Which day/time is Best for you to play league games? Improved

[CCN]

Due to posts about time. Lets see what the spread is.

Multi vote your best times.



Edit:
Results So Far
Sat: 16
Sun: 17

Sat Eve: 15
Sat Night: 12
Sun Morn: 6
Sun Eve: 11
Sun Night: 7

Methodology:
if you voted for Sun>Sat you got +1 vote into each column (making you neutral through the day), if you voted in Sun>Sat and Sun Xtime, Sun>Sat overrides. Same with Sat>Sun.

Overall Tallies are people who voted in Sun, and Sat. If you voted both, your vote cancels.

Ommissions: 1 duplicate pointed out by Mikesol, and 1 from SAT (Lee I think, in list down). SHawk was put in as the MH player I will ask to confirm.

Graphs (XLS files not uploading currently I will find another way to get them up)

Notes:
Sunday people tended to vote for time slots, Saturday people liked the general day slot better. This may be due to Sat only having two options. The end result is without salting the poll looks unbalanced.

I would appreciate a double check by someone to verify. Pref someone who is on the opposite side of the coin to where I sit.

[Beagle]

Lets get some reasoning going behind these votes so we're not just looking at pure, unintuitive numbers.

I voted any Saturday time, because I don't mind staying up all night/morning Saturday and then crashing and burning on Sunday. I didn't choose Sunday because that would mean staying up all Sunday night/Monday morning, which would totally screw me over for my Uni course.

And before any high school kids tell me about how they've stayed up all night and then gone to school - you feel a little different about it when you're actually paying for the course. I actually want to learn this stuff, not just show up and sleep all class.

[evilarsenal]

this is not going to be true regardless of what happens since 75% of players in apl dont even know what the forums are

this poll is response-biased, completely, even if it goes my way

[Eruption]

this poll is broken, you can vote for multiple categories which rigs it, what the hell is response bias, as evil said ^^

[mikesol]

To start off evil you are using the term response bias in a very incorrect sense. Let me clarify some statistics to aid in this thread.

Response bias is a type of cognitive bias which can affect the results of a statistical survey if respondents answer questions in the way they think the questioner wants them to answer rather than according to their true beliefs.

This question in no way makes people want to vote one way or the other. As long as CCN does not include anything biased in his original post there is no way that this can be biased. Sure Beagle posted a biased opinion, but he's not the one running the poll nor is he the one seeing who you vote for, etc. You could just as easily post a counter-argument to this.

Also keep in mind that it's reasonable for people to be swayed after listening to others. I personally did not realize the extreme circumstances Beagle and his team had. I am much more inclined to try and make games Saturday because it's still the weekend and doesn't bother me (and I prefer Saturday anyway).

Continuing, I fail to see the logic behind this evil. How can you talk about Sunday being the best day from a few people but then not accept having a poll that asks even more people not be biased?

Furthermore, I see no reason to believe that there is a correlation between the people who go on the forums and those that want a specific time.

You have a valid point in the sense that you won't reach all players this way but perhaps people should encourage their teams to participate in this. I know I'm encouraging people to vote in here.

Edit: And the fact you can vote for multiple things is a problem. The poll should only allow 1 vote or only have the two options of Saturday or Sunday.

[CCN]

I took some classes to deal with questionnaires and how to ask them properly (Hopefully I have gotten rid of most of certain biases).

Mike I see what you're saying but I did it this way for a reason so that people can show a range they are suitable for and within a day what is their preference.

I made it so you can see who voted for what - click the numbers peeps! At the end I will be tallying the votes in different graphs (etc general opted for sat > sun, who opted for what within sat) and counting people only once.


For example I think there will be an inclination for people to vote for say Sunday, and Sunday xtime. I'll distill these votes in a running tally in the OP when I get back from my movie

[as red as black]

I like before noon EST.

I'm a PST guy, and I like getting the games over with early in the morning so I can go out and do something for the rest of the day instead of having Altitude right at like 1 - 4 pm PST (4-7 EST)

[mikesol]

You should throw out one of the ones from the Sunday time as it's a repeat of one of the user's already there. Not going to announce names but that's just lame.

