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| General Altitude Discussion Discuss anything Altitude related that doesn't belong in another forum. |
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#1
10-29-2009, 08:44 PM
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Balance Discussion
Since all the discussion about this that goes on is generally in game whinning about how op different stuff is i'd like people to put down there opinions on these subjects so that some of them might get addressed. Please try to bring some intelligent arguments to the discussion, i dont want to see "zomg! monxy killed me twenty times, recoilless is op!"
The planes i hear talked about the most are trickster, remote and dogfighter. Trickster has too many things going for it. The one shot warp is impossible to deal with for loopys and other mirandas, they can easily avoid confontations/ escape with reverse, they can spam their shot from really far away, the bounce shot hits often when the animation isn't even close. I think a decrease in damage and possibly increased bounce might help the problem, my main problem is with the one shot kill, its really easy to do for how effective it is. Remote, i know this has already been discussed but i still think it needs a little work. I really think reverse needs to be improved. It is currently extremely fun to do but even for those who are very skilled at flying this way it's not enough of an edge to compete with turbo or ultra. Last edited by pig_bomb; 10-29-2009 at 08:47 PM. 
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#2
10-29-2009, 09:14 PM
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You pretty much read my mind when it comes to trickster. However i would rather see a nerf in dash damage. I want Tricksters bounce+dash combo to be nerfed however i would like there sniping abilities to remain the same.
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#3
10-29-2009, 09:15 PM
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Pig_bomb,
The problem with these sort of discussions is that they are personal recollections of an issue - I am a frequent loopy flyer and I eat Trickster's for breakfast, the key is learning how to best utilise your plane's strength's and exploit the other plane's weakness. For tricksters, learn to anticipate their movements. If you main issue is one-shot warp then keep your distance - diving head first into the conflict won't help! Reverse perk: how would you go about improving "reverse"?
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#4
10-29-2009, 09:19 PM
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I'm rather irked by all the whining taking place against trickster and time anchor. Let me point some things:
1) The Miranda has less health than any other plane in the game - thus random stray shots can kill it. This combined with the fact most planes have their own one-shot thing like the biplane, bomber spam, etc makes for a sad Miranda. 2) The one-shot kill only works against loopies and Mirandas - what's wrong with having a plane that is better against certain types of planes than others? Just because the Miranda can take down those two easily doesn't mean it can take down other planes easily. Look at the Miranda vs bomber or explodet match up - it's a lot more difficult. Also, the loopy has plenty of things to counter the Miranda with - acid and emp. An emped Miranda won't do much of anything. 3) The one shot kill leaves you with almost no energy and you are quite vulnerable because of that. Whereas planes like the biplane can zoom in, do their one shot spam thing, and flee - the Miranda has a harder time leaving combat. 4) Other planes besides the Miranda have these so called phantom shots you talk about. I only encounter these against lagging players, though. I have fought plenty of Mirandas and I've never been hit by a phantom shot unless they were lagging or I am lagging. Perhaps something is screwed up with the game coding that doesn't affect my computer. 5) The fully charged up shot takes a decent amount of time to charge up and leaves you with half of your energy gone. What other plane has to fly around with half energy in order to fire? And what if you want to fire another charged up shot? You have to wait some more. If you do decide to spam then you're left in a position where you can't get away easily - thus leaving you vulnerable again. 6) A lot of planes are really easy to do stuff with. Loopy is easy to just hold down f and have all the shots narrow in on their target. Emp can severely impair a team and it has a huge explosion radius. Bomber can easily spam choke points and is amazing in team death match. The rear-firing gun can take down planes easily. They also have enough health to survive 2 hc shots as well as a warp-shot. Explodets I don't feel are all that bad but then again I have over a 2.0 ratio with it and I'm not even that good at them. They are amazing in ball and can toss planes around easily - remote mines being especially bad. Biplanes with their heavy canon shot can rip through multiple planes and take down people like it was nothing. I go against some of the top biplanes and even with anchor and warp I still fall to them. The dogfighter can tear planes apart just by being close to them for a few seconds. All in all, I can see the annoyance of the warp-shot but I hardly feel like it's ovepowered considering all planes have their own ridiculous things. I know Maimer and Monxy disagree with me but meh that's their opinion and this is mine.
