Bomber - Black Sheep?

[Swim]

I've enjoyed the pimpness of Altitude since I found the demo 3-4 odd months ago. Watching the upgrades, it seems like all of the planes have gone under severe changes EXCEPT, the Bomber. Am I off here?

Way back when the Miranda got a mega-lazer, then we tuned it down but not before we added more damage. Biplane was given more power in it's guns and so on and on and on and on and on.. Wait! There was a change in the bomber: The damage of the grenades were reduced! Hey wait now, what?why?

Do other players feel like the odds are stacked against the bomber or is it just my lack of skillz? -I've got the experience of playing for too many hours to mention without feeling really lame, to back me up there. .

Thanks

[eth]

Err.. bomber salvos can kill any plane bar explodet+HA, I'm not sure if you think that's underpowered? It's also the easiest plane to play by FAR, requiring substantially less thought on positioning and aim than other planes. If anything, it should be given some weapons/perks that scale better with skill and don't flatline at the 1 hour experience mark.

[Tank]

Yeah, bomber is easy to use, but not as good as other planes. If you are up against someone who knows how to use a randa, whale, or biplane, ur done, no matter how good u are. those other planes are harder to use, but if you figure them out, they are a lot better than others. maybe consider practicing with another plane? if you like bomber, try whale (explodet).

[Wintegral]

Originally Posted by Tank

Yeah, bomber is easy to use, but not as good as other planes. If you are up against someone who knows how to use a randa, whale, or biplane, ur done, no matter how good u are. those other planes are harder to use, but if you figure them out, they are a lot better than others. maybe consider practicing with another plane? if you like bomber, try whale (explodet).

You see, I think that's what he's talking about: if the bomber is so inherently flawed that it can never be better than the others, then something's wrong.

[NomNom]

Originally Posted by Wintegral

You see, I think that's what he's talking about: if the bomber is so inherently flawed that it can never be better than the others, then something's wrong.

It's a team game, a bomber is not a 1v1 plane, it has different purposes. The miranda is the best 1v1 plane in the game, it doesn't mean that all the other planes are flawed, they just serve different purposes and are better in different situations.

[Wintegral]

Originally Posted by NomNom

It's a team game, a bomber is not a 1v1 plane, it has different purposes. The miranda is the best 1v1 plane in the game, it doesn't mean that all the other planes are flawed, they just serve different purposes and are better in different situations.

Now forgive me, I'm one of the much-maligned steamers, but what is the Bomber's purpose? I'm genuinely curious as most people seem to see it as an inadequate plane for killing purposes.

[AtomikPi]

Originally Posted by Wintegral

Now forgive me, I'm one of the much-maligned steamers, but what is the Bomber's purpose? I'm genuinely curious as most people seem to see it as an inadequate plane for killing purposes.

The problem with the bomber is that if it were any better it would be overpowered. The trick is to make it better in the sense that the random noob will not be able to rape with it but the skill ceiling will be far higher. How that should happen, I don't know.

The bomber has a few purposes, such as controlling chokepoints and countering whales (which, as a whale, I think I'm qualified to say).

[Evan20000]

Originally Posted by Wintegral

Now forgive me, I'm one of the much-maligned steamers, but what is the Bomber's purpose? I'm genuinely curious as most people seem to see it as an inadequate plane for killing purposes.

Far from it. It just has the lowest skill ceiling.

Bomber is also one of the better planes for ratio whoring.

[NomNom]

The bomber is good for choke points and high traffic areas. The most important areas to control in a map basically. It packs a lot of punch and helps a lot with support firepower when breaking through to the enemy's base. The team that just won the Altitude pro league uses at least 1 and often 2 bombers in their 5v5 starting lineup.
However the skill that is needed to use it is considerably low, which is the main complaint.

[Harmonica]

Bomber is also very useful (but also very underplayed/undervalued) as a defensive Ball player: Only it and the Explodet can fire backwards while getting between a ball-carrier and the goal. Furthermore, the Bomber can do so from a greater range than Explodet, and it can clear the ball faster -- at least in theory.

I haven't seen anybody else actually play (or even attempt to play) a Bomber goalie, though, and my own attempts have been pretty sound failures. :-)

[NastyManatee]

The bomber is not a skill devoid plane, it just isn't a plane that's capable of many flashy moves. Getting 3 consecutive hits with the flak cannon to down a plane, for instance, is not easy, but it's no shot warp, or fancy biplane approach, or explo mine push to make you feel "pro".