Edit: Also not sure why Maimer's voting when I thought he quit...? I guess we'll tally up the real votes from the people actually participating at the end.

[DMCM]

Best time for me is Sunday afternoon and night GMT, so morning and afternoon EST

Pretty much as it is now.

[Evan20000]

I'm pretty flexable, but can't if it's 3:00-10:00 ET on saturday.
Sunday afternoon works best for me though.

[CCN]

Originally Posted by DMCM

Best time for me is Sunday afternoon and night GMT, so morning and afternoon EST

Pretty much as it is now.

Could you fill in the checkmark for both morning and afternoon EST please <3

I realise I put in bias by putting in *as is* over one of the options.

My bad but shouldn't matter too much.

[Stormich]

morning est or after 5pm est

[evilarsenal]

Originally Posted by mikesol

To start off evil you are using the term response bias in a very incorrect sense. Let me clarify some statistics to aid in this thread.

Response bias is a type of cognitive bias which can affect the results of a statistical survey if respondents answer questions in the way they think the questioner wants them to answer rather than according to their true beliefs.

This question in no way makes people want to vote one way or the other. As long as CCN does not include anything biased in his original post there is no way that this can be biased. Sure Beagle posted a biased opinion, but he's not the one running the poll nor is he the one seeing who you vote for, etc. You could just as easily post a counter-argument to this.

Also keep in mind that it's reasonable for people to be swayed after listening to others. I personally did not realize the extreme circumstances Beagle and his team had. I am much more inclined to try and make games Saturday because it's still the weekend and doesn't bother me (and I prefer Saturday anyway).

Continuing, I fail to see the logic behind this evil. How can you talk about Sunday being the best day from a few people but then not accept having a poll that asks even more people not be biased?

Furthermore, I see no reason to believe that there is a correlation between the people who go on the forums and those that want a specific time.

You have a valid point in the sense that you won't reach all players this way but perhaps people should encourage their teams to participate in this. I know I'm encouraging people to vote in here.

Edit: And the fact you can vote for multiple things is a problem. The poll should only allow 1 vote or only have the two options of Saturday or Sunday.

im saying the response bias of people RESPONDING

not everyone is going to respond, only people who feel strong about this topic are going to respond, not everyone cares, SORRY, but its a fact

and also, what eruption said, this breaks the poll and therefore is comepletely rigged, people can vote for everything, so basically 1 person has 3 votes? and i voted once, so its already wrong

most players in the APL don't troll the forums like we do so they probably don't even know about this thread...

GG this poll isn't working

[CCN]

Originally Posted by evilarsenal

im saying the response bias of people RESPONDING

not everyone is going to respond, only people who feel strong about this topic are going to respond, not everyone cares, SORRY, but its a fact

and also, what eruption said, this breaks the poll and therefore is comepletely rigged, people can vote for everything, so basically 1 person has 3 votes? and i voted once, so its already wrong

most players in the APL don't troll the forums like we do so they probably don't even know about this thread...

GG this poll isn't working

Its really sad you've made up your mind already, and will justify it with any means neccessary.

The poll is not broken, unless you think that people can definitely only play one time as preferential. Maybe wait to see what I do with the data before throwing a hissy fit.

Since you seem to know FOR SURE that everyone loves Sunday, tell me how you attained this data. Asking people is a response, just tell me who you asked and what they said - I'd be happy to check they still feel this way.

[evilarsenal]

i didnt say anything, i said this poll sucks, there's 40+ votes yet, 29 voters.... so 11 votes+ dont mean anything or are rigged

what are you goiing to do with data that has a poll that doesnt function correctly and with the response of not even 10% of all the people that participate in the apl?