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#5
10-29-2009, 09:21 PM
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I think some other bonus to reverse could be added like increased speed when flying forwards or i think smoother transition from forwards to stall to reverse would be enough mike: There good arguments and since the game is so well balanced it is easy to make arguments like this but the fact is none of the advantages that other planes have are as easy to execute as the mirandas. No smart miranda user puts themselves in a situation where a biplane can swoop in and kill them in the very short time of vulnerability the miranda has after a warp shot. I know all planes have some huge advantages over other planes but i'm arguing the miranda has too many, i'd also like to say i don't think this is true for the time anchor im only talking about trickster. Last edited by pig_bomb; 10-29-2009 at 09:27 PM.
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#6
10-29-2009, 09:37 PM
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Like I said before in the game, perhaps you should reduce Miranda's energy a little so they can't trickster+warp combo. However, if you do this, you should increase their health by a good chunk. Most Mirandas spend whole games hiding and waiting so they can unleash warp+trickster on someone. By increasing their energy they won't be so fragile and they can fight in open range some more and get kills in other ways.
Explodet is a little overpowered too, not just remote mines, but all mines. Playing a game against a team with 3 or more explodets is really frustrating, especially for us loopies because we can't move. In neutral maps, they get full control of the middle (if they're any good) by laying mines there and shooting missiles at entrance points. Maaaybe do something about remote mines, but there aren't that many Explodets. The scenario I decsribed is a rare sight really. Bomber's grenade spamming has always been a problem. Any plane, even Explodets, caught in the range of the 3 grenades is dead. And those who have the full game also have dropping bombs for their Bomber, which also got insane range and area of effect, they're easy to spam without even being seen. too One of these should be nerfed IMO because they're both very easy to kill with. On the other hand, Bomber's speed is ridiculous so could do the trick to keep it balanced. Loopy's tracker is overpowered. We discussed this before, but most people were agaisnt locking before firing. I'm not sure why. I am different than most loopies. I use EMP more for area control instead of spam. EMP doesn't seem overpowered to me. it takes good aim (especially with lag) to hit those and it's not effective on every plane. Biplanes can afterburn away before they're killed, Mirandas can still combo and kill loopy... As for acid, it rarely kills you directly, unless you stupidly afterburn after being poisoned by it. Also great for area control. Biplane seems fine honestly... 3 different red perks, none of them is too overpowered or underpowered. of course I don't have the full game so it's been a while since I played Biplane and I could be wrong Last edited by DMCM; 10-29-2009 at 09:45 PM.
