Shield + Remote Mine

[nesnl]

These are partly two different suggestions, but they overlap a little so I figure I would include them in the same post.

First, I will start with the Remote Mine. I think that in it's current form it is not balanced very well. The problem stems from the fact that the person doesn't have to be accurate at all and the closer you get to the explodet, the worse this problem becomes. It is kind of a problem of "if you are in this general area you are screwed no matter what." Now, this is also the same idea behind the explodet rocket, but it is different because as someone gets closer to an explodet when it fires its rocket the explodet ends up negatively affecting itself by slowing its speed down through the rocket explosions. But on the remote mine it gets a positive effect by both hitting the enemy plane and getting a speed boost from the mine. This problem is also present when the user has a shield (which is why these topics are combined) as the explodet can still detonate the mine after it has been shielded and continue to knockback and damage a shield user. Combine this with the mine's zero cooldown time and zero launch to detonate cooldown time and it results in chain mining, which in the end is not a very fun game mechanic to play against.

So here is my list of possible changes to the remote mine that would make it more balanced. I don't think all the changes need to happen, but I think that maybe a combination of a few of them would work:

• Reduce the mine's ejection distance from the plane to zero so that if the explodet drops a mine and explodes it instantly it will be right under their plane.
• Introduce a cooldown whereby the explodet can only detonate the mine after a small time has elasped since it was put on the field of play.
• Reduce the explosion radius and/or damage that the mine does.
• Increase the damage and knockback effect that the remote mine does to the mine's owner.
• Make the mine so that it will only detonate when it is user activated and not when someone runs into it.

This brings us to the issue of the shield powerup. I think that the problem of taking damage from shielded shots was really highlighted when the remote mine became popular. There is nothing more frustrating or annoying than having a shield rendered useless by an explodet merely chain spamming remote mines in your general direction. However, to fix this problem I think that the issue should be addressed for all weapons and not just the remote mine.

Here is what I think should happen with the shield regardless of what changes are made to remote mine:

• Make it so that all weapons that are shielded can no longer do damage or cause knockback effects to the shield owner.
• The list includes Explodet rockets, mines, and remote mines. Bomber Bombs, Grenades, and Flak Tailgun.
• Another possible change would be to change it so that explodet missiles and remote mines lose the ability to be detonated by the original owner once they are shielded. So if you shoot a rocket and it is shielded and you press F again it would mean you shoot another rocket while the other one is still active.

These changes would help make the shield feel more consistent rather than feel like it is worthless at times.

Anyway, thoughts/comments welcome.

[Esoteric]

I wholeheartedly agree. Right now you don't even get to feel nervous when you're behind an explodet--you just feel walls.

[Flyngbanana]

As an explo user I do feel that remote mine is overpowered, so nerfing it is fine with me. However, please don't reduce its ability to effectively combat planes from the rear too much. Its why most people play remote - the missile doesn't do much damage at all.

I'd support a small cooldown delay on the remote mines being ejected.

The main reason why I switched over to remote mine from thermo was its ability to not be completely destroyed by a shield. With thermo you can practically do nothing to stop someone with minimal skill from destroying you; you're a sitting duck with no effective weapons to combat them. As the slowest plane you can't even escape.

[eth]

Agreed that remote can be a bit ridiculous, but buffing the shield is a no-no. If it got buffed to stopping knockback, it'd be 99% impossible to stop a base push in TBD.

[protest boy]

I wouldn't mess with the ejection distance. I'm sure you remember when the explodet had a zero-ejection distance on regular mines. It didn't 'feel' right and wasn't fun to use.

I don't think much needs to be changed with remote mine. It was too weak before the buff, and is too strong now. Somewhere in between would be fine. I think the radius, knockback, and maybe damage were all increased with the buff. Just cut it back a bit and it will be perfect.

[Harmonica]

I like each of the suggestions you posted. I also agree that remote mine is overpowered, particularly against shield and very close opponents.