45 votes, 29 voters sorry this poll can be good nvm


only 4 people are complaining on the forums... just 4
and whats stopping you from going on accounts that you made earlier to rig these results? back in the day, bebop, my friend created many accounts and just rigged votes in his favor... how can all the accounts created in the past 5 days or even before be justified for...

there are 29 voters, yet 4 feel like they post about it heavily, these results cannot be made out of any context

[CCN]

Originally Posted by evilarsenal

i didnt say anything, i said this poll sucks, there's 40+ votes yet, 29 voters.... so 11 votes+ dont mean anything or are rigged

what are you goiing to do with data that has a poll that doesnt function correctly and with the response of not even 10% of all the people that participate in the apl?

45 votes, 29 voters sorry this poll can be good nvm


only 4 people are complaining on the forums... just 4
and whats stopping you from going on accounts that you made earlier to rig these results? back in the day, bebop, my friend created many accounts and just rigged votes in his favor... how can all the accounts created in the past 5 days or even before be justified for...

there are 29 voters, yet 4 feel like they post about it heavily, these results cannot be made out of any context

I'm waiting for you to tell me how you came to the sunday conclusion. Since 29 voters is insufficient I assume you must of asked many more people, and definitely outside of the timezone you play (obviously huge bias), right?

4 people complained (our of how many active posters? 14?)! How many fewer people write posts then lurk or vote, a **** load. You think Beagle doesn't speak for the 90% of MH who are aussie? Or I don't for the 40% of KLF who are Asian?


I can verify the vote because vote tracking is enabled. I mention this time and time again. I will go in, and pull out accounts that are <5 days old or known dupes. Maybe 1 gets through but no more then that.



I am graphing the data tomorrow, a few people in the sample are being thrown out until they talk to me ingame to verify themselves

List:
Low
S Hawk

[evilarsenal]

ok, i hope ur data is accurate and involves EVERYONE not just people who voted... i proved this poll is wrong regardless of what way you look at it....

sunday conclusion was the best as seen past 2 leagues, and the reason has been stated many times

If beagles teammates care, they will come here and vote, but they "dont", i bet you there will be problems if everything is changed to saturday,

CCN, you are not the one to fight this argument, your actions before this prove it, if its anyone to prove me wrong its not you. If i take anyone off my friends list, it's for a good reason

don't even think for a second you can say your talking for anyone, KLF shows up for matches, they dont have a problem with it

there are more active posters than you think, all of ACE/Lobstars/FN, every other team has yet to post their opinion. If they all decided to be saturday, it'd be an easier case

How old are you again? what stats are you going to pull out to prove everything? Because they will be completely wrong, this poll is BAD as i have explained previously

[lammyboi2104]

Friday would be best for me, 7:30 EST

[Triped]

The only thing better than Sunday afternoon (nap time) is Sunday night.

[mikesol]

Evil,

Since clearly my first post did not make sense to you let me try this again.

1) You did not ask everyone. You did not request dates. You simply saw that some people wanted Sunday and assumed this was the best date. Since you're big into facts - fact: this is not a valid means to determine which day the tournament should be on. This is a biased opinion based on what YOU want - not what the community wants.

2) You are partially correct in your idea of response - you just don't know enough statistics to really talk about it. People are more inclined to vote when they care about the topic. Therefore, those responses will indicate the people who care... Wait a second - isn't that what we want? Don't we want to make it on a day that people actually desire rather than one that's just arbitrarily picked? Isn't that how we vote for offices in the US? Those who care go out and vote and those who don't don't have a say?

3) I agree with you in that this poll fails because it lets people vote for a range of possibilities with more than one vote for the days. I only voted for one thing myself - but as you see many others didn't. However, since we can see who voted we can correct this. We can also confirm who is actually playing and who isn't. If people aren't in the tournament they don't have a say. There's only one person so far that has two accounts in the tournament in two separate clans and I know who that is.

4) In statistics there is such a thing called a "sample." This is when you ask part of the population and make assumptions about the whole. It's this fascinating concept that we use so that we don't have to go out and ask EVERY SINGLE person.

5) Rather than trying to attack people how about trying to post some real facts rather than just assuming that what you believe are facts?

