tbd_lostcity please give your impressions here

[Karl]

reworked lostcity to be on par w/ the new tbd_cave. please check if out:

http://www.nimblygames.com/levels/tb...y_history.html

[Snowsickle]

Prefer original.

Added to map diversity - lostcity was a fun simple map, cave was a fun semi-complex map. Now they're both semi-complex and it just seems pretty meh.

[Ferret]

Stop ****ing up decent maps. Make new maps. If new maps become more popular than old maps, possibly incorporate some of that design, or still leave them the **** alone. Today we made a conscious group server switch to play Ant Hill because you suck.

Just because someone will complain that I wasn't constructive; The map is entirely too long, turrets are placed too far out, about 70% of the map is wasted because of this and you either have to killing turrets placed in obnoxious places (not my idea of fun, same reason I don't play alone with bots), trying to fly through the map is an eye-sore, the bottom path is stupid because it doesn't stretch the full length, the hole into the bases is way too large and even Fungee would probably have a 100% success rate lobbing through that.

[DiogenesDog]

My favorite part: the way it's implied that switching to Ant Hill represents true last resort desperation.

[Karl]

Originally Posted by Ferret

Stop ****ing up decent maps. Make new maps. If new maps become more popular than old maps, possibly incorporate some of that design, or still leave them the **** alone. Today we made a conscious group server switch to play Ant Hill because you suck.

Just because someone will complain that I wasn't constructive; The map is entirely too long, turrets are placed too far out, about 70% of the map is wasted because of this and you either have to killing turrets placed in obnoxious places (not my idea of fun, same reason I don't play alone with bots), trying to fly through the map is an eye-sore, the bottom path is stupid because it doesn't stretch the full length, the hole into the bases is way too large and even Fungee would probably have a 100% success rate lobbing through that.

#1 You're playing a beta so chill.

tbd_lostcity is ~14% wider and ~4% taller than lostcity_test (advance lostcity). This was done to alleviate the "cramped" feeling when the player count went above 10-12 players.

The point of an objective based team map is to win... destroying turrets helps accomplish this. In previous lostcity maps the turrets were pointless and matches were won without a single turret dieing.

"the bottom path is stupid because it doesn't stretch the full length" huh?

[Karl]

Originally Posted by Snowsickle

Prefer original.

Added to map diversity - lostcity was a fun simple map, cave was a fun semi-complex map. Now they're both semi-complex and it just seems pretty meh.

What do you think has made the map "complex"? There are only 4 new pieces of geometry. Two of which are in place to prevent bomber from flying high all the way to the other teams' base.

[Ferret]

You're right, it's beta. There have been several negative changes over the past few weeks and dozens of fixes to things that weren't broken. This needs to stop and I think a good first step towards that goal is by making it clear I'm getting annoying at the complete incompetence being demonstrated in certain areas.

I'll take it that you're saying you want to make turrets part of the objective, and I disagree. By putting them in the current locations, it only encourages people to suicide into them (watched it happen earlier) and cuts down on people shooting each other. I like to shoot other people and this causes the same thing that annoys me when people pick bombers and fly straight at the base, ignoring any players they might go buy because "it's an objective game that's the only point." If anything is ever done with the suggestion of only nukes being able to damage the base and/or turrets, the turret repair comes back so there's repercussions to suicide dives, etc, there might be more to do with turrets, but I don't see a point to nor know anyone who enjoys PvT combat.

Cramping feeling of 10-12 players? You mean that day in July, I think it was a Thursday? Glad we've dodged that bullet. There are going to be times, even after this game gets sold/licensed/massively distributed when people want to play a 3v3 or 4v4, don't kill the good maps for it.

The bottom path used to lead up to the hole outside the base, giving cover probably 75% more distance than currently, making people come down to shoot you or Flare get a shield and hang out over the base. Flying low gives you less options, especially with a nuke, since obviously you can't use afterburners to gain altitude. So, it's pretty stupid to fly low and handicap your maneuverability without gaining any extra cover or reducing enemy attack angles and opportunities. This makes the entire bottom route pretty pointless.

14% wider, 4% taller, you forgot 256% uglier.

[Snowsickle]

Originally Posted by Karl

What do you think has made the map "complex"? There are only 4 new pieces of geometry. Two of which are in place to prevent bomber from flying high all the way to the other teams' base.

The four new pieces of geometry are decently sized and certainly contribute to the feeling of clutter. The forward turrets contribute as well, since they further limit flying choices. When I say "complex", I mean that I'm spending more time dodging terrain and/or turrets than I am trying to out-think my opponent and use the terrain to my advantage. There is certainly a much more open feeling to the original lost city. Anyway, I think its silly to put terrain in place to prevent the bomber from flying all the way to the other teams base. The bomber is going to need a change before release, thats been a pretty unanimous opinion for a long time. Designing maps that are intended for release with this in mind seems rather pointless.

The point of an objective based team map is to win... destroying turrets helps accomplish this. In previous lostcity maps the turrets were pointless and matches were won without a single turret dieing.

The question that has to be asked here is: is it fun? The only time I have ever found killing turrets amusing is when I would lob a stray bomb before I died and kill it, or when I was feeling bored and didn't mind suiciding repeatedly. Most people don't enjoy killing AI controlled whatnot. Destroying the base is fun because the difficulty of doing so is directly tied to how skilled the defending team is. Turrets were far from pointless in previous lostcity maps. Sure, they weren't killed, but they prevented bakking, limited bomber spam, and most importantly gave people somewhat of a "safe haven" to run to when being chased by 3 or 4 enemies. I personally don't believe turrets need any more of a role than what they had.

[Karl]

updated tbd_lostcity
http://www.nimblygames.com/levels/tb...y_history.html

1. reduced width by 5% (200 pixels)
2. removed the two forward turrets
3. tweaked "nub" on right base building. shouldnt get caught on it anymore (when flying in from the left)
4. added another long range turret to defend from bomber run and prevent spawn camping
5. removed super tall buildings
6. reduced base entrance size
7. moved base forward on platform
8. moved base defense building forward to make lobbing harder
9. narrowed passages for the small buildings around the middle building
10. 1% less ugly

[Snowsickle]

Much better, in my opinion.