The bomber is easily spammable, and was a demo plane, and as such, it has been written off by many "good" players. I typically use tyr as an example of a good bomber because his play exemplifies the fact that with a mind for positioning and timing, you can dominate choke points and totally stop team progression with a bomber (core is a place I've seen this done multiple times).

Also, for the record, the bomber did undergo a pretty serious nerf a while back when the time between nade shots was decreased dramatically to prevent unavoidable nade volleys, and the nerf resulted in more skill intensive bomber playing (you actually have to project where your opponent is going to be flying and lob a nade out there now instead of mindless fire).

Point being, bomber is fairly legit, though largely in a support role. It's sort of "mid-field": not really a plane to push the front lines with, but one you can hold advanced territory with very well. As such, it fills a niche that the other planes don't, and it definitely has it's place in altitude in its current form.

[Kuja900]

From what I hear bomber has been trouble finding its place since its conception. I would be for a complete revamp of the plane, as it stands now its balanced but with an extremely low skill ceiling but if made stronger it instantly drift into the realm of overpowered. This juggling act the devs are forced to play with the bomber is from an inherent flaw in the concept of the plane.

Note the poll results in this thread:

http://altitudegame.com/forums/showt...5702#post25702

As it stands now bombers are by far the least popular plane, something needs to change to bring it up to par with the rest in terms of skill ceilings. Easy mode simply isn't entertaining.

[Esoteric]

TLDNR: Bomber is good at low skill levels, bad at mid skill levels and good at high skill levels as a support plane.



Bomber's very much a jack-of-all-trades plane. It's a decent pusher and defender, decent skirmisher and below-average but serviceable bomber carrier. It is not specialized against stragglers (like the miranda) or groups (like the explodet) and it has average survivability.

Hard to aim weapons with long range killing power make it good, even at a low skill level, to control choke points (it's easier to aim at an area than a plane.) Right now most bombers keep at the edge of the fight, tossing nades and flak into the fray while staying clear of it. And, to be fair, it's quite good at that.

However, as people get better you'll see more and more bombers enter the midrange where aiming gains importance. That's where a good bomber hits with nades and flak but a bad one misses. Hard to aim weapons, fast turning radius and a rear-firing weapon give it a very high skill cap at mid-range in mostly open air (and a weakness until then.) High health and strong weapons give it decent close-range.

People call it a skill-less plane due to the ease with which it controls chokes and the power of spam but it gains a lot of utility at higher skill levels (which will grow as people get better. NO ONE, including me and tyr, is even close to the skill cap. And, for the record, I think that the bomber and a heavy cannon biplane are more similar in role than any other two planes.

[CCN]

Originally Posted by Esoteric

TLDNR: Bomber is good at low skill levels, bad at mid skill levels and good at high skill levels as a support plane.



Bomber's very much a jack-of-all-trades plane. It's a decent pusher and defender, decent skirmisher and below-average but serviceable bomber carrier. It is not specialized against stragglers (like the miranda) or groups (like the explodet) and it has average survivability.

Hard to aim weapons with long range killing power make it good, even at a low skill level, to control choke points (it's easier to aim at an area than a plane.) Right now most bombers keep at the edge of the fight, tossing nades and flak into the fray while staying clear of it. And, to be fair, it's quite good at that.

However, as people get better you'll see more and more bombers enter the midrange where aiming gains importance. That's where a good bomber hits with nades and flak but a bad one misses. Hard to aim weapons, fast turning radius and a rear-firing weapon give it a very high skill cap at mid-range in mostly open air (and a weakness until then.) High health and strong weapons give it decent close-range.

People call it a skill-less plane due to the ease with which it controls chokes and the power of spam but it gains a lot of utility at higher skill levels (which will grow as people get better. NO ONE, including me and tyr, is even close to the skill cap. And, for the record, I think that the bomber and a heavy cannon biplane are more similar in role than any other two planes.

but its the most boring plane in the world.
The pole backs up this statement

[Stormich]

I basically agree with what Eso said. Bomber is a really nice multipurpose plane which when played well can deny entire teams. Controlling a bomber is easy, while playing it to it's full potential demands your attention to map control and positioning which takes time to acquire. The only thing that might need a change are the dumb bombs as they don't bring much to the game.

EDIT: It's boring if you always stay in the back. Once you get that you can actually survive and win dogfights with superior position it gets a whole new model of playstyle.