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#7
10-29-2009, 11:04 PM
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right now, the explodet is still overpowered
best plane in the game because it can kill, get lucky as hell all the time, and survive forever, its quite annoying no play has that... its thermodynamic or whatever knocks me with full health into a wall and i die, OVERPOWERED mines,.... can they go back to the old days where they were stationary? explodets need a slower turning radius or something, they are overpowered bombs off the bomber should be able to hit the base Get oldversion shield instead of new shield =) nerf explodets, either their mines or make them heavier, seriously
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#8
10-29-2009, 11:06 PM
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Quote:
 .Anyway, here's a list of commonly played strategies and how to counter them: Loopy Tracker: Don't engage them head on or you'll be EMP'd and missiled to death. Try to attack from behind or above Double Shot: Same as tracker, except they have more firepower. Acid: They cant EMP you, but you have to be wary of acid kills. They like to acid choke points, so try to avoid those if possible. Close the gap, and you should come out on top. If they try to run, it's probably a good idea not to follow, or you risk being ambushed. Bomber Suppressor: These bombers come in 2 varieties: Choke point spammers and 1-shotters. The typical choke point spammer has trouble fighting 1 on 1, so once you manage to close the gap, he's pretty much done for. The 1-shotters are the "pro" bombers. Whatever you do, do NOT stay in front of them or you will die horribly. Dumb Bombs: A lot like suppressor, but they won't be able to fend you off if you're behind them. Just avoid being below them at all costs. Flak Cannon: Much like suppressor, but being behind them is a fatal mistake. Being below them is the best place to be, as they have to turn around 50-60 degrees to nade you, due to the arc of the bombs. Fatty Director: lol Thermo: The best place to fight thermo is out in the open so you don't get thermowned into a wall. The mines are standard easy to dodge, so dont worry too much about that. This can be tough depending on your surroundings, so watch yourself. Remote: Try to engage it from a distance, while not being near any walls. Another very simple rule: you get close, you will likely die. Remote is the most played explo, from what I've seen, so you'll need to learn to counter this. Bisexual Plane Dogfighter: Pretend it's a recoiless that slows to a near stop when it fires. Recoilless: This perk is nasty when played right. Most of them use flexy, so they can't handle long drawn out encounters with repair or heavy armor. (Hence most of them use a hit-and-run style of play) This matchup mostly depends on trapping them so they cant get away. Beagle Mobile: Most sniplane users don't know what they're doing. The ones that do will make your life difficult. The key to this is knowing when to call it quits. Keep constant pressure on them, but not so much that you get tunnel vision and let a teammate kill you or chase them too far behind enemy lines. Cover is also very important in the initial engagement. Mi-wahhhh-nda Trickster: Now despite all the crying about it, I really don't think this is a hard plane to kill. (Tested this with Whale, my Randa, and recoilless) The key to killing them is exploiting 2 of the flaws in this plane. 1: They have 180 health. 2: If you survive/dodge the initial shot/combo, then they are forced to retreat or die. Once they are on the run, they will be easy pickings due to not being very fast or manuverable. (Think flexy explo manuverable) You also have a few other options for dealing with this plane. Nade spam works REALLY well at killing it. Also, move with a teammate. Typical randa players can't handle more then one plane at a time. A handful of players want to snipe, but prefer trickster over biplanes HC, so they will stay at a distance to pick you off. Fight them like a HC with more burst damage, but way less health, not like a typical trickster. Laser: This thing eats heavy planes for breakfast, and light planes for dinner. The most dangerous variant I've seen is Pig's reverse Laser. The best planes for killing Laser are the high burst damage planes that require close quarters, but the rev solves that problem. The best way to handle this plane, is to remember that it CANNOT kill 2 full health planes quickly. Time Anchor (Tested on Mike (Sorry, man D  ): The key to beating anchor is dependant on your knowledge of how anchor works. If your whole team is bearing down on the anchor, then this will be a lot easier. See, anchor players have to be aware of most things around them, and the most immediate threat is usually the one they will focus on. So you have 2 options: 1. Snipe them once they're busy messing with a teammate. 2. Fake them out so that they think you're targeting them, but target behind them so when they anchor... Yeah. Most of the time I play against Mike, these are the most effective strategies behind stopping him. Bottom line: It's not a computer behind the Anchor, it's a human. Humans have flaws like tunnel vision and trying to over-predict what you do.Glad that wraps that up. Any questions?