You say: "How old are you again? what stats are you going to pull out to prove everything? Because they will be completely wrong, this poll is BAD as i have explained previously"

Let me respond with: "How old are you again? Are you getting a degree in statistics? What [false] stats are you going to pull out to prove everything? Because they will be completely wrong. You are ignorant for thinking that what you've said so far is a valid argument"

6) The one VALID thing that you talked about is the fact that not everyone trolls the forums like us. This is why I feel we need to encourage teams to vote. Go and talk to your team in whatever way necessary and let them know. Set a voting date (maybe the weekend after this one or even two weeks from this one) that way we can announce it in the tournament to the players in game. If people don't take the time to register on the forums and vote their desire is irrelevant (kind of like how if you don't register for voting in real life you don't get a say in who is elected).


Sorry dude. I don't normally get involved with stuff like this but I can't stand by and let you use fallacies and other nonsense to try and argue that Sunday is the better day.

[CCN]

Originally Posted by evilarsenal

ok, i hope ur data is accurate and involves EVERYONE not just people who voted... i proved this poll is wrong regardless of what way you look at it....

sunday conclusion was the best as seen past 2 leagues, and the reason has been stated many times

If beagles teammates care, they will come here and vote, but they "dont", i bet you there will be problems if everything is changed to saturday,

CCN, you are not the one to fight this argument, your actions before this prove it, if its anyone to prove me wrong its not you. If i take anyone off my friends list, it's for a good reason

don't even think for a second you can say your talking for anyone, KLF shows up for matches, they dont have a problem with it

there are more active posters than you think, all of ACE/Lobstars/FN, every other team has yet to post their opinion. If they all decided to be saturday, it'd be an easier case

How old are you again? what stats are you going to pull out to prove everything? Because they will be completely wrong, this poll is BAD as i have explained previously

You ignored my post and all the questions within it, then decided to launch a very personal attack. The questions in my previous post still need answering but don't need being repeated.




Don't tell me you know my clan better then me.

CCN, you are not the one to fight this argument, your actions before this prove it, Its a problem. Its a problem for me. Its something with merit and you dismiss it with an ad hominem? Are you 12? It matters **** all who is delivering the situation if the situation is there. If there is a gas leak and *CCN reports it does it make it any less true if EVIL goes "its Joe, its not him to report it, his actions prove it." I would like you to expand on your ad hominem to show me exactly what makes what I say so unbelievable. Have I lied to everyone here repeatedly? Have I killed your baby sister and started a blood fued? No. Get of the **** mountain you're building.

sunday conclusion was the best as seen past 2 leagues, and the reason has been stated many times
No. Its been sunday since most teams formed. Just has. Is this your reason? That is perhaps the ****tiest reason in the world. "I ran this tourney on sunday, and it happened, thus sunday works".

If beagles teammates care, they will come here and vote, but they "dont", i bet you there will be problems if everything is changed to saturday,
Since none else have voted they don't care, makes the poll perfectly accurate. Once again in hyper defence mode.

Take a stats class.


TLDR:
You contradict yourself in logic, you launch a personal attack, you use ad hominem. I think in the end why don't you post you will not change it from Sunday because that's where YOU want it that way. YOU want to be right, and **** the truth.


If i take anyone off my friends list, it's for a good reason Don't worry you don't need to remove me from your f-list, after all this **** you just talked I did the honors for you. Either a friend or not and your post here suggests thats no longer the case. Just make sure you have someone to adjudicate rulings at the matches since it'll be harder to reach you.

We had our ****ing quarter final match become a walk because the ****ing time of the match meant the other team couldn't play.\


I have a College Degree involving a large base of statistics.

[Kuja900]

Ok I'm putting an end to this now. Look at who voted for what, all current and past league organizers/admins, the leaders of ACE, fLb and L* (who I assume represent their team's best interests) and the majority have all cast their votes for keeping things as is . The time is not changing.

[mikesol]

Originally Posted by Kuja900

Ok I'm putting an end to this now. Look at who voted for what, all current and past league organizers/admins, the leaders of ACE, fLb and L* (who I assume represent their team's best interests) and the majority have all cast their votes for keeping things as is . The time is not changing.