Some additional possibilities to add to the mix:

• Deploy mines slightly off-center from the Explodet's direction, such that an immediate explosion would send it spiraling off in a less-desirable direction.
• Make the damage/effects to the Explodet on bouncy servers match those on normal servers. (Subjectively, it seems as though bouncy servers yield much smoother, lower-damage boosts from mine-jumping. On a quick/unscientific test, I could self-juggle with the ground/walls about 3x longer on a bouncy server than normal.)
• Replace some of the mine's damage with a mild, short-range EMP effect.

[Snowsickle]

Honestly I'm not a fan of the impact that remote mines have had on the game. It isn't actually being used as a remote mine at all - it is essentially a rapid fire explosion that comes out of the back of your plane. People rarely detonate it remotely - they just press D rapidly if anyone happens to be behind them. There is little aiming required; with the director you at least have to anticipate a planes path and attempt to orient yourself to put the mine in that path. Overall I think the remote mine dumbs down the explodet a good deal while making it more effective.

I'm a fan of either:

• Reducing the refire rate on remote mine (such that it isn't a spammable weapon - I was under the impression that the advantage of director mines was that you could have multiple mines out at once, but that doesn't really matter when remotes can be rapid fired.)
• Adding a delay to remote mines so that they can't be immediately detonated

to make remote mine and director a little more even in the realm of skill requirement to reward.

Make it so that all weapons that are shielded can no longer do damage or cause knockback effects to the shield owner.

We don't often agree on things but I've been advocating this for a very long time and agree 100%. Spamming things into a shield - bomber bombs, flak, whatever - should never be beneficial to a player. It's a form of rewarding people for being completely outplayed.

Agreed that remote can be a bit ridiculous, but buffing the shield is a no-no. If it got buffed to stopping knockback, it'd be 99% impossible to stop a base push in TBD.

The fact that a single plane spamming one button with little to no aiming can stop several people working together effectively is a great argument as to why this situation is dumb.

League play would survive, people would adapt and learn to detonate their mines before they get shielded instead of merely flailing around on their D button and relying on an imbalanced mechanic.

[Vi*]

I agree with Snow that cooldown is the way to go. I vote for can't explode a mine just after laying it, which would also fix the hold-d-to-boost problem.
Also, this:

Originally Posted by nesnl

[*]Make the mine so that it will only detonate when it is user activated and not when someone runs into it.

I WANT this, as a remote-mine player. I hate when I try to manually detonate a mine when someone's real close to it, only to find out that it automatically detonated, and instead I just placed another mine into a wall and killed myself.

As for shield, I agree that for TBD teamwork the suggested changes would be good, but in 1-on-1 situations and in the rest of the modes it would just be frustrating to be completely ****ed as a 'det player every time someone picks up a shield, and powerups are too common in most maps IMO. Unlike other planes, 'det can't easily maneuver around the shield, but with how things currently are it balances out. Maybe if shield shielded the explosion a bit without completely nullifying it.

[nesnl]

The shield already does dampen the effects of weapons as long as they were shielded before they were exploded (such as mines, rockets, grenades). All the shield does is switch ownership of the projectile. So in the case of a mine, when a person shields it and then the explodet explodes it, the effect is the same damage/knockback that the original explodet would have received if they had exploded it near themselves.

Basically, what people do is explode things right when it's hitting the shield. That way if it has already hit or not they are still going to affect the user with the shield. I am glad that Snow agrees with me on this because he said it best when you are rewarding people for being completely outplayed. The shield is supposed to be an advantage and remember that it is only covering a small portion, about 60 degrees, in front of your plane. I am sure everyone can figure out other ways to deal with people who have shields other than complain about a broken game mechanic and insist they should still be able to effectively "shoot through the shield."

[innerlyte]

I think the vast majority of players would agree that remote mine is OP, so some type of nerf is probably in order. At the moment, I'm mostly concerned with the second point Maimer made about mines and shield behavior. As Eso already alluded to, chasing down a remote mine explodet with a shield is pretty much the same as doing so without a shield. This can be extremely frustrating. Close combat is pretty essential for the smaller, more agile planes that have less health. When a remote mine explodet can lay down a few mines to deter an oncoming attacker, more often than not, I've found my biplane or loopy plastered on the wall while the more robust explodet coasts to safety. If the knockback or damage to the shield user were lessened even a little, I think this would be a positive change. People should be rewarded for good (shield) tactics. If remote users are concerned about being rendered completely ineffective by a shield "buff," they can manually detonate the mine before it's shielded. Thermo and Director explodets are already mostly ineffective against a rear attacking shield (as is virtually every other plane combination in the game), so Remote would still have an advantage. In terms of guarding against this type of shield in team games -- lay down a wall or attack from another angle. Anyway, not a whole lot new to say, but I wanted to throw in my support for this type of change.