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#9
10-29-2009, 11:24 PM
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http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html
This site is full of interesting articles on game balance. This particular article has a few very applicable points: "Notice that the good players are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the "cheap stuff" and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it. And as is quite common in competitive games, many new tactics will later be discovered that make the original cheap tactic look wholesome and fair." This is exactly my feeling on what is currently happening with the miranda. There are counters. Believe it or not, since some of you haven't played with me for a very long time, I've played pretty much every plane for a very significant amount of time. The miranda-warp combo is far from a newly discovered tactic so I've been on the receiving end of it with just about every plane in the game. Superficially it may seem like a very cheap maneuver, but creativity with any plane can result in a counter and a secured win. Loopy versus miranda? Use terrain to prevent him from one shotting you while trying to get an angle such that you can emp the miranda; missiles will kill him before emp wears off. You have your own method of gibbing planes, you just have to make sure you find a way to pull it off before the other guy. There are two important pre-requisites for warp/charge to work: 1) You have to be relatively close to the enemy to use it 2) You need a lot of open space or warp isn't going to end well for you Every plane in the game can exploit these two things in some way. Way too often I see players running into situations and making snap judgements based on some silly sense of intuition and immediately complaining to whoever is around. "He oneshot me! Thats not fair!" As in the quote above; good players see that happen and think "How can I deal with that?" If there is any answer whatsoever to that question, there's a decent chance that the mechanic isn't broken. Last edited by Snowsickle; 10-29-2009 at 11:37 PM.
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#10
10-29-2009, 11:57 PM
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I see plane balancing in two lights. 1. Each plane should have its unique/effective role in a given game mode. 2. All planes should stand a reasonable , but not necessarily equal chance in a 1v1 situation. Tough act.
My biggest concern is the miranda's dominance in any medium-long length 1v1 engagement, because they are destined to occur in most game types at some point. In a battle involving multiple planes chance, circumstance, skill, and teamwork will nearly even the odds no matter what plane combo is in play. But in a 1v1 engagement a plane that can nearly instantly chose to disengage/engage at any point during battle thus allowing it to continuously heal/item up until they gain an advantage; just simply isn't fun to play against. There isn't a lot of pure 1v1 duels happening right now, they just occur during other game types but I think most of you top tier miranda players would have to admit a top tier biplane/bomber/loopy/explote doesn't stand a 'remote' chance in duel vs you. It is definitely a plane that takes some mastering but now that a fair number of people are mastering it, it is becoming a pain to play anything else with the possible exception of explode when facing it. I'd be interested to see the effect of: 1. Decreased regeneration for health bot with miranda (as well as explote), 2. Instituting plane caps in some servers (2 of each plane per team(yah issue with demo players)), 3. Making a wounded plane boost slightly slower (warp slower), thus forcing it to stay engaged. Last edited by Ajplagge; 10-30-2009 at 12:17 AM.
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#11
10-30-2009, 12:14 AM
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Quote:
That said, I will agree that miranda may have an overall advantage in 1v1 scenarios, but I find it difficult to judge how significant it is. I can confidently say that it definitely is not due to the charge-warp mechanic, however. I agree that it has more to do with the mirandas unparalleled ability to evade enemies than anything; it's rare that you can force one into a disadvantageous situation which is sometimes problematic. I'm a big fan of balancing around 1v1/deathmatch since it translates over to other gametypes very well. If you boil the game down to one simple thing, dogfighting is pretty much what you're going to get. However this ends up being an interesting situation where miranda performs very well in deathmatch but due to its inability to 'chain kill' its role ends up being diminished quite a bit in objective-based gametypes. That said, its kind of a fluke case in that dogfighting balance here doesn't translate directly to tbd/ball balance, so I suppose it's up to Lam which direction he takes. I think slowing wounded planes is going to be a step in the wrong direction in most situations. Deciding when to run and how to run are both good gameplay decisions to have in a game. Some further tweaks to DM mode as a whole (perhaps disabling repair drone? This could easily be too extreme) may be worth pursuing. I personally don't believe that the situation is skewed enough for it to be a major problem, and that, as said in my post above, we haven't seen the limits of creativity. The fad of the month has changed a lot even recently as people find new tactics, so I think it may be worth seeing how this plays out given more time. Last edited by Snowsickle; 10-30-2009 at 12:24 AM.
