Everyone should be focused on helping their team win in some way, whether it's picking up the bomb or escorting the person with the bomb or even defending your own base. I've seen games that just went on and on because no one was attacking the base.

Hoarding bars and XP basically makes the game less enjoyable.