Balance Discussion

[Beagle]

Originally Posted by Sarah Palin

Your attitude appears to be: tourny play (environment #2) is more important to you than open games (env #1) therefore it's bad to balance for #1.

In fact, far more paying-user hours are logged in #1 games with 14 or 20 planes, usually Planeball. So it's best to balance that mode. By comparison, few paying users participate in hardcore modes like 5v5 tourney with voicechat.

Do you have any actual recorded research to back up these claims? Your wording suggests that this is absoloute proof that people who want to play competitively don't matter so we should balance for casual games. You're missing the point, there is no need to balance for one or the other, the point is to balance for both.

Originally Posted by Sarah Palin

Demos add to the value of the game for the same paying users who keep whining about throwing them out. That's why the game is the way it is.

WA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA WAIT WHAT

The game is the way it is (unlimited demo) because Karl and Lam are some of the most genuine, generous people I've ever seen develop a game. This game has pristine production values, takes a niche and owns it, and is damn fun to play. In my honest opinion, this game is a gem, and the devs should really be rewarded for it.

Instead, we see the exact opposite. Now, I'm not saying that every demo player is a 'lost sale', just like how the truth of piracy is that every pirated copy isn't a lost sale. I'm just saying a lot of people are playing for free, who would find a way to buy the game if they were forced to. We're not playing with these people because thats the way the game has been designed, we're playing with them because the devs are generous bastards. Remember that.

[Stormich]

I'm starting to like Beagle's posts since he's adopted the no picture policy lol.
Balancing any game should start at the top since this is where people find ways to abuse what their planes do best.
Also I do think a lot of people play ball, but I still think the vast majority of those are demos since loopy is really good in ball.
EDIT: While we're on the topic of demos I agree there should be a time limit like 100 hours or so that a demo can play. Only thing that bothers me with this is that there are a couple of demo players who are really nice/good at the game. Would suck to see them leave.
How about a tourney held for demos to duke it out let's say once a month and the winner gets a full game?

[wolf'j'max]

Storm i agree with this idea but if the guy: Hartz would participate
Its end of the game for the others.

[DMCM]

Man, Hartz is amazing. probably the best loopy in the game. And one of the best demos for sure.

I'd love to see a tourney like that. That would be my only chance of buying the game, because I really can't afford it. College is waaay too expensive. I got my scholarship, but it's barely enough for transport and food. My parents alraedy paid the tuition which was 500€, just the first payment!! I can't save any money. Plus my parents are really old and they're retired. I'm pretty sure they'd freak out about buying something online. They're completely out of touch with the internet... and modern society as a whole. So I can't buy it and even if, by any chance, I could, my parents wouldn't let me anyway. I've played the demo for 300-ish hours!!! I mean... the only games I spent this much time on were Final Fantasies. That just shows how amazing Altitude is to me. I'd love to have the full game and get skilled at other planes and perks besides Loopy with Tracker and EMP, but I have no hope of ever getting the game. That's why a tournament like this would be my only option.

Edit: I wanna thank Lam and Karl for your patience with demos and I apologise for abusing your kindness, but there's ntohing I can do.

[Sarah Palin]

Other than simply adding a plane other than a bot into a server, I would like to know what value you think they add. Oh, and how is it "good economic sense" to have a game that is full of people who never buy it? Am I assume that it's good to have a product that no one buys?

Read below for a detailed explanation.

I'm just saying a lot of people are playing for free, who would find a way to buy the game if they were forced to.

Beagle, I'm certain that's true. At the same time, it's quite possible that the current situation creates MORE profit for the developers. Situations similar to this have been researched in MMORPGs. Assuming the same rules of population statistics apply to Altitude's community, it's easy to see how the current situation actually benefits the devs.

If you want a two-word explanation, the demo players provide a network externality for the game.


Longer explanation:

The devs make their income from new users that try the game and decide whether or not to buy it.

Let's imagine that some new players are "consumers." They will buy the game if they think it's worth it; otherwise they stick with the demo. Other players are "freeloaders." They will play the demo indefinitely, even if they think the game is worth it, as long as you let the demo continue.

The vast majority of demo players currently are freeloaders (but a small % are consumers who think the game isn't worth it).

Anywya, if we change the demo so it only lasts a few hours, both freeloaders and consumers will make a choice as to whether they want to buy; the people who don't think the game is worth it will quit and leave.