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#12
10-30-2009, 12:23 AM
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Buffing reverse is simple - increase the speed bonus it gives the plane, both forwards and reverse. However, as I've said before, I don't really feel it needs a boost. Not that I wouldn't welcome it.
As for the rest of this thread - people will complain about absoloutely anything. I have heard almost every perk and plane be called 'overpowered' at one time or another. The fact is that in my personal experience, I see all 5 planes played successfully every day, and I don't feel intimidated by any particular plane. Balance is a very arbitrary concept that, in my mind, takes second fiddle to the question 'is it fun?' As long as there are choices that differ in any way, people will always be calling the planes that kill them overpowered. Yes, there are probably small advantages of one plane VS. another in certain situations. However, considering we're trying to balance 3 different types of 5 planes against each other all at the same time, I think the level of balance we're at is pretty good. The alternative is that we all play the exact same plane with the exact same setup, and then we'll just start arguing about lag or the map balance or some crap. Point is, you'll never have perfect balance, but as long as you're having fun the game is doing its job right, and I honestly don't see any huge imbalances in this game that stand in the way of that.
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#13
10-30-2009, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
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#14
10-30-2009, 12:52 AM
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Quote:
Anyway, I agree with you. That's the reason I wrote my mini-faq above. This game is pretty well balanced and fun to play as it is.
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#16
10-30-2009, 01:12 AM
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Nobody is complaining we are trying to have an intelligent discussion concerning the game we all love. I am not set in my opinions and am just trying to stimulate some interesting conversation, as some people here have chosen to engage in.
Snow: very good points but you've played all the planes for a significant amount of time and now chose to play trickster? I think this reinforces what i'm saying. In terms of 1v1 engagements it is impossible to argue that any plane can compete with miranda. Last night we played team death match games, one team playing a mix of all planes and one team was all mirandas. The outcome of the games was complete miranda ownage, the players involved were some of the most skilled playing the game.
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#17
10-30-2009, 01:30 AM
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Here is what I see:
Remote Mine: Slight nerf concerning ejection distance, explosion radius and damage, and increased cooldown time between exploding 1 mine and being able to eject another. Right now it seems like people are chaining mines far too easily. Miranda Laser: Slight buff in damage as well as distance. Right now it seems incredibly weak and has seemed weak since there was a nerf to it individually and then it got hit by the general miranda nerf concerning energy regen. The double nerf made it far too weak. Miranda Bouncy: For the most part I think that for 99% of players I have a positive ratio against them. However, I have played against them a ton and considering that 99% of Miranda players do the exact same one move that encompasses all players, you know the whole "I can do the warp-shot, I am awesome!" move. However, to most players this is quite devastating because if you make one wrong move to put yourself out of position then you are dead. It is a hard call, but if it does get any nerf at all I would like to see it done to the bouncy shot itself and not to the warp. This is because the warp actually requires you to be in the combat zone. The biggest problem with the bouncy shot is that it is the most high powered shot in the game (someone post if HC is more powerful) but the time on target required to hit is literally zero. At least with the HC you must commit to the combat zone if you are going to engage, which increase your time on target. However, with the Miranda you can fire, turn around and be gone. It's basically all the power with no commitment. At least with laser you must have considerable time on target to do any damage. That is why laser needs buff and bouncy may need a slight nerf. Loopy: I would love to see the tracking changed from fire then lock to lock then fire, and I know lam said he might try it, but Loopy spam will always always be annoying as long as the game has so many demo players and they are all just holding F. The game had a much different feel in beta when games were an equal mix of all planes. Thermo: This is gonna be removed (or so I assume). So this is a plea to everyone to think of a cool replacement. I do not want to see it return to "Shrapnel Rocket" (which is an increased damage, reduced knockback version of the other rockets). So please brainstorm and come up with a new thermo rocket!
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#18
10-30-2009, 01:44 AM
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I don't think anythings needs any nerfs. Ever.