[ryebone]

Try flak reverse, it'll give HC a run for its money.

[tyr]

Soooooooo many people not understanding bomber here ...

Originally Posted by eth

It's also the easiest plane to play by FAR

Originally Posted by Evan20000

It just has the lowest skill ceiling.

You guys are so wrong...
As Eso said, I don't think no one has hit the skill ceiling yet.
Potential of a caped bomber : control at least 2 chokes at the same time, being able to kill at least 1 plane trying to cross it every time, making a large amount of space behind it dangerous thus offering the possibility to your team to progress. It is dangerous trying to attack it from behind because you'll get destroyed in about 2 seconds whatever your plane is by the flak cannon. A caped bomber will basically create a dangerous zone around itself that the enemy team can only break by attacking that bomber from multiple sides at once (using covers to get near him). I let you imagine how this affects team games.

Also, spam has not only ingame effects, but psychological effects. People rage at me multiple times a day because they die from my spam, without me even being on their screen. People raging are much more likely to make mistakes.

Also, CCN, no, it's not boring, it's methodical. Not the same stuff. That poll is flawed anyway, I voted biplane obviously, but I also really like bomber.

[CCN]

Originally Posted by tyr

Soooooooo many people not understanding bomber here ...





You guys are so wrong...
As Eso said, I don't think no one has hit the skill ceiling yet.
Potential of a caped bomber : control at least 2 chokes at the same time, being able to kill at least 1 plane trying to cross it every time, making a large amount of space behind it dangerous thus offering the possibility to your team to progress. It is dangerous trying to attack it from behind because you'll get destroyed in about 2 seconds whatever your plane is by the flak cannon. A caped bomber will basically create a dangerous zone around itself that the enemy team can only break by attacking that bomber from multiple sides at once (using covers to get near him). I let you imagine how this affects team games.

Also, spam has not only ingame effects, but psychological effects. People rage at me multiple times a day because they die from my spam, without me even being on their screen. People raging are much more likely to make mistakes.

Also, CCN, no, it's not boring, it's methodical. Not the same stuff. That poll is flawed anyway, I voted biplane obviously, but I also really like bomber.

I guess as a noob bomber I dunno the higher level stuff, which may make it more methodical then boring.

[eth]

Really tyr, bomber is not the easiest plane in the game? Then please tell me which is, because I'm geniunely confused. Is miranda easier to play than bomber or what?

...

No.

Also disagree with Eso - you and tyr are about as close to the "skill ceiling" for bomber as you can get, and so are a _lot_ of other players. The only improvement you can have is general skills like flying and aiming, where yes - you aren't close to the skill ceiling(and no one will ever be unless they install an aimbot).

I'd also like to note that I wasn't saying bomber is a remotely bad plane, I was saying it's completely balanced and in line with all the others. It's just that it really doesn't require much skill at all. And just so I don't get written off as an oldschooler complaining due to demo stigma, let's pull down some reasons too:

Bomber has high health and extremely high damage output, which also splashes. Basically if you can get yourself within medium range of any plane you just demolish them, your high health ensures you're more or less guaranteed to survive(considering medium range here), and the splash means you won't really have to aim all that well because hey - even if the shots aren't direct hits, theyll still do enough damage to kill the plane. And if you happen to miss a couple of shots it's no big deal either - because you only need a couple of grenades to hit for a kill. The exception being explodet, which coincidentally is about as big as a barn door. Then there's tail gun/suppressor which I also feel are ridiculously easy to use - suppressor allows for spamming - if you miss a couple of shots, no big deal. And tail gun has the splash, which means you don't need a direct hit either. They're also in 90% of situations used when someone is(you guessed it) right up your ass, which means aiming is considerably easier than for example heavy cannon. Dumb bombs aren't even worth writing about, I don't think anyone even argues it requires any skill.

[Vania]

I agree with Eso, aiming those grenades at long distances actually takes skill.

But most people dont play bomber like that, they just spam chokepoints or fire grenades right in your face (where its impossible to miss).
A volley of grenades at super short range is the biggest source of kills for bombers in my experience, and incredibly easy to do because its the second most agile plane in the game.

So people dont get better at bomber because they dont have to, just learn a couple of easy moves and you're ready for ratiowhoring.