Simple so far.

What makes things complicated is users don't have a constant, non-varying evaluation of whether the game is worth 20$. In reality the value of an online game is an exponential function of its user base thanks to network effects. Suppose only 10 people play Altitude worldwide. Clearly the game is not worth 20$ because you'll never find a matchup. If the userbase is 100, let's say 10% of users think the game is worth buying. As the userbase grows larger and larger, a greater and greater percentage of it thinks the game is worth buying. If you chart this out, it is an exponential function (for small populations; after a certain stage the community grows so large that adding more players does not add more value for the average player, but Altitude is no where near that size).

In other words, if you shrink the community fewer people will be willing to buy the game.

Another complicating factor is that the wave of new users at any point will be a function of current population size. All new things on the Internet grow exponentially by word of mouth.

So if you shrink the community fewer people will try the game in the first place.

So now let's examine the effects of terminating the demo.

The devs will get a large lump-sum payment from all the people playing the demo currently, who think the game is worth 20$. (very good)

However, many people will also decide the game is NOT worth 20$ and leave.

The community will definitely be smaller after the "demo purge." How will the income stream be different?

-fewer people will try the game (bad)
-fewer "consumer" new-users will think the game is worth it and buy it (bad)
-some "freeloader" new-users will purchase the game when forced to (good)


It's not at all clear that these different effects add up to a net benefit for the devs over time. Throwing out people who don't think the game is worth it shrinks the community which slows its growth AND makes the game worth less to new users. In other words, the devs MAY BE better off letting freeloaders freeload, because by playing the game freeloaders are contributing to its size (that is, to its growth rate and value).

[Sarah Palin]

BTW network effects are why you constantly see internet ads for failing MMORPGS (like "Lord of the Rings Online") offering free or near-free access. It's because the MMO actually loses less money by selling you playtime at a loss (effectively paying you to play) than it would if it let the established userbase disintegrate further.

It's also why MMOs like World of Warcraft trumpet their subscription numbers when they're good, and pretend they don't have a way to measure them when they're bad.

Anyway, MMORPG economics tangent complete, back to discussing balance

[pig_bomb]

Originally Posted by Sarah Palin

back to discussing balance

Yaa as much as I and i'm sure a bunch of other people would like to argue about comparing altitude to an mmorpg i would much rather get back to ideas about balance

[Stormich]

IMO if you're gonna let the demos play indefinitely then make sure to get some adds up there so you at least get money from them seeing the add.

[GGQ]

Originally Posted by DMCM

Man, Hartz is amazing. probably the best loopy in the game. And one of the best demos for sure.

I'd love to see a tourney like that. That would be my only chance of buying the game, because I really can't afford it. College is waaay too expensive. I got my scholarship, but it's barely enough for transport and food. My parents alraedy paid the tuition which was 500€, just the first payment!! I can't save any money. Plus my parents are really old and they're retired. I'm pretty sure they'd freak out about buying something online. They're completely out of touch with the internet... and modern society as a whole. So I can't buy it and even if, by any chance, I could, my parents wouldn't let me anyway. I've played the demo for 300-ish hours!!! I mean... the only games I spent this much time on were Final Fantasies. That just shows how amazing Altitude is to me. I'd love to have the full game and get skilled at other planes and perks besides Loopy with Tracker and EMP, but I have no hope of ever getting the game. That's why a tournament like this would be my only option.

Edit: I wanna thank Lam and Karl for your patience with demos and I apologise for abusing your kindness, but there's ntohing I can do.

1) get job at McDonalds
2) work for like 3 hours
3) quit job at McDonalds
4) buy a chicken nugget meal with root beer
5) buy Altitude
6) eat chicken nuggets while playing full version of Altitude

[Beagle]

Originally Posted by Sarah Palin

Beagle, I'm certain that's true. At the same time, it's quite possible that the current situation creates MORE profit for the developers. Situations similar to this have been researched in MMORPGs. Assuming the same rules of population statistics apply to Altitude's community

Assuming the same rules of population statistics of an MMO apply to Altitude

I understand your point, and I think anyone who has considered the demo arugment has understood that point from the very beginning automatically, but that is a very verbose way to try and claim that people who don't buy the game are generating more people who will buy the game. I agree its a possible, but I don't agree that it is actually a practical here to any serious extent.