This community tends to get caught up in the hype when someone gets raped by a certain plane or starts seeing more of a certain plane, then comes on the forums and says "XXX = IMBA!", as if Jesus Himself had handed them this revelation on a silver platter. Mostly this is due to the fact that our community is relatively small and is populated by a large number of demo users who don't understand how difficult it is to gain true skill in a style such as Biplane sniping or Trickster Shot/Warp. So instead of proposing a nerf, like everyone else and his neighbor's dog wants, I propose some personal growth on the part of the Altitude community. When you have a bad night and an EMP-equipped loopy or Trickster-using Miranda pwns your ass, take a step back and go over the experience in your head. Think about all the nubby mistakes YOU made. Mistakes that allowed your enemy his little spree. Then think about ways to correct your mistakes and counter that specific airplane's attacks and defenses. Then get online again the next day or night, and fight the plane again. Rinse and repeat. Pretty soon, you'll find yourself building up moves and counter-moves for everything any plane and any player can throw at you. You can kill them, escape them, score on them in Ball mode, run bomb against them, whatever your sweet little heart desires. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you, the point of games. Games aren't made so that everyone can be happy and satisfied at the end of the day. In fact, the whole point of a game is to make you want to come back for more. The sting of that last defeat will make the joy of this new victory all the better. And you can easily start enjoying every minute of this game, just like you did when it was new. All you have to do is stop complaining and start learning.
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#19
10-30-2009, 01:50 AM
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If we can throw out ideas..uhm...
Not sure if we were creating a whole new perk , or just modifying the thermo. Don't know a name for the actual perk but... edit: Diproxy? What about for the primary weapon, it could be twin rockets that go forward in a helix type shape (the missiles alternate positions as they go forward.) These missles should do a reduced amount that you can hit one rocket (that won't have the same damage and knock-back). Detonation feature would still remain, but if you explode the missles when they cross each other, as well as catching a foe in that timing of destruction, more damage and knockback will be applied due to both rockets hitting. Maybe I'm going overboard for the secondary but... Proxy mines? Only two mines can be placed at one time, the distance between these two mines will have a very fine thing "trip wire", so if foes pass this wire the mines with simultaneously explode. If mines are placed farther apart, the "wire" is not a hitbox of the explosion, only the mines would be activated. These mines will have a larger explosion range, but not a lot of damage (planning where mines can be placed can be strategical, for "doubling" the damage with close mines.) I'm sorry that all my ideas are overpowered. I'm just throwing ideas up there. This whale would work more with "doubling" damage with using two objects as well as covering more range, but for weaker damage if not doubled up. To follow up on the TF2 Heavy chaingun idea, why not Demoman it up? With your missles being mines if put into a wall, and detonate with your primary button? Last edited by Loli.ta; 10-30-2009 at 02:02 AM.
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#20
10-30-2009, 01:55 AM
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I think this dislike of trickster is coming from the amount of idiots who just bought the game and figured out that f+up is good. However these players lack the skill needed to do well on their own (And have no defining characteristics), so they hide behind their team and steal kills with the combo.
Tell me if I'm on to something here. For the explo: What about a chaingun? Kinda like the heavy in TF2.
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#21
10-30-2009, 02:17 AM
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Or hey (I'm not too sure this would be helpful, but the results would be funny!) what about... thermo mines?? Just like the remote mine but no damage, just flinging small loopies about at obscenely high velocities!!!
Super fun!
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#22
10-30-2009, 02:20 AM
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As for the thermo perk, it is just the missile that will potentially change. Don't worry about the mines. (Again, this is non-official brainstorming, but just in case it does change I want a fun option not just the same rocket except 'slightly different').