Not saying you don't have the right to do this at all - but the whole purpose of my posts was to say that that there is no *valid* reason aside from that you guys prefer that time. As the people who run the tournament you have that right. I'd just appreciate it not being said that "the majority of people would prefer that time." Considering the votes are even when you throw out the fact that someone voted twice and other people voted who aren't even playing - I'd say that you don't have any grounds on the majority argument.

True the leaders of ACE, fLb and L* voted but that doesn't mean anything. The leader of a clan could be in one time zone and many of their clan in another.

Edit: If I ran my own season and voted for another time that doesn't mean that my vote is worth more than anyone else's. It should be up to the community as a whole - or at the very least put out to the clan leaders to talk with their clan and cast a vote that they feel is best for their clan. As it is now it doesn't look like that has happened.

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by mikesol

Not saying you don't have the right to do this at all - but the whole purpose of my posts was to say that that there is no *valid* reason aside from that you guys prefer that time. As the people who run the tournament you have that right. I'd just appreciate it not being said that "the majority of people would prefer that time." Considering the votes are even when you throw out the fact that you voted twice and other people voted who aren't even playing - I'd say that you don't have a grounds on the majority argument.

True the leaders of ACE, fLb and L* voted but that doesn't mean anything. The leader of a clan could be in one time zone and many of their clan in another.

If a clan leader votes it is a fair assumption that they have their team's interests in mind. I'l yield the majority consensus could be considered murky however I was just going by the poll when I said that. The fact that all three admins and the leaders of three of the perceived top six teams have voted one way is telling enough imho.

ps- evil would a little grammar be so hard >.>.

[CCN]

+1 to what Mikesol said.
I've distilled the results of the poll. in the OP.

If you guys are running sunday because its easier for you to mod the tournament or because you like sundays that is your right.

The Majority =/= the strongest clans/admins. Class would vote as clan leader but he's moving house atm. Beagle did. There's two clans (Alibiet not top 6 clan's).
I get it 100% if you feel that if the admins want it Sunday and the three/six top clans (as the staple power clans) want it Sunday that why you keep it sunday - thats fine to me, I can accept that. But in a league of 18 clans the majority this or that I thought there WAS room for change.

I'll take it as given now that the top 6 clans and admins have weighted voting.

[Kuja900]

You are correct in assuming admins have weighted voting and it is also a fair assumption that the higher ranked clans care more deeply about the tourney and their opinions should, therefore, be given more credence.

[Vi*]

People have already joined teams and signed up knowing that it would be on Sundays. If Beagle started a Saturday league after this one, I would probably join, but it is well past too late to change the day for this current league.

Of course, if a team can't make a match with L* because it is 4AM their time, I will be happy to try and reschedule as long as I'm notified a week ahead of time.

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by Vi*

People have already joined teams and signed up knowing that it would be on Sundays.

Good point, just for the record there is no particular limit on rescheduling at this time (although there probably needs to be and that may change soon to like within a week or so) so primarily aussie/euro teams assuming their captains are responsible enough to work this out in advance shouldn't have any trouble.

[Beagle]

This thread started with good, innocent intentions, I thought - just here to collect data which a lot of us were interested in. The flaming in here makes it clear that the issue has been blown out of proportion. As I said in the other thread, I don't wish to contribute to that anymore - this is not something that is going to be changed for a minority when the ruling majority is already happy with it.

Mike, I appreciate your reasoned arguments as always, and CCN, I appreciate the initial intent of this thread, but things are getting very nasty and I think it'd be for the best if everybody drops the subject. No amount of reasoning is going to make a change here, and what started as me simply thinking 'oh hey, itd be easier on Saturday, I should ask evil to change!' has turned out to be a much more stubborn point than I would ever have expected.

Yes, we still haven't been told a reason. It doesn't matter, after all this time we can assume we're not going to be told either. So please, with no results in sight, I say the topics be closed and we get on with preperation for the games.

[Kuja900]

It is clear there is no more good to be had here, thread locked.