[Evan20000]

Originally Posted by eth

Agreed that remote can be a bit ridiculous, but buffing the shield is a no-no. If it got buffed to stopping knockback, it'd be 99% impossible to stop a base push in TBD.

As long as it would still be possible to get "inside" the shield, I think it would be okay.

I'm up for the preposed nerfs and buffs.

[Vi*]

Ah. If we're talking about having already-shielded things not damage the shielder, rather than sheilding the shielder from the blast of everything in front of the shield, then I agree.

[Fartface]

To tell you the truth, I think the remote mine should be kept the same way it is. I mean, it seems to me that planes like miranda and bomber can easily destroy the explodet with one load of shots. If the remote mine was made less powerful, then I think the explodet would lose its main purpose (to direct the action) and then people would hardly ever play as it.

[hurripilot]

What Remote needs is an ROF (Rate of Fire) nerf. A Remote user can just shoot and shoot and shoot until the enemy is completely out of control and helpless, and it's damn near impossible to escape that. If a Remote Explo gets its ass or face anywhere near you, it's lights out unless you happen to be far enough away to run like hell without being blasted into a wall. Also, a Remote user can have this effect on not just one, but as many as 3 or 4 different enemies. The missile and mine do a lot of damage and have a great deal of knock-back effect, and the amount of damage and knock-back is not reduced by distance from the blast. In other words, if you are even at the most extreme range of the weapon, you get the full effect of it. If you want this to remain (which it seems people do) then you need to slow Remote's ROF way down.

[Loli.ta]

I actually don't mind getting a nerf on the Remo. The rockets in my opinion aren't for damage at all...I take that back. I don't think any explodet has a huge damage attack, missiles and mines are used to completely stall, direct, veer foe planes into walls. You technically have a remote mine in your missile, and you use it a lot.

I just want to clarify, even with the nerfs spitting out a mine on another plane still detonates the mines right? (If this doesn't stay, lol Explodets are useless.)

[Snowsickle]

Originally Posted by Fartface

To tell you the truth, I think the remote mine should be kept the same way it is. I mean, it seems to me that planes like miranda and bomber can easily destroy the explodet with one load of shots. If the remote mine was made less powerful, then I think the explodet would lose its main purpose (to direct the action) and then people would hardly ever play as it.

It's possible for a plane to have an overpowered weapon without being overpowered as a whole. I am fully in favor of making the explodet more rocket-oriented than it is now; it really seems to me that being able to aim a rocket well is a lost art when people can just fly up close and mash their D button.

Few people that are around right now actually played the old version of altitude but in that instance of the game, the explodet was a largely rocket based long range plane which used mines to attempt to guide opponents into flying in more predictable paths. I much preferred that to the route remote mine has taken, which I feel has oversimplified the plane and completely redefined its playstyle (from a long range artillery/precision plane to a short range 'hit D a lot and cause lots of explosions' plane). It's pretty much the only plane that I feel has gone backwards since original altitude - biplane, miranda, loopy, and bomber have all come a long way.

[matattack]

ok fine I'll be honest..
Being a fairly experienced explodet player, one thing that I strongly believe needs a nerf is the size of the explosion. I honestly think that this plane is too easy to aim both rockets and mines. The size should shrink (twss) and the accuracy of the explodet mine and rocket should be the main factor as to how much damage it does. The closer you time your mine and closer you lay it towards your opponent should increase your damage. The knockback should also factor in more to the accuracy of the player. This would promote better gameplay for a more balanced match. And ok fine..add some cooldown

as for the shield thing, I think it should still have some knockback, but possibly not as much? That might just make the explodet built as a straight up bomb blocker rather than using some sort of defensive mechanism.