As for the bouncy miranda. The F+Up combo never really bothered me. Although it is the only true instant kill in the game (biplane still requires time to drain) at least it requires the Miranda to be in the combat area. At least it gives the other plane time to shoot back. My biggest problem with the bouncy shot has always been the whole "I can shoot at you, take 75% of your life with one shot, and never give you an opportunity to shoot back because I turned around 0.01-ms after I fired" aspect to it. Bouncy Miranda can fire at people with basically no penalty while the Laser cannot.
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#24
10-30-2009, 02:48 AM
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Lazer is too weak, and there is no good reason to use dogfighter instead of recoilless. Other than that, I think the game is well balanced.
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#25
10-30-2009, 03:01 AM
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Quote:
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#26
10-30-2009, 03:08 AM
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What is it with people and extremes?
Balance adjustments are perfectly fine as long as the changes are made as a result of real, objective analysis and aren't snap decisions and/or made to appease the community. Hell, one could argue that starcraft is still having balance adjustments made through the way maps are created so as to not cater to a certain race or playstyle. Multiplayer games are ever-changing beasts; it's pretty damn rare that you can make something and just sit back and let it succeed. Maybe you find the game in its current implementation fun, and I certainly do as well, but take a step back for a moment and realize that there are people who enjoy the game for more competitive elements than you do. If the game is not fun for those people in its current implementation, and changes can be made to cater to this audience while not simultaneously putting off the more casual players, changes should certainly be made. There is absolutely nothing wrong with striving for perfection; of course you'll never reach it, but very little succeeds with a "well this is pretty good, lets not touch it anymore in hopes that we don't ruin it" attitude. I advocate waiting to see how things pan out, not deciding that everything is and always will be 'good enough'. Quote:
I played explodet in the beginning of beta: I pushed for nerfs to it because it felt very dominant at the time. I played loopy afterwards: I pushed for nerfs to emp because I felt it was too much of an I-Win button. I played recoilless, agreed with the 4% nerf to recoilless damage at the time. I assure you I'm not in this because of any desire to be dominant through imbalance. Last edited by Snowsickle; 10-30-2009 at 03:20 AM.
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#27
10-30-2009, 06:59 AM
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I never meant to imply you want to dominate by abusing an imbalance, i just inferred from your statement about having played all the planes that there must be some reason you choose to play trickster, whether you had thought about the reason or not.
sin: Me, maimer and monxy are not "idiots who just bought the game", you're not on to something .
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#28
10-30-2009, 07:49 AM
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Sorry, I skipped some of the posts, but my general feelings are that miranda should have spam reduced as to make it harder long range for them. One full charged shot+spam kills almost anything. The warp+trickster is mostly a lag problem. Any red zone ping and you're instadead without even seeing what happened.
As for the thermo, i hope it doesn't get removed, rather make the switch for director. IMO the high damage no knock back missile should be tried, or maybe even some kind of secondary status ailment like jamming secondary fire or sth for a second or two. For the remote mine I think it should have a similar energy cap like the miranda does when fully charged, so while the mine is in play energy regenerates slower and you don't have full energy potential. Loopy I like the lock then fire idea. Bomber is fine I guess. Biplane needs another +1 attack to dogfighter, and maybe a bit reduced range on the close combat gun so you get huge damage from point blank range, the rest of the perks are fine, more and more people playing HC and showing that it's not underpowered.
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#29
10-30-2009, 11:23 AM
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and also whats up with hc? i know it does have some weak pierce, but what are the pierce stats? 2-3 planes? how much dmg do the pierce shots do?
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#32
10-30-2009, 04:15 PM
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#33
10-31-2009, 12:01 AM
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Slightly off topic but is there any way to keep track of the number of people who play certain combinations? That way it would be easy to see what plane combos no-one ever played, and so would be candidates for revamping?
Changing thermo? The director needs changes more urgently imo, as no-one plays it ever. The reason why most people play thermo is because of the missile as the mines aren't that effective. Changing the missile may result in not many people playing it at all. Miranda isn't too unbalanced. Maybe slightly decrease the charged weapon damage and increase the warp damage.