[tyr]

What is the easiest plane ?
I'm not sure, but it clearly isn't bomber. Obviously I am right since pretty much no one even realizes why it's not an easy plane except two of the best bomber players in the game. Let me just take a quick example, referring to our match this sunday : you played bomber on middleground for a while eth. Well, quite frankly, while I respect you and think that you're one of the best players in this game right now, you were not scary at all for me as a bomber. When I play and Eso is in the opposing team playing as a bomber, I already know that this won't be easy.
As for the easiest plane ... I'm really not sure. I would tend to say loopy or miranda but I don't play these planes enough to truly tell.

Bomber has indeed high health, but high health is important for the role a bomber has : it's fat, it's slow, and is a support plane. As such, it can easily be on the front line of an attack, like an explodet. Explodets and bombers have many common points in my mind. Explodet is also very methodical, especially if you play director or thermo (remote mines make it much more "active").
So yeah, while a good bomber creates a "dangerous zone" all around him as I explained in the post above, a good bomber will also push towards the enemy base and take advanced positions to support his team at the best of his abilities.

And please stop talking about splash as totally imba. I challenge you to find ANYONE who can aim his grenades to detonate at a precise spot without preliminary practice. If two planes are on top of each other, grenades do indeed splash damage, and rightfully so. If more than one guy is caught in the same unauthorized space as another plane, I don't see why he wouldnt be damaged either. It's not like he'll die, unless he's already damaged.
Also, flak is even a better example. You say you don't have to hit to do damage. Well, if you miss, you don't do damage. How many times loopies killed me because I missed a couple of flak shots.
I guess supressor is indeed easier to use but it does less damage so it compensates a bit, plus you can avoid it completely by flying higher than the bomber.

As I said in my first post, at this time, most people just don't understand how bomber works, and think it's an easy plane because when they use it in pubs, they just aim at chokes and get kills. This is indeed a part of the bomber, but that's only a small part of the bomber.

[eth]

I find it slightly funny that you weren't the least afraid of me even though I had more kills than you did. Guess I'm just that bad.

The only element you say the bomber has is taking "advanced positions" and creating danger zones. I mean come on man, that has _nothing_ to do with the skill ceiling for the plane itself. As you say yourself it creates a danger zone(doesn't any plane? really?) just by being there.. and I guess there is some skill to knowing where to be at what time, but I'd say thats more of a general skill than a BOMBER skill. Advanced positions the same, nothing to do specifically with the bomber.

Tell me how use of tailgun, grenades and dumb bombs can be advanced and highly sophisticated and I will back off, but until then..

[tyr]

We both know that kills don't mean anything in competitive 5v5.
Actually I don't even look at the scores while playing 5v5.

Well then tell me an advanced use of loopy missiles/emp/acid other than respectively damage people/make people easier to kill and less effective overall/damage and more fragile
Honestly it's exactly the same stuff. I don't understand loopy as much as you do so what I said will probably make you make a face looking like this : D: but it's the same stuff with bomber, or any other plane.

[eth]

Great, lets just invalidate the fact that a non-bomber user got an absurd amount of kills during a league game - it has nothing to do with the game since kills don't mean anything.

Give me a break man.

As for Loopy, it's not really a sophisticated use of weapons, but the rather massive disadvantage of having absolutely no health at all, which is in addition to general skills the main thing that makes loopy hard to master. Other than that, it's probably the easiest plane to learn after bomber - because surprise! bomber has no particular disadvantage. Massive damage, high survivability, good agility. There's nothing to really overcome or master.

Stupid plane, tell me why bomber has such a high skillcap compared to other planes please.

[GGQ]

It's easy to be a decent bomber, as many have pointed out; it's probably easier to be a decent bomber than decent with any other plane, except maybe loopy.

But I do agree with Tyr and Eso that a decent bomber is not even near the full potential of the plane. A great bomber is much more effective than a decent bomber, it's just less obvious than the difference between, say, a great miranda and a decent miranda.

-edit because eth posted while I was typing:

Great, lets just invalidate the fact that a non-bomber user got an absurd amount of kills during a league game - it has nothing to do with the game since kills don't mean anything.

Give me a break man.

Number of kills really doesn't mean a lot during a league game. It's when and where the kills happen that's important. Everyone knows that the bomber is easy to ratio-whore with. Tyr and Eso have both acknowledged that. What they're saying, and what you seem to be missing, is that ratio-whoring with the bomber is not very helpful for your team, and the bomber is capable of being a lot more helpful than that.

-edit #2 because I forgot to address the original topic; bomber is balanced as it is, though I and many others would like to see dumb bombs replaced with something more interesting and widely useful

[tyr]

You answered your question in your own post.