[Vi*]

Originally Posted by Snowsickle

Few people that are around right now actually played the old version of altitude but in that instance of the game, the explodet was a largely rocket based long range plane which used mines to attempt to guide opponents into flying in more predictable paths. I much preferred that to the route remote mine has taken, which I feel has oversimplified the plane and completely redefined its playstyle (from a long range artillery/precision plane to a short range 'hit D a lot and cause lots of explosions' plane). It's pretty much the only plane that I feel has gone backwards since original altitude - biplane, miranda, loopy, and bomber have all come a long way.

Well, in old alt you could actually see where the **** your rocket was going. The game view was wider plus you had arrows showing where people were. Now, by the time you see someone and get a rocket out, they're already in your face or gone again, or else you're shooting blindly in hopes that an opponent will come into view near your rocket.

What if remote got a nerf, but rockets went faster?

Nerfing damage radius is a super bad idea because that makes it even more of a spit-it-out-on-top-of-someone weapon, rather than a don't-try-to-fly-this-way-or-you're-****ed-oh-look-that's-my-rocket-in-your-face weapon.

Mine cooldown and faster rockets, imo.

[Snowsickle]

Originally Posted by Vi*

Well, in old alt you could actually see where the **** your rocket was going. The game view was wider plus you had arrows showing where people were. Now, by the time you see someone and get a rocket out, they're already in your face or gone again, or else you're shooting blindly in hopes that an opponent will come into view near your rocket.

What if remote got a nerf, but rockets went faster?

Nerfing damage radius is a super bad idea because that makes it even more of a spit-it-out-on-top-of-someone weapon, rather than a don't-try-to-fly-this-way-or-you're-****ed-oh-look-that's-my-rocket-in-your-face weapon.

Mine cooldown and faster rockets, imo.

This is exactly what I was getting at when I said I was in favor of making the plane more rocket oriented.

[Vi*]

Originally Posted by Snowsickle

This is exactly what I was getting at when I said I was in favor of making the plane more rocket oriented.

We are in perfect agreement. I was getting into specifics on how to make the plane more rocket oriented. Rather than changing damage or radius on director rockets, I'd like to see speed. Thermo should be something else entirely from both that and what it is now.

[Tank]

I think that being able to detonate the mine after it hist the shield is kind of dumb, when oyu think a bout it, but I like being able to. I see it as a strategy to get an edge on an unsespecting enemy they think they're safe with their shield, and then BOOM, ur done.

[Flyngbanana]

I'd be happy to see a more rocket orientated plane. Often I just turn around and remote mine an enemy instead of engaging them head on, just because rocket damage makes me sad at how little I feel it does compared to a mine.

[GoldenBoy]

I think that is a little bit strong but that is not the reason to reduce the damage of mines if you know how to play against exploder you can kill him even if mine is 2 times stronger so sry i dont agree

[Bukem]

The mine boost is another problem with remote- especially in tbd I feel it really makes thermo and director obsolete. With a neutral bomb there's plenty of times you find yourself on your own protecting the bomb site when it spawns. And now you can do loopy-esque bomb lobs with a whale :\ For example, I just hit 2 out of 2 bombs on middleground in my whale without even crossing that rock bit before the base. It's easily the most op thing in the game by a wide margin.

[VeRiTaS]

Nesnl I totally aggre with you about the shield...It should be reduced.
BUT as I have recently becomed a explo user and have expirienced it as a user and the one who gets the mine into his face, I dont aggre at almoast any of your points. Reduce its damage NOT at all - if it gets reduced then explo will be left with almoast nothing its mines are the strongest side rockets are not so strong almoast not at all its the slowest plane so my point is that it would be rlly lame if the dmg of remote mine gets reduced.This explanation can be taken for the radius of the explosion too! (as a NO to it)
If that hapends then it would be fair and logical to reduce Heavy Canon damage, Flak tailgun and mirandas ball.
So I hope you get the point.
Reduce the distance from the planes ejection dont aggre. Example loopy sticks to your a** and what can you do throw a mine at him.But if the distance gets reduced then most probably will damage alot your self too and probably get killed but if you do not do so you will get killed by the loopy on your a**.This example can be for the cooldown also!