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#34
10-31-2009, 01:14 AM
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I would think the Director perk would work more with mines, as you can actually stall people, which would allow the mines to follow up. Rather than having a missile that turns a plane with no surrounding walls to crash them into, and let them get away.
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#36
10-31-2009, 03:44 AM
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Dude seriously, i mean to hit an opposition with a missile at the very point needed to slam them into a wall is a skill, it doesn't happen ALL the time {unless your name is mat :P}.
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#37
10-31-2009, 10:50 PM
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There are two environments to balance:
1. Open games and 2. Tourney games Balancing open games has to work with the fact that the majority of players are always going to be demos. And because Suppressor-Bomber is not very good, the vast majority of those players will be flying Tracker-Loopy. Right now I think the game is very well balanced with open games. In the presence of a large number of Loopies, most of the buy-plane modes work well. There is also a high skill ceiling for demo Loopies themselves... and it is quite possible for demos to win most kills, killstreak, most goals etc. This encourages more demos to play which, as much as they whine about it, is good for paying users. So the game as is, works just fine. However when you move into the tourney environment where almost nobody uses Tracker (and relatively few use Acid or Double-Fire), the balance changes. Without demo Loopies to "thin the herd," all the planes that were especially vulnerable to Loopy get a population boom. Certain varieties of Miranda and Whale are the most obvious beneficiaries. There's no way to fix that without changing the open game though. So I say, leave it as it is. Last edited by Sarah Palin; 10-31-2009 at 10:53 PM.
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#38
11-01-2009, 12:06 AM
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So you want to balance the game based on people who haven't bought the game? That doesn't sound very well thought out. The goal should be to convert these demo players to paid users, not say that we should accept that the "majority" will always be demos.
I am gonna go ahead and go on record as saying that I am going to support a time limit on the demos. If this is the prevailing attitude (read above) then we really need to start addressing it.
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#39
11-01-2009, 12:50 AM
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Letting demos play indefinitely creates a community of more users and more skilled users. This makes the game a better value for people who decide to purchase. The way the game runs now makes very good economic sense and I doubt it will change. Your attitude appears to be: tourny play (environment #2) is more important to you than open games (env #1) therefore it's bad to balance for #1. In fact, far more paying-user hours are logged in #1 games with 14 or 20 planes, usually Planeball. So it's best to balance that mode. By comparison, few paying users participate in hardcore modes like 5v5 tourney with voicechat. Your attitude also seems to be "#2 would be just the same without demos so let's throw them out." Well that's fine, except it would hurt mode #1 where most paying-users spend most of their hours. This has been gone over again and again, "F+Up = stupid," "nerf rubber hull," "nerf tracker," "throw out the demos," blah blah. Demos add to the value of the game for the same paying users who keep whining about throwing them out. That's why the game is the way it is. Last edited by Sarah Palin; 11-01-2009 at 01:14 AM.
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#40
11-01-2009, 01:13 AM
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So you think it's by deliberate design that the majority of players are demos? Do you really think it was designed so that most of the users do so for free? I would love to think that lam/karl were already millionaires prior to working this game for the past 5 years, but the reality is they would love to be able to sell it to everyone who tries it.
I think the unlimited demo was to attract people to try it. Never did anyone imagine it would get to the point it is now where demo players have put 200 or more hours into the game! You need to realize that these demo infested games are pretty horrible games for the most part. Do you think that playing with 90% demo loopys is a fun way to play? I would do anything I could to change this type of game situation and yet you want to balance the game towards it? You want to give it more credit than the actual games that are fun to play in? People play in those demo infested games because there are no other games to choose from, not by choice. So please, don't tell me that demo players add value to the game. Other than simply adding a plane other than a bot into a server, I would like to know what value you think they add. Oh, and how is it "good economic sense" to have a game that is full of people who never buy it? Am I assume that it's good to have a product that no one buys?
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Linear Mode