Because it's not ALL about kills. You're probably right saying that knowing when to push/retreat/take good position and stuff is more of a general skill than a skill with a particular plane but because bomber is slow, like explodet, you have to make choices while crossing a dangerous zone for instance, like should I try to change my angle just a little bit to throw two grenades in that direction, should I slow down a bit to get an opportunity, etc ... If you just cross that dangerous zone in 0.3 seconds you don't have to make that kind of choice, but while it's not the most important, it still makes a slight difference between a good bomber and an average one.
Also because bombers firing pattern is very special (especially grenades), getting the best angle while turning is kinda hard. You can often see my firing while flying upside down, just because I want a particular angle. And in general, just getting a particular angle to hit stuff behind a cover is just extremely hard, but possible.
Also, while talking about that, if bomber is so easy, why am I the only one (or maybe Eso as well, I dunno) to use some of the spam patterns on some maps that no one else uses, even though it's obviously really effective ? Talking about spam, I discover new spam patterns on maps we all play everyday multiple times - every few days.
Also, as I already said, mastering flak cannon is just hard. Even if you get a good amount of kills with it, it doesnt mean you mastered it. I personally know I'm really far from it.

So yeah ..

As GGQ said, it's indeed easy to camp on a precise spot near your base with every plane and just kill what crosses the choke, and it's the easiest with bomber. But doing that while attacking is much harder.

[eth]

#1 No it's obviously not all about kills. I didn't circle in the choke and spam - I played the map and got more kills than you did, which goes to prove my point: bomber is too easy to master. Are you seriously trying to say I was ratio-whoring in a league game?

#2 I'm talking about the particular skill ceiling for bomber - NOT. GENERAL. SKILLS. Those can be endlessly worked on and not mastered. Aiming is a skill shared between all planes, but bomber(and loopy) has it so that the skill ceiling for this particular skill is so, so much lower than any other plane. Tell me aiming bomber grenades is harder than any biplane, miranda or explodet weapon - it's not. Another general skill you talk about is being in the right spot etc - yes this is important, and it's also a skill shared between all planes. AND YET AGAIN - bomber has it easier with this skill because of its high health.

#3 I'm giving out the same reasons in post after post man. Can you like post some reasons and disprove of my arguments why bomber has a low skill-ceiling please? I haven't even mentioned ratio-whoring, yet that's what you go after! Is "spam patterns" it? Like, really? On Cave you circle the same rocks every single time, is that really something you attribute as a "skill"? Because I'm sure not.

In fact, if "spam patterns" is the bomber skill, let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Stupid plane.

[Esoteric]

Before I elaborate I'd again like to stress that bomber can be relatively effective at long and short ranges with relatively little skill. I'm not disputing that. Tyr has made other points about holding large areas rather than small ones which are valid, but frankly I'm bad at the gamesense thing, leave that argument with him. What I'm saying is that the mid range is where bomber has lots of room to grow.

Point 1: Grenades at mid-range are difficult to aim.

Fast, straight weapons: Biplane Primary/Heavy Cannon, Charge Shot
Point blank weapons: Miranda Warp, Biplane Secondary
Large explosive weapons: Explodet Primary, Loopy Secondary, Explodet Mines

A middle-speed, curving weapon at mid-range is not harder to aim than these weapons? How often do you see a bomber chain 4 hits on a biplane when both are on the same screen and not right next to each other (ie: mid range)? Compared to, say, heavy cannon which goes fast and straight it's hell hitting with all your nades. The only weapons not on the above list are laser, dumb bombs and remote mine. You can make your own decisions about them.

Point 2: Rebuttal: 'Plane specific skills'

I don't understand the purpose of this division, as it seems an arbitrary one. I agree insofar as the Miranda rev/warp/anchor and mine placing/jumping are non-transferable skills. I disagree that they are the only skills that are worth noting. Beyond Miranda and Explodet we're left with the questionably difficult recoil for biplane and flak boost for bomber--I don't see either as providing much in the way of challenge. Every other skill we can put into the aiming or flying categories which are, unlike your implications, not instantly transfered. I agree that they are adaptable.