So Nesnl I hope that you will understand why I dont aggre with this and probably alot of people don't aggre also. people who didnt post here yet, people who dont reed the forums or so.

[Vania]

A cooldown/arming time before being able to detonate seems to be the best solution.

Also, why are explos able to detonate missiles and mines after they die? Doesnt make sense, its not fair.

[Vi*]

Originally Posted by Vania

A cooldown/arming time before being able to detonate seems to be the best solution.

Also, why are explos able to detonate missiles and mines after they die? Doesnt make sense, its not fair.

Other planes' weapons still work after they're dead, also. Just pretend for a moment that the players of this game aren't actually in the aircraft, but are controlling it remotely.

[mutra]

Originally Posted by nesnl

These are partly two different suggestions, but they overlap a little so I figure I would include them in the same post.

First, I will start with the Remote Mine. I think that in it's current form it is not balanced very well. The problem stems from the fact that the person doesn't have to be accurate at all and the closer you get to the explodet, the worse this problem becomes. It is kind of a problem of "if you are in this general area you are screwed no matter what." Now, this is also the same idea behind the explodet rocket, but it is different because as someone gets closer to an explodet when it fires its rocket the explodet ends up negatively affecting itself by slowing its speed down through the rocket explosions. But on the remote mine it gets a positive effect by both hitting the enemy plane and getting a speed boost from the mine. This problem is also present when the user has a shield (which is why these topics are combined) as the explodet can still detonate the mine after it has been shielded and continue to knockback and damage a shield user. Combine this with the mine's zero cooldown time and zero launch to detonate cooldown time and it results in chain mining, which in the end is not a very fun game mechanic to play against.

So here is my list of possible changes to the remote mine that would make it more balanced. I don't think all the changes need to happen, but I think that maybe a combination of a few of them would work:

• Reduce the mine's ejection distance from the plane to zero so that if the explodet drops a mine and explodes it instantly it will be right under their plane.
• Introduce a cooldown whereby the explodet can only detonate the mine after a small time has elasped since it was put on the field of play.
• Reduce the explosion radius and/or damage that the mine does.
• Increase the damage and knockback effect that the remote mine does to the mine's owner.
• Make the mine so that it will only detonate when it is user activated and not when someone runs into it.

This brings us to the issue of the shield powerup. I think that the problem of taking damage from shielded shots was really highlighted when the remote mine became popular. There is nothing more frustrating or annoying than having a shield rendered useless by an explodet merely chain spamming remote mines in your general direction. However, to fix this problem I think that the issue should be addressed for all weapons and not just the remote mine.

Here is what I think should happen with the shield regardless of what changes are made to remote mine:

• Make it so that all weapons that are shielded can no longer do damage or cause knockback effects to the shield owner.
• The list includes Explodet rockets, mines, and remote mines. Bomber Bombs, Grenades, and Flak Tailgun.
• Another possible change would be to change it so that explodet missiles and remote mines lose the ability to be detonated by the original owner once they are shielded. So if you shoot a rocket and it is shielded and you press F again it would mean you shoot another rocket while the other one is still active.

These changes would help make the shield feel more consistent rather than feel like it is worthless at times.

Anyway, thoughts/comments welcome.

I like these! I hope they put these babies to law!

[mutra]

I actually think that when the explodet dies, so should the mines that were theirs.

[Vania]

Other planes' weapons still work after they're dead, also. Just pretend for a moment that the players of this game aren't actually in the aircraft, but are controlling it remotely.

What??? No way Vi!
I'm right there in the cockpit, the plane cricking and cracking like a ****ing X-Wing. I'm trying to see through the thick black smoke and shattered glass, sparks flying out of the control panel keep setting my jacket on fire...
good thing I have my googles on...

[Ferret]

Didn't read everything but yes remote mine is overpowered, spammy and obviously not working as intended. So is the uncharged miranda shot. I'd go on but reasoning doesn't matter, just numbers, so here's my +1.