Point 3: Rebuttal: 'but I'm not experienced with bomber and I did well so bomber is skill-less'

Players like Zidane or Eth doing well with bomber is hardly proof that bomber is skill-less. Those two are great players who play multiple planes and will do well with any plane. Additionally, many planes have zones where they are exceptionally effective regardless of skill. I'm sure you've all joined me in being vultured by hold f loopies, smashed into walls by bumbling explodet's point-blank mines or double-tapped by a cruising heavy cannon rookie while you were stalled. Bomber has that advantage with spam and holding chokes. Further, I never play trickster and very seldom loopy or recoilless and still do well with them. Are you prepared to put them in the skill-less category as well?

Point 4: Proof is in the pudding.

To back up my argument I invite you to join me in a free-for-all or demolition match. These are all formats where mid-range combat means more than long-range, and all formats where I, not coincidentally, am in my element. I've lost exactly one ffa in the last 6 months while using flak and played dozens. I'm one of the top demolition players. And, before you say it, if these were skill-less formats then you would do just as well as me in them bomber versus bomber. If the bomber had purely transferable skills then all of the very top players would be able to beat me.

Or, alternatively, if there's anyone who never plays bomber but thinks they could beat my trickster in any non-ffa format I welcome the challenge, and I only exclude ffa due to miranda's weakness there. I've literally only played trickster while randoming, so someone with similarly little bomber experience should crush me since so little skill is transfered to trickster.

[Sarah Palin]

Originally Posted by Vania

I agree with Eso, aiming those grenades at long distances actually takes skill.

It takes rote skill, not dynamic skill.

Rote skill is memorization of maneuvers, dynamic skill is reacting to situations.

Let me say upfront rote skill can be crucial to winning. But, when people talk about "skill cap" or how skillful a player is, they usually mean how good he is in dynamic unpredictable situations.

As an example, many people learn the trick-lob points on Core, Cave, etc by practicing on empty servers. This is a useful rote skill. Learning to bomb the way BG1 does it is something entirely different.

Many planes have rote "indirect fire" maneuevers. Examples:

1. Loopymissile - pro loopies can put a volley in any choke from offscreen.

2. Acid - keeping 2-3 passages perpetually acided dead center.

3. Rocket - "rotate and fire" maneuver, especially on Lost City, Middleground, Cave etc (and know exactly where their missile is even when it's offscreen so they can detonate it in an offscreen choke).

4. Grenades - putting a nade volley in any choke from offscreen.



But these rote maneuvers aren't the peak of skillful play. Loopy really does not get its bars from indirect fire (I promise) and splodet certainly doesn't. But bomber really does get gold by making sure offscreen chokes are impassable.

What is the easiest plane ?

I will admit with no shame that Loopy is the #1 plane if you want to learn something quickly and be good at it quickly.

However I think Loopy has more and more to uncover the better you become.

Aiming with Doublefire or Acid is probably easier than any other plane, yet aiming is probably 10% of Loopy play.

[Esoteric]

Sarah Palin: Aiming at planes in the mid range is not a "rote" skill. Planes are "dynamic" and thus aiming at them is as well. Vania specified that he meant aiming at planes, not at chokepoints. If anticipating and correcting for enemy plane's movement isn't a dynamic skill --especially in the context of a larger engagement, then nothing is.

[Sarah Palin]

Yes, we're talking about two different things.

But Tyr's first post (potential play at the bomber skill ceiling) was "I can spam two chokepoints at the same time," ok sure, but this is the skill ceiling? really?

In the few games I have played against pro bombers like Tyr they have generally got most of their kills and bars exactly this way btw. That is, from offscreen fire hitting chokepoints - with great accuracy, granted, which takes lots of practice, but it's not really different from the spam patterns that Loopies and Explodets also perfect (I guess it's mildly harder since the grenade curves). Yet Loopies & whales have so much more in their playstyle. A "highlight video" of loopy or whale wouldn't focus on spam, it would be about Loopy's awesome dogfighting and EMP powers, and all the tricks splodet can do with mine and rocket.

Tyr's bomber is a beast btw. Just because it's a "spam pattern" doesn't mean it's not horribly efficient.

[tyr]

It's more about knowing when and where and how to spam to maximize your energy effectiveness that makes that difference between basic spam and advanced spam, but Eso is also right. Shooting at moving targets in sight is definitely another type of skill which is far from mastered yet.
I included "masterization" of this in that description I made thinking it was obvious when I talked about that large immediate dangerous zone around the bomber. Someone said "yeah every plane has that", except this time it's very large (like the range of the grenades), which makes bomber perfect for map control. Obviously, if someone comes closer (mid-range) to you, you must be able to quickly destroy him as well, and this is what Eso is talking about.